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EDL/LUAF marches
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Sex God
Quote by nellie-mwgc
So do you think EDL and LUAF marches should be allowed to go ahead, or any similar protests/marches ?
Do you?
Sex God
As a democrat of course I have to extend to them the same right to freedom of speech, freedom of association, and freedom to peacefully protest I would claim for myself, even if they ((( The EDL that is. How dare they even claim to be defending Englishness and the English. They do not speak for me. ))) are fascist cunts through and through. Course, by the same token I and others ((( The LUAF. ))) can claim the same right to challenge them publicly, peacefully.
Those who choose to engage in violent disorder at such events will quite rightly be picked off by the police and arrested, so I'm generally opposed to bans on marches purely because the potential that some might choose to commit criminal offences exists. We don't ordinarily police things like that, second guessing what someone might choose to do at some future point in time. All a bit Minority Report that if you ask me?
Those who choose to engage in violent disorder at such events will quite rightly be picked off by the police and arrested, so I'm generally opposed to bans on marches purely because the potential that some might choose to commit criminal offences exists. We don't ordinarily police things like that, second guessing what someone might choose to do at some future point in time. All a bit Minority Report that if you ask me?
yes they should be allowed to march..at a time when and where the police say so...so long as the march is orderly and peaceful.
We have the right to freedom of speech, freedom to make oneself heard. even if the diatribe being spouted is opposed to the majority.
Freedom of speech does not allow you to say offensive and intimidating things though.
We have the right to freedom of speech, freedom to make oneself heard. even if the diatribe being spouted is opposed to the majority.
Freedom of speech does not allow you to say offensive and intimidating things though.
Sex God
I support theirs and others right to march.
However, I would not allow two opposing marches on the same day in the same town
However, I would not allow two opposing marches on the same day in the same town
Quote by Bluefish2009
I support theirs and others right to march.
However, I would not allow two opposing marches on the same day in the same town
They wanted to both be there on the same day though, to oppose each other.
I was (proudly) part of the LUAF march and it was peaceful if noisy, although there was less of us than there was of the EDL.
The police around us were smiley and chatty and probably happy that they got us to watch over rather than the EDL !
Warming the Bed
Quote by neilinleeds
As a democrat of course I have to extend to them the same right to freedom of speech, freedom of association, and freedom to peacefully protest I would claim for myself, even if they ((( The EDL that is. How dare they even claim to be defending Englishness and the English. They do not speak for me. ))) are fascist cunts through and through. Course, by the same token I and others ((( The LUAF. ))) can claim the same right to challenge them publicly, peacefully.
Those who choose to engage in violent disorder at such events will quite rightly be picked off by the police and arrested, so I'm generally opposed to bans on marches purely because the potential that some might choose to commit criminal offences exists. We don't ordinarily police things like that, second guessing what someone might choose to do at some future point in time. All a bit Minority Report that if you ask me?
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:My ironymeter has just gone off the charts.
The EDL, as inarticulate and clumsy as they are, are protesting against one of the most right wing, authoritarian, illiberal, intolerant, fascistic, misogynist, gay hating doctrines to ever threaten the UK. The EDL was born in Luton when a group of Muslims disrupted a homecoming parade by British soldiers after a tour in Iraq.
The Muslim population of the UK is doubling every ten years (the 2011 census will be very interesting) and if you want to see the future and just how well communities get on with each other take a trip round Oldham, Luton, Tower Hamlets, Blackburn, Burnley, Leicester or Birmingham. Just when do you think it might be a good idea to protest against such a doctrine? In a few years when the UK population is 25% Muslim? Or wait a few more years until its 50% Muslim?
As for the EDL marches the majority of arrests are from the UAF, a group who utterly fail the self awareness test. They call themselves Unite Against Fascism then go onto the streets to prevent free speech through intimidation and violence. You couldn't make it up. It would be so funny if it were not all so potentially dangerous.
Me personally I believe in live and let live, trouble is most religions (with some being far worse than others) really do not believe in that at all.
Warming the Bed
Quote by Rogue_trader
yes they should be allowed to march..at a time when and where the police say so...so long as the march is orderly and peaceful.
We have the right to freedom of speech, freedom to make oneself heard. even if the diatribe being spouted is opposed to the majority.
Freedom of speech does not allow you to say offensive and intimidating things though.
Then you do not have freedom of speech.
Warming the Bed
Quote by nellie-mwgc
I think the problem is that the marches are not likely to be orderly and peaceful and also the EDL are being allowed to march past the very heart of Leicester which upsets many people inluding LUAF who think they shouldnt be allowed to do that !
Why should any group be banned from marching in Leicester? Or anywhere for that matter. To try and prevent the EDL from marching through the town you are playing exactly into their hands. They will say that its one rule for us and one rule for them and why can't we march through an English town blah blah blah.
