Christian Hotel case

29 Jan 2011

Quote by browning
If you took your car to the garage for a service, and the mechanics own car was a complete bucket, would you feel happy with him working on your car?

My ex-brother in law was a mechanic, and every car he owned was as you say a bucket....they and the cars of his family and friends all ran like dreams...as the saying goes..don't judge a book by it's cover.
Ah, but lee, thats not what I asked.
If I was looking to get my car serviced, and I turned up at the garage and the mechanics car was a bucket, i'd walk away.
It would depend on how much he was charging...but that would have been the deciding factor in wether I was there or not in the first place,so probably not.
Some assumptions I make...
A mechanics car will run....never buy it, it will be cobbled together out of allsorts of crap and fail on you almost immediately because you don't know what to do to make the bits work
A plumbers house will have every kind of pipe imaginable fitted together in the most bizarre ways,never buy it you will not know how it works and neither will the horrendously expensive plumber you will have to pay to put it back together in the 'right' order..
You get the idea....this does not mean they are bad tradesmen just that like most of us they hate diy and do only what needs to be done ,not what should be done
So the answer to your question Browning is NO I wouldn't walk away

29 Jan 2011

Quote by swcpl2005
So for those who support the legal case against the couple with the B&B, I trust they would support similar legal action and criminal convictions against the owners of these following hotels who openly state on their websites they are Gay Only?

There are 100s of these advertised on the internet. I just picked on the first few links Google threw up.
The more I think about this B&B case the more I believe it was a Stonewall setup. Look at the B&B's website and they clearly state on their booking form what guests they want Is this any different to "gay only" requirements for the other hotels?
What these minority groups have to accept is that if they want equality then they have to reciprocate it unless they really believe some are less equal than others (which seems to be the case, as defined by our ridiculous laws).

Are hotels who do not allow dogs discriminating against those of us who own them??are hotels who do allow dogs discriminating against those of us who have asthma ?? what about me I am an asthmatic dog owner ???
If the question is do I think the above hotels are discriminating against the straight section of society, then yes they they be ? no probably they be allowed to ? yes
Should the christian owned hotel be allowed to ban homosexuals ? no
I know it's a terrible double standard isn't it...but as I said earlier minorities in our community HAVE to guard their right jealously no-one else will do it for if by operating a discriminatory policy in certain places they allow themselves a haven from the day to day bigotry they experience then good for them...also
1..much as I like the gays there is no way on earth I would ever want to spend my holiday surrounded by them exclusively.
2..I have no doubt there are many alternative hotels in the relevant areas for non gay patrons...I doubt there are that many alternatives for gay patrons who wish to relax without the nods winks and whispers they no doubt attract in most hotels....we are you see, on the whole still a narrow minded prurient society, who like nothing more than a bit of gossip.

29 Jan 2011

..much as I like the gays there is no way on earth I would ever want to spend my holiday surrounded by them exclusively.
So, could it be argued that because of the above, you are being predujiced against the gay community?

29 Jan 2011

Quote by browning
..much as I like the gays there is no way on earth I would ever want to spend my holiday surrounded by them exclusively.
So, could it be argued that because of the above, you are being predujiced against the gay community?

It could indeed...but as much as I like my family I wouldn't want to spend my holiday exclusively with them either....You'd be closer if you argued that I was something of a misanthrope

29 Jan 2011

i think i no longer have sympathy for some 'minority' groups. having achieved a certain amount of legal support and public consideration, they now seem prepared to go on the attack with as much prejudice and discrimination as they felt has been inflicted on them.

29 Jan 2011

Quote by duncanlondon
i think i no longer have sympathy for some 'minority' groups. having achieved a certain amount of legal support and public consideration, they now seem prepared to go on the attack with as much prejudice and discrimination as they felt has been inflicted on them.

Surely until the fact that they are a member of a minority is not a factor in anything, there is no option for them but to fight for their rights in whatever way they can

29 Jan 2011

Quote by Staggerlee_BB
So for those who support the legal case against the couple with the B&B, I trust they would support similar legal action and criminal convictions against the owners of these following hotels who openly state on their websites they are Gay Only?

There are 100s of these advertised on the internet. I just picked on the first few links Google threw up.
The more I think about this B&B case the more I believe it was a Stonewall setup. Look at the B&B's website and they clearly state on their booking form what guests they want Is this any different to "gay only" requirements for the other hotels?
What these minority groups have to accept is that if they want equality then they have to reciprocate it unless they really believe some are less equal than others (which seems to be the case, as defined by our ridiculous laws).

