Celebrate a Death ?

8 Apr 2013

Quote by starlightcouple
Can you answer the question that after she stepped down and the Tory party lost the election to Tony Blair, why did Labour not reverse any of her polices on Trade Union reforms and Privatised industries?
Tony Blair gave a glowing reference to her today, and I actually take my hat off to him that he of all people realised her greatness.
On winning her third election, she got more votes than she did on her first victory after eight years in office. Now that is an achievement.

Quote by Robert400andKay
It is just possible that Tony Blair realized that she was better than him?

From his interview about her today, I would say his body language and what he said aboiut her indicated that could well be true.

8 Apr 2013

Why on earth would the Tory Lite TM party that the warmongering traitor Blair created want to repair Thatchers damage?? It served to keep him in power

8 Apr 2013

Can you answer the question that after she stepped down and the Tory party lost the election to Tony Blair, why did Labour not reverse any of her polices on Trade Union reforms and Privatised industries?

Very briefly Star, the privatised industries were sold at a knock down price, mainly to multi-national investment banks. The same investment banks the UK economy came to depend on once heavy industries in the manufacturing sector had been decimated and we'd moved to a financial services led economy. How exactly would the Labour party have gone about buying these industries back once sold, or closed down? At what cost? Billions upon billions upon billions. Simply impossible.
There's a clue there also to your question on trade union reform. With the loss of the industrial / manufacturing base the larger trade unions ( I'm thinking steelworkers, railway workers, heavy engineering, dockers, miners, yadda, yadda, ya ) had been reduced to an irrelevance. There was no power to give back given that the union's power base had largely gone.
That's a simplistic view, but I think a correct one. You cannot bring something back once it's been destroyed wholesale, the infrastructure was no longer there, but what remained in private hands. The same private hands Blair as a kind of Thatcher-lite toadied up to for his own power base.

8 Apr 2013

Quote by neilinleeds
Can you answer the question that after she stepped down and the Tory party lost the election to Tony Blair, why did Labour not reverse any of her polices on Trade Union reforms and Privatised industries?

Very briefly Star, the privatised industries were sold at a knock down price, mainly to multi-national investment banks. The same investment banks the UK economy came to depend on once heavy industries in the manufacturing sector had been decimated and we'd moved to a financial services led economy. How exactly would the Labour party have gone about buying these industries back once sold, or closed down? At what cost? Billions upon billions upon billions. Simply impossible.
There's a clue there also to your question on trade union reform. With the loss of the industrial / manufacturing base the larger trade unions ( I'm thinking steelworkers, railway workers, heavy engineering, dockers, miners, yadda, yadda, ya ) had been reduced to an irrelevance. There was no power to give back given that the union's power base had largely gone.
That's a simplistic view, but I think a correct one. You cannot bring something back once it's been destroyed wholesale, the infrastructure was no longer there, but what remained in private hands. The same private hands Blair as a kind of Thatcher-lite toadied up to for his own power base.
See I told you lol

8 Apr 2013

Can you answer the question that after she stepped down and the Tory party lost the election to Tony Blair, why did Labour not reverse any of her polices on Trade Union reforms and Privatised industries?

Quote by neilinleeds
Very briefly Star, the privatised industries were sold at a knock down price, mainly to multi-national investment banks. The same investment banks the UK economy came to depend on once heavy industries in the manufacturing sector had been decimated and we'd moved to a financial services led economy. How exactly would the Labour party have gone about buying these industries back once sold, or closed down? At what cost? Billions upon billions upon billions. Simply impossible.
There's a clue there also to your question on trade union reform. With the loss of the industrial / manufacturing base the larger trade unions ( I'm thinking steelworkers, railway workers, heavy engineering, dockers, miners, yadda, yadda, ya ) had been reduced to an irrelevance. There was no power to give back given that the union's power base had largely gone.
That's a simplistic view, but I think a correct one. You cannot bring something back once it's been destroyed wholesale, the infrastructure was no longer there, but what remained in private hands. The same private hands Blair as a kind of Thatcher-lite toadied up to for his own power base.

