Do you think it is time to bring back Capital 't it time we should deal with these sick individuals who go around killing young girls,cutting them up & doing all sorts of depraved things to to are getting too soft in this country,you kill someone you do a little stretch inside,they are giving all the comforts while kind of punishment is that?.What punishment would you want if they killed a loved one of yours?.
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Capital Punishment
No No No
We are civilised, and if we revert to killing them, then we are no better than they are. You are taking yourself down to their level. What you are asking for is revenge, not justice. It has been proven time and time again, that Capital punishment is not a deterrent. In places where it has been introduced, the murder rate has not been reduced, and in some cases has actually increased. As with all crime, the only real deterrent is a higher detection and conviction rate.
You look at terrorist murderers, and they will see themselves as a Martyr if punishment was death. We also have the problem of wrongful conviction. We have seen in the past that many convictions that looked rock solid at the time, have now been shown to be unsafe.
I am all for making prison, less comfortable, and for making sentences longer. But as far as I am concerned I nor anyone else has the right to take someone's life.
Justice...not...Revenge.
We are civilised, and if we revert to killing them, then we are no better than they are. You are taking yourself down to their level. What you are asking for is revenge, not justice. It has been proven time and time again, that Capital punishment is not a deterrent. In places where it has been introduced, the murder rate has not been reduced, and in some cases has actually increased. As with all crime, the only real deterrent is a higher detection and conviction rate.
You look at terrorist murderers, and they will see themselves as a Martyr if punishment was death. We also have the problem of wrongful conviction. We have seen in the past that many convictions that looked rock solid at the time, have now been shown to be unsafe.
I am all for making prison, less comfortable, and for making sentences longer. But as far as I am concerned I nor anyone else has the right to take someone's life.
Justice...not...Revenge.
Sex God
I agree with Deancannock
There's something I never thought I'd say
There's something I never thought I'd say
Sex God
Quote by deancannock
I agree with Deancannock
There's something I never thought I'd say
ffs....you mellowing in your old age !!!! xx
I think I am.
Gone are the days when I would have suggested hanging them high or sticking heads on spikes on London Bridge!
Soft and fluffy, I am now
A (teeney weeney) bit off topic but I was amazed to read in the Wail on Line the other morning that an out of work labourer was fined £500 quid for swallowing a live GOLDFISH with the usual victims fee, mandatory unpaid work for the community, etc etc when, on the same day some some excuse for a human being is patted on the head and told to be a good boy in future for beating some poor old pensioner to within an inch of her life for her measly pension!
If that is British justice, you can keep it...
If that is British justice, you can keep it...
I agree with Dean on the Capital Punishment front ;) However I do think that the prison system should no longer be a soft option - it's practically like a hotel in some of them, the food is a million times better than the NHS and they have access to television etc.
Now as for sex offenders my opinion changes somewhat, chop their bits off and put them on top of a mountain in some desert somewhere to be pecked to death by vultures and even that's too good for them
Now as for sex offenders my opinion changes somewhat, chop their bits off and put them on top of a mountain in some desert somewhere to be pecked to death by vultures and even that's too good for them
Sex God
Quote by bluexxx
Soft and fluffy, I am now
Blue? Blue! Soft and fluffy?
I'll decline to take part in the debate. We all have our opinions, and on matters like this they tend to be rather strong. It'll end in tears, I tell you.
Quote by deancannock
No No No
We are civilised, and if we revert to killing them, then we are no better than they are. You are taking yourself down to their level. What you are asking for is revenge, not justice. It has been proven time and time again, that Capital punishment is not a deterrent. In places where it has been introduced, the murder rate has not been reduced, and in some cases has actually increased. As with all crime, the only real deterrent is a higher detection and conviction rate.
You look at terrorist murderers, and they will see themselves as a Martyr if punishment was death. We also have the problem of wrongful conviction. We have seen in the past that many convictions that looked rock solid at the time, have now been shown to be unsafe.
I am all for making prison, less comfortable, and for making sentences longer. But as far as I am concerned I nor anyone else has the right to take someone's life.
Justice...not...Revenge.
First off, I don't advocate the use of the Death Penalty
Your arguments/pov's are the usual mainstream claptrap handed down to the masses for them to then use as their arguments.
I don't see the death penalty as revenge, but instead an enforcement procedure applicable by the crime committed, the state has no interest in revenge.
As with all crime, the only real deterrent is a higher detection and conviction rate. Really?
The murder rate has been falling for sometime, Shipman's 170+ alleged murders distorted things for a while but the murder rate is down and conviction rate high remembering that 66% (probably higher) of murders are committed by family members or persons known to the victim.
Wrongful conviction? just awful but on it's own it's not a valid enough reason for the DP to be dissed in it's entirety.
As for the 20th century addition to the mainstream 'reasons for not' re 'terrorists' and their thirst for achieving Martyrdom? Presumably you mean Muslim Terrorists? (you shudda just said) I'm sure it needs no reminding that terrorists (whatever that really means, do you have the correct interpretation?) come in all shapes and sizes, IRA, ETA where 'Martyrdom does not seem to figure so high on their radar.
