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Dale Farm

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Quote by starlightcouple
moving onto green belt land this morning i think i would last three weeks if that, before the bailiffs came knocking, and there is nothing to stop that from happening to me no matter what game i thought i was playing mr notts.
laws there for everyone? laws treat everyone the same? i would only beleeve that if i never went out the house or never watched any news. certainly the laws are there to protect certain members of the comunity, unfortunatly i do not fall into that catagory.

Somewhat longer, I would venture to suggest - unless of course, it was someone else's land.
You seem to forget that this land was in their ownership and a hairs breadth away from land not in the green belt which had already been assigned for 'traveller' use.
There may also have been political shifts in the will of the Local Authority during that time too. wink
I'm not defending the travellers at Dale Farm nor do I condone lawlessness but you cannot judge apples with pears so glibly.
Quote by GnV
but you cannot judge apples with pears so glibly.

ok shall we say grapefruit then? lol
I think you can stay on any site or your own land for 28 days before planning permission would be required
Ahhhhhh now it is coming out Star. You believe the travellers have played the race card. This is just plain and simple planning law and they are using the mechanisms within that law to prolong the outcome.
You stated that only big business or minorities can use this law. Yet a member of this forum already stated that he had used it and he was not a traveller or big business. Any person can use it. Just look up your own councils planning portal and see how many residents have put in a retrospective planning application.
The land they moved onto was not greenbelt land.
Dave_Notts
Quote by Dave__Notts
Ahhhhhh now it is coming out Star. You believe the travellers have played the race card. This is just plain and simple planning law and they are using the mechanisms within that law to prolong the outcome.
You stated that only big business or minorities can use this law. Yet a member of this forum already stated that he had used it and he was not a traveller or big business. Any person can use it. Just look up your own councils planning portal and see how many residents have put in a retrospective planning application.
The land they moved onto was not greenbelt land.
Dave_Notts

"Basildon council has repeatedly said that planning applications for the caravans and chalets on the Essex site were rejected because the land was green belt. Residents say it should be reclassified as brownfield land because it has been a scrapyard for more than 40 years. John Dornan, a Tory councillor for Basildon, has spoken of his memories of visiting the scrapyard in the 60s."
from the guardian newspaper.
i think i will take the words in this case of basildon council.
greenbelt or brown belt it makes no difference reely as they know and i know and now the courts know that what they did and continue to do is illegal.
out on Monday morning bright and early. i heer it is going to rain as well.

Dale Farm is fundamentally a planning dispute. The travellers' site has been illegally developed on green belt land
now your telling us mr notts that you are right and the leeder of the very council evicting these peeple are wrong.
the courts agree with the council.
so i will not say this again as it is getting a bit boring now.
the leeder of basildon council cleerly states the reasons why the council have applied for the eviction.
the courts and the judges have agreed with the council, and the evictions start tomorrow.
now if you think still that it is not green belt land mr notts may i suggest you write to the leeder of basildon council and the right honourable judges who signed the death warrant for there " travelers " abd say you think that it is not green belt land.
i am sure you could possibly put in an aplication to halt the eviction mr notts as i am sure you know how the game is played here aparently.:notes:
Quote by starlightcouple
Dale Farm is fundamentally a planning dispute.

I am glad you have started to understand this simple point.
Yep, a planning dispute not minorities.
I knew you would work it out in the end
Dave_Notts
Quote by Dave__Notts
Dale Farm is fundamentally a planning dispute.

I am glad you have started to understand this simple point.
Yep, a planning dispute not minorities.
I knew you would work it out in the end
Dave_Notts
i worked it out before you did mr notts. :thumbup:
the problem with your above quote of " dale farm is fundamentally a planning dispute " is fine but why leeve the other part of the sentance out which clearly says " The travellers' site has been illegally developed on green belt land "!!
Very clever mr notts how you use only the part of the debate that you want to use.
it is only a planning dispute because they built on green belt land.
you i think mr notts certainly know how to play the game on here.
i shall ask you just one more time by asking you is the leeder of the council who is taking this action wrong by saying it is green belt land?
seams mr notts the points you are trying your best to debate with have no fundamentals at all.
i think others can see cleerly that they brought green belt land and built on green belt land with no planning permission. i beleeve that if they had brought brown belt land and built on it, that the judge would have said they could stay there. the argument has always been the fact of green belt land.
but you know that alredy mr notts, don't you? blink
Quote by starlightcouple
Dale Farm is fundamentally a planning dispute.

