Drugs - can we have a grown up debate?

15 Oct 2012

Quote by neilinleeds
The drugs trade is killing British Soldiers in Afghanistan, it is costing a fortune to British taxpayers, it is putting our Naval personnel around the world in danger, it is the cause of much of the petty crime (petty to those in authority not to victims) around the Country, responsible adult, no selfish attitude is my opinion.

Ummmmm, I think I did touch on this right back on page 1 with my first post on this very thread Jed, when I said "financing gangsters and putting guns on the street in this country, even more guns on the streets in the countries that produce them" and again on page 3 when I said "The ongoing damage the so-called drugs war in countries like Mexico is doing is also another reason why these treaties need looking at again". I'd argue prohibition is the cause of violence of this sort at home and abroad, not the drugs themselves,
So you believe that if we legalise drugs in the UK the Taliban will close up shop and stop producing them and our troops will not have to go there knowing that we will be producing them in the UK instead of buying off them ? The drug barons of South America will become normal farmers, the Chinese drug lords will find new employment that is not against the law ? after all we wouldn't need to import drugs if the government backed them we could just ask some of our entrepeneurs to open up factories and farms here in Britain, Virgin Cocain, Bernard Mathews Linconshire Weed, La Senza Acid House.
which has been my point throughout the thread. If the manufacture and sale of drugs were legal you'd remove it from the hands of criminal enterprises who use such violence to further their aim and protect their interests, wouldn't you?

To me your just another addict that fuels the flames of the problem.

Perhaps you missed one of the closing lines of the latest post where I said "as a responsible adult I'm not daft enough any more to risk being nicked with Class As".
Yes you wrote "anymore" meaning "used to" and the reason you don't "fear of being caught" not any moral reason.
I suppose I should appreciate your forthrightness there, except that I can't possibly be an 'addict' ( a term which would be meaningless as far as the use of psychedelics referred to above goes anyway, psychedelics having no addictive potential ) because I don't use illegal drugs Jed, partly cos of the risk to myself as far as arrest goes, and partly cos I cannot in good conscience party away on Cocaine ( a shitty drug anyways ) or whatever knowing the damage done to other human beings in the countries that produce it just so I can 'enjoy' the privelege. Again though, this would not be an issue if the trade were legal. Consequence of prohibition again.

but attempting to justify breaking the law with morals is not going to work with me because morals are also about not breaking the law.

Ah, now that's a more interesting question. Is that always the case? If the law is unjust, do not citizens of good conscience have a duty to see that it is repealed, sometimes even by breaking the law to highlight its absurdity? I could cite Rosa Parks here perhaps. I'm not going to suggest the right to take drugs is a civil rights issue of that kind so noone need take me to task for doing so, but things are not always as black and white as you've made out, are they?
Who says the laws regarding drug abuse are unjust, I think they are very just, and as a responsible adult I abide by the laws of the Nation as should you who also claims to be a responsible adult, if they are in your opinion unjust there are ways of getting the law changed, lobbying, petitions, the ballot box etc. If you are right and the laws are unjust you will win your campaign, if I am right and they are just you will lose your campaign.

15 Oct 2012

So you believe that if we legalise drugs in the UK the Taliban will close up shop and stop producing them and our troops will not have to go there knowing that we will be producing them in the UK instead of buying off them ? The drug barons of South America will become normal farmers, the Chinese drug lords will find new employment that is not against the law ? after all we wouldn't need to import drugs if the government backed them we could just ask some of our entrepeneurs to open up factories and farms here in Britain, Virgin Cocain, Bernard Mathews Linconshire Weed, La Senza Acid House.

