Just had a barney with some kids who thought that a show that everyone else was being "respectful" to was a great photo opportunity. It's not often that I get upset, but when some yoof in a hoodie, (who him and his 2 or more mates have taken to dogging since it became "hip") ignores 3 requests to put his cameraphone away, then I'm sorry, but I have to act. I WILL NOT stand for a camera to be within 100 yards of me in this game.
I had a go at ripping the phone out of his hands, but was stopped by him and his 2 mates, and in the end other doggers had to get between us. His phone never came out of his pocket again after that, but the lack of support from the other guys there made me think, was I in the wrong, and is photographing a couple putting on a show (without them knowing anything about it) what this game has come to now?
What do you think? Should there be "honour amongst theives" and some respect for the "privacy" of couples be self regulated in the spirit of what goes on, on the car park, stays on the car park, or should we all roll up with our zero lux cameras and camcorders, and record everything that we see now?
Was I in the right or in the wrong to take action?
It'll be interesting to hear your opinions.
BTW, if anyone does want to be filmed or photographed in the Birmingham area, look out for a silver Vectra, with blackened out rear windows. I'm sure that the (usually 3) lads in there won't let you down.
I wouldn't take a photo of anyone during the action.....hopefully it'd be the last thing on my mind anyway!! Taking photos for someone is different but to just get a mobile out and take photos without express permission is pretty inconsiderate!
We think that's tottally out of order, think whoever took a photo of us without permission would end with a happy slapper vid on his phone of him on the reciveing end.
how dare he even think about it without asking if it would be ok
liberty takers - you should carry a rule book for them to read as well as the kleenex !
there again they probably would not know how to open a book never mind read one.
I always find it is a good idea to make sure that all rough edges and things that stick out on phones should be filed smooth - that way it doesnt hurt them too much when you ram it up their arse!!!
OK, points taken on board.
So how about a little role play. Imagine a car with a couple in it, The lights are on and the hormones are flowing. They don't care who or how many are outside.
But you are one of those guys outside, along with 6 others. Another car pulls up. Out come 3 yoofs in their late teens, or early 20's, hoods up, and head towards the car. One of them pulls out the camera phone. You ask him nicely to put it away. He ignores you. You raise your voice to make sure youare heard, and ask nicely again. You get ignored again. You tell him in no uncertain terms a 3rd time, and not a blind bit of notice is taken....
...over to you. What would you have done?
A few ground rules...
1. You are on your own
2. There are 3 of them
3. You can't rely on the other people there because everyone is a stranger to everyone else
4. You want to preserve the car park as a place for couples to come without fear of it getting a bad name for this kind of unwanted activity.
5. Positive responses only please. What you WOULD have done, not a list of things you wouldn't have done.
No respect there at all, however if violence was your answer then it's you who would be arrested.
That said, I would have stepped in to help you.
Partyman, I really dont know what I would do in that situation, its one of those things that you cant say unless you are unfortunate enough to be there.
I understand fully what you are saying about cameras and people taking pictures and I really do not condone their behaviour. You did what you though was best to stop the couple being put into a very difficult situation and I applaud you for that, but as I said I honestly dont know what I would have done, and I really hope that I never have to find out.
of course, its a dilema..as one of those couples that have shown without regard to quantity, we do put a certain reliance in the doggers to self police..an obvious, and frequent example would be the frantic rapping on the window to warn of an impending visit by old bill..
with the interior light on, in most situations, it is all but impossible to assertain who, and how many are watching, let alone what they are weilding, again, if we are entertaining, then its difficult to show with abandonment if we have to preoccupy ourselves with what the dogging doughnuts are getting up to outside.
maybe using the approach of shouting "cameras being used guys" through the window would conclude the situation without you having to put yourself at risk of injury..naturally, your fellow voyeurs may not be best pleased, given that the couple might beat a hasty retreat, but in all likelyhood, their wrath would find vent at the perpertrators, rather than yourself.
apologies for the happy slap bit in our post earlier, you are right no one needs to turn to voilence!
