Abu Qatada

16 Nov 2012

Quote by MidsCouple24
You can get out of the European Community which influences many of our courts descisions often to the detriment and frustration of our judges, legal system and population.

The reason why the appeal was allowed by a British court is because it violates Article 6 of the 1950 European Convention on Human Rights which guarantees the right to a fair trial, a treaty which predates the formation of the European Union ( or EEC as it then was ) under the 1957 Treaty of Rome by a good 7 years. The Special Immigration Appeal’s Commission reached its decision quite independently of any European court on this issue.
Furthermore, the EHCR is wholly distinct from the European Union as an economic / political entity except insofar as it has now been fully incorporated into EU law with the 2007 Treaty of Lisbon which amends the original 1957 Treaty of Rome. Withdrawal from the EU does not in and of itself end our obligations under the EHCR.
Just wanted to make that point clear because some as ever seem to be confused about the issues here.

16 Nov 2012

You Brits your amazing, you will allow people to make a laughing stock of you, kill you, kill your families, steal your money, incite hatred of you, kill your soldiers, incite others to kill your soldiers, do anything they want to you, so long as people won't accuse you of breaking the "FAIR PLAY" rules.
Have a go at anyone who wants to break the law and kick the bastard out but heaven forbid don't do anything to the man who is the problem unless it has had 10 years of discussion, court rulings and FAIR PLAY, so long as nobody in the world can say "you didnt do that by the law"
Then you can imagine what a British soldier feels like out in Afghanistan. Their rules of engagement are far worse.
I don't have to imagine, I have served in the British Army, fought in 4 conflicts and used the yellow and green cards (rules of engagement) rules of engagement I chose to comply with because they were common sense
What would you suggest we do then Mids? Take to the streets? Stage a national strike? I would be so interested to hear your views on how we can change these attitudes and stay within the law?
Words of wisdom, No, I am not wise, but I do believe in common sense and common sense should be used more often in Government, all to often it isn't, banning a banana because although it is grown correctly without pesticides, tastes good, healthy for us but is the wrong shape is not using common sense, keeping a man here and not extraditing when by his own actions and admission he has broken laws in this Country and in Jordan, continues to break those laws, incites other to break those laws, is dangerous to the British Public and costs us a fortune, is not common sense, it is baltant stupidity, not often but once in a while decisions could be made through common sense and made with the support of most law abiding citizens of the UK including the law abiding muslims citizens.
banghead

in utter frustration.
:doh: Slaps head in disbelief at your replies at times.
Anyway your not Britsih so why should you give a damn how and what we put up with?
What has the frustration of British Troops in Afghanistan got to do with it ? many people in many walks of life are frustrated with rules, regulations and laws, firefighters (see I remembered) are I am sure frustrated that when caught nothing is done about people who make hoax 999 calls putting firefighters and the publics lives at risk, Police officers who do a lot to make an arrest of a repeat offender just to see them have thier wrist slapped, again, people who work for companies that are struggling to survive because of silly rules imposed on them by EU regulations.
Examples, the small company in Dudley that for 100 years employed just 4 people, grandfathers, fathers and sons, crafstmen in handmade bespoke furniture, they almost closed down not because a lack of orders but because thier 15 ton machine was not bolted to the floor as required by EU regulations, it had stood in the same place for 100 years but EU regulations said it had to be bolted to the floor in case it fell over, the Black Country Museaum that had to stop selling sweets made the old fashioned way on 18th Century machines because the EU would not accept that a sign stating "these products are not made on EU conforming machines and may not pass EU health and safety regulations) or words to that effect, they could not let the public decide if the sweets they ate as a child or that thier parents and grandparents ate should be tried or not.
Laws and Regulations that could be looked at as individual cases and with a clause in those Laws and Regulations be allowed to be bypassed when common sense says it should, we have precedence for it throughout our history, court cases where Murder or Manslaughter has been "forgiven" on the grounds of "crimes of passion".
The Government of the UK paying fines incurred by British Soldiers (SAS) who crossed the border into Ireland whilst carrying out operations in the North.
UN ? you will quote the Geneva Convention next yet British Soldiers have in the past been ordered to break the rules of the Geneva Convention in times of conflict or war.
I believe the United Nations have strict laws on the use of Mercenaries by Governments of members, yet we used the Ghurkas for a hundred years (God bless them) paid by the UK Government yet having no rights under British Commonwealth law, no entitlement of residency in Britain, no pension rights, unlike soldiers from India, New Zealand, Australasia etc. (thank heavens that has now changed and their service has been recognised).
I think my service for this Country entitles me to an opinion, I think I am entitled to an opinion even without having served this Country.