You miss the point here I think Jed. Coca leaves and opium poppies have little intrinsic value. Ask the dirt poor susbsistence farmers forced to grow it, either by threat of violence or by circumstance, these crops being marginally more profitable than other subsistence crops they could be growing. The real value is added by middle tier producers who process the raw material into cocaine and heroin, yes? The value added here derives entirely from what a kilo of either will sell for on the streets of the U.S. and Europe. That price is kept artificially high by prohibition in terms of the risks to black marketeers moving it who want a substantial return on their investment to offset those risks, and in terms of what the market will bear to pay for a product that's always in demand. We know already Heroin addicts will pay just about anything for the stuff. Legalise it, including production of it and you change the dynamic completely, the economics of prohibition go right out the window. This has to be done globally, locally will not work but once the trade is legalised what makes coca leaves and opium poppies different to any other cash crop bought and sold on the open market? Wheres the incentive for the murderous criminal operations who run the trade once you take away their profit margin?
We've not even started on what happens when other countries pull the rug from under the Afghanistans and South / Central Americas of this world by starting up production themselves. It's my understanding pharmaceutical heroin ( diamorphine ) for medicinal use by the NHS is produced from poppies grown legally, mostly in this country? There was no real problem with magic mushrooms being sold openly before the ban, most were U.K. produced grown on small-ish scale in terrariums. Cannabis in the U.K. is almost entirely home grown skunk these days, being much lower risk to dealers than they'd otherwise face trying to import the stuff. Legalise weed altogether I think you'd find quite a lot of users would produce the stuff themselves investing in a couple hundred quids worth of hydroponics. Many do already, no criminal gangs involved whatsoever. Most of your newer synthetics are coming out of Chinese chemical factories where production of them is legal. Where does that leave your argument now?
This is all thought experiment Jed, I'm not seriously suggesting we tear up all the laws and jump feet first into some kind of free for all. I'm genuinely interested in other views as to what might happen if we did that though. The drugs trade is not going to go away, no matter what we do. We know what the harms of prohibition are, you've touched on some yourself. If we cannot rid ourselves globally of these associated harms absolutely then the next best thing is harm reduction, isn't it. If it can be demonstrated that legalisation results in fewer harms than prohibition then that's a win, surely. You brought up morals. Which is the more moral course there?

15 Oct 2012

Quote by neilinleeds
Ah, now that's a more interesting question. Is that always the case? If the law is unjust, do not citizens of good conscience have a duty to see that it is repealed, sometimes even by breaking the law to highlight its absurdity? I could cite Rosa Parks here perhaps. I'm not going to suggest the right to take drugs is a civil rights issue of that kind so noone need take me to task for doing so, but things are not always as black and white as you've made out, are they?

This is a very interesting question, but is totally off-topic. Perhaps we should start a new thread on morals and the law... I have a lot of thoughts on this, but am about to go to bed, so will write them another time! :-)

15 Oct 2012

Quote by neilinleeds
So you believe that if we legalise drugs in the UK the Taliban will close up shop and stop producing them and our troops will not have to go there knowing that we will be producing them in the UK instead of buying off them ? The drug barons of South America will become normal farmers, the Chinese drug lords will find new employment that is not against the law ? after all we wouldn't need to import drugs if the government backed them we could just ask some of our entrepeneurs to open up factories and farms here in Britain, Virgin Cocain, Bernard Mathews Linconshire Weed, La Senza Acid House.

You miss the point here I think Jed. Coca leaves and opium poppies have little intrinsic value. Ask the dirt poor susbsistence farmers forced to grow it, either by threat of violence or by circumstance, these crops being marginally more profitable than other subsistence crops they could be growing. The real value is added by middle tier producers who process the raw material into cocaine and heroin, yes? The value added here derives entirely from what a kilo of either will sell for on the streets of the U.S. and Europe. That price is kept artificially high by prohibition in terms of the risks to black marketeers moving it who want a substantial return on their investment to offset those risks, and in terms of what the market will bear to pay for a product that's always in demand. We know already Heroin addicts will pay just about anything for the stuff. Legalise it, including production of it and you change the dynamic completely, the economics of prohibition go right out the window.
I am not so sure you will, drug barons are not going to put thier hands up and say "fair enough it was good while it lasted" they will squeeze the farmers even more, they will find slave labour, they will "cut" products with even more dangerous additives, make more designer drugs that are not available from the chemist, they will continue to compete with the prices the chemist charges with his overheads and taxes.
This has to be done globally, locally will not work but once the trade is legalised what makes coca leaves and opium poppies different to any other cash crop bought and sold on the open market? Wheres the incentive for the murderous criminal operations who run the trade once you take away their profit margin?
Prohibition certainly gave large profit margins, supply and demand does that, it also created the super gang, the Mafia in all it's names all over the world, but when prohibition ended the Mafia's didn't, they stepped up thier operations in other areas, gambling, extortion, people traffiking etc, and I believe the same will happen if you take away a lot of thier drug profits, you could be creating a whole new world of crime or an increase in the other crimes. And today without prohibition, millions is made in supplying cheap alcohol, cheaper than the supermarket which many say sell it too cheap, Vodka dealers are making huge profits in tax free sales and alcohol with cheaper ingredients added to it, the tobacco market does the same yet there are people calling for a total ban on smoking in the UK.
We've not even started on what happens when other countries pull the rug from under the Afghanistans and South / Central Americas of this world by starting up production themselves. It's my understanding pharmaceutical heroin ( diamorphine ) for medicinal use by the NHS is produced from poppies grown legally, mostly in this country? There was no real problem with magic mushrooms being sold openly before the ban, most were U.K. produced grown on small-ish scale in terrariums. Cannabis in the U.K. is almost entirely home grown skunk these days, being much lower risk to dealers than they'd otherwise face trying to import the stuff. Legalise weed altogether I think you'd find quite a lot of users would produce the stuff themselves investing in a couple hundred quids worth of hydroponics. Many do already, no criminal gangs involved whatsoever. Most of your newer synthetics are coming out of Chinese chemical factories where production of them is legal. Where does that leave your argument now?
I would question how involved the gangs are, most canabis factories of any significant size are set up by Albanians in this Country, sure smaller quantities are grown by small time dealers but don't underestimate the organised crime gangs.
This is all thought experiment Jed, I'm not seriously suggesting we tear up all the laws and jump feet first into some kind of free for all. I'm genuinely interested in other views as to what might happen if we did that though. The drugs trade is not going to go away, no matter what we do. We know what the harms of prohibition are, you've touched on some yourself. If we cannot rid ourselves globally of these associated harms absolutely then the next best thing is harm reduction, isn't it. If it can be demonstrated that legalisation results in fewer harms than prohibition then that's a win, surely. You brought up morals. Which is the more moral course there?
But it didn't the mafia merely moved into other forms of organised crime, almost all of which were worse for the people of america than the problems of drinking caused.
I understand what you are saying about the need to look at the situation and it is clear that you have thought about it, but not everyone out there and in this thread has thought of the consequences, they have only listened to half the pro's and none of the cons methinks

