Has the truth finally come out?
I had reservations about the first inquiry but this one seems to be more in depth. I still think they have missed certain bits though.
Dave_Notts
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Bloody Sunday
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Warming the Bed
people forget that there was bloody monday and bloody friday that year aswell.
bad done on all sides that year. also the british inteligency found that the houses oposite a catholic estate hand tones of bombs ready to put next to said catholics houses in the middle of the night and the biritsh army stopped that.
saving hundreds of lives.
people forget !!
at last there is some kinda peace, for all concerned.
bad done on all sides that year. also the british inteligency found that the houses oposite a catholic estate hand tones of bombs ready to put next to said catholics houses in the middle of the night and the biritsh army stopped that.
saving hundreds of lives.
people forget !!
at last there is some kinda peace, for all concerned.
The only problem that I have Davey is that there will now be a witch hunt to try and bring those soldiers into a court.
My problem is that some of the worst killers in the IRA have since been released well earlier under the Good Friday agreement.
How ironic would it be for past soldiers to find themselves in jail, whilst some of the worst of terrorists walk free.
James Martin Pacelli McGuinness along with Jerry Adams are killers pure and simple, and the question I would like answered is did he have that machine gun and more importantly did he use it? In my opinion he did and is as guilty as any other IRA terrorist, but like Adams hid behind the political wing.
Yes I think they have got it almost right with the enquiry, but to bring soldiers personally to task and into a court after 38 years would be the wrong thing to do.
Terrorists of old that should be in prison are walking the streets, that in my opinion is a kick in the teeth for the families who were murdered by the IRA.
My problem is that some of the worst killers in the IRA have since been released well earlier under the Good Friday agreement.
How ironic would it be for past soldiers to find themselves in jail, whilst some of the worst of terrorists walk free.
James Martin Pacelli McGuinness along with Jerry Adams are killers pure and simple, and the question I would like answered is did he have that machine gun and more importantly did he use it? In my opinion he did and is as guilty as any other IRA terrorist, but like Adams hid behind the political wing.
Yes I think they have got it almost right with the enquiry, but to bring soldiers personally to task and into a court after 38 years would be the wrong thing to do.
Terrorists of old that should be in prison are walking the streets, that in my opinion is a kick in the teeth for the families who were murdered by the IRA.
Sometimes the only way forward demands sacrifice of principle and life.
You have to consider the greater good.
And the information gathering has not been stopped, the "intelligence" has been accumulated over the years and will continue.
Neither side believes that the "troubles" have been stopped, just suspended.
You have to consider the greater good.
And the information gathering has not been stopped, the "intelligence" has been accumulated over the years and will continue.
Neither side believes that the "troubles" have been stopped, just suspended.
Sex God
One difference though Kent is that IRA killers, and their Loyalist equivalents, have by and large had their day in court, and been convicted and sentenced. Their actions were always deemed to be criminal, and their victims were always deemed to be victims.
That is not true of the Paras, who we now know fired on innocent civilians, most of whom were kids at the time. Their actions were never deemed to be criminal, and in an effort to cover-up the truth it was the victims who were cast as the criminals that day. It is that that above all else has caused such anger over the years.
I think it most unlikely that there will be prosecutions of the actual squaddies who fired that day. For one thing, I'm not sure there's the demand for it. I hope that the public ackowledgement of the truth at long last will be enough to bring some kind of closure for the families of the victims, that they have waited so long for. I also think that the British Govt would prefer to keep some things, that might come out as part of a defence, secret a while longer just yet, and I reckon they'd be a tad worried that prosecuting those on the ground that day might just open up the possibility of further prosecutions that go higher up the command chain, possibly even as far as government and the civil service. Can't quite see it somehow.
N x x x ;)
That is not true of the Paras, who we now know fired on innocent civilians, most of whom were kids at the time. Their actions were never deemed to be criminal, and in an effort to cover-up the truth it was the victims who were cast as the criminals that day. It is that that above all else has caused such anger over the years.