I am glad you have started to understand this simple point.
Yep, a planning dispute not minorities.
I knew you would work it out in the end
Dave_Notts
i worked it out before you did mr notts. :thumbup:
the problem with your above quote of " dale farm is fundamentally a planning dispute " is fine but why leeve the other part of the sentance out which clearly says " The travellers' site has been illegally developed on green belt land "!!
Very clever mr notts how you use only the part of the debate that you want to use.
it is only a planning dispute because they built on green belt land.
you i think mr notts certainly know how to play the game on here.
i shall ask you just one more time by asking you is the leeder of the council who is taking this action wrong by saying it is green belt land?
seams mr notts the points you are trying your best to debate with have no fundamentals at all.
i think others can see cleerly that they brought green belt land and built on green belt land with no planning permission. i beleeve that if they had brought brown belt land and built on it, that the judge would have said they could stay there. the argument has always been the fact of green belt land.
but you know that alredy mr notts, don't you? blink
are you suggesting Dave Notts selectively argues points and deliberately avoids other points that makes his previous statements opinions and not facts
I'm shocked that anyone would blacken his character in this manner
rotflmao:rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao:
I wish someone would give the needle a nudge cos i'm sure its got stuck on this particular record.
Quote by GeraldineBBW
I wish someone would give the needle a nudge cos i'm sure its got stuck on this particular record.

rotflmao :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
There's none so blind as them as cannae see, though what that has to do with your particular repetitive auditory issues I do not know. ;)
Quote by DaveNotts
. . . Stuff . . .

To be fair Dave, Starlight was clearly driving at the green belt issue. He seems to think that negates all your previous arguments for some reason? I dunno, I don't think it does, does it, but then I'm not an expert on planning legislation so can't really say either way? confused ;)
Just to muddy the waters still further, look what I found while I was still Googling the background to see which one of you was right . . . .

I'm trying to find a more authentic source for this. Wonder how far that goes towards explaining the Council's difficulty securing an eviction as regards the whole brownfield / green belt issue, or if indeed the Council's previous development of so-called green belt land as though it were brownfield is even relevant, assuming it to be true for the sake of argument?
N x x x ;)
the whole thing is a 18 million pound mess neil.
" In a blow to the council, which had hoped to return the area to greenbelt land, the judge ruled that walls and fences must be left in place".
the issue on many ocasions was the green belt issue, and now the judge says that walls and fences cannot be removed. this whole problem has been made worse by a judicial system that frankly is in the dark ages. the issues should be much cleerer in that nobody can build on green belt land and if they do then the law can evict and knock down within a month.
i understand mr notts debates on this issue but things are not sometimes as clear as even mr notts seams to think they are. yes this was a planning issue about building on green belt land. one goes into the other.
if nothing else i hope that the councils out there recognise what has happened here and i am sure there are many other councils that have green belt areas, where travelers could buy up and just move on law needs to change to a degree where there are no grey areas. green belt land equals NO building on it.
I wrote all the way back on page two.
Quote by Dave__Notts
Not disagreeing Star that the law should be done and be seen to be done in the case of Dale Farm
My belief is that in these cases both should be dealt with exactly the same, whether they are Traveller or business
Dave_Notts

So no, the issue is not green belt or brown belt but fairness. The law not only has to be applied but be seen to be applied. Throughout the whole episode the law has been used by the authorities and the applicants in the way that it can. Just because you do not like the outcome of how it is used does not make it wrong. Only the courts can decide whether it is or is not. The applicant can then challenge the authorities/courts decision until all avenues have been exhausted. At Dale Farm the applicants are only using the law that is there for everyone to use.
This is my disagreement with your statement. You claim it is because they are “Travellers”. This is where you are plainly wrong. Any person can use this way if they so desire. Just because the “Travellers” use it does not make it favouritism to them. It is a legal avenue that has been used by business and members of the public for years. For example if you type in Retrospective Planning Application into Maidstone Councils website it comes up with a list of them.
Dave_Notts
Quote by Lizaleanrob
are you suggesting Dave Notts selectively argues points and deliberately avoids other points that makes his previous statements opinions and not facts

Planning Law Lizzy is a basis of fact.
Whether people think it is right or wrong is an opinion.
I have argued on the point of law that it is an avenue for all. So it is not my opinion but fact.
Dave_Notts

says it all reely.
because of the rights they now have and use on many occasions to there advantage, it most certainly makes a difference.
i beleeve as do many others that in the dale farm issue they were favoured upon by not only members of the local council, but also by way of law.
many beleeve that had they been mr smith and mr jones and family who had built on green belt land, the council would not be trying to get them out after ten yeers. the law favours some sections of the comunity over others. the law is certainly not equal to all and if some peeple fall into the minority section in my mind and many others they get preferential treatment.
i beleeve that same preferential treatment was alocated to the illegal travelers who settled at dale farm and after ten yeers of legal bullshit are still there.
there is no fairness in law and certainly no equalities in law.
an example.