Thanks for answering Neil. :thumbup:

8 Apr 2013

Must admit, I did not agree with everything she did, but she was a good PM, at least she had some balls!
IMO, the poll tax was a good idea.

8 Apr 2013

The "Iron Lady" has finally gone rusty. :twisted:

8 Apr 2013

Quote by starlightcouple

A sad loss of a great statewoman who was an example to many women our first woman Prime Minister who did a lot right and something wrongs but whatever she did she did it for Britain not for herself.
She was ousted by her own party because she believed in what she thought and would not back down even to save her job.
Love her, hate her you should always respect her.

8 Apr 2013

Loving the revisionism in here.
Thatcher 'won' the elections but never with an overwhelming majority. Her (The Tories) figures were 43.9% (1979), 42.4% (1983) and 42.2% (1987). Each time, the turnout was about 70% of the population. So technically, only about 3 in 10 of the people voted for her.
The reason why Blair paid such a tribute is because he has admitted previously that she was his 'political hero'. She was one of the first people he invited to Number 10 when he became PM, much to the disgust of Labour party activists, particularly in the North.

8 Apr 2013

I dont care much for what anyone else says of the Lady, I have nothing but admiration for Lady Thatcher, told like it is, rarely took prisoners and wasn't afraid to pitch against others regardless of who they were.
What a woman, awesome!

8 Apr 2013

I would never celebrate someones death.....but coming from a mining family, living in a mining town, being part, of what once was, a mining community, with a mining tradition....I am damned sure I shall be shedding NO tears.

8 Apr 2013

I think that the time to have 'celebrated' Mrs T's misfortune was in November 1990 when she resigned.
We've had 13 or so years of Labour since then, so plenty of time to reverse anything they didn't like about what she did.
It's not nice to celebrate a death and it says more about the person doing the celebrating than Mrs Thatcher.

8 Apr 2013

Quote by Steve
A number of my "friends" on a well known social networking site are celebrating her death...
How very sad that someone should feel that the right thing to do...

Steve, I think you are absolutely correct. No person should celebrate the death of another. It is barbaric.

8 Apr 2013

Quote by starlightcouple
Take it with a large pinch of salt Steve. None of us ( for I would fall into the camp you mention ) would truly wish anyone dead, but it's a measure of the absolute hatred her name still brings out in those who got the shittier end of her particular stick.
It's difficult to mourn when you think of just how many lives this woman destroyed, callously, to such little purpose, cos as others on there have rightly pointed out this golden age of Thatcherism we're gonna be hearing about endlessly in coming weeks is about as golden as a spray painted turd. If only her legacy could be buried with her but no, it lives on, to be lived out in the daily lives of those still suffering the consequences thanks to her and her latest incarnation at the head of the Tory party. I piss on the lot of 'em. She was truly a callous, loathsome woman who cared not one bit for those she cut adrift in a sea of misery. Why should those people pretend to care now she's dead? I'm not into revisionism or hypocrisy. I make no apologies for it.

Can you answer the question that after she stepped down and the Tory party lost the election to Tony Blair, why did Labour not reverse any of her polices on Trade Union reforms and Privatised industries?
Tony Blair gave a glowing reference to her today, and I actually take my hat off to him that he of all people realised her greatness.
She was deposed by her own party and John Major won the following election .... FFS!!!
I worded that completely wrong lol

The policies that Thatcher reformed such as Union Reforms and the privatisation of companies, why when Labour came into power under Blair did they not reverse her policies?
Think i worded that correctly this time. wink

Chhers for correcting me Staggers. :bounce:
Tony Blair admitted to what we all know. He consciously decided to continue many of the policies that were introduced under the Baroness. Moreover the Labour party decided when they were in power not to reverse the decisions already made.
Although out of context: Didn't TB look ill and old in that interview?

8 Apr 2013

Quote by Trev
Although out of context: Didn't TB look ill and old in that interview?