If the crime committed warrants the DP and the DP is in force then no consideration should be given to the condemned and what status they think they'll be achieving when the 'Guvnor' requests them switched on to the National Grid for a few, Timothy McVeigh referred to it as state assisted suicide? For me they're just 'dead'
I do think the idea of the DP should be visited again (but I doubt it will) the world has changed much in the last 20+ years, human life seems almost worthless to some, where they fear little and will stop at nothing to maim or kill innocents. The DP isn't a deterrent to these kinds of people but it's a sure fire way of removing them from the game, period.
As everyday citizens we've become immune to the heinous crime of murder, it positively saturates our lives, one only has to read the paper or grab the BBC Headlines to read it, Yuk! Why should we keep people incarcerated for decades? What really is the point?
should put them on an island like in the film no escape and let them kill each other.
we are too soft on criminals full stop, there is no fear in punishment anymore.
people are like animals.
you see lioness in the wild chastise her cubs and humans are no different.
they only understand the pain they cause when they recieve it.
anyone committing a sex crime if found guilty and the evidence is concrete should recieve a punishment fitting to the nightmare their victim has to live with forever.
if they are released tattoo the fuckers forehead so everyone sees what they truely are.
i would not bat an eyelid if glitter and them disgusting mp's on that dossier were beaten to death. id happily pay for the blood transfusion so the fuckers could last for more kickings.
look at india. gang rapes all the time and the men think its perfectly fine! nuke em.
we are too soft on criminals full stop, there is no fear in punishment anymore.
people are like animals.
you see lioness in the wild chastise her cubs and humans are no different.
they only understand the pain they cause when they recieve it.
anyone committing a sex crime if found guilty and the evidence is concrete should recieve a punishment fitting to the nightmare their victim has to live with forever.
if they are released tattoo the fuckers forehead so everyone sees what they truely are.
i would not bat an eyelid if glitter and them disgusting mp's on that dossier were beaten to death. id happily pay for the blood transfusion so the fuckers could last for more kickings.
look at india. gang rapes all the time and the men think its perfectly fine! nuke em.
Sex God
Over the years I have mellowed on this subject.
The death penalty doesn't work as a deterrent and to be honest it appears to be more costly than whole life sentences.
Look at some of these cases in America where people can live on 'death row' for 20 years or more, fighting appeal after appeal and running up the states bill time and time again.
The Human Rights Act precludes us from using the death penalty anyway, and no political party will bring the subject up. So things will remain the same for many years to come.
The death penalty doesn't work as a deterrent and to be honest it appears to be more costly than whole life sentences.
Look at some of these cases in America where people can live on 'death row' for 20 years or more, fighting appeal after appeal and running up the states bill time and time again.
The Human Rights Act precludes us from using the death penalty anyway, and no political party will bring the subject up. So things will remain the same for many years to come.
Sex God
Quote by Toots
As everyday citizens we've become immune to the heinous crime of murder, it positively saturates our lives, one only has to read the paper or grab the BBC Headlines to read it, Yuk! Why should we keep people incarcerated for decades? What really is the point?
It say's so much about the society that we now live in...... to be honest i no longer buy news papers and now watch little news because of the way we as so called civilised people have become
you are so spot on toots with the fact we are no longer outraged by this type of crime unless it directly effects our own lives
Quote by Toots
First off, I don't advocate the use of the Death Penalty
Your arguments/pov's are the usual mainstream claptrap handed down to the masses for them to then use as their arguments.
I don't see the death penalty as revenge, but instead an enforcement procedure applicable by the crime committed, the state has no interest in revenge.
As with all crime, the only real deterrent is a higher detection and conviction rate. Really?
The murder rate has been falling for sometime, Shipman's 170+ alleged murders distorted things for a while but the murder rate is down and conviction rate high remembering that 66% (probably higher) of murders are committed by family members or persons known to the victim.
Wrongful conviction? just awful but on it's own it's not a valid enough reason for the DP to be dissed in it's entirety.
As for the 20th century addition to the mainstream 'reasons for not' re 'terrorists' and their thirst for achieving Martyrdom? Presumably you mean Muslim Terrorists? (you shudda just said) I'm sure it needs no reminding that terrorists (whatever that really means, do you have the correct interpretation?) come in all shapes and sizes, IRA, ETA where 'Martyrdom does not seem to figure so high on their radar.
If the crime committed warrants the DP and the DP is in force then no consideration should be given to the condemned and what status they think they'll be achieving when the 'Guvnor' requests them switched on to the National Grid for a few, Timothy McVeigh referred to it as state assisted suicide? For me they're just 'dead'
I do think the idea of the DP should be visited again (but I doubt it will) the world has changed much in the last 20+ years, human life seems almost worthless to some, where they fear little and will stop at nothing to maim or kill innocents. The DP isn't a deterrent to these kinds of people but it's a sure fire way of removing them from the game, period.