DD had it right earlier and that is, we would hope that whilst we are the center of attention, that our backsides exposed to al,l would be protected, in as much as the offender would be asked to put his phone away, by the other doggers
My backside on the front of the sunday rags wouldn't sell any more copies, probally less, "k's" on the other hand would!
Tthat is not the point, there is no way that we want what we do for kicks getting passed around by phone, web or newspapers with the implications of our family and where we live
it,s happen to us and it just put,s you in the end it,s the guys who want to see a show that are losing out
surely there is only one answer- tell the couple. if it was done on us we would want to know about it asap, just to make sure the pics were deleted.
67 Voyeurism
(1) A person commits an offence if-
(a) for the purpose of obtaining sexual gratification, he observes another person doing a private act, and
(b) he knows that the other person does not consent to being observed for his sexual gratification.
(2) A person commits an offence if-
(a) he operates equipment with the intention of enabling another person to observe, for the purpose of obtaining sexual gratification, a third person (B) doing a private act, and
(b) he knows that B does not consent to his operating equipment with that intention.
(3) A person commits an offence if-
(a) he records another person (B) doing a private act,
(b) he does so with the intention that he or a third person will, for the purpose of obtaining sexual gratification, look at an image of B doing the act, and
(c) he knows that B does not consent to his recording the act with that intention.
so actually they are breaking the law then by taking pics of you? well done for clearing that one up jomu.
After reading all of this thread I have to say that had it been myself in your situation and not that I'm an experienced dogger or anything, but I think I would've been very angry as well but rather than getting out of the car to give him a hiding, I think it would have just been easier to stop what you were doing until they put it away and left then carried on where you left off.. or if they didnt leave and it looked like you weren't getting anywhere with them, maybe just leave and come back later on to finish what you started... no doubt, by then the young 'yoofs' as you put it would've already had their fill and probably gone back home to do their coursework for college the next day...
Sorry to hear that you were upset by it all and hope that it never happens to myself...
must admit i do luv camera fones , however i think i know of the hoodrats you are talking about and think i arrived as you were leaving that time
at the very least i think permission should be sought before doing anything like that, treat others as you would like to be treated and all that.....
so always ask....though i for one would deffo not take any pics unless by prior arrangement
Hi , we just thought we would add our little piece .
camera phones are great, but consent is the key "hey do you mind me filming you on my cameraphone" "no not at all we love it " or "hey do you mind me filming you on my cameraphone" " no thanks put it away "
Personally we go out to have fun, we save the movie making for home,not the neighbours or the net. perhaps a sticky with advice on use of camera phones would be advisable . :idea:
personally i would never photograph a couple i was viewing without there express permission. im not sure i would go as far as knocking on the window to ask permission but as that was only option there with asking permission on it thats what i ticked. i have seen some doggers at wisley that allow pics to be taken but its a rarity.
Actually, legal it isn't.
What you have to do is to look at how the actual CASES are being dealt with in courts.
For instance: the husband using hidden video equipment to watch his WIFE bathing....he got banged-up for the offence.
It is simpler to say that you have no right to record anyone performing a sex act (even with an audience) without first asking to so do.
Fairly local to me, a guy was caught videoing a couple in the back of a range rover....he not only got his face well smashed, but his camera was also smashed...onto his head....it is fair to say that the bloke being filmed was not pleased....and I don't think he paid any attention to the various laws on assault..
It wasnt me , but it could have been J . The correct reaction in my book .
The key here appears to be the "reasonable expectation of privacy". While doggers have set rules, the location is public by all normal understandings. Thus filming is a breach of etiquette, but almost certainly not a breach of law.
The law on use of force relates to "reasonable force" in response to a threat (as a martial artist I have had many briefings on that). Using a camera phone is not threatening in and of itself. Of course if they are asked to stop and respond with threatening behaviour that MAY change matters, but to initiate a physical assault is in breach of UK law unless there is clear and immediate threat, and even then must be a "reasonable" response.
So, maybe another approach is needed, but it seems to be a real risk involved in dogging. And one the Sunday papers have been doing for a while.
A non-dogger......
.