That was my thought too Trev, as if he was carrying a heavy burden.
It will be interesting to watch the debate in the House when recalled.
If I understand it correctly, even the celebrated 'beast of Bolsover' spoke well of her in life, as no doubt he will in death. So, no doubt, will other well respected enemies of the Thatcher State who respected her absolutely whilst despising her politics; Tony Benn and other 'giants' from her era.
Rest well Maggie. You touched the lives of so many Britons and inspired many others throughout the world with your steely determination, proving without doubt that you don't have to be a 'Tory toff' to be a great achiever.
You will be sorely missed but deserve your great place in shaping our history.

9 Apr 2013

Quote by Trevaunance
A number of my "friends" on a well known social networking site are celebrating her death...
How very sad that someone should feel that the right thing to do...

Steve, I think you are absolutely correct. No person should celebrate the death of another. It is barbaric.
agreed :thumbup::thumbup:

9 Apr 2013

Quote by GnV
Rest well Maggie. You touched the lives of so many Britons and inspired many others throughout the world with your steely determination, proving without doubt that you don't have to be a 'Tory toff' to be a great achiever.

A grocer's girl who "done good!"

9 Apr 2013

Quote by flower411
Let's be fair here ....becoming the first woman prime minister of this country was a great achievment.
Sticking to your guns and having the strength hold to your principals is a quality to be admired in any leader.
But what about introducing blatant advertising to win votes, that's a legacy that led directly to the rise of Tony Blair and new labour, a cynical bunch of hypocrites who wouldn`t even be able to spell principals let alone understand what they are.
Selling off the councils houses ? Brilliant idea, to give people responsibilty for their own lives, but failing to invest the money in new social housing ? Stupid stupid stupid and don`t go bleating about it's nice to look at these things with hindsight, there were plenty of us going on about it at the time.
Destroying the manufacturing base and mining industry and selling off the railways and utilities with absolutely no plan as to what to do with the unemployed and no forward planning which is why we still plough millions into running the railways but Richard Branson gets the profits and the French supply our electricity
Selling off the countries assets with no plan for investing in the future was short sighted at best but was probably just a cynical ploy to balance the books.
But the worst thing she did was to set in motion the machine that led this country to its total reliance on the financial markets which in turn led to the fact that we are in such a horrible mess at the moment.
And I`ll repeat, for all those who will say that it`s easy to see these things with hindsight, many of us were saying all of these things at the time and were ignored.

id add that the unions /or the union leaders have to share a certain responsibility for the demise of our industry's
is it not possible that by selling off the railways and state owned utilities that this negated the chance of the unions holding the country to ransom again ?
as for the financial crisis, it was brown whom deregulated the financial industry which lead to the crash in 2008
hind site is a wonderful thing but somethings are done with the best intentions at the time

9 Apr 2013

Quote by deancannock
I would never celebrate someones death.....but coming from a mining family, living in a mining town, being part, of what once was, a mining community, with a mining tradition....I am damned sure I shall be shedding NO tears.

Didn't a lot of us Dean, but it was 30 years ago, time to move on.

9 Apr 2013

Quote by deancannock
I would never celebrate someones death.....but coming from a mining family, living in a mining town, being part, of what once was, a mining community, with a mining tradition....I am damned sure I shall be shedding NO tears.

Ask the mothers and fathers if they are truly sad that their sons no longer have to go miles underground to earn a paltry living in a dangerous and unhealthy environment. I was brought up in Wigan and St Helen's and six of my school friends were on apprenticeships with the coal board. Whilst they were all strikers and agitated at the time, not one of them is now mourning the loss of a filthy and dangerous industry and none would have been happy for their kids to be going down the mines now.
I do not believe that anyone can be saying this kind of stuff about Mrs Thatcher could have been an adult between 1976 and 1979 when this country truly was on its knees and real poverty existed.