I think it most unlikely that there will be prosecutions of the actual squaddies who fired that day. For one thing, I'm not sure there's the demand for it. I hope that the public ackowledgement of the truth at long last will be enough to bring some kind of closure for the families of the victims, that they have waited so long for. I also think that the British Govt would prefer to keep some things, that might come out as part of a defence, secret a while longer just yet, and I reckon they'd be a tad worried that prosecuting those on the ground that day might just open up the possibility of further prosecutions that go higher up the command chain, possibly even as far as government and the civil service. Can't quite see it somehow.
N x x x ;)
To be a soldier on a battle field must be scary. You know you can be attacked at any time, but at least the other side have a uniform, even if they hide and shoot from cover.
To be a soldier when anyone could shot at you, having to stand in the open and control the crowd while you know others want you dead.
The IRA admitted to firing shots earlier that day. All the soldiers knew that. What would you do when you are then shot at?..or was it just a bomb, or a door, or a firework. Yes people get shot by accident. It is sad. Can you really blame a soldier for being scared?
..and please do not tell me, you expect more of them that you do yourself.
Travis
To be a soldier when anyone could shot at you, having to stand in the open and control the crowd while you know others want you dead.
The IRA admitted to firing shots earlier that day. All the soldiers knew that. What would you do when you are then shot at?..or was it just a bomb, or a door, or a firework. Yes people get shot by accident. It is sad. Can you really blame a soldier for being scared?
..and please do not tell me, you expect more of them that you do yourself.
Travis
Sex God
Sorry , and you too Flower, but yes, I would expect more from an outfit that prides itself on being the best-trained, most highly-motivated, most professional regiment in the British Army than I would expect from myself, in the same way that I would expect more from them than I would expect of criminal organisations like the I.R.A.
The Saville report is clear on this. With the possible exception of one, all those who were shot and killed that day were unarmed civilians. They were unlawfully killed. The enquiry "found no instances where it appeared to us that soldiers either were or might have been justified in firing" and "despite the contrary evidence given by soldiers, we have concluded that none of them fired in response to attacks or threatened attacks by nail or petrol bombers." Some of those soldiers, having shot those fleeing the scene in the back, or on the ground while mortally wounded, "forgetting or ignoring their instructions and training and with a serious and widespread loss of fire discipline" then "knowingly put forward false accounts" afterwards. If they had done nothing wrong, and knew they had done nothing wrong, why did they lie? And if the actions of the Paras that day had been all perfectly reasonable and understandable, why then did the Govt itself collude in the whitewash that was the Widgery report?
There can be no excuse for that. Being scared certainly doesn't excuse it, but please note, nowhere have I suggested that the individual soldiers who fired on those civilians that day be prosecuted. I think the main purpose of the report is to put right the massive disservice done to the dead by the British Govt, when in it's desperation it knowingly chose to put forward the bare-faced lie that the dead that day deserved what they got, and it's probably time to move on.
Neil x x x ;)
The Saville report is clear on this. With the possible exception of one, all those who were shot and killed that day were unarmed civilians. They were unlawfully killed. The enquiry "found no instances where it appeared to us that soldiers either were or might have been justified in firing" and "despite the contrary evidence given by soldiers, we have concluded that none of them fired in response to attacks or threatened attacks by nail or petrol bombers." Some of those soldiers, having shot those fleeing the scene in the back, or on the ground while mortally wounded, "forgetting or ignoring their instructions and training and with a serious and widespread loss of fire discipline" then "knowingly put forward false accounts" afterwards. If they had done nothing wrong, and knew they had done nothing wrong, why did they lie? And if the actions of the Paras that day had been all perfectly reasonable and understandable, why then did the Govt itself collude in the whitewash that was the Widgery report?
There can be no excuse for that. Being scared certainly doesn't excuse it, but please note, nowhere have I suggested that the individual soldiers who fired on those civilians that day be prosecuted. I think the main purpose of the report is to put right the massive disservice done to the dead by the British Govt, when in it's desperation it knowingly chose to put forward the bare-faced lie that the dead that day deserved what they got, and it's probably time to move on.
