An Open Letter to the Owners of SH

14 Oct 2008

An Open Letter to the Owners of SH
Dear Owners,
The recent problems with the site, especially the Chatrooms is making our SH Community a laughing stock.
Whilst we all appreciate that hardware does fail, software has glitches and broadband connections have a life of their own. These problems are occurring with increasing frequency and as paying customers for the service, we do expect either a reliable stable service or when problems are experienced a reasonable feedback on when service will be restored.
The payment for access / service constitutes a contract between SH and it’s customers and we are not currently getting this service on a regular and stable basis.
We understand that server hosting is provided for SH by a ‘Third-party’ provider. This service and support is obviously below par and the current service provision agreement with them needs to be reviewed in the light of the current problems. With a site like SH it required 24x7 support and a defined time-to-fix. As there is no direct way of reporting problems via Admin to the ‘hoster’ they need to provide active systems monitoring to identify and alert support when problems occur. This is a responsibility of the SH owners to put in place with your providers.
If the problems are generated by software changes by the site programming team, then there is obviously a fundamental business systems problem that allows defective programming to be released to a production server and it is again the responsibility of the owners to provide a proper process to alleviate this from happening and disrupting the chargeable service.
Having watched the vitriol from some users towards both Room Ops and Mods, these volunteers with soon resign having ‘had enough’, the paying customers will search for other sites which provide a stable service and move. The nett result will be reducing revenue, less money for site development, more problems and ultimately a business failure (which none of us want!).
Please take note – DO SOMETHING and keep the CUSTOMERS informed. A lot of us are very loyal to SH and been members for many happy years and hopefully for many more.
“It takes years to build a reputation – it takes seconds to undo it “

14 Oct 2008

It's been here years... and will continue to go on for years.

14 Oct 2008

I think it is a very fair post, but please don't turn this thread into a 'chatroom not working' whinge or a 'stop moaning about the chatroom' whinge.
This post is without malice and is very clear how a lot of members feel and doesn't need belittling in any way.
Mal
wink

14 Oct 2008

Quote by Mal
I think it is a very fair post, but please don't turn this thread into a 'chatroom not working' whinge or a 'stop moaning about the chatroom' whinge.
This post is without malice and is very clear how a lot of members feel and doesn't need belittling in any way.
Mal

:thumbup:

14 Oct 2008

Quote by R6_biker
I think it is a very fair post, but please don't turn this thread into a 'chatroom not working' whinge or a 'stop moaning about the chatroom' whinge.
This post is without malice and is very clear how a lot of members feel and doesn't need belittling in any way.
Mal

:thumbup:
i think this letter is a fair point... as having SAP recently installed in our Business.. i know very well the pit fall as change to make... our wholesall business was always favoured by our customer because of our constant 99 - 100% fill rates.. due to poor testing.. and the correct communication to our customers.. we had cliches which brought our serve down by half... and customers went else were.. only now after 12 months we are starting to get our once great reputation back on track.
this site is a superb site.. and i have gone exploring esle were.. but other sites.. just dont have that spark that i find here.. so time and time again i find me self back here... and hopefully the problems that are happening are tempoary. as i'd hate this communitey to go through a huge break up as it did a few years ago.

14 Oct 2008

Quote by Mal
I think it is a very fair post, but please don't turn this thread into a 'chatroom not working' whinge or a 'stop moaning about the chatroom' whinge.
This post is without malice and is very clear how a lot of members feel and doesn't need belittling in any way.
Mal

Good points raised Mal.