As everyday citizens we've become immune to the heinous crime of murder, it positively saturates our lives, one only has to read the paper or grab the BBC Headlines to read it, Yuk! Why should we keep people incarcerated for decades? What really is the point?
I'm sorry Toots but I totally disagree with your post and the analogies you have used to back up your argument.
You state that "The murder rate has been falling for sometime" and then state "it positively saturates our lives" so which is it, less murder or more? It only feel like its more because the ability to report it is easier and it is reported faster. The crimes committed today are nomore heinous than those that were committed in the 70's.
Death Penalty has always been a revenge penalty. It is to pacify the lust of the individuals who are affected by the crime whether directly affected or indirectly. State has to divorce itself away from the lust of the citizen or else subjective decisions are made instead of objective ones.
I agree that Judges need to be less soft or seen to be less soft than they have of late, but unless we are present in court and hear every piece of evidence and the mitigating circumstances, we can not really comment on why a particular decision has been taken its also apparent that media will report with their editorial bias to sensationalise an item.
A very interesting documentary was done by Michael Portillo regarding the death penalty, I urge you all to watch it, it is available on You Tube.
Regards
Rogue
Quote by Toots
No No No
We are civilised, and if we revert to killing them, then we are no better than they are. You are taking yourself down to their level. What you are asking for is revenge, not justice. It has been proven time and time again, that Capital punishment is not a deterrent. In places where it has been introduced, the murder rate has not been reduced, and in some cases has actually increased. As with all crime, the only real deterrent is a higher detection and conviction rate.
You look at terrorist murderers, and they will see themselves as a Martyr if punishment was death. We also have the problem of wrongful conviction. We have seen in the past that many convictions that looked rock solid at the time, have now been shown to be unsafe.
I am all for making prison, less comfortable, and for making sentences longer. But as far as I am concerned I nor anyone else has the right to take someone's life.
Justice...not...Revenge.
First off, I don't advocate the use of the Death Penalty
Your arguments/pov's are the usual mainstream claptrap handed down to the masses for them to then use as their arguments.
I don't see the death penalty as revenge, but instead an enforcement procedure applicable by the crime committed, the state has no interest in revenge.
As with all crime, the only real deterrent is a higher detection and conviction rate. Really?
The murder rate has been falling for sometime, Shipman's 170+ alleged murders distorted things for a while but the murder rate is down and conviction rate high remembering that 66% (probably higher) of murders are committed by family members or persons known to the victim.
Wrongful conviction? just awful but on it's own it's not a valid enough reason for the DP to be dissed in it's entirety.
As for the 20th century addition to the mainstream 'reasons for not' re 'terrorists' and their thirst for achieving Martyrdom? Presumably you mean Muslim Terrorists? (you shudda just said) I'm sure it needs no reminding that terrorists (whatever that really means, do you have the correct interpretation?) come in all shapes and sizes, IRA, ETA where 'Martyrdom does not seem to figure so high on their radar.
If the crime committed warrants the DP and the DP is in force then no consideration should be given to the condemned and what status they think they'll be achieving when the 'Guvnor' requests them switched on to the National Grid for a few, Timothy McVeigh referred to it as state assisted suicide? For me they're just 'dead'
I do think the idea of the DP should be visited again (but I doubt it will) the world has changed much in the last 20+ years, human life seems almost worthless to some, where they fear little and will stop at nothing to maim or kill innocents. The DP isn't a deterrent to these kinds of people but it's a sure fire way of removing them from the game, period.
As everyday citizens we've become immune to the heinous crime of murder, it positively saturates our lives, one only has to read the paper or grab the BBC Headlines to read it, Yuk! Why should we keep people incarcerated for decades? What really is the point?
what a total condescending post. Its a fact that the death penalty is not a deterrent, as all figures have ever shown. So apart from revenge what other motive do you have for killing another human being. If it was wrong for them to take a life, then why should it be right for anyone else to ??
As I stated and Rogue has confirmed, the real deterrent is a higher detection and conviction rate.
You also say I meant Muslim terrorists, and should of just said. I didn't say that as terrorists come in many forms all over the world. So no...stop being condescending. I meant terrorists, be that IRA, ETA, ISIS or any other organisation that kills for its cause. As I stated I do not believe anyone has the right to take someone else's life.
You dismiss wrongful conviction as just one of those things !! Maybe if it was yourself in the wrong place at the wrong time, you may not dismiss it so flippantly. One person wrongly killed, would be one person to many.
You start by saying you " don't advocate the use of the death penalty "
You finish by saying " why should we keep people incarcerated for decades ? What really is the point? "
So where is the option between these two then ???
I say again...Justice not Revenge
Quote by Rogue_Trader
I'm sorry Toots but I totally disagree with your post and the analogies you have used to back up your argument.
You state that "The murder rate has been falling for sometime" and then state "it positively saturates our lives" so which is it, less murder or more? It only feel like its more because the ability to report it is easier and it is reported faster. The crimes committed today are nomore heinous than those that were committed in the 70's.