Are hotels who do not allow dogs discriminating against those of us who own them??are hotels who do allow dogs discriminating against those of us who have asthma ?? what about me I am an asthmatic dog owner ???
If the question is do I think the above hotels are discriminating against the straight section of society, then yes they they be ? no probably they be allowed to ? yes
Should the christian owned hotel be allowed to ban homosexuals ? no
I know it's a terrible double standard isn't it...but as I said earlier minorities in our community HAVE to guard their right jealously no-one else will do it for if by operating a discriminatory policy in certain places they allow themselves a haven from the day to day bigotry they experience then good for them...also
1..much as I like the gays there is no way on earth I would ever want to spend my holiday surrounded by them exclusively.
2..I have no doubt there are many alternative hotels in the relevant areas for non gay patrons...I doubt there are that many alternatives for gay patrons who wish to relax without the nods winks and whispers they no doubt attract in most hotels....we are you see, on the whole still a narrow minded prurient society, who like nothing more than a bit of gossip.
Dont like double standards, whats good for the goose.... and all that
In my view we can only have one set of rules for all!

30 Jan 2011

Quote by Staggerlee_BB
i think i no longer have sympathy for some 'minority' groups. having achieved a certain amount of legal support and public consideration, they now seem prepared to go on the attack with as much prejudice and discrimination as they felt has been inflicted on them.

Surely until the fact that they are a member of a minority is not a factor in anything, there is no option for them but to fight for their rights in whatever way they can
Does that mean that once there's enough of you, no one bothers with you anymore?

30 Jan 2011

So what's the difference between predujice and preference?

30 Jan 2011

Quote by browning
So what's the difference between predujice and preference?

Preference is where you choose to do without - prejudice is where you force others to do without. So in this hotel case - this couple's beliefs (preferences) dictate they cannot sleep together unless married - fine, no problem there. Their prejudice kicks in when they start dictating the sleeping arrangements of strangers.
Or more generally, preference is where you modify your own behaviour, prejudice is where you expect others to modify theirs regardless of these other people's own preferences/beliefs.
My personal interpretation.

30 Jan 2011

setting aside this situation and others where the word is often misused; prejudice is more to do with having a set of criteria that determines how you make a decision. this can be orders from your boss or peer pressure.
preference is where you have time to consider in your own way how to make a decision.

30 Jan 2011

Quote by duncanlondon
i think i no longer have sympathy for some 'minority' groups. having achieved a certain amount of legal support and public consideration, they now seem prepared to go on the attack with as much prejudice and discrimination as they felt has been inflicted on them.

Surely until the fact that they are a member of a minority is not a factor in anything, there is no option for them but to fight for their rights in whatever way they can
Does that mean that once there's enough of you, no one bothers with you anymore?
No it means...until the fact that they are a member of a minority is not a factor in anything, there is no option for them but to fight for their rights in whatever way they can

30 Jan 2011

Quote by Staggerlee_BB
So for those who support the legal case against the couple with the B&B, I trust they would support similar legal action and criminal convictions against the owners of these following hotels who openly state on their websites they are Gay Only?

There are 100s of these advertised on the internet. I just picked on the first few links Google threw up.
The more I think about this B&B case the more I believe it was a Stonewall setup. Look at the B&B's website and they clearly state on their booking form what guests they want Is this any different to "gay only" requirements for the other hotels?
What these minority groups have to accept is that if they want equality then they have to reciprocate it unless they really believe some are less equal than others (which seems to be the case, as defined by our ridiculous laws).

Are hotels who do not allow dogs discriminating against those of us who own them??are hotels who do allow dogs discriminating against those of us who have asthma ?? what about me I am an asthmatic dog owner ???
If the question is do I think the above hotels are discriminating against the straight section of society, then yes they they be ? no probably they be allowed to ? yes
Should the christian owned hotel be allowed to ban homosexuals ? no
I know it's a terrible double standard isn't it...but as I said earlier minorities in our community HAVE to guard their right jealously no-one else will do it for them.So if by operating a discriminatory policy in certain places they allow themselves a haven from the day to day bigotry they experience then good for them...also
1..much as I like the gays there is no way on earth I would ever want to spend my holiday surrounded by them exclusively.
2..I have no doubt there are many alternative hotels in the relevant areas for non gay patrons...I doubt there are that many alternatives for gay patrons who wish to relax without the nods winks and whispers they no doubt attract in most hotels....we are you see, on the whole still a narrow minded prurient society, who like nothing more than a bit of gossip.
With all due respect, that's not true. Laws have been amended or introduced to bend over backwards and protect minorities with positive discrimination such as in the case we see now, or the interpretation and application of law is very one-sided.
If minority groups want equal rights then the playing field has to be level.