sorry about the daily mail as a source. lol
if they get obvius preferential treatment then i beleeve that they have had it also in dale farm dispute many times. so no i do not beleeve that the law is equal for everyone and certainly not in this case. that is i beleeve why most peeple are so angry over the dale farm issue as they know had they built on land the council would not be treating everyone the same and nether would the law.:thumbup:
Quote by starlightcouple
this whole problem has been made worse by a judicial system that frankly is in the dark ages. the issues should be much cleerer in that nobody can build on green belt land and if they do then the law can evict and knock down within a month.

I agree with you on this point, except I would enlarge it to include all planning legislation...............but my opinion is that business/lobbyists will fight any change to it as it will impinge on them.
Dave_Notts
Quote by starlightcouple
i beleeve as do many others ............
many beleeve .............
in my mind and many others .................
i beleeve....................
i beleeve that..........
i beleeve....................

Thats the problem with your argument.........you believe, but never substantiate any of your points.
I can understand the sentiment behind some of what you are saying and can sympathise with some of the points. Yet I can't agree with what you are saying as it reads as if "Travellers" have more rights. The first link quoted the two main acts that protects "Travellers" but they protect every person in the UK not just "Travellers".
Quote by Dave__Notts

i beleeve as do many others ............
many beleeve .............
in my mind and many others .................
i beleeve....................
i beleeve that..........
i beleeve....................

Thats the problem with your argument.........you believe, but never substantiate any of your points.
I can understand the sentiment behind some of what you are saying and can sympathise with some of the points. Yet I can't agree with what you are saying as it reads as if "Travellers" have more rights. The first link quoted the two main acts that protects "Travellers" but they protect every person in the UK not just "Travellers".
then why did those articles just refere to travelers?
they were articles stating that travelers get preferential treatment over others, and they do.:thumbup:
also is there anything wrong in saying i beleeve? can i not have an opinion? as that is what i think. there are sections of our comunity out there who get better treatment than the average person. google it, i have.
i think i have more than substantiated my points mr notts. in this instance it is you that beleeve differantly.
Quote by starlightcouple
then why did those articles just refere to travelers?
they were articles stating that travelers get preferential treatment over others, and they do.:thumbup:
also is there anything wrong in saying i beleeve? can i not have an opinion? as that is what i think. there are sections of our comunity out there who get better treatment than the average person. google it, i have.
i think i have more than substantiated my points mr notts. in this instance it is you that beleeve differantly.

Although PCTs do not necessarily have to follow the guidelines, they could be breaking human rights law and the Race Relations Act of 2000 if they do not.

Check the words out that are highlighted from your link. This is really your proof?
The preferential treatment is something they do not have to follow and if they fail to abide by it they could be in breach.
Why did those articles just refer to "Travellers"? Why do you think? I know why I think they have only named them.........and by your quoting of them, it worked
Dave_Notts
Quote by Dave__Notts

i beleeve as do many others ............
many beleeve .............
in my mind and many others .................
i beleeve....................
i beleeve that..........
i beleeve....................

Thats the problem with your argument.........you believe, but never substantiate any of your points.
I can understand the sentiment behind some of what you are saying and can sympathise with some of the points. Yet I can't agree with what you are saying as it reads as if "Travellers" have more rights. The first link quoted the two main acts that protects "Travellers" but they protect every person in the UK not just "Travellers".
There you go Dave, just for you...
Quote by Dave__Notts

are you suggesting Dave Notts selectively argues points and deliberately avoids other points that makes his previous statements opinions and not facts

Planning Law Lizzy is a basis of fact.
Whether people think it is right or wrong is an opinion.
I have argued on the point of law that it is an avenue for all. So it is not my opinion but fact.
Dave_Notts
aww davy im only teasing you (and on about the greenbelt issue actually)
bolt
This has so far been an interesting and entertaining debate.
In my local town, Asda are planning a new supper-store.