17 Nov 2012

Quote by MidsCouple24
You Brits your amazing, you will allow people to make a laughing stock of you, kill you, kill your families, steal your money, incite hatred of you, kill your soldiers, incite others to kill your soldiers, do anything they want to you, so long as people won't accuse you of breaking the "FAIR PLAY" rules.
Have a go at anyone who wants to break the law and kick the bastard out but heaven forbid don't do anything to the man who is the problem unless it has had 10 years of discussion, court rulings and FAIR PLAY, so long as nobody in the world can say "you didnt do that by the law"

you not brit then jed dunno

No I am not a Brit, but I am a man who has fought in 4 different conflicts/wars in the British Army.
so what nationality are you then jed (just out of interest )

17 Nov 2012

Interested here also. wave

17 Nov 2012

I am a European, I was born in Lancashire, England with my ancestors coming from Scotland but that changed when Politicians decided to move the borders overnight I did not come from Lancashire I came from Cumbria, then later I became European having to abide by European rules and laws. That is one of the reasons I think it is ok to break the rules to suit what I believe because my fellow Europeans do it everyday, they are not tied by the traditions of fair play, actively encouraging people to leave some of our states to sneak into Britain is perfectly acceptable to us, blockading borders or preventing people returning to the state of thier origin is fine with us, refusing to act on some of the Laws our European government make or regulations they set is a way of life for us.
The British should learn by it.

17 Nov 2012

Quote by MidsCouple24
I am a European,
The British should learn by it.

A European? Well your certainly no way British yet live in Britain and constantly knock how the British do things.
Ever thought about wandering back to the European place you are obviously so much more fond of than Britain. dunno

Hates London with a passion and dislikes the British way. No wonder I want out of Europe.

17 Nov 2012

Quote by starlightcouple
I am a European,
The British should learn by it.

A European? Well your certainly no way British yet live in Britain and constantly knock how the British do things.
Ever thought about wandering back to the European place you are obviously so much more fond of than Britain. dunno

Hates London with a passion and dislikes the British way. No wonder I want out of Europe.
You need to read between the lines star.
If I read it right, he was indeed born English and then the borders between England and Scotland changed drawing him in to Scottish territory and then he became European British/Scottish when politics dictated it - as indeed I am, now living in France and as you are, living in Londres, the 101st Departement Français :lol2:
There's nothing wrong with being European, it broadens your outlook on the world.

17 Nov 2012

Quote by GnV
I am a European,
The British should learn by it.

A European? Well your certainly no way British yet live in Britain and constantly knock how the British do things.
Ever thought about wandering back to the European place you are obviously so much more fond of than Britain. dunno

Hates London with a passion and dislikes the British way. No wonder I want out of Europe.
You need to read between the lines star.
If I read it right, he was indeed born English and then the borders between England and Scotland changed drawing him in to Scottish territory and then he became European British/Scottish when politics dictated it - as indeed I am, now living in France and as you are, living in Londres, the 101st Departement Français :lol2:
There's nothing wrong with being European, it broadens your outlook on the world.
Jed said it was the Lancashire/Cumbria border that changed. The English/Scottish border has not changed in his lifetime......unless he's about 500 years old!

17 Nov 2012

I am a bit confused by his vagueness to just answer the question.
Sorry GnV am not European, will never be European. I am an Englishman living in the UK. Live in London and proud to be part of the greatest city on this planet. Go on holiday to Europe sometimes and that is about as much as I want to do with Europe. :thumbup:
Mids seems to have these great ideas of what 'Brutishness ' should be, but comes up with very little in the way of constructiveness.

17 Nov 2012

I can't see how that answer was vague, my ancestors came from Scotland moving South to Lancashire where I was born, British Politicians changed the borders and now having been born in Lancashire I find that my place of birth is now in Cumbria, so for a while I was a cumbrian Englishman of Scottish heritage, but then the Politicians stepped in again and against my personal will but with the consent of the majority who elected them, made us Europeans, I have to accept that, the laws and regulations that govern my life are largely made in European courts and parliaments, those made in British courts and parliaments have to be approved by Europe, this is what everyone has been telling me throughout this thread yet some of you who disaprove of being called European are telling me that I have to abide by those European laws ? and you accuse me of picking a choosing things :sad:
When serving in the British army I was at times ordered to wear the beret and insignia of the United Nations and controlled by the UN governing authorities both in peacetime and war/conflict roles.
I had to abide by the Geneva Convention except when the British Government decided that it would be ok to break some of the Geneva Convention rules and ordered me through my superiors to take actions not within the convention.
The same British Government you are telling me should not break any rules when it comes to extraditing a self confessed lawbreaker and threat to Britain.
If and When the government follow all the laws, regulations, treaties and moral ways of Europe, our treaty organisations and thier own laws I will agree that we have to abide by them no matter what our personal opinion is.
They are the ones who have set the precedence of choosing which laws and regulations we should follow just as other European member states do.
So I feel justified in saying "sod world opinion, make a descison in the British Courts and the Home Office regulators of the extradition treaties and if that descision is extradite him, do it, do not even think about what anyone else outside of Britain thinks".