16 Oct 2012

Quote by Lilith
This is a very interesting question, but is totally off-topic. Perhaps we should start a new thread on morals and the law... I have a lot of thoughts on this, but am about to go to bed, so will write them another time! :-)

We being you? lol

I await your new thread with great interest.

17 Oct 2012

Quote by starlightcouple

This is a very interesting question, but is totally off-topic. Perhaps we should start a new thread on morals and the law... I have a lot of thoughts on this, but am about to go to bed, so will write them another time! :-)

We being you? lol

I await your new thread with great interest.
:lol: - Sure, I'll start a thread on this at some point. I need to figure out how best to phrase the topic though, as some people have criticised my thread titles in the past innocent

;-)

17 Oct 2012

Quote by Lilith

This is a very interesting question, but is totally off-topic. Perhaps we should start a new thread on morals and the law... I have a lot of thoughts on this, but am about to go to bed, so will write them another time! :-)

We being you? lol

I await your new thread with great interest.
:lol: - Sure, I'll start a thread on this at some point. I need to figure out how best to phrase the topic though, as some people have criticised my thread titles in the past innocent

;-)
Just don't ask for people's opinions though eh? rolleyes

17 Oct 2012

Quote by starlightcouple
Just don't ask for people's opinions though eh?

Come on, Star - you've got a thicker skin than that. I like your opinions - they're colourful, and always get people talking. (And you know they'd all miss you if you left ;-) )
Cheer up passionkiss

24 Feb 2013

Don't usually do the e-petition thing, not sure I've ever seen a useful result but if anyone thinks the Misuse of Drugs Act is a failed weapon in the 'War On Drugs' ( TM Richard Nixon 40 odd years ago, still losing FFS ) in urgent need of review you may wish to put your name to this:

It's got the 1000 votes needed to get this on the agenda in theory, but being a completely subject for front benchers any extra push we can give it is good.
This is not about drugs BTW. This is about failed policy and wasted tax-payers money in these austere times we live in. It's about drug users who are gonna find themselves criminalised once again in a coupla days for trying to stay legal. Like this:

26 Feb 2013

Regardless of if we legalise illegal drugs or not .. they are easier to buy 24/7 than milk most Cities. Most drug users become criminals through their actions and habits as opposed to failed policy and the system. I wonder if we break even money wise from the tax on cigs and the cost of health care due to them? Those and booze are perhaps worse in effect than the illegal ones too.
If we legalise drugs.. itd be worse than already .. and its pretty bad at times eh
Wonder if they were illegal if itd make less try them too. Was way more fun before 18 getting served in a pub .. once you could legally .. just the normal.
cant see the link between morals and the law either. Some or our laws are morally corrupt never mind have any.
Legal or not from cigs and booze to hard core heroin addicts needing a fix .. always ends badly usually with violence too. If we legalise herion how does it effect users ability to pay then? Probably more expensive so need to rob more for it.
Some just cant be leglaised, id not change it from how it is now .. just change the law to make it easier for the plod to put them away long enough they are off them and let out knowing if they get lifted again for it .. double the first sentence.
By legalising them arent we saying .. hey its fine to be out your box and lose everything before the jail. Ive lost close mates to mistress Columbia and not one of them i would want legally in that state out and about.
Cant think of one plus for the non junkie population if they could get them out a vending machine at work for a fix.
Dont know the solution either .. its their choice to start though.. if they have no moral code or sense not to. Should we for them?