There is nothing to disagree with Rogue? the murder rate is falling and it does saturate our lives, in essence it's both and they do co-exist without being contradictory. *confused look*
Quote by Rogue_Trader
Death Penalty has always been a revenge penalty.
That is your own personal opinion, it may well be the case for the family of the victim but in the case of the state it is simply a punishment to fit the crime, murder being the ultimate crime, execution by the state being the ultimate penalty. Prison is to punish and rehabilitate, it could be said that those committing per-meditated murder may be seen as not falling within the realms of rehabilitation and that letting them live is not punishment enough?
Quote by deancannock
As I stated and Rogue has confirmed, the real deterrent is a higher detection and conviction rate.
Ahh, so cos Rogue confirmed what you said then it has to be right? *laughing* , let it be written let it be said *snort*
You're seriously coming up short if you think the suicide bombers of (7/7) or those that slaughtered Lee Riley were worried about being detected or convicted, one lot took themselves out of the conviction stage by committing suicide at the same time as murdering others and the two that murdered Lee Riley pretty much waited to be arrested, yup, they sure looked deterred.
If the death penalty isn't such a deterrent how is it that just about every prisoner on Death Row in the US goes through the appeals process in an effort to get it overturned?
Quote by deancannock
You also say I meant Muslim terrorists, and should of just said. I didn't say that as terrorists come in many forms all over the world. So no...stop being condescending. I meant terrorists, be that IRA, ETA, ISIS or any other organisation that kills for its cause.
You can wriggle as much as you like but your point was obvious, matters not and going on from that and seeing as you've mentioned ETA and the IRA, if you could point me to where their members have gone on to achieve Martyrdom in the context in which you describe? Of course there 'may' be a few notable exceptions but generally speaking Martyrdom is an idealogy that the afore mentioned tend not to practice.
Quote by deancannock
You dismiss wrongful conviction as just one of those things !! Maybe if it was yourself in the wrong place at the wrong time, you may not dismiss it so flippantly. One person wrongly killed, would be one person to many.
It's called miscarriage of justice, it happens all the time, same as in war with 'friendly fire' regrettable, just awful, not nice and pretty loathsome but it's a casualty of war.
Quote by deancannock
You start by saying you " don't advocate the use of the death penalty "
You finish by saying " why should we keep people incarcerated for decades ? What really is the point? "
So where is the option between these two then ???
In what sense? Clarify?
Quote by deancannock
I say again...Justice not Revenge
*laughing* You can state it as many times as you like, it doesn't make it any more relevant
Freeeeeeeedooooooom
Quote by Toots
There is nothing to disagree with Rogue? the murder rate is falling and it does saturate our lives, in essence it's both and they do co-exist without being contradictory. *confused look*
What saturates is the ability to report, not the amount of murders which you alluded to and was therefore contradictory. Murders have always been there and because they happen LESS these days as soon as one is reported it appears more horrific as it garners more column inches and news minutes.
Quote by Rogue_Trader
Death Penalty has always been a revenge penalty.
Quote by Toots
That is your own personal opinion, it may well be the case for the family of the victim but in the case of the state it is simply a punishment to fit the crime, murder being the ultimate crime, execution by the state being the ultimate penalty. Prison is to punish and rehabilitate, it could be said that those committing per-meditated murder may be seen as not falling within the realms of rehabilitation and that letting them live is not punishment enough?
Its not my opinion its a fact and has been well documented. If we want to really make punishment fit the crime then total incarceration with no chance of parole until that person dies in prison has to be the only method.
I have another example for you, if state sponsored murder isnt retribution then why is it the only crime that is punished by the same outcome as the crime? We dont rapists, we dont beat up those committed of assault? so therefore it is retribution.
Toots,
In your first post, you say what others saying is claptrap.
You carry on now to laugh and snort at other peoples views !! ( are you really so high and mighty )
You tell try telling ME what I meant when I said people killed would become Martyrs. I actually find this offensive. How dare you tell ME what I meant. I used the word terrorists...I never once mentioned Islamic terrorists...and I wouldn't. Worldwide there are many terrorist organisations. If I had meant Islamic terrorists , I would have said it. Please stop being so damn condescending.
Maybe you could learn to debate with respect.
It has been documented worldwide, that the way to get the crime rate ( not just murder rate ) down is by better detection and conviction rate. You don't seem willing to accept this fact !!!!! No this won't work for every individual. Some are even willing to blow themselves up, in pursuit of their aim. There again, Capital punishment is not required then anyway !!
However I would point out that the original question, was about capital punishment. This would encompass all murders not just terrorist inspired ones. What about the crime of passion. Lets say a guy comes back and finds his wife in bed with another guy, and in a fit of rage kills one or both of them. Now I do not condone violence, but I think there would be a level understanding, why he flew into a rage. You want him killed as well ?
Once again....as always, you failed to answer the question I asked:
If you don't wish for the death penalty to return, as you have stated.....but you also don't want them in prison for decades, as you have stated.....what is your solution ?