14 Oct 2008

Quote by Gufuncouple
An Open Letter to the Owners of SH
Dear Owners,
The recent problems with the site, especially the Chatrooms is making our SH Community a laughing stock.
Whilst we all appreciate that hardware does fail, software has glitches and broadband connections have a life of their own. These problems are occurring with increasing frequency and as paying customers for the service, we do expect either a reliable stable service or when problems are experienced a reasonable feedback on when service will be restored.
The payment for access / service constitutes a contract between SH and it’s customers and we are not currently getting this service on a regular and stable basis.
We understand that server hosting is provided for SH by a ‘Third-party’ provider. This service and support is obviously below par and the current service provision agreement with them needs to be reviewed in the light of the current problems. With a site like SH it required 24x7 support and a defined time-to-fix. As there is no direct way of reporting problems via Admin to the ‘hoster’ they need to provide active systems monitoring to identify and alert support when problems occur. This is a responsibility of the SH owners to put in place with your providers.
If the problems are generated by software changes by the site programming team, then there is obviously a fundamental business systems problem that allows defective programming to be released to a production server and it is again the responsibility of the owners to provide a proper process to alleviate this from happening and disrupting the chargeable service.
Having watched the vitriol from some users towards both Room Ops and Mods, these volunteers with soon resign having ‘had enough’, the paying customers will search for other sites which provide a stable service and move. The nett result will be reducing revenue, less money for site development, more problems and ultimately a business failure (which none of us want!).
Please take note – DO SOMETHING and keep the CUSTOMERS informed. A lot of us are very loyal to SH and been members for many happy years and hopefully for many more.
“It takes years to build a reputation – it takes seconds to undo it “

I couldn't agree more and for those who disagree its beyond me for you not wanting a chat room that runs without so many breakdowns

14 Oct 2008

Quote by Gufuncouple
An Open Letter to the Owners of SH
Dear Owners,
The recent problems with the site, especially the Chatrooms is making our SH Community a laughing stock...............

Really, where is SH being a laughing stock? fact or your persception?

13.4 We do not warrant that the functions of the website or the Services will be uninterrupted or error free, that defects will be corrected or that the Swinging Heaven website or the server that makes it available are free of viruses or bugs.

From the T&C.
Errors / breakdowns happen...........

14 Oct 2008

Quote by Sarah
An Open Letter to the Owners of SH
Dear Owners,
The recent problems with the site, especially the Chatrooms is making our SH Community a laughing stock...............

Really, where is SH being a laughing stock? fact or your persception?

13.4 We do not warrant that the functions of the website or the Services will be uninterrupted or error free, that defects will be corrected or that the Swinging Heaven website or the server that makes it available are free of viruses or bugs.

From the T&C.
Errors / breakdowns happen...........
We are members of a number of similar sites as are lot of other SH members. When this site is not available it does get discussed on other sites. We can see the effect that these conversations have on non-SH members and the negative perception that creates. If we were sitting on SH and people from another web site came on moaning - what perception of that of that website would you have?
Personally, I wouldn't like to argue 13.4 in a court of law. We appreciate breakdowns happen, software screws up - that's not the point! We all accept that it does, the point is that paying for a service to be provided consitutes a contract in law in the UK - 3rd party providers are not exempt where this forms part of the overall package at the point of connection.

14 Oct 2008

even though lately i have started to limit my chatroom use here it is frustrating to find that the rooms are unavailable at times.
No one can get away from the fact that the rooms are down often one can say different.
As people pay to use the site the law is clear.
If you pay for a service you are entitled by law as of right to be able to receive a fare return on that service has to be up to a standard that justifys the payment required to use it.
If you are paying for a period of time you are entitled to access the whole service not in not in part which fails regulary.
Let's not start bad mouthing or digging at people because of the view that they want value for money.
If it happened now and then people wouldnt post but its often and repeated.
Btw.i help run a nascar website which uses the nascar trackpass system so members can view the races live.
They have to pay a full season in advance to use this.
If at anytime the service is unavailable during a race i sita has to issue a part refund or face being taken to court.
a year or a no difference in law.

14 Oct 2008

Quote by Gufuncouple
An Open Letter to the Owners of SH
Dear Owners,
The recent problems with the site, especially the Chatrooms is making our SH Community a laughing stock...............

Really, where is SH being a laughing stock? fact or your persception?

13.4 We do not warrant that the functions of the website or the Services will be uninterrupted or error free, that defects will be corrected or that the Swinging Heaven website or the server that makes it available are free of viruses or bugs.