30 Jan 2011

Quote by swcpl2005
So for those who support the legal case against the couple with the B&B, I trust they would support similar legal action and criminal convictions against the owners of these following hotels who openly state on their websites they are Gay Only?

There are 100s of these advertised on the internet. I just picked on the first few links Google threw up.
The more I think about this B&B case the more I believe it was a Stonewall setup. Look at the B&B's website and they clearly state on their booking form what guests they want Is this any different to "gay only" requirements for the other hotels?
What these minority groups have to accept is that if they want equality then they have to reciprocate it unless they really believe some are less equal than others (which seems to be the case, as defined by our ridiculous laws).

Are hotels who do not allow dogs discriminating against those of us who own them??are hotels who do allow dogs discriminating against those of us who have asthma ?? what about me I am an asthmatic dog owner ???
If the question is do I think the above hotels are discriminating against the straight section of society, then yes they they be ? no probably they be allowed to ? yes
Should the christian owned hotel be allowed to ban homosexuals ? no
I know it's a terrible double standard isn't it...but as I said earlier minorities in our community HAVE to guard their right jealously no-one else will do it for them.So if by operating a discriminatory policy in certain places they allow themselves a haven from the day to day bigotry they experience then good for them...also
1..much as I like the gays there is no way on earth I would ever want to spend my holiday surrounded by them exclusively.
2..I have no doubt there are many alternative hotels in the relevant areas for non gay patrons...I doubt there are that many alternatives for gay patrons who wish to relax without the nods winks and whispers they no doubt attract in most hotels....we are you see, on the whole still a narrow minded prurient society, who like nothing more than a bit of gossip.
With all due respect, that's not true. Laws have been amended or introduced to bend over backwards and protect minorities with positive discrimination such as in the case we see now, or the interpretation and application of law is very one-sided.
If minority groups want equal rights then the playing field has to be level.
:thumbup:
For equal rights to work, they must surely be equal for all

30 Jan 2011

I assume blue you also apply this thinking to not providing special help to rural areas.
Level playing fields and all that.

30 Jan 2011

Quote by Ben_welshminx
I assume blue you also apply this thinking to not providing special help to rural areas.
Level playing fields and all that.

You may have to enlighten me Ben, what rights do we have in rural areas that are not available in city's and towns?
Don't think I suggested anywhere that minorities should not get any help?

30 Jan 2011

Quote by Bluefish2009
So for those who support the legal case against the couple with the B&B, I trust they would support similar legal action and criminal convictions against the owners of these following hotels who openly state on their websites they are Gay Only?

There are 100s of these advertised on the internet. I just picked on the first few links Google threw up.
The more I think about this B&B case the more I believe it was a Stonewall setup. Look at the B&B's website and they clearly state on their booking form what guests they want Is this any different to "gay only" requirements for the other hotels?
What these minority groups have to accept is that if they want equality then they have to reciprocate it unless they really believe some are less equal than others (which seems to be the case, as defined by our ridiculous laws).

Are hotels who do not allow dogs discriminating against those of us who own them??are hotels who do allow dogs discriminating against those of us who have asthma ?? what about me I am an asthmatic dog owner ???
If the question is do I think the above hotels are discriminating against the straight section of society, then yes they they be ? no probably they be allowed to ? yes
Should the christian owned hotel be allowed to ban homosexuals ? no
I know it's a terrible double standard isn't it...but as I said earlier minorities in our community HAVE to guard their right jealously no-one else will do it for them.So if by operating a discriminatory policy in certain places they allow themselves a haven from the day to day bigotry they experience then good for them...also
1..much as I like the gays there is no way on earth I would ever want to spend my holiday surrounded by them exclusively.
2..I have no doubt there are many alternative hotels in the relevant areas for non gay patrons...I doubt there are that many alternatives for gay patrons who wish to relax without the nods winks and whispers they no doubt attract in most hotels....we are you see, on the whole still a narrow minded prurient society, who like nothing more than a bit of gossip.
With all due respect, that's not true. Laws have been amended or introduced to bend over backwards and protect minorities with positive discrimination such as in the case we see now, or the interpretation and application of law is very one-sided.
If minority groups want equal rights then the playing field has to be level.
:thumbup:
I am not aware of any laws that positively discrimate in anyones favour..there have been many stories in the press about the possible introduction of such laws but as far as I'm aware non have been enacted...it has been made illegal to discriminate against people for many things ...this is not positive discrimination.
I agree for equal rights to exist we need a level playing field...until the Great British public let go of their prejudices we will never have one..until then minority groups will still have to fight to uphold their legal right to be treated equally...the very fact that we're having this debate is ample proof that the fight must continue
For equal rights to work, they must surely be equal for all