In your first post, you say what others saying is claptrap.
You carry on now to laugh and snort at other peoples views !! ( are you really so high and mighty )
You tell try telling ME what I meant when I said people killed would become Martyrs. I actually find this offensive. How dare you tell ME what I meant. I used the word terrorists...I never once mentioned Islamic terrorists...and I wouldn't. Worldwide there are many terrorist organisations. If I had meant Islamic terrorists , I would have said it. Please stop being so damn condescending.
Maybe you could learn to debate with respect.
It has been documented worldwide, that the way to get the crime rate ( not just murder rate ) down is by better detection and conviction rate. You don't seem willing to accept this fact !!!!! No this won't work for every individual. Some are even willing to blow themselves up, in pursuit of their aim. There again, Capital punishment is not required then anyway !!
However I would point out that the original question, was about capital punishment. This would encompass all murders not just terrorist inspired ones. What about the crime of passion. Lets say a guy comes back and finds his wife in bed with another guy, and in a fit of rage kills one or both of them. Now I do not condone violence, but I think there would be a level understanding, why he flew into a rage. You want him killed as well ?
Once again....as always, you failed to answer the question I asked:
If you don't wish for the death penalty to return, as you have stated.....but you also don't want them in prison for decades, as you have stated.....what is your solution ?
Its a digression I know, but I wish we would stop calling these people who are committing crimes in the name of their religion terrorists. They aren't, they are criminals, they are gangsters etc. It is for control of land / region / territory exactly the same as gangs that operate in inner cities today, except these are better financed and have access to better weapons.
The only time I have seen this expressed was by a politician in Jordan after the murder of their pilot, he stated these are criminals and should be treated as criminals. As soon as you call them terrorists you legitimise their cause.
I digress, sorry, but it gets my goat that we are sensationlising through our media these dysfunctional wankers.
The only time I have seen this expressed was by a politician in Jordan after the murder of their pilot, he stated these are criminals and should be treated as criminals. As soon as you call them terrorists you legitimise their cause.
I digress, sorry, but it gets my goat that we are sensationlising through our media these dysfunctional wankers.
Quote by Rogue_Trader
What saturates is the ability to report, not the amount of murders which you alluded to and was therefore contradictory. Murders have always been there and because they happen LESS these days as soon as one is reported it appears more horrific as it garners more column inches and news minutes.
UK Murder Rate is down Worldwide I don't think it's the case, 'appears more horrific' I'm not so sure it's the horror of the murder but more the deluge of murder being reported, used to be one or two now it's the dozens and beyond, sometimes even into the hundreds. It's an awful thing to say but after time you tend to think nothing of reading 100+ slaughtered by a bomb in Iraq/Syria or in a school (Beslan), I could tell you off the top of my head how many were murdered by Michael Ryan (Hungerford) or Thomas Hamilton ( Dunblane ) but I couldn't tell you how many were killed in a Bomb attack in any given Iraq city on any given day but where the numbers are usually significantly higher.
Quote by Rogue_Trader
Death Penalty has always been a revenge penalty.
Its not my opinion its a fact and has been well documented. If we want to really make punishment fit the crime then total incarceration with no chance of parole until that person dies in prison has to be the only method.
Utter nonsense, plenty of documentation as to where the state and more specifically the UK considers the death penalty as revenge? Point me to said documentation please.
You mention incarceration with no chance of parole as a punishment befitting the crime but offer nothing by way of an explanation as to why you think that. To incarcerate does not altogether remove the ability of that individual to commit the same crime, warders, other prisoners and at the same time quite possibly still having the ability to strike (by the pen even) at the families of the victim.
Quote by Rogue_Trader
I have another example for you, if state sponsored murder isnt retribution then why is it the only crime that is punished by the same outcome as the crime? We dont rapists, we dont beat up those committed of assault? so therefore it is retribution.
Poor analogy and then some, I simplified it, ultimate crime meets with ultimate punishment, an exception but then it's an exceptional crime.
Quote by deancannock
In your first post, you say what others saying is claptrap.
You carry on now to laugh and snort at other peoples views !! ( are you really so high and mighty )
You say condescending, I say claptrap, is there a difference? didn't think so.
Quote by deancannock
You tell try telling ME what I meant when I said people killed would become Martyrs. I actually find this offensive. How dare you tell ME what I meant. I used the word terrorists...I never once mentioned Islamic terrorists...and I wouldn't. Worldwide there are many terrorist organisations. If I had meant Islamic terrorists , I would have said it.
It's my opinion and the more you post in protest the more I tend to think my opinion is right.
Quote by deancannockWhat was that you said about 'condescending? Bit hypocritical of you there Dean, You recently suggested in another thread that 'I may condone child abuse' re cover up/thatcher, twas your opinion and I carried on without quoting 'respect' as indeed it was just 'your opinion'
Maybe you could learn to debate with respect.
Quote by deancannock
It has been documented worldwide, that the way to get the crime rate ( not just murder rate ) down is by better detection and conviction rate. You don't seem willing to accept this fact !!!!!
