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common sense or social cleansing

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So it would appear the government wish to push ahead with the benefit cap. The cap is to be set at a week, more than fair I would suggest. However because of this some people who live in what might be considered an expensive area may have to move into more affordable accommodation.
Surely this is just common sense?
On Monday the government revised up its estimate of how many households would be affected - from 50,000 to 67,000, although the amount of money they would lose was revised down from £93-a-week to £83-a-week.
The cap would be £500 a week, equivalent to the average wage earned by working households, after tax.
He rejected suggestions children could be pushed into poverty by the cap, saying that assumed families would not move house.
And he denied that some families would be left homeless, saying there was "no reason" why a family on £26,000 a year would not be able to find suitable accommodation.

why should benefits pay more to someone rather than working dunno
surely bluefish that is why we have these mad things where peeple are living in 1000 pound a week to rent houses.
the average wage to work is about 25 thousand pounds a year, why should someone on benefits get any more than that?
of course labour will not be up for this as they would look at it as a vote loser, hence why so many have said but failed to tackle the welfare system.
surely not working should be paid less than working and if peeple are living in expensive areas for rent purposes, they should be given a maximum of say three months to find work and then there rent will be cut to " a normal amount ".
only good can come out of this surely, and common sense politics?
we have to look at getting peeple out of the mindset of working is not good.
Yes people living in expensive accommodation paid for by the benefits system does hurt and even some living in 1 million pound accommodation in areas of London, but there again, asking someone who through no fault of thier own is unemployed and needs help to move away from thier roots, thier family and thier friends isn't really nice either.
Perhaps there could be a clause to look at individual situations on appeal, If you have lived in a rented house in Chelsea for many years and fell on the hard times of the recession you are not quite the same as someone who moves into an expensive house for a week then declares themselves in need of benefit assistance. If you have lived in a rural area for a long time with little rented accommodation available and forced to rent somewhere quite expensive it is not quite the same as arriving in Westminster, renting a million pound flat then going on benefits.
Basically it is about spotting those that are abusing the system not punishing those that need it.
Should have been done years ago...............
It's worth remembering how it is that the current state of affairs came about, it being a direct consequence of previous Conservative govt policy in the 80s. The govt effectively decided that state-funded social housing ran contrary to their free market / personal responsibility ethos, and so they decided they would sell off social housing to those living in it at tax-payer subsidised prices, preventing councils re-investing the take in new housing, invite housing agencies to take some of it off their hands, and incentivise the private sector to pick up the slack by abolishing rent controls. Fine.
Now they find that 20 years later, thanks to a sustained housing boom in large part encouraged by govt policy, the free floating market rents they said were what they wanted are actually quite a bit higher than they maybe envisaged at the time, verging on unsustainable so what do they do? Punish tenants, like they're the ones responsible. Sorry, you might have lived here all your life with all your family and friends around you but I'm afraid you're gonna have to move to an area miles away from London or wherever cos unfortunately we've decided we don't want to pay what your landlords charging. It's not the landlord that's charging too much, it's not the fault of policies we put into place, it's yours, cos you were unfortunate enough to be born in an area that we're now intending be available only to better folk who can pay for the privelege out of their own pocket.
It's fucking outrageous. The govt are desperately trying to tell us the number affected will be minimal, but what it means is that families are gonna be forced to areas they don't know, with no familial support around them, and that can only lead to an increase in the kind of social isolation and exclusion that lies at the root of so many of the social problems everyone gets up in arms about. Course, any problems that arise won't be the govt's fault either will it, it'll be the fault of the individuals affected, and we'll do what we always do: beat 'em with the Criminal Justice stick when shit happens.
Howdy Neil, keep furtling.
Shirley Porter
The road to Wigan pier
all you need to know
Quote by neilinleeds
It's worth remembering how it is that the current state of affairs came about, it being a direct consequence of previous Conservative govt policy in the 80s. The govt effectively decided that state-funded social housing ran contrary to their free market / personal responsibility ethos, and so they decided they would sell off social housing to those living in it at tax-payer subsidised prices, preventing councils re-investing the take in new housing, invite housing agencies to take some of it off their hands, and incentivise the private sector to pick up the slack by abolishing rent controls. Fine.
Now they find that 20 years later, thanks to a sustained housing boom in large part encouraged by govt policy, the free floating market rents they said were what they wanted are actually quite a bit higher than they maybe envisaged at the time, verging on unsustainable so what do they do? Punish tenants, like they're the ones responsible. Sorry, you might have lived here all your life with all your family and friends around you but I'm afraid you're gonna have to move to an area miles away from London or wherever cos unfortunately we've decided we don't want to pay what your landlords charging. It's not the landlord that's charging too much, it's not the fault of policies we put into place, it's yours, cos you were unfortunate enough to be born in an area that we're now intending be available only to better folk who can pay for the privelege out of their own pocket.
It's fucking outrageous. The govt are desperately trying to tell us the number affected will be minimal, but what it means is that families are gonna be forced to areas they don't know, with no familial support around them, and that can only lead to an increase in the kind of social isolation and exclusion that lies at the root of so many of the social problems everyone gets up in arms about. Course, any problems that arise won't be the govt's fault either will it, it'll be the fault of the individuals affected, and we'll do what we always do: beat 'em with the Criminal Justice stick when shit happens.