From the T&C.
Errors / breakdowns happen...........
We are members of a number of similar sites as a lot of other SH members. When this site is not available it does get discussed on other sites. We can see the effect that these conversations have on non-SH members and the negative perception that creates. If we were sitting on SH and people from another web site came on moaning - what perception of that of that website would you have?
Personally, I wouldn't like to argue 13.4 in a court of law. We appreciate breakdowns happen, software screws up - that's not the point! We all accept that it does, the point is that paying for a service to be provided consitutes a contract in law in the UK - 3rd party providers are not exempt where this forms part of the overall package at the point of connection.
Bilge! - if I understand you correctly..
In English contract law you can contract out (or in!) anything you like. Sue ex-parte if you like, but it will cost you dear and there is little chance of success. Remember that the other side's costs could be against you! Unless the Contract can be held to be unfair within the very strict terms of legislation defining unfairness, your chances are very slim. They probably become even slimmer when the contract provider has to rely on third parties over whom they have no control themselves.
As an example, Microsoft acknowledge that there is about 10% bug-rate in their software (presumably after SP2 lol

). With billions of lines of code in their software - much of which relies on 3rd party additions, that amounts to a sizeable possible down time but you don't see many (if any) successful lawsuits against them!
Many people complain about Microsoft software, but billions still use it worldwide because, for the most part, it suits their need. I don't see the SH issue any differently; it's the de-facto industry standard that everyone talks about and tries to emulate - as indeed you admit!

14 Oct 2008

I think at the end of the day most people would like to see more communication from the admin team when the servers do go down, so please admin if you read this would it be possible just to update the chatroom news when they do. It would save the mods having to spend their time locking or merging threads, and it would make their lifes a lot easier. biggrin

14 Oct 2008

Quote by Gufuncouple
Having watched the vitriol from some users towards both Room Ops and Mods, these volunteers will soon resign having ‘had enough’

Have you actually heard any of the chatroom ops or moderators say this first hand, or is this just the start of a rumour?

14 Oct 2008

Quote by Ian

Having watched the vitriol from some users towards both Room Ops and Mods, these volunteers will soon resign having ‘had enough’

Have you actually heard any of the chatroom ops or moderators say this first hand, or is this just the start of a rumour?
Rumours cost lives. lol

14 Oct 2008

Quote by GnV
An Open Letter to the Owners of SH
Dear Owners,
The recent problems with the site, especially the Chatrooms is making our SH Community a laughing stock...............

Really, where is SH being a laughing stock? fact or your persception?

13.4 We do not warrant that the functions of the website or the Services will be uninterrupted or error free, that defects will be corrected or that the Swinging Heaven website or the server that makes it available are free of viruses or bugs.

From the T&C.
Errors / breakdowns happen...........
We are members of a number of similar sites as a lot of other SH members. When this site is not available it does get discussed on other sites. We can see the effect that these conversations have on non-SH members and the negative perception that creates. If we were sitting on SH and people from another web site came on moaning - what perception of that of that website would you have?
Personally, I wouldn't like to argue 13.4 in a court of law. We appreciate breakdowns happen, software screws up - that's not the point! We all accept that it does, the point is that paying for a service to be provided consitutes a contract in law in the UK - 3rd party providers are not exempt where this forms part of the overall package at the point of connection.
Bilge! - if I understand you correctly..
In English contract law you can contract out (or in!) anything you like. Sue ex-parte if you like, but it will cost you dear and there is little chance of success. Remember that the other side's costs could be against you! Unless the Contract can be held to be unfair within the very strict terms of legislation defining unfairness, your chances are very slim. They probably become even slimmer when the contract provider has to rely on third parties over whom they have no control themselves.
As an example, Microsoft acknowledge that there is about 10% bug-rate in their software (presumably after SP2 lol

). With billions of lines of code in their software - much of which relies on 3rd party additions, that amounts to a sizeable possible down time but you don't see many (if any) successful lawsuits against them!
Many people complain about Microsoft software, but billions still use it worldwide because, for the most part, it suits their need. I don't see the SH issue any differently; it's the de-facto industry standard that everyone talks about and tries to emulate - as indeed you admit!
I don't think you do!
I am not avocating sueing SH in anyway whatsoever!!
One is just trying to get the service one is paying for.
Since the last support post (15 Aug 08) 'issues being resolved' the site has had at least two major crashes on the chatroom logon server(1) - no update has been posted by the site operators or even an apology for the service disruption to non-extras members. dunno

How much does it take to put on the main site - Sorry the chatroom logon server is currently down our hosting company hope to resolve this within the next few hours?
Those that don't read the support post and try and logon, only then have themselves to blame!

