Developments Over UK Tax Avoidance

7 Dec 2010

Mmmmm looks like the Government are starting to take note of the Top Shop and Vodafone protests ;

Before someone mentions the 'Guardian' alleged tax avoidance,if true i don't agree with that either,but then again the 'Daily Mail' is run by a French tax avoider.

A little more on various forms of protest at Top Shop;
Superglued in the window display

Amazing what you can do with some flyers and a packet of Minstrels

7 Dec 2010

And? What's to discuss then?

7 Dec 2010

Quote by medway_garage
Before someone mentions the 'Guardian' alleged tax avoidance,if true i don't agree with that either,but then again the 'Daily Mail' is run by a French tax avoider.

How can someone be a "French Tax avoider" when there is a double taxation treaty between the UK and France?

7 Dec 2010

Quote by Freckledbird
And? What's to discuss then?

The power of super glue and how nice minstrels are lol

Dave_Notts

7 Dec 2010

Quote by Dave__Notts
And? What's to discuss then?

The power of super glue and how nice minstrels are lol

Dave_Notts
Oooooo superglue isn't so super - sweat makes it come unstuck.
Minstrels are very yummy, but not if they've been in the fridge.

7 Dec 2010

Ahhhhhhhhh the unwritten rules. I don't have a problem with folk researching topics and providing a range of links without a traditional rant. Its interesting for those who treat this forum as a source of learning rather than a soap box.
Thanks Medway---keep it up.

7 Dec 2010

Quote by GnV
Before someone mentions the 'Guardian' alleged tax avoidance,if true i don't agree with that either,but then again the 'Daily Mail' is run by a French tax avoider.

How can someone be a "French Tax avoider" when there is a double taxation treaty between the UK and France?
Dunno GnV, but by several accounts some one very senior at the Daily Mail is managing it (as the saying goes 'allegedly' lol

) as Medway's also spotted

7 Dec 2010

Properly managed, France's tax regime is no better or worse than that of the UK. Managed badly, France is by no means a tax haven as one is taxed on their world wide wealth with very high percentage rates and some things that escape tax lawfully in the UK are taxed here - hence my surprise. The double taxation treaty ensures that, on a like for like basis, you are not taxed twice for the same taxable benefit.
Some people confuse the Principality of Monaco with France. Monaco is a tax haven but it's only link with France is defence, its national defence being the responsibility of France.
On that basis, I could not imagine someone claiming France as a tax shelter - far from it.

7 Dec 2010

I am interested in this daily mail story. Does anybody have the skill to search for and find a few links and post em on here?

7 Dec 2010

Quote by Ben_welshminx
I am interested in this daily mail story. Does anybody have the skill to search for and find a few links and post em on here?

I'll have a proper look tomorrow and see what i can dig up,here's some links that might be of interest.
QUOTE;Daily Mail owner Jonathan Harmsworth cares enough about his country to be known as 4th Viscount Rothermere, but not enough that he won’t give up the non-domiciled status that means he can pay tax in France but not the UK. It is their newspapers who lead the mob chanting about benefit scroungers and the overpaid public OF QUOTE
About half way down the page

I see,so he takes the title,lives here,but doesn't pay any tax here?? How is that possible? Does he really pay tax in France?
QUOTE;Lord Rothermere is registered as "non-domiciled" in Britain. This status was inherited from his father, who spent most of his life as a resident of France. This status allows Rothermere to pay tax in OF QUOTE

I found a cache copy of a Private Eye article regarding Johnny's non-dom tax arrangement

Hilariously the 'Daily Mail',of all people attack Cadbury for tax avoidance;

7 Dec 2010

Quote by HnS
Before someone mentions the 'Guardian' alleged tax avoidance,if true i don't agree with that either,but then again the 'Daily Mail' is run by a French tax avoider.