I could not afford to buy where my family live as I can not afford to, so had to move away. Why should the state/taxpayer subsidize those that rent?
Y'alright Ben? How's tricks? ;) Good post that wannit? I was pleased with it anyways, though I reckon only you and Staggers will agree with my analysis, but hey. :P
Quote by Bluefish2009
It's worth remembering how it is that the current state of affairs came about, it being a direct consequence of previous Conservative govt policy in the 80s. The govt effectively decided that state-funded social housing ran contrary to their free market / personal responsibility ethos, and so they decided they would sell off social housing to those living in it at tax-payer subsidised prices, preventing councils re-investing the take in new housing, invite housing agencies to take some of it off their hands, and incentivise the private sector to pick up the slack by abolishing rent controls. Fine.
Now they find that 20 years later, thanks to a sustained housing boom in large part encouraged by govt policy, the free floating market rents they said were what they wanted are actually quite a bit higher than they maybe envisaged at the time, verging on unsustainable so what do they do? Punish tenants, like they're the ones responsible. Sorry, you might have lived here all your life with all your family and friends around you but I'm afraid you're gonna have to move to an area miles away from London or wherever cos unfortunately we've decided we don't want to pay what your landlords charging. It's not the landlord that's charging too much, it's not the fault of policies we put into place, it's yours, cos you were unfortunate enough to be born in an area that we're now intending be available only to better folk who can pay for the privelege out of their own pocket.
It's fucking outrageous. The govt are desperately trying to tell us the number affected will be minimal, but what it means is that families are gonna be forced to areas they don't know, with no familial support around them, and that can only lead to an increase in the kind of social isolation and exclusion that lies at the root of so many of the social problems everyone gets up in arms about. Course, any problems that arise won't be the govt's fault either will it, it'll be the fault of the individuals affected, and we'll do what we always do: beat 'em with the Criminal Justice stick when shit happens.

I could not afford to buy where my family live as I can not afford to, so had to move away. Why should the state/taxpayer subsidize those that rent?
Why not rent .... I'd suggest a council property, oh hang on, no, bugger
Quote by Staggerlee_BB

I could not afford to buy where my family live as I can not afford to, so had to move away. Why should the state/taxpayer subsidize those that rent?
Why not rent
Because I did not wish to dunno
Quote by Bluefish2009

I could not afford to buy where my family live as I can not afford to, so had to move away. Why should the state/taxpayer subsidize those that rent?
Why not rent
Because I did not wish to dunno
So owning your house was more important to you than living near your family etc. The bit in bold not strictly true then ..... you pays your money...
Quote by Staggerlee_BB
So owning your house was more important to you than living near your family etc. The bit in bold not strictly true then ..... you pays your money...

Where did I say that? To make myself clear,
Its a village, only a limited amount council houses which were full. Tricky for a single male to get any where near the top of a housing list
For the first seven years after I left the village I lived in a dilapidated mobile home in the next village. The best I could afford. The opportunity to buy came much latter in life, but I still can not afford to live or move back where my family are as it is too expensive.
Quote by Bluefish2009
For the first seven years after I left the village I lived in a dilapidated mobile home in the next village. The best I could afford. The opportunity to buy came much latter in life, but I still can not afford to live or move back where my family are as it is too expensive.

There's two ways you can look at that Blue I think. You can either say it's a shame you had to do that cos there weren't more options available to you, whether as affordable rented accomodation that helped you stay within your community while you got on your feet or as sustainable low-cost private property you could afford to buy into, and maybe we should look at that and have a bit of a rethink on housing provision, OR you can say tough shit buddy, sucks a bit that dunnit, but you know what, the people who've managed to buy really like it when the stuff rockets up in price to the exclusion of people like you, sorry you missed the boat.
Trouble is people are so invested in property they're prepared to go with option two forever, blind to the consequences as far as the social fabric of the country is concerned, so long as there's the possibility of monetary personal gain. It's been amply demonstrated in recent years that the housing bubble is no longer sustainable and unless things change at some point we're gonna have an even worse crisis on our hands than the one we have now, but instead of looking at other options that might actually make sense long-term and provide real social benefits, people like you will go with 'I can't afford that and I work for a living, I'm buggered if they're having it' in some mad race to the bottom, and then later on you'll be up in arms complaining when the thing you said you wanted turns out to have consequences you didn't quite foresee.
Quote by neilinleeds
For the first seven years after I left the village I lived in a dilapidated mobile home in the next village. The best I could afford. The opportunity to buy came much latter in life, but I still can not afford to live or move back where my family are as it is too expensive.