17 Nov 2012

Quote by starlightcouple
I am a bit confused by his vagueness to just answer the question.
Sorry GnV am not European, will never be European. I am an Englishman living in the UK. Live in London and proud to be part of the greatest city on this planet. Go on holiday to Europe sometimes and that is about as much as I want to do with Europe. :thumbup:
Mids seems to have these great ideas of what 'Brutishness ' should be, but comes up with very little in the way of constructiveness.

So why support a great European team from Spain and not a great London team like Spurs dunno

17 Nov 2012

Quote by GnV
I am a bit confused by his vagueness to just answer the question.
Sorry GnV am not European, will never be European. I am an Englishman living in the UK. Live in London and proud to be part of the greatest city on this planet. Go on holiday to Europe sometimes and that is about as much as I want to do with Europe. :thumbup:
Mids seems to have these great ideas of what 'Brutishness ' should be, but comes up with very little in the way of constructiveness.

So why support a great European team from Spain and not a great London team like Spurs dunno

i always see star as an arsenal supporter G lol

17 Nov 2012

Quote by starlightcouple
I am a European,
The British should learn by it.

A European? Well your certainly no way British yet live in Britain and constantly knock how the British do things.
That is why I said I am a European and not British, thanks for telling me what I just said I surely would not have known had you not repeated it lol

Yes I do knock how the British do certain things, and I knock how the French, Italian and other Europeans do some of what they do as you would see if you read everything I write.
Ever thought about wandering back to the European place you are obviously so much more fond of than Britain. dunno

Yea no real answer to this one, I live in Europe in the state of England, how can I wander back to the place I am already living in.
Hates London with a passion and dislikes the British way. No wonder I want out of Europe.
No I hate how Londoners in general are treated and overcharged in the states sub-capital (the main capital now being in Brussels)and yes I hate how SOME Londoners believe that the world ends there that everything in the state of Britain should be in London no matter what the reasons put forward for anything to be otherwise, for example the National Footbal arena being built in Wembley which caused a delay in it's rebuilding, an attempted rates rip off by Wembley Council, a lack of funding despite a Birmingham/Coventry bid being ready to go with full planning and financial backing already in place at the time, the final arena was a fraction of the facilities offered by the Brum/Cov bid.
There seems to be a lot of confusion here that the United Kingdom or Great Britain is a Country or group of Countries anymore, it or we are simply a member state of Europe abiding (as many of you have told me in this thread) by the laws, rules and guidlines laid down by the EU in Brussels.

17 Nov 2012

so does your passport say European jed??

17 Nov 2012

Mine does :thumbup:
At the top - European Union

17 Nov 2012

Quote by Lizaleanrob
so does your passport say European jed??

I think you got your answer there, new passports issued say European Union lol

But strange how the advocates of obeying European Law are against the fact that we ARE a European State governed by the EU ? did someone say to me earlier "you cannot have it both ways and only choose to obey the laws you want to"
Confused perhaps ? hypocrits even ? choosing the bits that suit them at the very least !
I remember a long time ago official forms had to have my Country of Origin as British/English, my daughter born in Londonderry was British/NI, I had friends who were British/Scottish and others who were British/Welsh, those same forms now require us to write UK Citizen that makes me exactly the same as my partner Sasha who having lived in the UK for the last 20+ years also has to write UK Citizen, despite the fact that she holds dual passports inherited from her Russian Father (a Russian passport) and her Lithuanian Mother (a Lithuanian passport) she is without doubt a UK Citizen residing here but not holding a British (or European Union) passport (she also has a UK issued National Insurance number).

17 Nov 2012

If you'd like to develop this aspect further, last time I filled in a UK census form, I wasn't allowed to say that I was English, only British but the Welsh and and Scottish were allowed to say where they were born.

17 Nov 2012

Quote by GnV
If you'd like to develop this aspect further, last time I filled in a UK census form, I wasn't allowed to say that I was English, only British but the Welsh and and Scottish were allowed to say where they were born.