Neil x x x ;)
Sex God
Quote by flower411
To be a soldier on a battle field must be scary. You know you can be attacked at any time, but at least the other side have a uniform, even if they hide and shoot from cover.
To be a soldier when anyone could shot at you, having to stand in the open and control the crowd while you know others want you dead.
The IRA admitted to firing shots earlier that day. All the soldiers knew that. What would you do when you are then shot at?..or was it just a bomb, or a door, or a firework. Yes people get shot by accident. It is sad. Can you really blame a soldier for being scared?
..and please do not tell me, you expect more of them that you do yourself.
Travis
I do expect more of them than I do of myself .....I expect them to kill people who want to kill me and put their own lives on the line in the process !!
When the enemy hides themselves amongst civilians and people get killed, it`s as much their fault as the person that pulled the trigger. Individual soldiers should not face prosecution.
It seems to me that the main problem is not that a group of young scared men shot into a crowd of innocent protestors (tragic and wrong though that is )but that their superiors thought that the best response to this, was to lie through their teeth about the circumstances and do their level best to make sure that the families of the dead never discovered the truth about their loved ones deaths.
Quote by Staggerlee_BB
To be a soldier on a battle field must be scary. You know you can be attacked at any time, but at least the other side have a uniform, even if they hide and shoot from cover.
To be a soldier when anyone could shot at you, having to stand in the open and control the crowd while you know others want you dead.
The IRA admitted to firing shots earlier that day. All the soldiers knew that. What would you do when you are then shot at?..or was it just a bomb, or a door, or a firework. Yes people get shot by accident. It is sad. Can you really blame a soldier for being scared?
..and please do not tell me, you expect more of them that you do yourself.
Travis
I do expect more of them than I do of myself .....I expect them to kill people who want to kill me and put their own lives on the line in the process !!
When the enemy hides themselves amongst civilians and people get killed, it`s as much their fault as the person that pulled the trigger. Individual soldiers should not face prosecution.
It seems to me that the main problem is not that a group of young scared men shot into a crowd of innocent protestors (tragic and wrong though that is )but that their superiors thought that the best response to this, was to lie through their teeth about the circumstances and do their level best to make sure that the families of the dead never discovered the truth about their loved ones deaths.
I am with you Staggerlee.
The truth is tragic, ugly, hurtful and still very painful to this day in Derry, but lies are unforgivable. These were innocent protestors not armed men. This more so than ever is obvious following this report. A soldier may have been scared but what threat is a man crawling to safety with his back to a soldier, why shoot this man, a father of six ? The bullets killed people but the lies tore apart families and communities for far too long. Please God the familes of those innocently killed and those injured on that hideous day in history can rest more easily knowing the 'truth' (or as much as we are ever likely to know).
I do wonder how many of those that were killed on that day, would have gone on to become members of the IRA, whose sole purpose was to kill as many British soldiers as they could?
Not that that is an excuse but maybe just maybe a British ex soldier or an innocent civilian is alive today, that maybe might not have been.
They were certainly not innocents on that day, but certainly did not deserve to die in the way that they did.
Not that that is an excuse but maybe just maybe a British ex soldier or an innocent civilian is alive today, that maybe might not have been.
They were certainly not innocents on that day, but certainly did not deserve to die in the way that they did.
Sex God
Quote by kentswingers777
I do wonder how many of those that were killed on that day, would have gone on to become members of the IRA, whose sole purpose was to kill as many British soldiers as they could?
Not that that is an excuse but maybe just maybe a British ex soldier or an innocent civilian is alive today, that maybe might not have been.
They were certainly not innocents on that day, but certainly did not deserve to die in the way that they did.
And what were they guilty of ??Loitering with an Irish accent ?
Quote by kentswingers777
I do wonder how many of those that were killed on that day, would have gone on to become members of the IRA, whose sole purpose was to kill as many British soldiers as they could?