You haven't as yet made an argument to back up the deterrent/conviction pov you hold, I'll ask again in an non condescending manner, where was the deterrent for those that murdered soldier Lee Riley? What was the deterrent for those from 7/7? (these are just a couple of examples).
Looking to the US where DP is in force in some states there is an argument put forward that some states such as Texas the murder rate is actually higher than in other states that do not practice the DP....however and a salient point is that out of those sentenced to death in Texas many will go through the appeals process and the sentence commuted to life without parole..but say for instance ALL of those placed on death row were executed in a pretty short space of time, months as opposed to years/decades There is the notion it would send a very clear message to those considering murdering that 'hey' don't murder in Texas cos you will be rubbed out if you do' in which case the DP may very well be a valid deterrent.
Quote by deancannock
What about the crime of passion. Lets say a guy comes back and finds his wife in bed with another guy, and in a fit of rage kills one or both of them. Now I do not condone violence, but I think there would be a level understanding, why he flew into a rage. You want him killed as well ?
*points up to one of my previous posts where I mentioned 'pre-meditated' and you're at the risk of the dp, crimes of passion in the vasty majority of cases is not that (one notable exception being Ruth Ellis)
Quote by deancannock
Once again....as always, you failed to answer the question
Is that patronising or condescending? *inserts a raucous laugh here*
Quote by Toots
UK Murder Rate is down Worldwide I don't think it's the case, 'appears more horrific' I'm not so sure it's the horror of the murder but more the deluge of murder being reported, used to be one or two now it's the dozens and beyond, sometimes even into the hundreds. It's an awful thing to say but after time you tend to think nothing of reading 100+ slaughtered by a bomb in Iraq/Syria or in a school (Beslan), I could tell you off the top of my head how many were murdered by Michael Ryan (Hungerford) or Thomas Hamilton ( Dunblane ) but I couldn't tell you how many were killed in a Bomb attack in any given Iraq city on any given day but where the numbers are usually significantly higher.
Isn't Syria a Civil War? You really cant compare that that with a lone gunman can you? Or how about comparing it to troubles in Ireland?
Quote by Toots
Utter nonsense, plenty of documentation as to where the state and more specifically the UK considers the death penalty as revenge? Point me to said documentation please.
Why the UK sees it as revenge? It was seen as retribution, wrong and an eye for an eye was not how the state should carry out punishment, hence it was banned. Also if you would like to get down to your local library and read;
Amnesty International, "Singapore – The death penalty: A hidden toll of executions"
"New York Law School: Robert Blecker".
"Immanuel Kant, The Philosophy of Right".
It may alter your thought.
Quote by Toots
You mention incarceration with no chance of parole as a punishment befitting the crime but offer nothing by way of an explanation as to why you think that. To incarcerate does not altogether remove the ability of that individual to commit the same crime, warders, other prisoners and at the same time quite possibly still having the ability to strike (by the pen even) at the families of the victim.
I think life should mean life, with no end date. My explanation is that I do not want to have someone who has taken another persons life on the streets of this great country. But removing them from the streets should not mean executing them.
Quote by Toots
Poor analogy and then some, I simplified it, ultimate crime meets with ultimate punishment, an exception but then it's an exceptional crime.
You're being an apologist for murder Toots. More and more countries are removing the death penalty only 1 western country still does it, which is America.
Capital Punishment supporters are becoming less and less.
Warming the Bed
I once seen a documentary on TV where there were two state senators discussing the death penalty, one was George Bush and the other I cannot remember.
The one guy went on about reforming the criminals. George Bush came out with a classic to the other senator, He made reference to a person that had been in the other senators state, he had a teenage girl and brutally beat her, left her for dead. he then served a 10 year jail sentence and was released as he had been reformed. one month after he went and re- the same woman but this time he Killed her. George Bush said, that would not have happened in my county! A very fitting reply. the other senator was stunned as he had nothing to answer with as his legal system had failed the victim as the has swore he would kill her when he was first caught.
Something to think about!
Lisa xx
The one guy went on about reforming the criminals. George Bush came out with a classic to the other senator, He made reference to a person that had been in the other senators state, he had a teenage girl and brutally beat her, left her for dead. he then served a 10 year jail sentence and was released as he had been reformed. one month after he went and re- the same woman but this time he Killed her. George Bush said, that would not have happened in my county! A very fitting reply. the other senator was stunned as he had nothing to answer with as his legal system had failed the victim as the has swore he would kill her when he was first caught.
Something to think about!
Lisa xx
Quote by Rogue_Trader
Isn't Syria a Civil War? You really cant compare that that with a lone gunman can you? Or how about comparing it to troubles in Ireland?
It may once of been that but in the strictest sense Civil war is that between it's own citizens, Syria along with the likes of Iraq now seem to be the killing fields for anyone with an issue on just about anything. Jeeeeeehad Jon and his alleged murders of UK/US/Japanese etc etc.