The thing here is that no planning permission has yet been granted, yet ground work and foundations have begun. To do this they must be very confident they will get their permission to build or not worried about loosing the money they have already invested. I suspect the later, they can afford to loose the money should the planning fall through.
Which in my view means that not all these loop holes are open to all, but only to those that can afford to loose such sums!
Ok they maybe open to all but only some can afford to exploit them
Quote by Bluefish2009
Ok they maybe open to all but only some can afford to exploit them

so bluefish IF you decided to build an extension on the side of your house without planning permission, and the council told you that you had to take it down, how long do you think you could play the game for before they had you in court and the judge ordering you to take it down?
a month perhaps or what about three months? ten yeers?
are you a betting man mr bluefish wink
how long as mr normal do you think you could play the council with your extension?
as long as dale farm residents have been given do you think?
Quote by starlightcouple

Ok they maybe open to all but only some can afford to exploit them

so bluefish IF you decided to build an extension on the side of your house without planning permission, and the council told you that you had to take it down, how long do you think you could play the game for before they had you in court and the judge ordering you to take it down?
a month perhaps or what about three months? ten yeers?
are you a betting man mr bluefish wink
how long as mr normal do you think you could play the council with your extension?
as long as dale farm residents have been given do you think?
Im going with 6 months....
Where work for which planning permission was required is carried out without permission being obtained the local authority can take enforcement action to force the owner of the property for the time being (which may not be the person that owned the property at the time the work was done) to take whatever actions necessary to remedy the breach of planning law.
This may simply mean making or application for permission, or it may mean removing or altering an offending structure or refraining from using the property for an unlawful purpose. Initially the local authority will contact the property owner to ask him to remedy the breach but, if he fails to do so, they will serve an enforcement notice. This will give the owner 6 months to comply and failure to do so will result in the local authority carrying out the work themselves at the owner’s expense as well as issuing a fine of £25,000. Failure to pay the fine or the cost of the work can result in imprisonment.

Quote by Bluefish2009
Im going with 6 months....
Where work for which planning permission was required is carried out without permission being obtained the local authority can take enforcement action to force the owner of the property for the time being (which may not be the person that owned the property at the time the work was done) to take whatever actions necessary to remedy the breach of planning law.
This may simply mean making or application for permission, or it may mean removing or altering an offending structure or refraining from using the property for an unlawful purpose. Initially the local authority will contact the property owner to ask him to remedy the breach but, if he fails to do so, they will serve an enforcement notice. This will give the owner 6 months to comply and failure to do so will result in the local authority carrying out the work themselves at the owner’s expense as well as issuing a fine of £25,000. Failure to pay the fine or the cost of the work can result in imprisonment.

So within 6 months all you have to do is put in an application. Thats stage 1 and six months gained. So that is slightly more than 1 or 3 months straight away.
Dave_Notts
" This will give the owner 6 months to comply and failure to do so will result in the local authority carrying out the work themselves at the owner’s expense as well as issuing a fine of £25,000. Failure to pay the fine or the cost of the work can result in imprisonment."
i do not see any of the residents of dale farm being issued with any fines or any threat of being sent to prison, or the council carrying out the any works themselves.
in fact what i do see are a bunch of illegal peeple taking ten yeers to finally get given the red light. no prosecution, no prison and no fines at all.
funny how mr smith and mr jones of normal avenue out there, would get fined or the threat of prison or actual prison for simply building a wall or going six inches over with there garden shed. :twisted:
Quote by starlightcouple
i do not see any of the residents of dale farm being issued with any fines or any threat of being sent to prison, or the council carrying out the any works themselves.

Only when the process has been completed can the courts issue these fines or other punishments.
Quote by starlightcouple
in fact what i do see are a bunch of illegal peeple taking ten yeers to finally get given the red light. no prosecution, no prison and no fines at all.

If they do not move on or do as the courts say at the end of the process will a criminal act be committed. In fact I do not see prosecutions, prison or fines for all people that have been arrested.............ahhhhh thats because of innocent until proven guilty. Or would you prefer we jail everybody first then release those that are found innocent.
Quote by starlightcouple
funny how mr smith and mr jones of normal avenue out there, would get fined or the threat of prison or actual prison for simply building a wall or going six inches over with there garden shed. :twisted:

You quoted the guidance (as it was taken from a planning consultants website) above..........I didn't notice anything saying everybody except travellers.
Dave_Notts
Quote by starlightcouple
funny how mr smith and mr jones of normal avenue out there, would get fined or the threat of prison or actual prison for simply building a wall or going six inches over with there garden shed. :twisted:

What are you on about? Since when did building a wall without permission become an imprisonable offence? People actually go to gaol for that, do they? confused
Evidence please?
You may link to breaches of court orders and / or injunctions if you wish, which would indeed be imprisonable in certain circumstances, but I'm not sure that's what you were driving at?
N x x x ;)
Quote by neilinleeds
What are you on about? Since when did building a wall without permission become an imprisonable offence? People actually go to gaol for that, do they? confused
Evidence please?
You may link to breaches of court orders and / or injunctions if you wish, which would indeed be imprisonable in certain circumstances, but I'm not sure that's what you were driving at?
N x x x ;)

oh dear neil you seam to know nothing of planning law for say a listed building. a listed building a frend of mine actualy owns, and if he put up a brick wall without permission it would be classed as breaking CRIMINAL law.