Now that is just wrong perhaps even racist

17 Nov 2012

So the referal to us brits can only be a mistake on your part then jed!!
As our passports no longer state we are british, what you should have said was us northern europeans (you included ) dunno

17 Nov 2012

Quote by Lizaleanrob
i always see star as an arsenal supporter G

More blue than red Rob. :lol:

18 Nov 2012

Quote by Lizaleanrob
So the referal to us brits can only be a mistake on your part then jed!!
As our passports no longer state we are british, what you should have said was us northern europeans (you included )

No I mean those who think they are still British ruled by Britain and not by Europe as europeans lol

18 Nov 2012

Quote by MidsCouple24
So the referal to us brits can only be a mistake on your part then jed!!
As our passports no longer state we are british, what you should have said was us northern europeans (you included )

No I mean those who think they are still British ruled by Britain and not by Europe as europeans lol

Well soon you can go back to your real roots Mids, as when Scotland vote for their independence of which I hope they get, you can then naff off to a Scotland free from all the pitfalls of living in Britain and being British.
You can then be a true Scot in Scotland, ruled by Europe. A kind of Scottish European.:bounce: For me I cannot wait until a day comes when the Irish and the Welsh and the Scots are no longer, anyway involved with the UK.:thumbup:

18 Nov 2012

I did think Scotland was in fact a part of Great Britain? So people born in either of Scotland, Lancashire, and Cumbria would still have a legitimate claim to a British passport.

18 Nov 2012

Quote by Robert400andKay
I did think Scotland was in fact a part of Great Britain? So people born in either of Scotland, Lancashire, and Cumbria would still have a legitimate claim to a British passport.

You're absolutely right :thumbup:
I think star meant English... Even though, legally, you cannot be English, only British.
Confusing, isn't it
Much easier to be European :lol2:

18 Nov 2012

I would love for Britain to leave the EU, I do not want to be a European I want to be an Englishman living in Great Britain a Country I would like to share with the other great nations of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
Northern Europeans ? methinks GOOGLE MAPS is needed here, Lithuania is quite North as is Poland and other member states, Britain would be more South East and without checking the list of European states probably the most Southerly state of the EU.
Typical of the people of this Island though, we cannot even accept being European we have to divide that into Northern European, Southern European East and West. I wonder if the Politicians of the EU will one day move the borders to benefit the voting system and like Lancashire and Cumbria we people living in Italy suddenly find they live in Turkey or Greece, Spannish being Portugese etc wink

18 Nov 2012

Quote by MidsCouple24
... Lithuania is quite North as is Poland and other member states, Britain would be more South East and without checking the list of European states probably the most Southerly state of the EU.....

If you look Vilnius is on about the same latitude as Hull smile

.

18 Nov 2012

Quote by GnV
I did think Scotland was in fact a part of Great Britain? So people born in either of Scotland, Lancashire, and Cumbria would still have a legitimate claim to a British passport.

You're absolutely right :thumbup:
I think star meant English... Even though, legally, you cannot be English, only British.
Confusing, isn't it
Much easier to be European :lol2:
Not confusing at all GnV, seems you have been away too long.

I have refused to fill out the census forms over the last 30 years but I did fill in the last one in what was it now 2010 or 2011?
But I understand how easily it is to be confused as before this, the Welsh were well..... Welsh, and the Scots were indeed..... Scottish and in Ireland you were rightly..... Irish, but in good old England you were ermmmmmmmmmmm...............British. loon

:loon:
Obviously I think the people who thought this up are huge :wanker::wanker: of the highest order, but even in good old England it seems common sense at last has prevailed. I am no more British than than the last group hiding on a lorry that will soon be British,as there is a huge difference being born a few miles away from the Bow bells, and am nothing other than an Englishman and no politician on pc correct Guardian scholar will tell me any different. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
Now cannot be any clearer than that GnV wink

18 Nov 2012

Quote by starlightcouple
I did think Scotland was in fact a part of Great Britain? So people born in either of Scotland, Lancashire, and Cumbria would still have a legitimate claim to a British passport.

You're absolutely right :thumbup:
I think star meant English... Even though, legally, you cannot be English, only British.
Confusing, isn't it
Much easier to be European :lol2:
Not confusing at all GnV, seems you have been away too long.

I have refused to fill out the census forms over the last 30 years but I did fill in the last one in what was it now 2010 or 2011?
But I understand how easily it is to be confused as before this, the Welsh were well..... Welsh, and the Scots were indeed..... Scottish and in Ireland you were rightly..... Irish, but in good old England you were ermmmmmmmmmmm...............British. loon

:loon:
Obviously I think the people who thought this up are huge :wanker::wanker: of the highest order, but even in good old England it seems common sense at last has prevailed. I am no more British than than the last group hiding on a lorry that will soon be British,as there is a huge difference being born a few miles away from the Bow bells, and am nothing other than an Englishman and no politician on pc correct Guardian scholar will tell me any different. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
Now cannot be any clearer than that GnV wink

So YOU have an English passport then star when everyone else has a European Union one issued in the United Kingdom dunno

There is a place called England for sure, but the British live there...

18 Nov 2012

but I still say kick the bastard out lol

18 Nov 2012

Quote by MidsCouple24
but I still say kick the bastard out

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: could not agree more!