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A Fair Trial ??

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Quote by flower411
The men accused of masterminding the attacks on the Twin Towers are being sent to New York for trial.
What are the chances that these men will receive a fair trial ?
I would say they are nil !! These men have already been found guilty and the trial is just for show so that they can be "legally" executed.

If they have already been found guilty as you say...the evidence must be damning against them, if a trail has been arranged for them...so that they can be "executed" legally...
Quote by flower411
The men accused of masterminding the attacks on the Twin Towers are being sent to New York for trial.
What are the chances that these men will receive a fair trial ?
I would say they are nil !! These men have already been found guilty and the trial is just for show so that they can be "legally" executed.

If they have already been found guilty as you say...the evidence must be damning against them, if a trail has been arranged for them...so that they can be "executed" legally...
I`m sure that most prosecutors would claim that the evidence is damning against the people they wish to have convicted.
Well this one's going to be in the spot light...if there is evidence that will prove their guilt,then they will be found guilty,if the jury isn't convinced then they will be found not guilty...cannot see it any fairer than that!
I think the first hurdle will be resolving some legal pleadings to do with their original arrest (ie access to lawyers, right to remain silent, human rights breaches etc), and the fact that - in view of the high profile of the case - there is not a person NY, let alone in the USA who can claim to be impartial or not already having a pre-formed judgement about the case making a fair trial very difficult, if not impossible.
The lawyers are going to have an interesting time on this one.
So, what to do? Hold a kangaroo court like the US sponsored one which convicted Saddam Hussain dunno
Thankfully unlike in the UK, the Human rights rubbish will not enter into this.
If they are found guilty I hope the needle hurts...that is not being horrible just honest.
I believe they WILL get a fair trial, but from what I can see the evidence is already there to find them guilty.
Once and if that is established.....I wonder what their last meals will be?
There will be plenty out there who either think the USA will stitch them up, or not give them a fair trial, but with the tv cameras rolling, and the worlds eyes watching, they will get much more of a fair trial than a lot of others will.
Maybe at last IF they are guilty justice will be done.
Anyone who honestly believes that this will be a fair trial is living in cloud cuckoo land (to coin a phrase)...there's been no hint of justice in their treatment to date why would that change now ?
Sadly I do not know anything of this case at all. I didn't even know they had caught the planners of the twin towers
Dave_Notts
after being waterboarded 183 times even kenty would admit to anything. so one of them masterminded the whole thing, got norad to stand down, hit the pentagon, placed short bets on wall street against american airlines and "pulled" wtc 7 under the watchful noses of the fbi and cia ? i thought ossy bin liner masterminded and directed it from afghanistanbananastan ? oh, and 40 steel girders in the cores of the twin towers "pancaked" to dust and wtc 7 a 47 storey building that was not hit by a plane in the words of the owner silverstien was "pulled" ! in whose interests did it serve ? the never endind war on terror or was it theft ? its a show trial, theatre, for the kenty's of this world.
Quote by gulsonroad30664
after being waterboarded 183 times even kenty would admit to anything. so one of them masterminded the whole thing, got norad to stand down, hit the pentagon, placed short bets on wall street against american airlines and "pulled" wtc 7 under the watchful noses of the fbi and cia ? i thought ossy bin liner masterminded and directed it from afghanistanbananastan ? oh, and 40 steel girders in the cores of the twin towers "pancaked" to dust and wtc 7 a 47 storey building that was not hit by a plane in the words of the owner silverstien was "pulled" ! in whose interests did it serve ? the never endind war on terror or was it theft ? its a show trial, theatre, for the kenty's of this world.