The way to deal with the EDL is simply to ignore them. By confronting them as the UAF do it just gives the EDL more publicity, attention and highlights their agenda whilst showing the UAF to be against free speech and freedom to protest. Two traits in common with most fascists.
I didnt say the edl shouldnt be allowed to march, i said people werent happy that the edl were allowed to march past the clock tower which is considered by many to be the centre of Leicester, we (luaf) werent allowed to march past the clock tower, we were given a route away from there.
no one in the march i was in (luaf) was arrested or even warned about how they were behaving, the police around us were smiling and chatty, although i know that the edl march was stopped for a while due to some of them chanting personal racist comments at some people they passed by
i think that if we want free speach then we have to also allow thses marches
no one in the march i was in (luaf) was arrested or even warned about how they were behaving, the police around us were smiling and chatty, although i know that the edl march was stopped for a while due to some of them chanting personal racist comments at some people they passed by
i think that if we want free speach then we have to also allow thses marches
Warming the Bed
Quote by nellie-mwgc
I didnt say the edl shouldnt be allowed to march, i said people werent happy that the edl were allowed to march past the clock tower which is considered by many to be the centre of Leicester, we (luaf) werent allowed to march past the clock tower, we were given a route away from there.
no one in the march i was in (luaf) was arrested or even warned about how they were behaving, the police around us were smiling and chatty, although i know that the edl march was stopped for a while due to some of them chanting personal racist comments at some people they passed by
i think that if we want free speach then we have to also allow thses marches
Fair enough
Sex God
The EDL, as inarticulate and clumsy as they are, are protesting against one of the most right wing, authoritarian, illiberal, intolerant, fascistic, misogynist, gay hating doctrines to ever threaten the UK.
I agree that radical Islam runs counter to everything I believe in. The EDL though are in no way an effective method of countering hatred and intolerance. They simply pour petrol on the flames and further polarise things, drawing in those who previously may have had no strong opinions whatsoever but who now feel a need to take sides. You do not defeat hate-mongering and intolerance then by taking to the streets as a mob, intimidating those you claim to be defending us from with what is in essence the threat of violence, and do not tell me there is no such intimidation because I have seen it. It is a common denominator of their demos thus far.
if you want to see the future and just how well communities get on with each other take a trip round Oldham, Luton, Tower Hamlets, Blackburn, Burnley, Leicester or Birmingham.
Please don't patronise me. You know nothing about me or my life experience. I'm all too familiar with the kind of ghettoised insularity of some muslim populations in areas like Harehills and Beeston in Leeds, having lived in both those areas for many years. It's a problem I think, because it works against integration for first generation immigrants to a large extent, but faced with general hostility from large sections of the white population it is hardly surprising that many muslims prefer to live in close knit communities where their particular needs can be catered to, same as what happened with black immigrants who came over in the 50s and 60s before them. It's simple safety in numbers. What tends to happen though is that second and third generations become more integrated and westernised having being exposed all their lives to British culture, British schools and the workplace, and feel less of a need for such insularity.
As for the EDL marches the majority of arrests are from the UAF, a group who utterly fail the self awareness test. They call themselves Unite Against Fascism then go onto the streets to prevent free speech through intimidation and violence. You couldn't make it up. It would be so funny if it were not all so potentially dangerous.
And the EDL of course are all fluffy bunnies who would never think to use violence to further their political ends, aren't they? I would like to see these stats of yours that prove that most of the arrests made are of UAF members and other protesters against the EDL. It matters little though; those who choose to use violence or the threat of violence are to be condemned out of hand whichever side they take, except where used in self-defence, or in defence of others. The true purpose of going onto the streets in opposition is not to deny the EDL their right to free speech and peaceful protest. It is to challenge what they have to say for themselves and show that the ludicrously named English Defence League cannot claim in any way to speak for 'The English'. It is the very expression of free speech and peaceful protest, so please check your irony meter, it would appear to be faulty.
The way to deal with the EDL is simply to ignore them. By confronting them as the UAF do it just gives the EDL more publicity, attention and highlights their agenda
I actually agree with this in the main. By the same token the way to deal with Islamofascists like Al-Muhajiroun and their ilk is to ignore their attention seeking public pronouncements and thus treat them with the contempt they deserve. It's up to the security services and police to deal with those who truly pose a threat to us but a bearded bloke parading about shouting oscenities is doing a good enough job of making a twat of himself as far as most reasonable, intelligent people are concerned as it is, without the help of football hooligans, casuals and racist thugs aligned with the BNP.
maybe if governments both past and present had tackled these problems neil when they first arose, some may feel there would be no need for groups such as the EDL?
for me integration is a must for immigrants and the failure of this can only but hinder any form of social cohesion from the white person in general.