Quote by Rogue_Trader
Why the UK sees it as revenge? It was seen as retribution, wrong and an eye for an eye was not how the state should carry out punishment, hence it was banned. Also if you would like to get down to your local library and read;
Read xxx and xxx' 'It may alter your thought.
Not required, I do not advocate the use of the DP but for the purposes of this thread was playing devils advocate for nothing more selfish that wanting a good, credible argument as to why it should stay abolished, nothing offered as yet has swayed me in the slightest.
Quote by Rogue_Trader
I think life should mean life, with no end date. My explanation is that I do not want to have someone who has taken another persons life on the streets of this great country. But removing them from the streets should not mean executing them.
Granted incarceration is a method of dealing but it's not really a punishment is it, not really, I'm sure we're all aware of how cushy for some prison is, no worry of any day to day life trails and tribulations, food on tap, warm bed, running water, no financial concerns, the list goes on but importantly none of this will be afforded to the murderers victim, they're dead.
Quote by Rogue_Trader
You're being an apologist for murder Toots. More and more countries are removing the death penalty only 1 western country still does it, which is America.
Part of the reason the UK would be unable to restore the death penalty is because we signed up for the likes of the Human Rights Act 98, then further to that the 6th European Convention on Human Rights which interesting initially prohibited the DP except in cases of war/imminent war and then finally the 13th Protocol of the ECHR adopted in 2004 banning the DP in all circumstances and whilst we're signed up for the convention it we cannot reintroduce the DP. I wonder if Cameron if he remains in power post election May 15 will do as he said and scrap the Human Rights Act?
Quote by Rogue_Trader
Capital Punishment supporters are becoming less and less.
You think? Support for the DP ebbs and flows, ebbs with miscarriages of justice and botched executions, flows with the murder of Ken Bigley, Milly Dowler or Police officers such as Nicola Hughes/Fiona Bone. I'd hazard a guess that any vote Vote taken just after their murders would show a pretty heft spike in wanting the DP back.
Perversely the stomach for the DP may not be quite as apparent because we're so overloaded with death/destruction/murder on our streets both home and away that apathy rules?
Quote by Toots
Granted incarceration is a method of dealing but it's not really a punishment is it, not really, I'm sure we're all aware of how cushy for some prison is, no worry of any day to day life trails and tribulations, food on tap, warm bed, running water, no financial concerns, the list goes on but importantly none of this will be afforded to the murderers victim, they're dead.
Been in prison Toots? Don't believe the like of the Daily Mail. It isn't cushy. It's all about control.
Quote by Toots
Part of the reason the UK would be unable to restore the death penalty is because we signed up for the likes of the Human Rights Act 98, then further to that the 6th European Convention on Human Rights which interesting initially prohibited the DP except in cases of war/imminent war and then finally the 13th Protocol of the ECHR adopted in 2004 banning the DP in all circumstances and whilst we're signed up for the convention it we cannot reintroduce the DP. I wonder if Cameron if he remains in power post election May 15 will do as he said and scrap the Human Rights Act?
There will not be any move to repeal the HRA, we were one of the original proponents along with the other 9 members of the Council of Europe in 1949 then adopted in 1950. Interpretation of the Act though leaves a lot to be desired as sometimes it is misused to protect the right of the individual over the right of the many.
Quote by Toots
You think? Support for the DP ebbs and flows, ebbs with miscarriages of justice and botched executions, flows with the murder of Ken Bigley, Milly Dowler or Police officers such as Nicola Hughes/Fiona Bone. I'd hazard a guess that any vote Vote taken just after their murders would show a pretty heft spike in wanting the DP back.
Perversely the stomach for the DP may not be quite as apparent because we're so overloaded with death/destruction/murder on our streets both home and away that apathy rules?
Yes I think from the stats I have read the move is against. Its the minority right wing who want repeal and thankfully they wont get it.
Toots,
Yes...I find the fact that you call someone elses opinion utter claptrap....then laugh and sneer, and snort at this opinion as condescending.
Yes...The fact that you choose to tell ME what I really meant as condescending. When I clearly state again what I meant and you say, I don't believe you...is calling me a liar...I find that offensive. You may be surprised to know I know my own mind.
In the other thread to which you refer, I asked you a question...yes ..repeatedly.... you chose not to answer it. That's not being condescending...that's asking a question !!!
Have I called your comment claptrap? Have I said I laugh and snort at your comments? No because though I may vehemently disagree with may, I would always respect other peoples right to have those opinions ( so long as with the law ).
Yes...I find the fact that you call someone elses opinion utter claptrap....then laugh and sneer, and snort at this opinion as condescending.
Yes...The fact that you choose to tell ME what I really meant as condescending. When I clearly state again what I meant and you say, I don't believe you...is calling me a liar...I find that offensive. You may be surprised to know I know my own mind.
In the other thread to which you refer, I asked you a question...yes ..repeatedly.... you chose not to answer it. That's not being condescending...that's asking a question !!!
Have I called your comment claptrap? Have I said I laugh and snort at your comments? No because though I may vehemently disagree with may, I would always respect other peoples right to have those opinions ( so long as with the law ).