9 Apr 2013

I don't think i wished her dead but i can see why many people would.
The Poll Tax made my and my familys life impossible. I was the mother of 2 young children. My (then) husband worked hard, i worked part time when he was home so he could look after the children, i wasn't able to work when he was working because child care was way to expensive. We didnt have holidays or days out that cost anything, we lived a very difficult life finacialy.
I had to pay the same poll tax as someone who was working full time and my husband also had to pay it. When that was paid out of our small wages there wasn't actually enough money left over to pay the rent, pay the bills and buy food. We got no help from the state. If it wasn't for my parents heliong us by buying us food etc then there would have been many times when only the children would have food !
Hence i hate MT.
So although i don't think i wished her dead i am not shedding any tears, i shed them in the days when i was cold and hungry and waiting for mum to pop round with food for us !

9 Apr 2013

Quote by nellie-mwgc
I don't think i wished her dead but i can see why many people would.
The Poll Tax made my and my familys life impossible. I was the mother of 2 young children. My (then) husband worked hard, i worked part time when he was home so he could look after the children, i wasn't able to work when he was working because child care was way to expensive. We didnt have holidays or days out that cost anything, we lived a very difficult life finacialy.
I had to pay the same poll tax as someone who was working full time and my husband also had to pay it. When that was paid out of our small wages there wasn't actually enough money left over to pay the rent, pay the bills and buy food. We got no help from the state. If it wasn't for my parents heliong us by buying us food etc then there would have been many times when only the children would have food !
Hence i hate MT.
So although i don't think i wished her dead i am not shedding any tears, i shed them in the days when i was cold and hungry and waiting for mum to pop round with food for us !

What could be fairer than asking every individual to pay for the services that they receive? The problem was historical in that local services had always been paid for by rates levied on properties and Brits being Brits we simply can't cope with change. It is not the property that used local services, but the people who lived in it and hence it was seen as fair that if you as an individual are going to use something - then you as an individual should pay for it.
In my opinion if you take away the historical context of this type of revenue being illogically levied on property then it is about as fair a "tax" as you could ever have. Of course you would still get the same bleating today that the rich should pay more - but why? Is a rich person likely to call the fire brigade more often than a poor one? Everyone gets the same refuse collection service.

9 Apr 2013

What were we suposed to pay it with though ?
Our combined wages didnt cover the poll tax plus rent on our tiny house and food and bills ?
If i worked more hours then i would have had to pay for childcare and that would have cost more than i earned (as a nurse) !
Nowadays i live in a household with 3 adults who all pay towards the council tax and the amount each of us pay out of our wages is less than the percentage the poll tax was from our wages then (not explained that well but im sure you know what i mean).

9 Apr 2013

Community Charge (poll tax) was a very fair system. The problem lay with the council rates that had not been increased year on year, so when the community charge came in at the figure everyone should have been paying it was a bit of a shock.

9 Apr 2013

Quote by flower411
Community Charge (poll tax) was a very fair system. The problem lay with the council rates that had not been increased year on year, so when the community charge came in at the figure everyone should have been paying it was a bit of a shock.

It wasn`t that rates hadn`t been increased ! It was because the valuation list hadn`t been updated . Rateable values on out of town shopping centres were stupidly low because the law wasn`t being enforced .
Domestic Rates hadn't increased because the valuations of 1978 and 1983 had been cancelled. So I don't know why you say it wasn't rates that had increased as its rates we paid? A colloquialism of rateable value surely?

9 Apr 2013

aah yes, resigned to history!

9 Apr 2013

Quote by Rogue_Trader
Community Charge (poll tax) was a very fair system. The problem lay with the council rates that had not been increased year on year, so when the community charge came in at the figure everyone should have been paying it was a bit of a shock.

100% correct - It was far .. but it came a shock to those who'd benefitted from services but had never had to contribute to the cost of providing them.

9 Apr 2013

yep, god forbid you should get something for nothing in this country!
Some folks need to realise that some things are a privilege and not a right to have!