peeple settling in the uk who can hardly speek english, then get integrated into an area say east london or oldham as an example, and then never feel the need to step outside of that cocoon . how is that good for anyone neil? surely if anyone wants to come to the uk to live, then they should at leest want to understand our ways and our customs, but more importantly to integrate into this great country of ours, that has welcomed these peeple here
there are vast areas of the uk now where this happens all the time. from east london to parts of west bromwich, to oldham and sheffield, and many other areas. not good for the uk, not good for britain and in the long run will only heap more problems onto an already unstable society.
until these problems are adressed neil i beleeve that groups like the EDL will continue to grow and recruit, leading to race riots like we have seen many times over the yeers. the problems that have been left to fester in my opinion will continue to cause resentment. i may of course be wrong and talking complete rubbish of course.
for me integration is a must for immigrants and the failure of this can only but hinder any form of social cohesion from the white person in general.
peeple settling in the uk who can hardly speek english, then get integrated into an area say east london or oldham as an example, and then never feel the need to step outside of that cocoon . how is that good for anyone neil? surely if anyone wants to come to the uk to live, then they should at leest want to understand our ways and our customs, but more importantly to integrate into this great country of ours, that has welcomed these peeple here
there are vast areas of the uk now where this happens all the time. from east london to parts of west bromwich, to oldham and sheffield, and many other areas. not good for the uk, not good for britain and in the long run will only heap more problems onto an already unstable society.
until these problems are adressed neil i beleeve that groups like the EDL will continue to grow and recruit, leading to race riots like we have seen many times over the yeers. the problems that have been left to fester in my opinion will continue to cause resentment. i may of course be wrong and talking complete rubbish of course.
Warming the Bed
Please don't patronise me. You know nothing about me or my life experience. I'm all too familiar with the kind of ghettoised insularity of some muslim populations in areas like Harehills and Beeston in Leeds, having lived in both those areas for many years. It's a problem I think, because it works against integration for first generation immigrants to a large extent, but faced with general hostility from large sections of the white population it is hardly surprising that many muslims prefer to live in close knit communities where their particular needs can be catered to, same as what happened with black immigrants who came over in the 50s and 60s before them. It's simple safety in numbers. What tends to happen though is that second and third generations become more integrated and westernised having being exposed all their lives to British culture, British schools and the workplace, and feel less of a need for such insularity
Trouble is that is simply not happening. The second and third gerneration Muslims are MORE radical and less likely to integrate than those that first arrived here. What I posted previously was not patronising it was a simple statement of fact. Seperated communities are growing larger and further apart they are simply not integrating at all.
Muslims may want to live in close knit Muslim communities but the UK is not a Muslim country and it has vastly different values and norms that anyone living here needs to recognise and accept.
As for the EDL who you condemn, just who then should be highlighting the problems associated with the growing Muslim communities and their differences to British cultural norms? The Church of England? Well Rowan Williams has already stated its only a matter of time before we have sharia law courts. The BBC/Media? Well they have a news blackout on the mass trial of 47 Muslim men charged with grooming, and pimping white women and children now ongoing in Liverpool. They are more interested in Harry Redknaps tax affairs. The established political parties? Not that I support the BNP but when they first raised the problem of Muslims grooming white girls years ago they were shouted down and ignored by the Lib/Lab/Con leaving a great deal more vulnerable women to be taken advantage of.
And the EDL of course are all fluffy bunnies who would never think to use violence to further their political ends, aren't they? I would like to see these stats of yours that prove that most of the arrests made are of UAF members and other protesters against the EDL. It matters little though; those who choose to use violence or the threat of violence are to be condemned out of hand whichever side they take, except where used in self-defence, or in defence of others. The true purpose of going onto the streets in opposition is not to deny the EDL their right to free speech and peaceful protest. It is to challenge what they have to say for themselves and show that the ludicrously named English Defence League cannot claim in any way to speak for 'The English'. It is the very expression of free speech and peaceful protest, so please check your irony meter, it would appear to be faulty.
I never said the EDL were fluffy bunnies at all. Any such group will always have people joining it because they want a ruck or want to cause trouble, by condemning the whole organisation due to the actions of the few you then must agree that the UAF are also a violent threat to peace and order. Or is it one rule for one and one rule for another?
As for the stats they are freely available regarding who got nicked at such events google them.
Sorry but the reason the UAF take to the streets is SOLEY to stop others from marching and protesting to try and pretend otherwise is just plain absurd. The EDL may not speak for you fair enough its a free country but there are plenty for whom they do speak.
I actually agree with this in the main. By the same token the way to deal with Islamofascists like Al-Muhajiroun and their ilk is to ignore their attention seeking public pronouncements and thus treat them with the contempt they deserve. It's up to the security services and police to deal with those who truly pose a threat to us but a bearded bloke parading about shouting oscenities is doing a good enough job of making a twat of himself as far as most reasonable, intelligent people are concerned as it is, without the help of football hooligans, casuals and racist thugs aligned with the BNP.