30 Jan 2011

Quote by Staggerlee_BB
I am not aware of any laws that positively discrimate in anyones favour..there have been many stories in the press about the possible introduction of such laws but as far as I'm aware non have been enacted...it has been made illegal to discriminate against people for many things ...this is not positive discrimination.
I agree for equal rights to exist we need a level playing field...until the Great British public let go of their prejudices we will never have one..until then minority groups will still have to fight to uphold their legal right to be treated equally...the very fact that we're having this debate is ample proof that the fight must continue
For equal rights to work, they must surely be equal for all

I am all for equal rights and support every effort made in that dirr3ection
You are not suggesting equal rights though are you?
Again, you make it sound that only your view is the correct one!

30 Jan 2011

Blue
I believe you support fuel subsidies for those living in rural areas.
These people are a minority that you feel deserve special treatment.
This view seems to run counter to your belief that we should have a level playing field.
And stag there are laws that encourage positive discrimination indeed all of the legisaltion relating to discrimination by gender/race/sexuality eitehr allows or encourages positive discrimination.

30 Jan 2011

I've always interpreted equal rights to mean equal right to the same opportunities. So, purely for example, 3 unemployed people want to learn bookeeping to get a job, but one is blind, one lives in a rural village with one bus a day in the wrong direction and the other lives quarter of a mile from the college and is fully non-disabled.
My definition of a civilised society won't say, well it's there - that's equal. We'll say, ok, the person living in the village gets reduced petrol, maybe a voucher or something to make it easier to get to college and the blind person gets a braille version of the text and software to convert other books to spoken word. The fit person that lives nearby can manage, if they don't have another reason to ask for assistance, they can manage without our intervention.
Of course, each has to make their own effort to actually turn up, do the work, sort out their own lunch etc. But provision has been made to gove each the same basic opportunity to obtain the learning.
I think that is an entirely different situation to the one about not being discriminated against, in dealings with businesses, because of any perceived fault or difference in the eyes of the business-provider.

30 Jan 2011

Quote by Bluefish2009

I am not aware of any laws that positively discriminate in anyones favour..there have been many stories in the press about the possible introduction of such laws but as far as I'm aware non have been enacted...it has been made illegal to discriminate against people for many things ...this is not positive discrimination.
I agree for equal rights to exist we need a level playing field...until the Great British public let go of their prejudices we will never have one..until then minority groups will still have to fight to uphold their legal right to be treated equally...the very fact that we're having this debate is ample proof that the fight must continue
For equal rights to work, they must surely be equal for all

I am all for equal rights and support every effort made in that dirr3ection
You are not suggesting equal rights though are you?
Again, you make it sound that only your view is the correct one!
I am indeed supporting equal rights....I don't believe that achieving equal rights for all is as simple as just putting legislation in place...as is evidenced by the fact that thousands of women are still paid less that their male co-workers....legislation is only a step it does not signal the end of the road
And of course I believe my view is the correct one,are you not guilty of the same....or do you mean that it sounds like I'm right but you're not sure??

30 Jan 2011

Quote by Ben_welshminx
Blue
I believe you support fuel subsidies for those living in rural areas.
These people are a minority that you feel deserve special treatment.
This view seems to run counter to your belief that we should have a level playing field.
And stag there are laws that encourage positive discrimination indeed all of the legisaltion relating to discrimination by gender/race/sexuality eitehr allows or encourages positive discrimination.

I would rather see fuel reduced for every one Ben, but that is not what is on offer. I see your point though, but feel help on standards of living should be given to those who require it, who fall bellow a certain standard of living no matter where they live, or whether they are part of a minority or not.
I thought we were talking about the law and discrimination, very different from people who are poor being given help to live, I am sure there are many who live in city's, town, urbun areas, who also receive help in one form or another. If peoples standard of living fall below a certain level I expect the Government to help.
What I am saying is that I expect the law to work on a level playing field, to treat every one in the same way, not favouring anyone because of colour, Creed, sexuality, or even if they are a minority from any any part of the country.