How can someone be a "French Tax avoider" when there is a double taxation treaty between the UK and France?
Dunno GnV, but by several accounts some one very senior at the Daily Mail is managing it (as the saying goes 'allegedly' lol

) as Medway's also spotted
Ha ha ha ha? No, really? Thanks Medway, I've missed that so far. The irony really is quite delicious, isn't it? ;) They tried to move their 'seat of operations and control' to the Netherlands for tax purposes as far back as 1988 by all accounts but were refused by the Treasury, so took their case to the European Court of Justice and were rebuffed. That probably goes some way towards explaining their ongoing constant bitching and moaning about European law in its various guises ever since? :lol:
Having said that, never let it be said that the Mail is incapable of a . And no doubt, an editor near you is desperately trying to reconcile the aspirin causes cancer / may not cause cancer after all / is miracle wonder drug thing as we speak? :P They are truly almost beyond parody? ;)
Going back to the OP, I'm loving the Uncut protest at Top Shop Medway! Nicely photogenic bit of direct action there. Unfortunately I don't shop at Arcadia stores, so I can't really add anything to the whole 'Hit Phil Green where it hurts' type thing. I'm not sure he really gives a flying one though, or the people in government. They know full well that the country will swallow the poor picking up the tab for the finance sector's excesses in the long run, as always, cos G*d forbid we do anything to upset the apple cart for the super-wealthy. I mean, they might just bugger off elsewhere if we did that and then where will we be? rolleyes

N x x x ;)

7 Dec 2010

Purely in the interests of balance, here's a link to the Guardian Media Group's alledged tax avoidance. Nothing from Polly Toynbee on the matter though wink

8 Dec 2010

Quote by neilinleeds
Having said that, never let it be said that the Mail is incapable of a fine bit of satire when it really, really tries. And no doubt, an editor near you is desperately trying to reconcile the aspirin causes cancer / may not cause cancer after all / is miracle wonder drug thing as we speak? :P They are truly almost beyond parody? ;)

Thanks for the link, i haven't lol

so much in ages !

8 Dec 2010

Great thread. :happy:

8 Dec 2010

I think that anger at alleged tax avoidance stems from jealousy more than anything. There is not a person on this planet that would not try to minimise what they pay in tax. Most of us on PAYE have no hope whilst the super rich can afford to play the game and take advantage of legal loopholes.
I just wish i was one of them and I envy their ability to do this and aspire to have such wealth as to be able to do it - just a dream for me I guess though.

8 Dec 2010

I do tax avoidance every week, I'm waiting for the soap dodgers to come and demonstrate outside my house.

9 Dec 2010

Too Hot, the oft repeated charge that any and all criticism of the haves by the have nots is motivated by base emotions like petty jealousy really is a piss poor diversionary tactic.
It seems more likely to me that it's based on a belief that it cannot possibly be right that a company that has just returned a 300 million pound profit to its shareholders has still somehow managed to be eligible for a credit from the public purse every single one of us pay into amounting to 800 thousand pounds ( allegedly? ). This is the very same agency that is currently chasing tax-payers for sums in 3 or 4 figures, under threat of court action, who have apparently underpaid their dues. dunno

It's about fairness. The very same fairness our govt are banging on about in an all in it together kinda way. Obviously some of us are more all in it together than others?
N x x x ;)

9 Dec 2010

I agree with Neil.
We are all in it together, some up to their necks whilst others paddle.
And that aint right.
Oooh that sounds like a song.

12 Dec 2010

Just a quick heads up, for the next day of action on Saturday 18th Dec;

QUOTE;Saturday December 18th is Pay Day
Over the past few months, protesters have staged sit ins, performance interventions, pickets, flash mobs, superglue stick-ons and intrepid one-woman protests against tax dodgers across the country.
Saturday December 18th is Pay Day, our next day of mass action. One week before Christmas, thousands of people across the country will be hitting the high streets to make sure tax dodgers pay.
Once again we will be targeting the multi-national and the multi-billionaire, Vodafone and Sir Philip Green. Both have been shaken up by the protests so far, but on December 18th they will face protests on a scale they could not have imagined just a few months ago. Vodafone and Arcadia will be targeted on every major high street in the UK. It’s up to you to make it happen.
Tell all your friends, family and colleagues. Come up with creative protest ideas. Start planning. Use our action centre to organise or join an action near you.
If you’re angry that the government is cutting services for the poorest and most vulnerable whilst letting the rich avoid billions in tax, then please join us, even if you have never been on a protest before.
The government is determined to plough ahead with these savage, unnecessary, ideological cuts. But a growing protest movement is starting to stage the fight back. Be a part of it.
See you on high OF QUOTE

13 Dec 2010

Quote by medway_garage
Just a quick heads up, for the next day of action on Saturday 18th Dec;

QUOTE;Saturday December 18th is Pay Day
Over the past few months, protesters have staged sit ins, performance interventions, pickets, flash mobs, superglue stick-ons and intrepid one-woman protests against tax dodgers across the country.
Saturday December 18th is Pay Day, our next day of mass action. One week before Christmas, thousands of people across the country will be hitting the high streets to make sure tax dodgers pay.
Once again we will be targeting the multi-national and the multi-billionaire, Vodafone and Sir Philip Green. Both have been shaken up by the protests so far, but on December 18th they will face protests on a scale they could not have imagined just a few months ago. Vodafone and Arcadia will be targeted on every major high street in the UK. It's up to you to make it happen.
Tell all your friends, family and colleagues. Come up with creative protest ideas. Start planning. Use our action centre to organise or join an action near you.
If you're angry that the government is cutting services for the poorest and most vulnerable whilst letting the rich avoid billions in tax, then please join us, even if you have never been on a protest before.
The government is determined to plough ahead with these savage, unnecessary, ideological cuts. But a growing protest movement is starting to stage the fight back. Be a part of it.
See you on high OF QUOTE

Lets hope that such actions do not lead to game-fully employed people loosing there jobs, in the long term, or being harassed, terrified or worse still, while trying to go about there daily, law-full business

13 Dec 2010

mmmm, seems it's not just the previously mentioned 'suspects' that are seeking to avoid UK Tax either.
Spotted in one of the heavyweight papers over the weekend, "Ownership of the iconic scallop sign which appears on thousands of Shell petrol station forecourts has migrated to a Swiss tax haven."
It seems that Legal ownership of the trademarks now belongs to a subsidiary set up in the low-tax canton of Zug, which is entitled to charge royalties for their use to other Shell companies. The canton hosts about 18,000 companies, mostly foreign entities set up to take advantage of corporate tax rates as low as 8%.
It would seem that Shell are not alone, as Diageo the owners of many famous trademarks such as Johnnie Walker whisky & J & B Rare, transfered 'ownership' to Diageo Brands BV in Amsterdam using a technique known in tax circles as "outward domestication". By this means, Johnnie Walker became "Dutch". Via various other corporate changes, J&B finally ended up alongside other whisky brands, as part of Diageo Brands BV.
Unusual, it appears not.
The title to more than 40 GlaxoSmithKline trademarks went to a factory in Puerto Rico, including the trademark for the top-selling diabetes drug Avandia. In 2007, the Puerto Rico trademarks, including Avandia, were shifted on to the firm's Irish operation in Cork. The trademark for the newly launched breast cancer drug Tykerb was assigned to Ireland, another low-tax regime, in 2005, followed there by the firm's Sensodyne toothpaste brand in January 2008.
Also, it seems that when HM Customs & Revenue (HMRC) changed some rules back in 2004 they've admitted that there have been some 14,000 tax avoidance schemes since then, and via a Parlimentary answer to Austin Mitchel MP, no fewer than 90 promoters are under investigation for failing to disclose schemes.
Based on 2005 figures from the HMRC, the official estimated gap between the £40bn corporation tax actually collected and "the theoretical tax liability if all taxpayers complied with the letter and the spirit of the law" was somewhere between and not collected.
In 2008, the Commons Public Accounts Committee was told by HMRC that there was of "potential corporation tax at risk", according to its initial review of 2006-7 company tax returns. "It is currently using these estimates to develop a measure of the tax gap."
HMRC has also advised, in recent years, that it recovers between £100m and £250m a year in tax lost through what it considers incorrect transfer pricing by large businesses. (In 2006/07 the figure rose to £473m after the settlement of a major investigation into Barclays Bank's payment protection insurance business, whose policies were sold in the UK but booked in Dublin.)
If all the above is true, which it seems to be given the main source being HMRC and Parliamentary committee, there's certainly some food for thought here given the DEfence Spending Review, Local Government Funding cuts, and other spending cuts announced in the last few months by the Coalitition.