I think we got the message the first time and the second and the third and....... neutral
Quote by kentswingers777
Thankfully unlike in the UK, the Human rights rubbish will not enter into this.

hate to burst that bubble... but yes it will....
having looked at a lot of the american news networks coverage.... up till the point right before "rendition"... most agree very strong case...
from the "rendition" onward.... erm.. not so much...
because he was detained almost certainly illegally, then came the "waterboarding" which is still illegal and the supposed confessions under duress...
the debate is whether the US lawyers will present any stuff post "rendition" for fear that it will be immediately thrown out as evidence....
the other question once the guilty verdict comes along will be do you really want to make a martyr of KSM when he wants to be executed anyway?
Quote by fabio
Thankfully unlike in the UK, the Human rights rubbish will not enter into this.

hate to burst that bubble... but yes it will....
having looked at a lot of the american news networks coverage.... up till the point right before "rendition"... most agree very strong case...
from the "rendition" onward.... erm.. not so much...
because he was detained almost certainly illegally, then came the "waterboarding" which is still illegal and the supposed confessions under duress...
the debate is whether the US lawyers will present any stuff post "rendition" for fear that it will be immediately thrown out as evidence....
the other question once the guilty verdict comes along will be do you really want to make a martyr of KSM when he wants to be executed anyway?
Then don't execute him. Make him go and live with the Amish. biggrin
Quote by Max777
after being waterboarded 183 times even kenty would admit to anything. so one of them masterminded the whole thing, got norad to stand down, hit the pentagon, placed short bets on wall street against american airlines and "pulled" wtc 7 under the watchful noses of the fbi and cia ? i thought ossy bin liner masterminded and directed it from afghanistanbananastan ? oh, and 40 steel girders in the cores of the twin towers "pancaked" to dust and wtc 7 a 47 storey building that was not hit by a plane in the words of the owner silverstien was "pulled" ! in whose interests did it serve ? the never endind war on terror or was it theft ? its a show trial, theatre, for the kenty's of this world.

I think we got the message the first time and the second and the third and....... neutral
And the fourth and the fifth...............zzzzzzzzz wink
Quote by Dave__Notts
Sadly I do not know anything of this case at all. I didn't even know they had caught the planners of the twin towers
Dave_Notts

Same here, shall we sit in the dark corner over there? dunno
Next you lot will be telling me its been on TV too :lol2::lol2:
So called democracies and fair trials. There was no need to torture them and there is no need for a trial. They should have dealt with this the Israeli way. MOSAD don't gave to worry about people they are after getting off on technicalities. They just watch heir mark until the time is right then kill the bugger.
To hell with human rights, this is about mass murder.
Quote by BrightonGeezer
So called democracies and fair trials. There was no need to torture them and there is no need for a trial. They should have dealt with this the Israeli way. MOSAD don't gave to worry about people they are after getting off on technicalities. They just watch heir mark until the time is right then kill the bugger.
To hell with human rights, this is about mass murder.

But, doesn't that make you as bad as them dunno
The opinion has already been expressed, by many legal experts in the USA, that the suspects may well be not tried. This is due to the amount of torture used when questioning them.
A court in THIS country would not allow a trial due to their illegal detention (over 6 years) and the use of questionable "physical" questioning ("waterboarding").
Nothing to do with "'uman rights", just something to do with the fact that a person tends to give any answer when they are being held under water until they pass out.
Quote by GnV
So called democracies and fair trials. There was no need to torture them and there is no need for a trial. They should have dealt with this the Israeli way. MOSAD don't gave to worry about people they are after getting off on technicalities. They just watch heir mark until the time is right then kill the bugger.
To hell with human rights, this is about mass murder.

But, doesn't that make you as bad as them dunno
The answer to that is maybe, but I can't be the only one who watches in disgust as time after time smart lawyers and bucket loads of money can make men who are as guilty as hell walk free. I know it is hardly likely to happen in this case, but they will have their supporters and they will do everything they can to disrupt the proceedings. Had US agents been sent out to eliminate these terrorists it would all be over already. The terrorists would be dead, but rather a bullet in the head from a sniper's rifle than a long drawn out trial and an execution. The message would be clear, mess with us and we will deal with you, no messing about no day in court no chance of escape.
It would be a damn sight cheaper too!
Quote by flower411
snip...
But in situations where there may be some confusion about the motives of the people carrying out the summary executions, I`d be a little nervous that they might simply be looking for scapegoats.