15 Oct 2008

Quote by Gufuncouple
I don't think you do!
I am not avocating sueing SH in anyway whatsoever!!
One is just trying to get the service one is paying for.

Then why mention legal process at all? Some kind of veiled threat perhaps? dunno

Quote by Gufuncouple
Since the last support post (15 Aug 08) 'issues being resolved' the site has had at least two major crashes on the chatroom logon server(1) - no update has been posted by the site operators or even an apology for the service disruption to non-extras members. :dunno:
How much does it take to put on the main site - Sorry the chatroom logon server is currently down our hosting company hope to resolve this within the next few hours?
Those that don't read the support post and try and logon, only then have themselves to blame!

The site has the T&C's and AUP links on that page too.. considering the behaviour of some users in chat, it's clear they don't read them, so why waste time putting something else up they won't read? :dunno:
As someone else has already said, SH is more than just the Chat Room and there is a Chat Room Forum provided which was fought for long and hard. This is the place most knowledgeable users will go to to see if there is a problem and I for one don't see any need to change.
Lastly, I find your comments about Chat Room Ops and Moderators frankly appalling. The presence of these dedicated people are the very reason SH survives and has become the de-facto standard. To suggest, without a shred of evidence, that they will soon resign beggars belief and puts all of your postings on this thread into context.

15 Oct 2008

Quote by Gufuncouple
Since the last support post (15 Aug 08) 'issues being resolved' the site has had at least two major crashes on the chatroom logon server(1) - no update has been posted by the site operators or even an apology for the service disruption to non-extras members.
How much does it take to put on the main site - Sorry the chatroom logon server is currently down our hosting company hope to resolve this within the next few hours?
Those that don't read the support post and try and logon, only then have themselves to blame!

Quote by admin in another thread
Our sincerest apologies, our technical departments are working on a remedy, double speed.

15 Oct 2008

Thanks Steve.. I missed that one! :thumbup:

15 Oct 2008

Quote by Steve

Since the last support post (15 Aug 08) 'issues being resolved' the site has had at least two major crashes on the chatroom logon server(1) - no update has been posted by the site operators or even an apology for the service disruption to non-extras members.
How much does it take to put on the main site - Sorry the chatroom logon server is currently down our hosting company hope to resolve this within the next few hours?
Those that don't read the support post and try and logon, only then have themselves to blame!

Quote by admin in another thread
Our sincerest apologies, our technical departments are working on a remedy, double speed.

Then what is the point of having Chatroom News on the main Chatroom Page if it is not to provide communication?
Does the site expect users to trawl through hundreds of forum posts and threads to find an apology?

15 Oct 2008

but if people didnt post hundreds of same/similar posts and stuck to the threads already running then perhaps admins apology might be easier to spot .... rant over and yes i did actualy agree that there should have been a sorry in the chat news on main page

15 Oct 2008

Everyone is entitled to their point GnV.
You may disagree with ours and we may disagree with yours.
To clarify-
At no point in the orginal post do we advocate either us or other users sueing the site for any reason whatsoever. We just want to use the service and its functions that we are paying for. We're not asking for a credit or refund - simply that the management look at their contract with the hosting company and get a resolution quickly.
The Chatroom Ops are a dedicated team of voulenteers - but people will reach a point where 'enough is enough'. We were lucky and have an 'Extras' account and could access the chatrooms via the extras lounge. It was quite frankly appalling watching some of the comments posted that night that the 'on-duty' Op had to endure and was even worse the following day when the bulk of the users returned and the morning op also had to take the flack. It is a testament to them that they did so with good grace and professionalism.

15 Oct 2008

Quote by Gufuncouple
Everyone is entitled to their point GnV.
You may disagree with ours and we may disagree with yours.
To clarify-
At no point in the orginal post do we advocate either us or other users sueing the site for any reason whatsoever. We just want to use the service and its functions that we are paying for. We're not asking for a credit or refund - simply that the management look at their contract with the hosting company and get a resolution quickly.
The Chatroom Ops are a dedicated team of voulenteers - but people will reach a point where 'enough is enough'. We were lucky and have an 'Extras' account and could access the chatrooms via the extras lounge. It was quite frankly appalling watching some of the comments posted that night that the 'on-duty' Op had to endure and was even worse the following day when the bulk of the users returned and the morning op also had to take the flack. It is a testament to them that they did so with good grace and professionalism.