Not that that is an excuse but maybe just maybe a British ex soldier or an innocent civilian is alive today, that maybe might not have been.
They were certainly not innocents on that day, but certainly did not deserve to die in the way that they did.
I wonder how many would have gone on to be fathers and grandfathers but for a few soldiers who, were meant to protect the people of Northern Ireland killed them ? Many were fathers already leaving young children fatherless
I also wonder how many more people joined terrorist groups (on both sides) as a result of Bloody Sunday ? Feeling is so strong now, imagine living with that in Derry 38 yrs ago.
We could wonder and speculate forever but we cannot change the result of that day. 14 innocent people died as a result of 25 minutes of shooting from the British Army, they were ordered to arrest the marchers not kill them.
Sex God
Quote by kentswingers777
I do wonder how many of those that were killed on that day, would have gone on to become members of the IRA, whose sole purpose was to kill as many British soldiers as they could?
Tom Cruise says no!
;)Allow me to make light there Kenty of a singularly nasty use of logic there, if I may? We might have killed unarmed kids, but honest gov, we only shot them to stop 'em growing up cos they might have turned into terrorists? WTF?
Unless you mean how many previously unpoliticised naive young innocents turned up at the recruiting officer's front door the next day? Probably lots, according to the histories I've read. Whether any of them would have turned up had it not been for Bloody Sunday is impossible to judge, but I suspect the IRA would have remained a standing joke in the Catholic community ((( I.R.A. = I Ran Away ))) with next to no real popular support had it not been for Bloody Sunday, and the history of these islands over the following 30 odd years might have been somewhat different?
N x x x ;)
Whatever may or may not have happened peace in Northern Ireland exists, and for that we can all be thankful.
Surmising as to the why's and wherefores of what may have happened, the facts are that there is peace at last. Long may it continue.
I for one hope that no soldiers are brought to task as I think it will actually serve no purpose, other than to possibly stir up the hatred all over again and maybe start the troubles up again.
Peace there may well be, but it is a fragile peace all the same.
Surmising as to the why's and wherefores of what may have happened, the facts are that there is peace at last. Long may it continue.
I for one hope that no soldiers are brought to task as I think it will actually serve no purpose, other than to possibly stir up the hatred all over again and maybe start the troubles up again.
Peace there may well be, but it is a fragile peace all the same.
Sex God
If everything was to be accepted and equalled then somewhere along the line a retired officer should be hauled into a Court Martial and be sentenced. At the same time maybe we could grab all the Irish terrorists that killed men women and children and sentence them as well.
A murderer is a murderer, a killer is a killer. No arguement there.
But please don't try and badge the para's of that day in the same bracket as those serving today. Many of those serving back then were national servicemen and the Para's themselves were certainly not considered in anything like the way they are now.
I make no excuses for what happened, but the simple truth is that we were not there on that day. We did not see anyone through our foresights and we never felt any emotions, be they fear, anxiety, hatred or whatever.
So who are we to judge?
A murderer is a murderer, a killer is a killer. No arguement there.
But please don't try and badge the para's of that day in the same bracket as those serving today. Many of those serving back then were national servicemen and the Para's themselves were certainly not considered in anything like the way they are now.
I make no excuses for what happened, but the simple truth is that we were not there on that day. We did not see anyone through our foresights and we never felt any emotions, be they fear, anxiety, hatred or whatever.
So who are we to judge?
Sex God
as with any other inquiry its a piece of glossed over fiction designed to keep most people happy with the findings
the victims families can now sue ,the government move away from public pressure
job done as most seem happy with the outcome :dry:
the victims families can now sue ,the government move away from public pressure
job done as most seem happy with the outcome :dry:
Warming the Bed
Hopefully this report will bring to a close this sad day in our history.
Yes what happened was wrong but will dragging soldiers into court now really wont help anyone.
It is not going to bring any of them back and will just rake over a fire that should be out and kept out.
Yes what happened was wrong but will dragging soldiers into court now really wont help anyone.
It is not going to bring any of them back and will just rake over a fire that should be out and kept out.