A bit like finding a passport in the burning rubble totally unscorched... dunno
You'd think they would use other, more realistic planted evidence perhaps.
Trouble with the Feds is, they've no imagination.
I don't support terrorism and never will. Nor that two wrongs make a right.
I do however support the rule of law. These people ARE entitled to a fair trial and for their basic human rights to be honoured. If that is not observed but they press on with it anyway, in the end they become no better than the evil they seek to destroy.
Quote by Dave__Notts
Sadly I do not know anything of this case at all. I didn't even know they had caught the planners of the twin towers
Dave_Notts

Basically Khalid Sheikh Mohammed (KSM) is the one who it is alledged was the mastermind behind 9/11, It was his idea and then he went to Bin Laden who okay'd it and backed it financially...
it is being alledged that KSM did all of the recruiting of the hi-jacker's, the planning, the run thru's
and there is strong evidence to support all of that, and he doesn't deny any of that.... It is the illegal "rendition" of KSM, the torture of which waterboarding is one (he was waterboarded 15 times) the supposed confessions under duress and treatment in the hands of the americans which is what is coming into focus....
that is why there is a big debate on whether the US will present anything post rendition as evidence for fear it will be immediately thrown out which would be a huge embarrassment for the US government.....
dave... if you or anyone get the chance and you have an mp3 player... get the countdown, or rachel maddow podcasts.... or from sky news the "foreign matters" podcasts...which are brilliant insights into the political scene
Well said GNV.
What flower just said :thumbup:
Quote by flower411
Thankfully unlike in the UK, the Human rights rubbish will not enter into this.
If they are found guilty I hope the needle hurts...that is not being horrible just honest.
I believe they WILL get a fair trial, but from what I can see the evidence is already there to find them guilty.
Once and if that is established.....I wonder what their last meals will be?
There will be plenty out there who either think the USA will stitch them up, or not give them a fair trial, but with the tv cameras rolling, and the worlds eyes watching, they will get much more of a fair trial than a lot of others will.
Maybe at last IF they are guilty justice will be done.

Oh the irony !! rolleyes
Let`s just hope the people on the jury are little bit more open minded !!!
One of them has already openly admitted his involvement in 9/11.
I know from your past comments your dislike of the Yanks, so I think your opinions would never ever deviate away from the view, that because they are Americans, and the trial is in the USA, it will never be fair. GNV has very similar opinions to the Yanks, funny how you both agree on this subject.
Hence why you started this thread in the first place.
What about YOU being open minded, in the fact they COULD end up getting that fair trial....but you won't believe that for a second...will you? :shock:
It's all a conspiracy.....
The Yanks....responsibly for everything bad in the world. :shock:
So you like the Yanks then?
This had nothing to do whatsoever with your dislike and mistrust of them?
Why won't you accept they could get a fair trial?
The Yanks just could have executed them in secret, and then made some excuse as to their deaths....I would not have blamed them.
At least they are now doing the right thing in giving them a trial, and unlike in the UK, it will no doubt be shown on national tv out there for all to see.
Then and only then make your own mind up as to whether they got a fair trial but....you have already made your mind up before a trial has even started, which is exactly what you will accuse the Yanks of doing.....guilty anyway so a trail is just a show piece. You think they will not get a fair trial so why bother.....one of the same really, but with different objectives.
Quote by kentswingers777
At least they are now doing the right thing in giving them a trial, and unlike in the UK, it will no doubt be shown on national tv out there for all to see.

Which is a really bad thing. The jury (presuming this will be a jury trial) could be swayed by pundits/hearsay/media bias instead of making their own minds up. Nothing is ever reported in an unbiased fashion, even the BBC, which is supposedly unbiased, still manages to put its own spin on topics.
It has nothing to do with that at all Flower....stop being paranoid.
I simply asked questions that I thought you would have answered, which sorry you have not.
You do not think they will get a fair trial, that is fair enough...you are entitled to that opinion. But then you are saying the same thing yourself as to they will not get a fair trial....that is nothing personnel at all.
It is exactly the same in the UK. Many times like Karen Mathews or the Baby P case, where it was in the media. You could have said the same things there, about them not getting a fair trial...so why is this case any different apart from the fact ( it seems to me ) that it is the Yanks involved.
I have stated many times I am not a lover of the Yanks, but to suggest these people will not get a fair trial, even before a trial has started, is not being very open minded.
The world will be watching and I am sure everything will be done to give them that fair trial, you seem to think they will not get.
Can you possibly imagine the outcry for one second IF people thought they were not given that fair trial, but yet were convicted and then executed? That ain't gonna happen, and I think they will get the fairest of trials.
IF they are found guilty whatever the sentence will be, there will still be people who think it was not fair. Being killed in 9/11 was not fair....jumping from those buildings to your certain death, was not fair......thousands of families losing loved ones was not fair. Lets hope they are afforded the same fair, that so many thousands did not.
Quote by kentswingers777
Thankfully unlike in the UK, the Human rights rubbish will not enter into this.
If they are found guilty I hope the needle hurts...that is not being horrible just honest.
I believe they WILL get a fair trial, but from what I can see the evidence is already there to find them guilty.
Once and if that is established.....I wonder what their last meals will be?
There will be plenty out there who either think the USA will stitch them up, or not give them a fair trial, but with the tv cameras rolling, and the worlds eyes watching, they will get much more of a fair trial than a lot of others will.
Maybe at last IF they are guilty justice will be done.