There's two ways you can look at that Blue I think. You can either say it's a shame you had to do that cos there weren't more options available to you, whether as affordable rented accomodation that helped you stay within your community while you got on your feet or as sustainable low-cost private property you could afford to buy into, and maybe we should look at that and have a bit of a rethink on housing provision, OR you can say tough shit buddy, sucks a bit that dunnit, but you know what, the people who've managed to buy really like it when the stuff rockets up in price to the exclusion of people like you, sorry you missed the boat.
Trouble is people are so invested in property they're prepared to go with option two forever, blind to the consequences as far as the social fabric of the country is concerned, so long as there's the possibility of monetary personal gain. It's been amply demonstrated in recent years that the housing bubble is no longer sustainable and unless things change at some point we're gonna have an even worse crisis on our hands than the one we have now, but instead of looking at other options that might actually make sense long-term and provide real social benefits, people like you will go with 'I can't afford that and I work for a living, I'm buggered if they're having it' in some mad race to the bottom, and then later on you'll be up in arms complaining when the thing you said you wanted turns out to have consequences you didn't quite foresee.
I think it is less about what I can afford and more about what the government can afford dunno It is after all the government implementing the cap. A very sensible cap.
I feel people should live where they can afford to live. As many of us have too. That should leave more money in the pot for people who really need the benefits
Quote by Bluefish2009
I feel people should live where they can afford to live. As many of us have too. That should leave more money in the pot for people who really need the benefits

why peeple cannot see that simple logic bluefish, i do not know.:thumbup:
or can peeple see it but choose to argue the opposite just because they can dunno
Quote by starlightcouple

I feel people should live where they can afford to live. As many of us have too. That should leave more money in the pot for people who really need the benefits

why peeple cannot see that simple logic bluefish, i do not know.:thumbup:
or can peeple see it but choose to argue the opposite just because they can dunno
No it's because it is not that simple .... whilst they spend time bemoaning the break up of communities and the loss of social responsibility the government introduces a seemingly endless array of policy that can only exacerbate the situation .... why oh why can some people not seee this
Quote by Staggerlee_BB

I feel people should live where they can afford to live. As many of us have too. That should leave more money in the pot for people who really need the benefits

why peeple cannot see that simple logic bluefish, i do not know.:thumbup:
or can peeple see it but choose to argue the opposite just because they can dunno
No it's because it is not that simple .... whilst they spend time bemoaning the break up of communities and the loss of social responsibility the government introduces a seemingly endless array of policy that can only exacerbate the situation .... why oh why can some people not seee this
I feel it is very simple, if you can afford to live in an area then live there, if you can not, then find some where you can. I do not see that the tax payer should fund those who can not live within there means.
Quote by starlightcouple

I feel people should live where they can afford to live. As many of us have too. That should leave more money in the pot for people who really need the benefits

why peeple cannot see that simple logic bluefish, i do not know.:thumbup:
or can peeple see it but choose to argue the opposite just because they can dunno
Not a clue Star. It is simple math, you can not keep giving away what we do not have, as the last Labour Government have proved.
Quote by Bluefish2009

I feel people should live where they can afford to live. As many of us have too. That should leave more money in the pot for people who really need the benefits

why peeple cannot see that simple logic bluefish, i do not know.:thumbup:
or can peeple see it but choose to argue the opposite just because they can dunno
No it's because it is not that simple .... whilst they spend time bemoaning the break up of communities and the loss of social responsibility the government introduces a seemingly endless array of policy that can only exacerbate the situation .... why oh why can some people not seee this
I feel it is very simple, if you can afford to live in an area then live there, if you can not, then find some where you can. I do not see that the tax payer should fund those who can not live within there means.
You're wrong Blue ... even as far as your assessment of this policy .. people do not live in places they cannot afford (not for long) they can't afford it you see ... limiting the assistance available to them may well in many cases mean they can no longer afford their homes.
So ... some questions
1: what effect will the sudden demand for lower rent properties do to the rents of those properties ??
2: What effect will the sudden availability of higher rent properties do to their value ??
3: Who will benefit/profit from these changes ??
4: Who will lose out ??
Quote by Staggerlee_BB
limiting the assistance available to them may well in many cases mean they can no longer afford their homes.