27 Feb 2013

If it's illegal then it shouldn't be manufactured, supplied or used.
Anyone who does should answer to the law for their crimes.
Bottom line, it's legal or it isn't. Dress it up however you like.

27 Feb 2013

Quote by flower411
If it's illegal then it shouldn't be manufactured, supplied or used.
Anyone who does should answer to the law for their crimes.
Bottom line, it's legal or it isn't. Dress it up however you like.

Cannabis is a weed ...
Psylosybin mushrooms grow just like any other fungus in the wild ...
Opium poppies are probably far more common than you imagine !
Mushrooms and eating them is not illegal but processing them is ! So you can eat the fuckers raw but it`s illegal to cook them ....even a society with no other crime would find it hard to police that !
... and?
Are these items that you mention in the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 - set out as illegal to manufacture.... etc
If they are then it's illegal.
If the aren't - then so what?

28 Feb 2013

the only drugs i know about are steroids.
in my sport i am randomly tested and i have several off season tests as to comply is an automatic life time ban.
i cannot even take over the counter cough medicines as these like codine are on the banned list.
relentless energy drinks are also banned but red bull is fine (work that one out?)
only protein suppliment i can take is maximuscle because it is the only one cleared by my governing body. muscle milk and cyto gain (which bodybuilder use with steroids) are banned but you can buy them in holland and barratts.
my view is if people want to run faster,punch harder or turn into a hulk let them have a championship for them where everyone is using.
leave the real champions to fight it out fairly.
when you consider the damage people do to their bodies using steroids is it really worth it? the nhs is carrying out more operations on men to correct breast tissue from the damage and also it is true your testicles do shrink and you have to use another drug to get yourself going again.
and if your buying online what are you really getting in the post?
its not worth fucking yourself up for. your gonna get old one day and be proper fucked.

2 Mar 2013

I got no opinion other than that based on personal experience - more money should be put into GOOD 12 Step Treatment Centres for the addicts that really want to become clean. yeh we see the celbrities go into private treatment on a regular basis - most likely because their families and friends have persuaded them to go. Private treatment is terribly expensive for the rest of us common folks. I am an addict, i have been in recovery now for 15 years this June, I was blessed to be able to gain treatment in a Priory Clinic for 6 weeks, paid for by the NHS, I had to fight to get this and am eternally grateful for the opportunity given to me. Legalising or decriminalising doesnt change things for the addicts, we dont CHOOSE to become addicted to these substances, however we did in the first instance make a CHOICE to use them, legal or illegal. Instead of debating this over and over again in government why dont they spend that money on increasing places in treatment to make it available to all who want it more than anything else in their life.
Thats my rant over lol

Still living life one day at a time, 15 years on, clean and happy to be still here and not 6 feet under in a box smile

2 Mar 2013

Quote by katniss
Still living life one day at a time, 15 years on, clean and happy to be still here and not 6 feet under in a box

:thumbup:

2 Mar 2013

Quote by katniss
Instead of debating this over and over again in government why dont they spend that money on increasing places in treatment to make it available to all who want it more than anything else in their life.
Thats my rant over
Still living life one day at a time, 15 years on, clean and happy to be still here and not 6 feet under in a box

:kiss: :kiss:

2 Mar 2013

Forgetting the thread here entirely.
I have the opinion that each to there own legal or illegal shit happens that we simply cant police/control.
The focus should be more on the management of use and support for lost souls caught by addiction.
I know drug users that hold down great jobs have kids a house etc and also know a few that sadly cannot muster the self control to manage there addiction and lose everything and beg steal and borrow.
Katniss, I have to say well said. I do believe the focus should be turned more towards the support than policing of. As the forementioned is far easier and more realistic cure/ control to the issue.
Its human nature to rebel and self destruct, why try to police something to squash it when those whome are in power are just as likely to be guilty themselves.
Its nature to nurture not control.
Just my thoughts on a napkin tis all.