30 Jan 2011

Quote by Staggerlee_BB

I am not aware of any laws that positively discriminate in anyones favour..there have been many stories in the press about the possible introduction of such laws but as far as I'm aware non have been enacted...it has been made illegal to discriminate against people for many things ...this is not positive discrimination.
I agree for equal rights to exist we need a level playing field...until the Great British public let go of their prejudices we will never have one..until then minority groups will still have to fight to uphold their legal right to be treated equally...the very fact that we're having this debate is ample proof that the fight must continue
For equal rights to work, they must surely be equal for all

I am all for equal rights and support every effort made in that dirr3ection
You are not suggesting equal rights though are you?
Again, you make it sound that only your view is the correct one!
I am indeed supporting equal rights....I don't believe that achieving equal rights for all is as simple as just putting legislation in place...as is evidenced by the fact that thousands of women are still paid less that their male co-workers....legislation is only a step it does not signal the end of the road
And of course I believe my view is the correct one,are you not guilty of the same....or do you mean that it sounds like I'm right but you're not sure??
I am often unsure Stags, rarely am I 100% sure on any subject matter.. I have often changed my opinion on some thing or softened my view point because of things I read here, in the papers, or during discussions in the pub.
I think you are right, the fight must continue, but here is where we differ, not to give minority's more rights than majority's, but to give them equal rights. Any thing else will lead to resentment from one side or the other.

30 Jan 2011

Quote by foxylady2209
I've always interpreted equal rights to mean equal right to the same opportunities. So, purely for example, 3 unemployed people want to learn bookeeping to get a job, but one is blind, one lives in a rural village with one bus a day in the wrong direction and the other lives quarter of a mile from the college and is fully non-disabled.
My definition of a civilised society won't say, well it's there - that's equal. We'll say, ok, the person living in the village gets reduced petrol, maybe a voucher or something to make it easier to get to college and the blind person gets a braille version of the text and software to convert other books to spoken word. The fit person that lives nearby can manage, if they don't have another reason to ask for assistance, they can manage without our intervention.
Of course, each has to make their own effort to actually turn up, do the work, sort out their own lunch etc. But provision has been made to gove each the same basic opportunity to obtain the learning.
I think that is an entirely different situation to the one about not being discriminated against, in dealings with businesses, because of any perceived fault or difference in the eyes of the business-provider.

I would like to be associated with the speakers remarks, If only I could write my thought's as clearly and eloquently.

30 Jan 2011

Quote by Bluefish2009
I think you are right, the fight must continue, but here is where we differ, not to give minority's more rights than majority's, but to give them equal rights. Any thing else will lead to resentment from one side or the other.

I'm not (you may be surprised to hear) a great advocate of positive discrimination myself,but I don't think the issue here is or has ever really been positive discrimination (it may well have been introduced as a red herring)...the issue as I see it is that some seem to believe that it is an outrage that a couple of impertinent poofs had the temerity to insist that the hotel they wished to stay at complied with the law....and that alone tells me there is a long way to go before we reach any recognisable level of equality in our society

30 Jan 2011

Quote by Staggerlee_BB

I think you are right, the fight must continue, but here is where we differ, not to give minority's more rights than majority's, but to give them equal rights. Any thing else will lead to resentment from one side or the other.

I'm not (you may be surprised to hear) a great advocate of positive discrimination myself,but I don't think the issue here is or has ever really been positive discrimination (it may well have been introduced as a red herring)...the issue as I see it is that some seem to believe that it is an outrage that a couple of impertinent poofs had the temerity to insist that the hotel they wished to stay at complied with the law....and that alone tells me there is a long way to go before we reach any recognisable level of equality in our society
I can not disagree with any thing you have written, the law is the law and the hotelier must comply.
But, equally, I would like to see any hotel, club, etc, set up for minority's only, treated in exactly the same manor, should they discriminate against members of any majority.

30 Jan 2011

Positive discrimination in action, allowed by the law:

30 Jan 2011

Quote by swcpl2005
Positive discrimination in action, allowed by the law:

Maybe we could do the same with MP's ban anyone with and Ox-bridge education from becoming MP's for a year or two
http://www.swingingheaven.co.uk/swingers-forum/viewtopic/358734.html

30 Jan 2011

We can have the best laws/rules in the world, but the problem is that a human being implements them.........

30 Jan 2011

DOesnt the laour party have a postive discrimination policy when it come to selecting parliamentary candidates?