Democracy or Dictatorship

4 Mar 2013

Quote by starlightcouple
"One would assume that Star would look on such a man as a bit of a hero !"
Only because he was eventually elected perhaps

Hero is a strong word. Now JT could be labeled as such, but this man I know nothing of.
There have obviously been a lot of dictators over the years but are the people able to be themselves more than they would be under a democracy? If being in a democratic country means a better life for the people, then surely that is better.
Based on the fact that very few people who are able to vote, do vote, how can you say that it is a better life for people in a democracy?
Overall, I would suggest that the majority of people couldn't care a jot about how they are ruled.

4 Mar 2013

Quote by star
GnV wrote:
For me I would not like to live under this system as the Dictator and the very close ones around him have everything, and everyone else has nothing.

I didn't write that.....

4 Mar 2013

Quote by GnV
"One would assume that Star would look on such a man as a bit of a hero !"
Only because he was eventually elected perhaps

Hero is a strong word. Now JT could be labeled as such, but this man I know nothing of.
There have obviously been a lot of dictators over the years but are the people able to be themselves more than they would be under a democracy? If being in a democratic country means a better life for the people, then surely that is better.
Based on the fact that very few people who are able to vote, do vote, how can you say that it is a better life for people in a democracy?
I totally agree with you on this point.
I would of asked you why you think people don't vote? Then read your closing line.
Overall, I would suggest that the majority of people couldn't care a jot about how they are ruled.
I strongly disagree with your view.
Many people I have spoken to and I ask why they don't vote is because they don't know what party to vote for that would be the best for the country as a whole. Most say from the evidence of the past they all say one thing and do another. Many on this forum have often said it including yourself that is the general belief with in the system.
Can't be bothered and showing no interest against systems in place really isn't the same thing as couldn't care a jot about how they are ruled.
They are two completed different things.
I guess you would say it is the people that don't vote that makes a mockery of democracy rather than the system they are being asked to vote in that shows clear evidence that in fact they have made a judgement not to vote than to vote in a system that to them doesn't show true democracy and one you would defend.

4 Mar 2013

The only place in Europe if not the world that looks remotely like a democracy is Switzerland.
Everything else is a sick sham where the plebs get to pick which colour to vote for between parties who have pretty much the same policies. Not that it matters because as soon as they get into government they do what the hell they want anyway.

4 Mar 2013

Quote by flower411
"One would assume that Star would look on such a man as a bit of a hero !"
Only because he was eventually elected perhaps

Hero is a strong word. Now JT could be labeled as such, but this man I know nothing of.
There have obviously been a lot of dictators over the years but are the people able to be themselves more than they would be under a democracy? If being in a democratic country means a better life for the people, then surely that is better.
Based on the fact that very few people who are able to vote, do vote, how can you say that it is a better life for people in a democracy?
I totally agree with you on this point.
I would of asked you why you think people don't vote? Then read your closing line.
Overall, I would suggest that the majority of people couldn't care a jot about how they are ruled.
I strongly disagree with your view.
Many people I have spoken to and I ask why they don't vote is because they don't know what party to vote for that would be the best for the country as a whole. Most say from the evidence of the past they all say one thing and do another. Many on this forum have often said it including yourself that is the general belief with in the system.
Can't be bothered and showing no interest against systems in place really isn't the same thing as couldn't care a jot about how they are ruled.
They are two completed different things.
I guess you would say it is the people that don't vote that makes a mockery of democracy rather than the system they are being asked to vote in that shows clear evidence that in fact they have made a judgement not to vote than to vote in a system that to them doesn't show true democracy and one you would defend.
I would hazard a guess that people don`t vote because it will make no difference to their lives in any substantial way, not because they don`t care.
I would hazard a guess that people don't vote as the system in place at present shows more about struggling for power than a more fairer and balanced system. I think people do care.

4 Mar 2013

I wouldn't say it makes a mockery of democracy minx.
Just that it supports the view that you can't get a cigarette paper between the two types of regime.
Is a monarchical regime so much different to a dictatorship?
The UK has a constitutional monarch but there are still places in the world where the monarch rules OK.
Is that more acceptable?

Quote by minx
I think people do care.

Being the humanist I think you are, I think you would like to believe that people do care....

4 Mar 2013

Quote by GnV
GnV wrote:
For me I would not like to live under this system as the Dictator and the very close ones around him have everything, and everyone else has nothing.

I didn't write that.....
Sorry GnV.........even I get the quote thing wrong from time to time.

4 Mar 2013

Quote by GnV
Overall, I would suggest that the majority of people couldn't care a jot about how they are ruled.