Quote by Rogue_Trader
Been in prison Toots? Don't believe the like of the Daily Mail. It isn't cushy. It's all about control.
It's not about control, but rather that for some incarceration is just their ticket, fed, watered, no money worries, nothing to concern yourself with from the outside world, a bed every night and not a bill to pay anywhere? all this for a murderer, sorry, but that is cushy and of no real benefit to anyone other than them.
Quote by Rogue_Trader
There will not be any move to repeal the HRA, we were one of the original proponents along with the other 9 members of the Council of Europe in 1949 then adopted in 1950. Interpretation of the Act though leaves a lot to be desired as sometimes it is misused to protect the right of the individual over the right of the many.
You can't say that without any real certainty, it may take a pretty insane piece of barbarism to kick start the road back but whatever I seriously believe that at some point in the not too distant future, a few years, couple of decades maybe but we will revisit the DP to the point where it may just be put back on the books, lets face it we're not far from a European union meltdown once the EU is booted into the history books it will only be a matter of time before the UK reasserts it's self, first to it's citizens and then to the rest of the world (well, that's the theory anyway)
Quote by Rogue_Trader
Yes I think from the stats I have read the move is against. Its the minority right wing who want repeal and thankfully they wont get it.
Good Job they don't leave it to the great unwashed eh?
Quote by deancannock
Toots,
Yes...I find the fact that you call someone elses opinion utter claptrap....then laugh and sneer, and snort at this opinion as condescending.
Yes...The fact that you choose to tell ME what I really meant as condescending. When I clearly state again what I meant and you say, I don't believe you...is calling me a liar...I find that offensive. You may be surprised to know I know my own mind.
In the other thread to which you refer, I asked you a question...yes ..repeatedly.... you chose not to answer it. That's not being condescending...that's asking a question !!!
Have I called your comment claptrap? Have I said I laugh and snort at your comments? No because though I may vehemently disagree with may, I would always respect other peoples right to have those opinions ( so long as with the law ).
I hate seeing a grown man cry, please don't *smiling*
You're being argumentative for the sake of it or you appear to have read something into a comment that just isn't there? read back and you'll note I didn't refer to you specifically as spouting claptrap but more that 'your comments were nothing more than themainstream claptraphanded down by the masses. It's OK, I don't need an apology but methinks in the interest of keeping what is an excellent topic live (as opposed to locked) I'll step out real neat like.
Quote by Toots
It's not about control, but rather that for some incarceration is just their ticket, fed, watered, no money worries, nothing to concern yourself with from the outside world, a bed every night and not a bill to pay anywhere? all this for a murderer, sorry, but that is cushy and of no real benefit to anyone other than them.
The workings of a prison is about the control, the punishment of prison is incarceration. Once inside, the prison authority has to CONTROL the populace. Its very easy for prisoners to take over a prison and cause untold damage and mayhem. There are not enough warders to effectively stop this. So certain measures are put inside to try and control the populace. TV, a diet that is palatable, light, bed and warmth plus access to gym.
Granted you dont pay any bills, but there is not much else you can do. Also shouldn't prison be about rehabilitation? prevention is better than cure? Or do you believe because someone has made a mistake they should pay for it forever? I know we are talking about capital punishment in this thread and therefore I believe my punishment of never gaining ones freedom is just. Though for this to work the way prisons are organised has to change.
Quote by Toots
You can't say that without any real certainty, it may take a pretty insane piece of barbarism to kick start the road back but whatever I seriously believe that at some point in the not too distant future, a few years, couple of decades maybe but we will revisit the DP to the point where it may just be put back on the books, lets face it we're not far from a European union meltdown once the EU is booted into the history books it will only be a matter of time before the UK reasserts it's self, first to it's citizens and then to the rest of the world (well, that's the theory anyway)
Regretably, if that does happen, I wont be around to see it. EU meltdown? why do you think that? Putin was always going to flex his muscles at some point, he's a tyrant for gawd sake and playing up to the world stage. But he's had a bloody nose and the politics that is currently going on is geting a Russian withdrawal without there appearing to be an embarrassing climbdown. Just shows that the Russian war machine can be brought to its knees by sanctions.
Quote by Rogue_Trader
Yes I think from the stats I have read the move is against. Its the minority right wing who want repeal and thankfully they wont get it.
Quote by Toots
Good Job they don't leave it to the great unwashed eh?
I wrote MOVE, therefore travelling towards, I didnt say it was already a given that the populace would vote against capital punishment. But to extract a section of the summary in that article you posted;
"By 45-39% people tend to support the reintroduction of the death penalty for murder.
Support has been dropping steadily - in 2010, 51% were in favour and 37% opposed, and people born after 1964, in the 18-39 age bracket, tend to oppose its reintroduction. This may suggest that we are approaching a moment when people will tend to oppose it, but we are not there yet."
Therefore the stats you posted tend to show a move towards opposition and not the supporting of re-introduction.
Give it another 10 years and then see what the stats say.