Interesting that you are now referring to "a point" when before, you were telling us more than a few things...
So then, let's go back to it.. you were only making a "point" when you said:

Quote by Gufuncouple
Having watched the vitriol from some users towards both Room Ops and Mods, these volunteers will soon resign having ‘had enough’

rather than, as seems to have been implied, there is an imminent departure of Ops and Mods..
and was it only a "point" when you said:

Quote by Gufuncouple
The recent problems with the site, especially the Chatrooms is making our SH Community a laughing stock...............

rather than SH actually being a laughing stock..
which, I'm sure you can see, is somewhat different to the original impressions given in your postings.
I'm pleased you managed to clarify those points, thank you.

15 Oct 2008

Quote by Gufuncouple

Since the last support post (15 Aug 08) 'issues being resolved' the site has had at least two major crashes on the chatroom logon server(1) - no update has been posted by the site operators or even an apology for the service disruption to non-extras members.
How much does it take to put on the main site - Sorry the chatroom logon server is currently down our hosting company hope to resolve this within the next few hours?
Those that don't read the support post and try and logon, only then have themselves to blame!

Quote by admin in another thread
Our sincerest apologies, our technical departments are working on a remedy, double speed.

Then what is the point of having Chatroom News on the main Chatroom Page if it is not to provide communication?
Does the site expect users to trawl through hundreds of forum posts and threads to find an apology?
You said that an appology had not been issued.......I proved you wrong :-)
Simple as that really...... :-)

15 Oct 2008

I love a good debate. lol

15 Oct 2008

I really don't get why people get so pissed off with a website that goes down for 2 evenings in a month. I don't know about anyone else but I can always find something else to do while it is down. So what if you lost a whole £1, try searching down the back of your sofa for a replacement rolleyes

Anyway, I really wished I could keep my mouth shut at times but as an OP and Mod I really don't like someone presuming what I am thinking :roll:
For a start, if I didn't want to deal with any site issues, I can log out :thumbup: Thats so simple, even Sarge could do it :lol2:
Secondly, I think its expected that people let off steam towards someone. If it happens to be at me as an OP, it doesn't worry me. Its not personal, you don't know me and so it doesn't affect me.
Finally, what does make me consider giving up any status I have on this site is the constant moaning, bitching and making issues personal that are getting right on my wick!!!

15 Oct 2008

:thumbup:

:love:
Well said Dawnie xxxx
phredd

15 Oct 2008

Quote by medic_1
:thumbup:

:love:
Well said Dawnie xxxx
phredd

I'd agree with Dawnie's sentiments too although I'd probably prefer to get on her tits than her wick redface

15 Oct 2008

Quote by Dawnie
So what if you lost a whole £1, try searching down the back of your sofa for a replacement

I've got a good idea what might be down the back of your sofa:

:rascal:

Quote by Dawnie
...that are getting right on my wick!!!

I thought you had lady-bits
bolt

Just a thought on the perenial problem of a significant number of chatroom users not using the chatroom forum. Could Admin put a temporary link in place when the chatroom is down for extended periods?
It could appear in place of the chat server and read something like "The chatroom is unavailable at the moment - you are being redirected to the chatroom forum for more information"
This might encourage first time forum-ites to start reading the wealth of information in here. wink

15 Oct 2008

Quote by Dawnie
For a start, if I didn't want to deal with any site issues, I can log out :thumbup: Thats so simple, even Sarge could do it :lol2:

You mean we can log out of here?? confused

:?

ops: :oops: wink

15 Oct 2008

Quote by Sgt Bilko

For a start, if I didn't want to deal with any site issues, I can log out :thumbup: Thats so simple, even Sarge could do it :lol2:

You mean we can log out of here?? confused

:?

ops: :oops: wink

If the Sarge logged out of SH, it would be the same as the ravens leaving the Tower of London :scared:

Do other customers agree?