So you are saying that people who live under a dictatorship are happy with that? Often dictators overthrow the previous regime via a bloody and violent coup and the people have no say in that at all. At least under a democracy the people actually get to have a say. If they either cannot be bothered or simply do not want to vote then in a democracy that is their choice. But the ones that do not vote are probably the ones that fecking moan the loudest when things go wrong.
Every single person over 18 ( with the exceptions of prisoners )have a say in how this country is run. If people choose not to have that vote then that is their decision and their decision alone.
Tell me GnV, do people in a dictatorship get that same chance? I would not want to live under a regime based around Robert Mugabe's reign. There was a man that exterminated his rivals so as to leave him with being the only person up for Presidency. Now that's a smart move. Would that be termed a democracy or a dictatorship I wonder?
On the contrary GnV..........I think people given the CHOICE do ' care a jot ' about how and by whom they are ruled.

4 Mar 2013

"Often dictators overthrow the previous regime via a bloody and violent coup "
Hummm.
Quite often a corrupt democratic one going nowhere..... :lol2:
"On the contrary GnV..........I think people given the CHOICE do ' care a jot '"
Were we not talking about people who are not given the choice...

4 Mar 2013

Quote by GnV
"Often dictators overthrow the previous regime via a bloody and violent coup "
Hummm.
Quite often a corrupt democratic one going nowhere..... :lol2:
"On the contrary GnV..........I think people given the CHOICE do ' care a jot '"
Were we not talking about people who are not given the choice...

Do you really think we are given a choice or get a choice with the current way?
I do think you could be out of touch with real issues that are going on, I don't mean the top debates.
Do you know how many people are getting degrees in various areas that can not get work because the work place want those with experience?
Yet are now straddled with high debt because they paid for their own studies.
Did you start in life with debt GNV?
When these people then sign on they are then told they can't work voluntary in the field in which they studied to gain experience to qualify for job seekers but can work in a profitable company stacking shelves instead. Is this a real choice?
You might have read about the one lady that took this case to court but it happening to many of our children.
How about that I work in voluntary sector without being paid and went to local government meeting to ask for £1000 towards a project that would benefit 300+ local people long term and increase numbers of all ages and I wasn't given a voice at the meeting.
Yet a project got funding on the evening to the tune of £15,000 or which £8000 was going to be paid in wages to the organisers of the event for a days event that only attracted 200 people the previous year.
Is that fair and having a choice?
How about small companies that get fined for paying their VAT a few days late that can cause lose of jobs within that company?
Do we really get a choice?
If so can you tell me what that choice is?
I believe it is a damned if we do and damned if we don't when we are trying to do the right thing in society it often feels like an upward struggle.
When I tried to find out why these things are happening I was basically told they are happening all the time.

4 Mar 2013

Sorry minx.
Did we jump a thread there dunno

4 Mar 2013

Quote by GnV
Sorry minx.
Did we jump a thread there

Seems she messed up the quote thing as well :grin:

4 Mar 2013

Actually no star. She quoted it exactly as I wrote it.
I just didn't use the 'quote' button for brevity.
Or was it laziness.....

4 Mar 2013

Quote by GnV
Actually no star. She quoted it exactly as I wrote it.
I just didn't use the 'quote' button for brevity.
Or was it laziness.....

Ah as p[art of the quote quoted was from me. lol

4 Mar 2013

Do you need either me or minx to issue a disclaimer/public apology or some other decree?

4 Mar 2013

Quote by GnV
Do you need either me or minx to issue a disclaimer/public apology or some other decree?

You lead me astray. smackbottom

4 Mar 2013

Quote by GnV
Do you need either me or minx to issue a disclaimer/public apology or some other decree?

Odd.

4 Mar 2013

Regardless of how we may make our choice,we do not vote for a party, we are electing an individual to represent us in M.P. is an individual member of Parliament and Not a representative of a party but of his/her constituents (all of them, not just those who voted for him/her ) The parties do not (officially) exist within Queen can invite any member of Parliament (or I believe the house of lords) to form a government... that she usually invites the leader of the largest Parliamentary group (we have on occasion had minority governments) is a matter of precedent and tradition,not a constitutional obligation (we have NO constitution) ... our democracy and it's practices are a matter of evolution and not , like many other parliaments, design; that it works at all is surprise ... that it used to work so well is a fucking miracle ... that it is failing is increasingly less surprising.
I'd opt for democracy .... I'd opt for our democracy if we can fix it,a benevolent dictatorship would be more efficient and possibly more just than our current and recent governments .... but I'll stick with the opportunity to have my say in who governs us