You simply cannot ignore them and you simply cannot equate the EDL with groups such as Al-Muhajiroun. These groups are actively involved in raising money to commit acts of violence, not silly organised marches and the like but real acts of violence. Bombs or taking down aircraft. They are also involved in recruiting and radicalising young men and women. They cannot be ignored they have to be policed and challenged. It is not some harmless bearded bloke making a tit of himself if only it were. For every successful prosecution of a terrorist for an attempted attack there are a number that are stopped that never reach the publics attention. It is only a matter of time before another attack is successful.
Your last line just demonstrates you have swallowed the BBC and Guardian propaganda. The BNP and the EDL loath each other and one of the founders of the EDL is a Sikh. I watched an attempted hatchet job by the BBC on another of the founder members of the EDL, trying to paint him as nothing more than a moronic racist, the reaction of the BBC bloke when the guy produced his mixed race daughter was fecking hilarious.
Quote by bayboy1664
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Your last line just demonstrates you have swallowed the BBC and Guardian propaganda.
i do not know about the guardian propoganda though i know what they stand for at times, but the bbc? now they are a different matter entirely.
to think my license fee money is being spent on idiots at the bbc peddling this utter nonsense.
oh the bbc, impartial? i dont think so at all. :notes:
it is about time the bbc were taken to task and appoint a director general with bigger balls.
Sex God
Trouble is that is simply not happening. The second and third gerneration Muslims are MORE radical and less likely to integrate than those that first arrived here.
The word you are looking for here is some. Some second and third gerneration Muslims are MORE radical. They are in no way the majority, or even a particularly large minority. The number belonging to or actively supporting groups like Al-muhajiroun is minute relative to the Muslim population as a whole. They do not represent the vast majority of Muslims who remain moderate in outlook, do integrate, and want their children to have all the advantages that brings in British society.
You simply cannot ignore them and you simply cannot equate the EDL with groups such as Al-Muhajiroun. These groups are actively involved in raising money to commit acts of violence, not silly organised marches and the like but real acts of violence. Bombs or taking down aircraft. They are also involved in recruiting and radicalising young men and women. They cannot be ignored they have to be policed and challenged. It is not some harmless bearded bloke making a tit of himself if only it were. For every successful prosecution of a terrorist for an attempted attack there are a number that are stopped that never reach the publics attention. It is only a matter of time before another attack is successful.
And you think the EDL does anything whatsoever to counter this radicalisation among young Muslims? They are the polar opposite of an effective counter to the radicalisation you describe. As for protecting us from Islamic terror again, how are they protecting us from that exactly? The only effective counter to that is in the control of the security services and police, as I stated in my previous post. The EDL are at best an irrelevance, at worst completely counter-productive inasmuch as they create an atmosphere that may make the kind of radicalisation they claim to deplore more likely, as young Muslims turn to a more radical expression of Islam in the face of such attacks on them. That's what tends to happen when you feel your identity threatened, isn't it? You cling to it all the harder and assert it more strongly
Your last line just demonstrates you have swallowed the BBC and Guardian propaganda. The BNP and the EDL loath each other and one of the founders of the EDL is a Sikh.
I've swallowed nothing. I did not claim that all EDL members are racist thugs aligned with the BNP did I? I gave a list which included hooligans, casuals and BNP thugs. Didn't say you necessarily have to be a knuckle dragging fascist to join. I am well aware that they have support from some you would not expect to align themselves with a fascist or racist organisation, Guramat Singh being one such example. But then there is a strong historical antipathy between Muslims and Sikhs going back to at least the 17th Century, isn't there, so why should we be surprised? He seems to think he's some sort of warrior fighting the Moghul hordes in the grand Sikh tradition. Interesting that he's come under immense pressure to renounce his stance with the EDL from within his own community. I wonder what it is they know about the EDL that has led them to take that position?
As for the BNP and EDL loathing each other, I'm sure Nick Griffin hates them. They're stealing all his thunder aren't they, getting better press than he ever had, but explain then the EDL's links with the British Freedom Party, an organisation formed by resigned BNP members dissatisfied with Nick Griffin's leadership. The BFP is just the BNP by another name in terms of its leadership and core values. Explain why it is you have current and ex-BNP core activists like Tommy Robinson ( Steven Lennon ) right up there at the top, or people like Chris Renton ( EDL website admin ) and Davy Cooling ( Luton EDL Facebook page admin ), people like Richard Price ( Organiser Birmingham protest. ) or Combat 18 thugs Alan Thompson and Barry Osborne ( Stoke protest ). What are they doing with the EDL given they 'loathe' each other. If either of us have swallowed anything it's you, falling for the official line. It's fucking bullshit, as even the most cursory investigation will confirm.