Oh the irony !! rolleyes
Let`s just hope the people on the jury are little bit more open minded !!!
One of them has already openly admitted his involvement in 9/11.
I know from your past comments your dislike of the Yanks, so I think your opinions would never ever deviate away from the view, that because they are Americans, and the trial is in the USA, it will never be fair. GNV has very similar opinions to the Yanks, funny how you both agree on this subject.
Hence why you started this thread in the first place.
What about YOU being open minded, in the fact they COULD end up getting that fair trial....but you won't believe that for a second...will you? :shock:
by which you mean? :confused:
You have both made it very clear about your dislike of the Yanks, as have I but....really GNV....your conspiracy theories over 9/11 are a bit far fetched. wink
Quote by flower411
It has nothing to do with that at all Flower....stop being paranoid.
I simply asked questions that I thought you would have answered, which sorry you have not.
You do not think they will get a fair trial, that is fair enough...you are entitled to that opinion. But then you are saying the same thing yourself as to they will not get a fair trial....that is nothing personnel at all.
It is exactly the same in the UK. Many times like Karen Mathews or the Baby P case, where it was in the media. You could have said the same things there, about them not getting a fair trial...so why is this case any different apart from the fact ( it seems to me ) that it is the Yanks involved.
I have stated many times I am not a lover of the Yanks, but to suggest these people will not get a fair trial, even before a trial has started, is not being very open minded.
The world will be watching and I am sure everything will be done to give them that fair trial, you seem to think they will not get.
Can you possibly imagine the outcry for one second IF people thought they were not given that fair trial, but yet were convicted and then executed? That ain't gonna happen, and I think they will get the fairest of trials.
IF they are found guilty whatever the sentence will be, there will still be people who think it was not fair. Being killed in 9/11 was not fair....jumping from those buildings to your certain death, was not fair......thousands of families losing loved ones was not fair. Lets hope they are afforded the same fair, that so many thousands did not.

Sorry musta missed them ..
Care to repeat the questions I haven`t answered !![/quote
Re-read my comments....
Quote by Staggerlee_BB
Anyone who honestly believes that this will be a fair trial is living in cloud cuckoo land (to coin a phrase)...there's been no hint of justice in their treatment to date why would that change now ?

I suppose we should be grateful at least that it's a civilian trial, and not a closed military court, and at least the big questions like the legal validity of rendition and evidence gained under duress a.k.a. torture will be sure to come under the spotlight, but no, the idea that the guy will get a fair trial with a New York jury is just laughable! I'm not sure he could get a fair trial anywhere in the U.S. so great is the need for at least the appearance of justice being done, and some kind of closure.
There'll be lots of interesting legal arguments and grand-standing on the world stage to prove that American justice is the best in the world I'm sure, but when it comes down to it? The guy's dead already!
N x x x ;)
Quote by kentswingers777
You have both made it very clear about your dislike of the Yanks, as have I but....really GNV....your conspiracy theories over 9/11 are a bit far fetched. wink

Pardon me, but where have I made it clear about my dislike of the "Yanks"?
I have never said I dislike Americans - in fact, quite the opposite! I have spent time in the States and even had an American based company.
And what conspiracy theories are you referring to? I haven't proffered any :-?
Are you getting me confused with someone else?