21 Dec 2010

Just got an email from 38 Degrees, looks like we'll be seeing Mr Osborne's tax avoidance in the newspapers on the 4th Jan, 38 Degrees have bought ad's in lots of national newspapers, with posters on bus shelters and billboards coming to constituencies of cabinet ministers during local elections lol

Nice one !
QUOTE;We've just bought the artful dodger tax ads. On 4 January (the day VAT goes up) our adverts will be splashed across the pages of the Daily Telegraph, the Daily Mail, the Independent, the i, the Guardian and The Times.
It's brilliant what we can do when we work together. Thousands of us voted to choose tax dodging as a priority campaign. Then hundreds of us helped come up with the idea of the "artful dodger" ad. And then thousands of us donated whatever we could afford to get the ads in the papers. Between us, we raised over £20,000 in one week!
We're starting to get tax dodging on the public's radar. More and more people are starting to talk about it - this week even the Daily Mail ran a story revealing Boots the chemist was dodging tax. Thanks to our ads, tax dodging will be part of the story on the day VAT goes up.
George Osborne would rather not talk about tax dodging. Slowly but surely, we're making it impossible for him to keep ducking the issue.
In the New Year, we will need to get more of our tax dodger adverts up on bus stops and billboards around the country - particularly in areas where the politicians would rather voters didn't see them.
Imagine the effect when tax dodger adverts start appearing in the constituencies of Cabinet Ministers! Or in areas where the political parties are fighting hard to win votes in the Scottish, Welsh and local elections next May. We'll need to raise at least another £10,000 in the New Year to get the ads up on bus stops and billboards.
It's been a great year for 38 Degrees - together we are proving that people power can work. By pooling our efforts, we've held politicians and big business to account.
We have had some real successes - pushing tax dodging up the agenda, getting the new government to pledge a ban on secret lobbying by big business, sounding the alarm about the sell-off of our forests, saving BBC 6 music, stopping money being wasted on new nuclear weapons, and pushing Vince Cable to stand up to Rupert Murdoch. These are just a few of the things we've done together!
But it's also been a year with its disappointments and its worries. We've seen yet more politicians break yet more promises. We've seen really tough news on the economy, with many of us worried about our jobs, our public services, the future of our children and of the communities we live in. We've seen a worrying lack of progress on protecting the environment. And Rupert Murdoch still seems determined to try to grab more power! There's definitely a lot more to do together in 2011.
Thanks for being part of everything we've done together in 2010. We hope you have a great Christmas holiday and are looking forward to working together even more in 2011.
Thanks for everything you do,
David, Hannah, Johnny, Charlotte and the 38 Degrees team
Notes:
END OF QUOTE

20 Dec 2011

Finally those in the 'Westminster bubble' have woken up and smelt the coffee
coffee

A committee of MPs has criticised "cosy" deals between HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC) and big businesses.
The MPs singled out Dave Hartnett, permanent secretary for tax, for failing to handle tax negotiations with some big companies properly.
The Public Accounts Committee said large firms got favourable treatment and there was a lack of public accountability over how deals are done.
The committee of MPs said they believed there was £25bn of outstanding tax potentially owed by big companies, and was especially critical of Dave Hartnett's role as HMRC's chief tax collector. "The absence of full transparency about his relations with companies risks the perception that he acted improperly or exercised poor judgement", the MPs said.
The report by the committee contains some of the most severe criticism of a civil servant yet published.
The MPs accuse Dave Hartnett of mishandling tax negotiations with some big companies such as Goldman Sachs, letting it off millions of pounds in interest on its tax bill.
He had also, the MPs said, tried to stonewall their questions when they quizzed him at committee hearings during October and November this year.
The MPs say he:
* authorised a large tax settlement whose negotiation he had been involved in, breaching HMRC's internal rules had given "imprecise, inconsistent and potentially misleading answers" to MPs
* had relationships with big companies that were "too cosy", resulting in the appearance they received "preferential treatment"
* had used a bogus excuse of observing taxpayer confidentiality to avoid explaining the tax deals he had been involved in.
The MPs said the scale of potential tax losses due to apparently cosy deals with Goldman Sachs and Vodafone had only been brought to their attention by an HMRC "whistle-blower" and the publication Private Eye.
Margaret Hodge MP, chair of the Public Accounts Committee, told the BBC that she thought the relationship between big corporations and HMRC was like "David and Goliath". "Big companies have very expensive advisers, consultants and lawyers. HMRC, on their own admittance, has very few people who have deep knowledge of tax affairs"
Meanwhile, the tax campaign group UK Uncut is taking HMRC to the High Court on Thursday, seeking a judicial review to try to get it to reclaim millions of pounds in tax from Goldman Sachs.
In early December Mr Hartnett announced he would be retiring in the summer of 2012, though from January he'll work for a new HMRC chief executive - Lin Homer (currently permanent secretary at the Department for Transport).
Last month, Mr Hartnett admitted to a committee of MPs that mistakes had been made in a tax deal negotiated by HMRC with Goldman Sachs. And in September last year, he apologised to 1.4 million people who were receiving letters revealing an underpayment of tax. This came hours after a refusal to apologise brought severe criticism.
Now back to the £25bn of outstanding tax, are we ever likely to see any of it ?

20 Dec 2011

Quote by HnS
Finally those in the 'Westminster bubble' have woken up and smelt the coffee

A committee of MPs has criticised "cosy" deals between HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC) and big businesses.
The MPs singled out Dave Hartnett, permanent secretary for tax, for failing to handle tax negotiations with some big companies properly.
The Public Accounts Committee said large firms got favourable treatment and there was a lack of public accountability over how deals are done.
The committee of MPs said they believed there was £25bn of outstanding tax potentially owed by big companies, and was especially critical of Dave Hartnett's role as HMRC's chief tax collector. "The absence of full transparency about his relations with companies risks the perception that he acted improperly or exercised poor judgement", the MPs said.
The report by the committee contains some of the most severe criticism of a civil servant yet published.
The MPs accuse Dave Hartnett of mishandling tax negotiations with some big companies such as Goldman Sachs, letting it off millions of pounds in interest on its tax bill.
He had also, the MPs said, tried to stonewall their questions when they quizzed him at committee hearings during October and November this year.
The MPs say he:
* authorised a large tax settlement whose negotiation he had been involved in, breaching HMRC's internal rules had given "imprecise, inconsistent and potentially misleading answers" to MPs
* had relationships with big companies that were "too cosy", resulting in the appearance they received "preferential treatment"
* had used a bogus excuse of observing taxpayer confidentiality to avoid explaining the tax deals he had been involved in.
The MPs said the scale of potential tax losses due to apparently cosy deals with Goldman Sachs and Vodafone had only been brought to their attention by an HMRC "whistle-blower" and the publication Private Eye.
Margaret Hodge MP, chair of the Public Accounts Committee, told the BBC that she thought the relationship between big corporations and HMRC was like "David and Goliath". "Big companies have very expensive advisers, consultants and lawyers. HMRC, on their own admittance, has very few people who have deep knowledge of tax affairs"
Meanwhile, the tax campaign group UK Uncut is taking HMRC to the High Court on Thursday, seeking a judicial review to try to get it to reclaim millions of pounds in tax from Goldman Sachs.
In early December Mr Hartnett announced he would be retiring in the summer of 2012, though from January he'll work for a new HMRC chief executive - Lin Homer (currently permanent secretary at the Department for Transport).
Last month, Mr Hartnett admitted to a committee of MPs that mistakes had been made in a tax deal negotiated by HMRC with Goldman Sachs. And in September last year, he apologised to 1.4 million people who were receiving letters revealing an underpayment of tax. This came hours after a refusal to apologise brought severe criticism.
Now back to the £25bn of outstanding tax, are we ever likely to see any of it ?

The committee of MPs said they believed there was £25bn of outstanding tax potentiallyowed by big companies. Of course HMRC have issued a rebuttal of that figure.

20 Dec 2011

Quote by Max777
The committee of MPs said they believed there was £25bn of outstanding tax potentially owed by big companies. Of course HMRC have issued a rebuttal of that figure.

Max,
Well you'd excpect HMRC to rebut the figure, their still smarting from parliamentary criticsm, however whilst they deny £25bn of outstanding tax, they've so far refused to say how much they believe is outstanding.

20 Dec 2011

Quote by HnS
The committee of MPs said they believed there was £25bn of outstanding tax potentially owed by big companies. Of course HMRC have issued a rebuttal of that figure.

Max,
Well you'd excpect HMRC to rebut the figure, their still smarting from parliamentary criticsm, however whilst they deny £25bn of outstanding tax, they've so far refused to say how much they believe is outstanding.
Do you know how the HMRC operate in these cases? They steam in, issue assessments for everything and anything and then add penalties and interest and then start negotiations from a very big figure.
In a case that I have personal knowledge of, HMRC issued and interest for over £1 million. The eventual settlement was for £100K. HMRC were therefore 90% wrong and this wasn't some global corporation with complex tax affairs but a small local group of companies owned by one guy.
So maybe the figure is nearer £2.5 billion? Potentially is the crucial word in that article.
The MPs are relying upon a "whistle-blower" within HMRC and articles in Private Eye. Surely then, the whistle-blower can point the MPs in the direction of the companies allegedly involved and the true figure evaluated?

20 Dec 2011

It was always and ever thus. A law change has been needed for a very long time.

20 Dec 2011

Quote by Max777
The committee of MPs said they believed there was £25bn of outstanding tax potentially owed by big companies. Of course HMRC have issued a rebuttal of that figure.

Max,
Well you'd excpect HMRC to rebut the figure, their still smarting from parliamentary criticsm, however whilst they deny £25bn of outstanding tax, they've so far refused to say how much they believe is outstanding.
Do you know how the HMRC operate in these cases? They steam in, issue assessments for everything and anything and then add penalties and interest and then start negotiations from a very big figure.
In a case that I have personal knowledge of, HMRC issued and interest for over £1 million. The eventual settlement was for £100K. HMRC were therefore 90% wrong and this wasn't some global corporation with complex tax affairs but a small local group of companies owned by one guy.
So maybe the figure is nearer £2.5 billion? Potentially is the crucial word in that article.
The MPs are relying upon a "whistle-blower" within HMRC and articles in Private Eye. Surely then, the whistle-blower can point the MPs in the direction of the companies allegedly involved and the true figure evaluated?
Add to that the complexities of corporate taxation... it's not exactly like Fred Bloggs' paying his PAYE; it's far more complex.
And I can concur with what Max has said from my direct experience too. They punt a figure plucked out of plain air and expect it to be negotiated downwards offering all sorts of sticks and carrots in the process... you know, a bit like the good guy bad guy routines in the American Police series rolleyes

Often, the figure is totally laughable which is why corporate lawyers and big firm accountants make so much money. Many of their tax advisers are ex HMRC employees anyway.

21 Dec 2011

someones gotta be havin a laff
i just had a tax investigation which started with a bill for 150k and 14 days to pay
one year later and 2 full time hmrc investigators at the tax payers expence
i got a rebate for 27k because of a change in the law they was not aware of
i will add i was threatened with probably about everything including arrest for tax evation
infact not only was i clean all my taxes paid up to date it turns out i was paying tax for things that was tax deductable for the last 5 years
happy xmas me flipa

21 Dec 2011

Congratulations Rob, nice Xmas present!
So that's another potential £150K that's actually cost them £27K....I have no doubt that the figure of £25 billion is pie in the sky but doubtless we will see it oft quoted by all and sundry now.