5 Mar 2013

Quote by Staggerlee_BB
Regardless of how we may make our choice,we do not vote for a party, we are electing an individual to represent us in M.P. is an individual member of Parliament and Not a representative of a party but of his/her constituents (all of them, not just those who voted for him/her ) The parties do not (officially) exist within Queen can invite any member of Parliament (or I believe the house of lords) to form a government... that she usually invites the leader of the largest Parliamentary group (we have on occasion had minority governments) is a matter of precedent and tradition,not a constitutional obligation (we have NO constitution) ... our democracy and it's practices are a matter of evolution and not , like many other parliaments, design; that it works at all is surprise ... that it used to work so well is a fucking miracle ... that it is failing is increasingly less surprising.
I'd opt for democracy .... I'd opt for our democracy if we can fix it,a benevolent dictatorship would be more efficient and possibly more just than our current and recent governments .... but I'll stick with the opportunity to have my say in who governs us

Thank you Stagger you have helped me untangle my mind. lol

I am in total agreement with you. I see the same thing as you and want to think of a way to stop it untangling. Which was why my previous post my idea of getting rid of the Parties names. I would like to save our system as I believe it can work it has been proven it has got better over the years as it has evolved but evolution never stops and since we have had the introduction of modern technology which with its flaws has also been a tool to help educate us all. I think what media seems to emit is the importance of the party. It shows in house party squabbles, towing the party line, I don't always think that was it intent but it is what people view. I think this has always happened as I am on committees and if you see behind the scene often heated argue as we are all passionate but then all have a drink at the bar afterwards. I don't think politics is much different. I believe is it causing a possibly misguided belief it is divide and rule as that is how it is being viewed. I don't think we can blame anyone what we should be doing is finding a way to work together to find a solution. My idea was to get rid of the use of Parties being a label. Maybe in the past it wasn't seen as being important within politics but I think it seems to be the importance of what the people see.
Do we really need the labels of parties in today society?
With modern day technology and people being far more educated than in previous generations. Could taking away the party names and making the MP's the focus take the system back to its original intent of how it was set up?

5 Mar 2013

no matter what you choose it will never be in your favor.
the only person in this life that needs to be happy is you.
and if you achieve that. nothing else matters.

5 Mar 2013

Quote by flower411
Regardless of how we may make our choice,we do not vote for a party, we are electing an individual to represent us in M.P. is an individual member of Parliament and Not a representative of a party but of his/her constituents (all of them, not just those who voted for him/her ) The parties do not (officially) exist within Queen can invite any member of Parliament (or I believe the house of lords) to form a government... that she usually invites the leader of the largest Parliamentary group (we have on occasion had minority governments) is a matter of precedent and tradition,not a constitutional obligation (we have NO constitution) ... our democracy and it's practices are a matter of evolution and not , like many other parliaments, design; that it works at all is surprise ... that it used to work so well is a fucking miracle ... that it is failing is increasingly less surprising.
I'd opt for democracy .... I'd opt for our democracy if we can fix it,a benevolent dictatorship would be more efficient and possibly more just than our current and recent governments .... but I'll stick with the opportunity to have my say in who governs us

If only that statement were true ! We all know that it is not true and I assume that`s part of the reason you say the system is failing.
I can only speak from experience but coming from a very politically oriented family I would say that people would vote for anybody who was wearing the right colour at the time.
At 84 my mother has been a staunch party supporter all her life and is still a very active fundraiser. At times she has disliked the chosen candidate intensly but has supported them all the way because they are in the correct party. In my experience a large majority of the people who vote DO in fact vote a particular party and not for the individual.
I`d also take issue with you saying that the elected members then represent all of thier constituents. Of course they SHOULD but we all no for a fact that they don`t.
Does the child then get raised within the same confinement political mindset as the parent?
In the same way religion and culture can do?
The reason I ask is my upbringing was very different in that they were no clear definitions within these guidelines so we were pretty much able to question and ask about anything and become out of it what we choice to be.

5 Mar 2013

Quote by flower
Of course they SHOULD but we all no for a fact that they don`t.

True!
They are all self serving, thieving morons with no interests in mind but their own.
Nigel Farage excepted, of course wink

oh, and Neil Hamilton

8 Mar 2013

We put dictators where needed to help out but usually goes tits up ..
Id take democracy every time myself .. even if its not ever really one .. but hey .. if you work in public service as our incompetent politicians do .. if you pay peanuts you only get monkeys ... no good career minded person would take the PMs role for his salary lol
Crooks and fibbers the lot of em
The monkeys may do a better job too .. bring back Maggie .. even mental she would sort us out and invade France while doing so.