9 Apr 2013

Quote by flower411
Let's be fair here ....becoming the first woman prime minister of this country was a great achievment.
Sticking to your guns and having the strength hold to your principals is a quality to be admired in any leader.
Agreed
But what about introducing blatant advertising to win votes, that's a legacy that led directly to the rise of Tony Blair and new labour, That was going to happen sooner or later, someone was going to see the benefit of using the worlds media system and the worlds top advisors to make yourself look, every big business does it and politics is big business a cynical bunch of hypocrites who wouldn`t even be able to spell principals let alone understand what they are.
Selling off the councils houses ? Brilliant idea, to give people responsibilty for their own lives, but failing to invest the money in new social housing ? Stupid stupid stupid Yes totally stupid but her stupidity was giving the councils the ability to use too much of the money gained from selling council houses on other projects and not replacing the stock, it was the Councils who actually spent too much of the revenue on other projects more than a little naive of her and her advisors and don`t go bleating about it's nice to look at these things with hindsight, there were plenty of us going on about it at the time.
Destroying the manufacturing base and mining industry and selling off the railways and utilities with absolutely no plan as to what to do with the unemployed and no forward planning which is why we still plough millions into running the railways but Richard Branson gets the profits and the French supply our electricity Yes some parts were bad but not all, coal was costing more to bring to the surface than it was selling for on the streets and in the factories, other nations were offering us cheaper coal, any business would have stopped buying at the higher price and sought cheaper alternatives. Much can be said for some other manafacturers, pouring money into Fords of Dagenham for instance, the car industry in the UK is doing much better these days without state handouts though I am no expert it seems that some of the tree needed pruning, a shame the BBC wasn't part of the equation.
Selling off the countries assets with no plan for investing in the future was short sighted at best but was probably just a cynical ploy to balance the books.
But the worst thing she did was to set in motion the machine that led this country to its total reliance on the financial markets which in turn led to the fact that we are in such a horrible mess at the moment. This one I dont agree with, again by no means knowlegeable on this subject but I did see her clear our National Debt and pay off the USA what we owed them for the WWII lend lease debt.
And I`ll repeat, for all those who will say that it`s easy to see these things with hindsight, many of us were saying all of these things at the time and were ignored.

She also brought our armed forces into line with minimum wage, many of whom were receiving supplementary benefits because their wages were so low at the time including many on active service.
She stood up against the EU.
Union power was running out of control and no longer always at the benefit to it's members.
She did some things wrong and she did some things right, overall she took on battles that other politicains had been and still are scared to because the cure is unpopular, she stood by her beliefs and fought hard for the people of this country in all matters she thought was the right thing to do.
She was one of our most unpopular politicians of all time but that was because in many things she did what had to be done, unpopular or not she did serve 3 terms and that in itself is a great achievment, I for one respect her and mourn her death.

9 Apr 2013

Quote by Too Hot
I would never celebrate someones death.....but coming from a mining family, living in a mining town, being part, of what once was, a mining community, with a mining tradition....I am damned sure I shall be shedding NO tears.

Ask the mothers and fathers if they are truly sad that their sons no longer have to go miles underground to earn a paltry living in a dangerous and unhealthy environment. I was brought up in Wigan and St Helen's and six of my school friends were on apprenticeships with the coal board. Whilst they were all strikers and agitated at the time, not one of them is now mourning the loss of a filthy and dangerous industry and none would have been happy for their kids to be going down the mines now.
I do not believe that anyone can be saying this kind of stuff about Mrs Thatcher could have been an adult between 1976 and 1979 when this country truly was on its knees and real poverty existed.
Surprise surprise....my name gives it away, I am from Cannock. The Cannock Chase coal seam, had 5 pits operating it. Littleton Colliery was the most productive man for man in the whole of Europe. But Mrs Thatcher, chose to close it down....not because it was not making money, not because its reserves were running out, but out of vindictivness. Littleton Came out on strike, and didn't operate during the miners strike. She simply wanted her own back. Short sighted and vindictive. It destroyed a community, and it destroyed lives. I have said it before but I shall tell you again...I actually consider Mrs Thatcher to have my families blood on her hands. My younger brother worked down Littleton, when it closed ; he was devasted. He couldn't find alternative work. He had a wife and 3 young chilren to try and feed and put clothes on their back. He felt a failure for not being able to sustain his family. He was found hanging from the rafters of the loft. Thats the legacy of Mrs Thatcher...destruction of communities and families. Thats why although not celebrating her death, I shall not be shedding any tears!!