If removing benefits means you can not afford where you live, then you should not be living their.
Only those that have fallen upon harder times, as Mids mentions above, in my view should be given any leeway
Quote by Bluefish2009

limiting the assistance available to them may well in many cases mean they can no longer afford their homes.

If removing benefits means you can not afford where you live, then you should not be living their.
Only those that have fallen upon harder times, as Mids mentions above, in my view should be given any leeway
I can only assume that you have the figures to hand that show that this would only occur in a small minority of cases
And if removing benefits means you can no longer afford your home,then millions of people from the Queen and the Prime Minister to many of the inhabitants of the estate I live on would be seeking alternative accommodation
I shall also assume you've ignored my questions because the answers do not serve your argument.
Quote by Staggerlee_BB

limiting the assistance available to them may well in many cases mean they can no longer afford their homes.

If removing benefits means you can not afford where you live, then you should not be living their.
Only those that have fallen upon harder times, as Mids mentions above, in my view should be given any leeway
I can only assume that you have the figures to hand that show that this would only occur in a small minority of cases
And if removing benefits means you can no longer afford your home,then millions of people from the Queen and the Prime Minister to many of the inhabitants of the estate I live on would be seeking alternative accommodation
I shall also assume you've ignored my questions because the answers do not serve your argument.
Assumption, the mother of all feck ups
Benefits are not being removed, only capped at £500 a week, equivalent to the average wage earned by working households, after tax. a year. I could afford to live near my family with that
Quote by Bluefish2009
It is simple math, you can not keep giving away what we do not have, as the last Labour Government have proved.

thats socialism for you blue. keep spending then when that runs out, take more from the rich. simple and fare logic. unless you are rich of course.loon
Quote by Bluefish2009
Benefits are not being removed, only capped at £500 a week, equivalent to the average wage earned by working households, after tax. a year. I could afford to live near my family with that

remember also bluefish that you or myself would have to earn pounds to get that figure in our pockets. i shall say again bluefish THIRTY TWO THOUSAND POUNDS GROSS!.
a lotg more than the average wage would be. and peeple out there and on here think that is unfair. what party politics madness is that manifesto from dunno
Quote by starlightcouple
thats socialism for you blue. keep spending then when that runs out, take more from the rich. simple and fare logic. unless you are rich of course.loon

No! The point is, and God knows I'm trying to make this simple for you, if it had not been for the policies of previous govts, with the full support of those who voted for them, the current problem would not have come to exist in the first place.
We're not suggesting the answer is to keep taking from the rich. We're suggesting that if they'd thought it through properly in the first place we wouldn't now be taking from the poor, as if they're the ones at fault. The govt decided social housing was a thing of the past. The govt decided they wanted tenants to be housed primarily by the private sector. The govt decided they wanted rents to float at market rates. Now they're saying having got what they wanted they don't like how much it costs. Shouldn't they have thought about that first? It's an inevitable consequence of their housing policy given enough time. Surely they weren't stupid enough not to see it coming, or so stupid that when they did realise that's what was happening chose to completely ignore it? They couldn't be that thick, could they?
god this is a real conundrum this one
live beyond my means
or live comfortably somewhere else
nope you got me on this one dunno
average wage £25,000, you must be joking! lol
in wales the average wage is approx £15,000 if your lucky.!
one of our sons has two degrees, yet cant get a job in his chosen career path,and now works in a local shop for the average wage of £6+ an hour, hes one of the lucky ones as there are no jobs in our town or surrounding areas;the only choice is to leave family and friends and look at london or abroad; :sad: where there is obviously a lot more competition for jobs! :sad:
Quote by steve-j
average wage £25,000, you must be joking! lol
in wales the average wage is approx £15,000 if your lucky.!
one of our sons has two degrees, yet cant get a job in his chosen career path,and now works in a local shop for the average wage of £6+ an hour, hes one of the lucky ones as there are no jobs in our town or surrounding areas;the only choice is to leave family and friends and look at london or abroad; :sad: where there is obviously a lot more competition for jobs! :sad:

Quite.
But then the country as a whole is hardly awash with folk claiming a couple of grand a month in benefits. A fantastic piece of spin doctoring yet again. I suspect its designed to take away attention form the benefit cuts that really are gonna hit the old the disabled and the poor very hard.
Quote by Ben_Minx
But then the country as a whole is hardly awash with folk claiming a couple of grand a month in benefits.

indeed not ben eh :doh:

unless of course you are now disputing the figures from the Department for Work and Pensions ? or unless of course you think households is not a lot?
so there you go ben. hard cold facts, and not an out of date opinion that you have given.
unless of course it was just an assumption dunno
seems so innocent