8 Mar 2013

Quote by GnV
Of course they SHOULD but we all no for a fact that they don`t.

True!
They are all self serving, thieving morons with no interests in mind but their own.
Nigel Farage excepted, of course wink

oh, and Neil Hamilton
So correct GnV..........They are outspoken and want to stop the immigrants coming here. :thumbup::rascal:

10 Mar 2013

Quote by flower411
Regardless of how we may make our choice,we do not vote for a party, we are electing an individual to represent us in M.P. is an individual member of Parliament and Not a representative of a party but of his/her constituents (all of them, not just those who voted for him/her ) The parties do not (officially) exist within Queen can invite any member of Parliament (or I believe the house of lords) to form a government... that she usually invites the leader of the largest Parliamentary group (we have on occasion had minority governments) is a matter of precedent and tradition,not a constitutional obligation (we have NO constitution) ... our democracy and it's practices are a matter of evolution and not , like many other parliaments, design; that it works at all is surprise ... that it used to work so well is a fucking miracle ... that it is failing is increasingly less surprising.
I'd opt for democracy .... I'd opt for our democracy if we can fix it,a benevolent dictatorship would be more efficient and possibly more just than our current and recent governments .... but I'll stick with the opportunity to have my say in who governs us

If only that statement were true ! We all know that it is not true and I assume that`s part of the reason you say the system is failing.
I can only speak from experience but coming from a very politically oriented family I would say that people would vote for anybody who was wearing the right colour at the time.
At 84 my mother has been a staunch party supporter all her life and is still a very active fundraiser. At times she has disliked the chosen candidate intensly but has supported them all the way because they are in the correct party. In my experience a large majority of the people who vote DO in fact vote a particular party and not for the individual.
I`d also take issue with you saying that the elected members then represent all of thier constituents. Of course they SHOULD but we all no for a fact that they don`t.
Does the child then get raised within the same confinement political mindset as the parent?
In the same way religion and culture can do?
The reason I ask is my upbringing was very different in that they were no clear definitions within these guidelines so we were pretty much able to question and ask about anything and become out of it what we choice to be.
To be honest minx, I`m not entirely sure whether you are asking a question or making an accusation ! My Mum grew up in a family with staunch political views with my grandfather being a council chairman in the 1930`s and she has taken the opposite course supporting a party of a different hue .
My views and beliefs are my own and both of my parents encouraged free thought ...my dad was perfectly able to accept beliefs that did not agree with his but my mum finds it hard to deal with.
It was a genuine question not an accusation.
Myself not being bought up in a family with staunch views in the three main areas that I believe can have a big impact on the way we think, which are religion, culture and politics. I was interested as I believe when both parents have stanch beliefs it must be hard for the children within those to be able to think differently. This might be why for example your Mum finds it hard and your Dad is more relaxed about it.

10 Mar 2013

My family growing up was staunch labour and some went to church too. I decided who I'd vote for and that it's a fairy tale and causes wars too does religion. I watched a mate be brought up by two union member bible maniac parents . When he hit 16 he went out of control and still is if out with us lads. It can't be healthy forcing either on a child. Inform of all and let then work it out by themselves I'm trying here.
Hope I'm right with this one lol
J

10 Mar 2013

Quote by VoyeurJ
My family growing up was staunch labour and some went to church too. I decided who I'd vote for and that it's a fairy tale and causes wars too does religion. I watched a mate be brought up by two union member bible maniac parents . When he hit 16 he went out of control and still is if out with us lads. It can't be healthy forcing either on a child. Inform of all and let then work it out by themselves I'm trying here.
Hope I'm right with this one lol
J

Yes you are right. Parents with strong views of course rubs off on their kids be it political or religious.

10 Mar 2013

"Parents with strong views of course rubs off on their kids be it political or religious."
and regrettably, sport - like beating the crap out of opponents supporters :grin:

10 Mar 2013

Quote by GnV
"Parents with strong views of course rubs off on their kids be it political or religious."
and regrettably, sport - like beating the crap out of opponents supporters :grin:

Nothing wrong in that if they are Spurs supporters.

10 Mar 2013

Quote by starlightcouple
"Parents with strong views of course rubs off on their kids be it political or religious."
and regrettably, sport - like beating the crap out of opponents supporters :grin:

Nothing wrong in that if they are Spurs supporters.
Your right of course, missed the footie today, how did Tottenham get on agains pool ? giggles