" In addition there are separate powers for other special controls for Tree Preservation Orders, listed buildings, conservation areas, advertisements, hedgerows and planning obligations. The breaking of these regulations is often a criminal offence and is dealt with differently."
so yes neil you could well go to prison for breaking planning laws that fall under criminal law!
splitting hairs? perhaps but evidence is there for you as you asked neil.:thumbup:
and thankfully we now have dale farm illegals being removed.
funny how the peeple there seam to not want to show there faces and hide behind masks when they are throwing bricks and rocks at the police. friendly bunch they are.
what a waste of money and this should have happened nine yeers ago.
Thanks for the link Starlight. Did you actually read it? A more properly relevant paragraph as far as this discussion goes might be this one:
Government advice (Planning Policy Guidance Note 18) states that “in assessing the need for enforcement action, Local Planning Authority’s should bear in mind that it is not a criminal offence to carry out development without first obtaining any planning permission required for it”.

Breaching planning law can be a criminal offence in certain circumstances, you're right. Tell us again though Starlight, is it ordinarily an imprisonable one? You do understand that not all criminal offences are imprisonable, don't you? We'll leave further offences like breaches of court orders / injunctions / non-payment of fines etc that may be imprisonable to one side, because they aren't relevant. They're different offences. We're talking criminal breaches of planning law. Again, people routinely go to prison for that, do they?
Moving on, do those special circumstances you listed apply here as regards Dale Farm?
N x x x ;)
Quote by neilinleeds
Thanks for the link Starlight. Did you actually read it?

ermmm yes i did neil. :notes:
Quote by neilinleeds
Breaching planning law can be a criminal offence in certain circumstances, you're right.

yes i know i am neil hence the link my friend. wink
Quote by neilinleeds
Tell us again though Starlight, is it ordinarily an imprisonable one? You do understand that not all criminal offences are imprisonable, don't you?

being normally not an offense that warrants a prison sentenace was not the question though neil was it?
Quote by YOU
Since when did building a wall without permission become an imprisonable offence?

i answered building a wall in or on a listed building is a criminal offence that could warrant a prison sentenance, as anything to do with criminal law could. the fact that people in general do not go to prison is no different to saying how many people go to prison that actualy should do? not as many as most of us would like. carrying and threatening someone with a knife should, but does not. so your point again is neil?
Quote by neilinleeds
We're talking criminal breaches of planning law. Again, people routinely go to prison for that, do they?

i never said they did, YOU implied they did neil. are you possibly saying that nobody ever has gone to prison for serous breeches of planning law?? what nobody neil not ever? i will not google that as i am sure not many have but some have. blimey even little old 90 year old ladies have been sent to prison for not paying there tv licenses. criminal law see neil. :wink:
Injunction
In the most serious cases, serving an injunction is a more appropriate course of action than an Enforcement Notice. Failure to comply with an Injunction is a contempt of court for which there are serious penalties.
so whilst building a wall may not be the first reeson to jail someone they could be jailed if they break a court order so would be in contempt of court. " A judge may impose sanctions such as a fine or jailfor someone found guilty of contempt of court" :thumbup:
Quote by neilinleeds
Moving on, do those special circumstances you listed apply here as regards Dale Farm?

did i say they did neil? did YOU actually read all the link i supplied?
it mentions listed buildings but not a mention of a caravan neil.:doh:
what is rather funny well it is not actualy but a term of wording is, there were/are many peeple at dale farm with high viz jackets on with " human rights observers " written on the back. the cameras showed these peeple many times today, and then suddenly turned the cameras five feet away to see " activists / travellers " throwing large lumps of concrete and bricks at the police 20 feet away. i wonder if the police fall into the human rights observers statute book and will be making there own observations with regard to this? or are they only there to see the " travellers " get there human rights protected ?
what do you think neil? should the police be given the same protection as the peeple openly trying to injure them, and who cover up there faces to protect there indentities?
i would be interested to heer your views on those issues neil. :notes: