So, a dictator is replaced by an elected president and then people find in the end they don't like him either so the military move in a coup d'état and remove him.
By all accounts, he didn't do anything wrong; he didn't murder Egyptians or be otherwise accused of crimes against humanity or the State. He just became 'unpopular'. So then, where is the democracy in that?
Should Cameron now be fearful, give that he is making troops redundant and cutting the defence budget, that the military will be moved to remove him in a similar way and install Charlie as an interim head of state?
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Egypt
Sex God
It was the drift towards ever more religious intolerance by the Muslim Brotherhood that sealed their fate. Egypt has a sizable Christian minority and a large section of liberal muslims who were simply not having the ever more suffocating Islamic laws that were being introduced.
Quote by Too Hot
It was the drift towards ever more religious intolerance by the Muslim Brotherhood that sealed their fate. Egypt has a sizable Christian minority and a large section of liberal muslims who were simply not having the ever more suffocating Islamic laws that were being introduced.
So the UK electorate are ever more suffering increased austerity whilst MPs wallow in ever increasing expenses and benefits. Should Cameron be worried about his position?
What makes it right for the military to intervene to remove a legitimately elected administration?
The French aren't too happy just now with François Hollande after only a year in office. Would it just as much be acceptable for the French electorate to demonstrate on the streets of Paris and demand the military remove him as well?
Quote by GnV
So, a dictator is replaced by an elected president and then people find in the end they don't like him either so the military move in a coup d'état and remove him.
By all accounts, he didn't do anything wrong; he didn't murder Egyptians or be otherwise accused of crimes against humanity or the State. He just became 'unpopular'. So then, where is the democracy in that?
Should Cameron now be fearful, give that he is making troops redundant and cutting the defence budget, that the military will be moved to remove him in a similar way and install Charlie as an interim head of state?
Egypt like many Middle Eastern countries are/ were gripped by the Arab Spring, and the wonders they thought it would bring. But be careful what you wish for as I do not see any difference with the before and the after.
I think Cameron has nothing to worry about GnV. Whilst the UK has it's problems countries like Egypt and many of the other Middle East Countries lack well behind the UK in democracy, and in fact most other things as well. We have been to Egypt 3 times in the last 5 years. Of course the Red Sea resorts like Sharm el-Sheikh are a mile away from the likes of Cairo. But last year whilst we were there there was problems just up the road in the Sinai Peninsula, where there were people killed.
We have been to Cairo and sorry it is like the majority of Middle Eastern Cities, disgusting. The Egyptian people who live in that part of Egypt are a million miles away from the people in the Red Sea area.
The people of Egypt screamed for the end of Hosni Mubarak and got their wish. Three years ago our hotels beach path went right past his house where there were armed guards outside this lavish house, ready to take him to Cairo to stand trial. The people thought by getting rid of him their problems would be resolved with it being whipped up into a frenzy by hundreds of thousands of people in Cairo. Well it now seems three years later they are back where they were. As I said earlier, be careful what you wish for.
Sex God
Quote by GnV
It was the drift towards ever more religious intolerance by the Muslim Brotherhood that sealed their fate. Egypt has a sizable Christian minority and a large section of liberal muslims who were simply not having the ever more suffocating Islamic laws that were being introduced.
So the UK electorate are ever more suffering increased austerity whilst MPs wallow in ever increasing expenses and benefits. Should Cameron be worried about his position?
What makes it right for the military to intervene to remove a legitimately elected administration?
The French aren't too happy just now with François Hollande after only a year in office. Would it just as much be acceptable for the French electorate to demonstrate on the streets of Paris and demand the military remove him as well?
I am not sure that you can compare fledgling Egypt with mature democracies like the UK and France.
Having said that, unpopular governments have been booted out by public opinion in the past.
Quote by flower411
Just reading some news articles and it is claimed that the Obama administration gives 1.3 billion dollars a year to the Egyptian military !
That would be Barack Obama, the winner of the Nobel peace prize !!
I wonder if Tony bliar gave any money to the likes of Gaddafi of Libya, or Mugabe etc. Well I mean Bliar was given the job of Middle East peace envoy, as the natural progression for taking us into war. :twisted:
I think democracy is safe in the UK, of course it hasn't always been that way as the war with the Roundheads and Cavaliers proved and France had the French revolution but these days Britain likes anal more than intervention.
We have elected successive governments to allow anyone outside the UK to stick it up our asses the EU being the main contender followed by "world opinion" we should learn from others, Australia on border control, Israel on world opinion and so on.
As for our own government we allow them to get away with murder, quite literally but also theft and fraud too.
We have elected successive governments to allow anyone outside the UK to stick it up our asses the EU being the main contender followed by "world opinion" we should learn from others, Australia on border control, Israel on world opinion and so on.
As for our own government we allow them to get away with murder, quite literally but also theft and fraud too.
Sex God
Do you not think that the Egyptian people thought that once they had a revolution, got rid of Mubarak, then had a real election that the one they elected (Morsi) would actually do as he promised ? It came as a real shock to them that once in office he did not do what he had promised but totally different things.
However, we in the UK KNOW that in a real democracy you elect someone as PM or President then EXPECT him / her to break all their promises with 12 months or less !!
Our current and recent past Governments proving the point.
John
However, we in the UK KNOW that in a real democracy you elect someone as PM or President then EXPECT him / her to break all their promises with 12 months or less !!
Our current and recent past Governments proving the point.
John
Quote by TH
I am not sure that you can compare fledgling Egypt with mature democracies like the UK and France.
Yes you can!
It matters not a jot whether its a fledgling democracy or the mother of all democracies, the principle is the same.
Morsi was democratically elected as President under the rule of law. The Constitution was suspended by the military in a coup funded by the US and possibly other Arab interests (whether they like it or not). He has been removed from office and placed under house arrest quite illegally IMHO. Political leaders throughout the world should show their disgust at this by refusing to acknowledge the interim regime or whatever puppet administration follows it.
Today is NOT a good day for democracy. The west is now going to pay the price of interference.
Quote by GnV
I am not sure that you can compare fledgling Egypt with mature democracies like the UK and France.
Yes you can!
It matters not a jot whether its a fledgling democracy or the mother of all democracies, the principle is the same.
Morsi was democratically elected as President under the rule of law. The Constitution was suspended by the military in a coup funded by the US and possibly other Arab interests (whether they like it or not). He has been removed from office and placed under house arrest quite illegally IMHO. Political leaders throughout the world should show their disgust at this by refusing to acknowledge the interim regime or whatever puppet administration follows it.
Today is NOT a good day for democracy. The west is now going to pay the price of interference.
So nothing new happening here then
The government in Egypt was doomed to failure before it even sat down in its parliament they simply did not stand a chance, apparently none of them claimed expenses so none of them got water features at home, none made outlandish claims for second homes or family members working for them, they had no "previous party" to blame the woes upon and they did not use the "we will have a referendum on that in a few years" ploy.
Sex God
Quote by MidsCouple24
The government in Egypt was doomed to failure before it even sat down in its parliament they simply did not stand a chance, apparently none of them claimed expenses so none of them got water features at home, none made outlandish claims for second homes or family members working for them, they had no "previous party" to blame the woes upon and they did not use the "we will have a referendum on that in a few years" ploy.
As I said above they really didn't understand how a modern Democracy was supposed to work. Should not Tony Blair / Nick Clegg / David Cameron (delete / clone as required) have been there to advise them on how to fool the public ?
John
Sex God
G,
Fledgling democracy indeed.
Like most they has a military backed leader in Mubarak, plus those before him. The common theme was to get rid of Mubarak, which they did.
They even accepted the military running the Country whilst all sides were mainly united and pushing for an interim Constitution and free & fair elections. Which they got.
Winning this from a wide variety of parties and groups was the Muslim Brotherhood, with Morsi leading it. Because they were the most popular, maybe if going on votes cast, or because as the largest single group they were the best organised - probably.
What's happened since ?
Various things, but also changes to the Constitution.
Sadly what's not seemingly happened has been any improvement on the economy, therefore impacting the majority of people.
The 'will of the people' being we want to be better off and you've not delivered, where else have we heard that ?
Back to the fledgling bit again, as it's only very recent that they saw/remembered that mass demonstrations toppled Mubarak, therefore why can't we do the same with Morsi.....and logically whomever replaces him at the next elections if needs.
If history has taught us nothing, it's that it'll be a long process before things improve, or like in a 'modern' (sic) democracy the populace are that down trodden and weary that a popular uprising isn't worth the bother. (Generations since the US or UK civil wars, and decades since the French had a 'revolution' and created another new republic.)
Whilst reference has been made to Bliar and Obama, for us the real worry is the Mekon, aka droaning voiced how the hell did he get the role, Hague and the eejits in the FCO. Whilst not a fan of Putin, he did have a point at the G8 around they dealt with the elected Syrian government rather than the UK, so how would Hague/Cameron of felt if they'd taken a similar stance during the 70s/80s with a certain UK province and the IRA ?
Exactly.
Fledgling democracy indeed.
Like most they has a military backed leader in Mubarak, plus those before him. The common theme was to get rid of Mubarak, which they did.
They even accepted the military running the Country whilst all sides were mainly united and pushing for an interim Constitution and free & fair elections. Which they got.
Winning this from a wide variety of parties and groups was the Muslim Brotherhood, with Morsi leading it. Because they were the most popular, maybe if going on votes cast, or because as the largest single group they were the best organised - probably.
What's happened since ?
Various things, but also changes to the Constitution.
Sadly what's not seemingly happened has been any improvement on the economy, therefore impacting the majority of people.
The 'will of the people' being we want to be better off and you've not delivered, where else have we heard that ?
Back to the fledgling bit again, as it's only very recent that they saw/remembered that mass demonstrations toppled Mubarak, therefore why can't we do the same with Morsi.....and logically whomever replaces him at the next elections if needs.
If history has taught us nothing, it's that it'll be a long process before things improve, or like in a 'modern' (sic) democracy the populace are that down trodden and weary that a popular uprising isn't worth the bother. (Generations since the US or UK civil wars, and decades since the French had a 'revolution' and created another new republic.)
Whilst reference has been made to Bliar and Obama, for us the real worry is the Mekon, aka droaning voiced how the hell did he get the role, Hague and the eejits in the FCO. Whilst not a fan of Putin, he did have a point at the G8 around they dealt with the elected Syrian government rather than the UK, so how would Hague/Cameron of felt if they'd taken a similar stance during the 70s/80s with a certain UK province and the IRA ?
Exactly.
Quote by HnS
G,
Fledgling democracy indeed.
Like most they has a military backed leader in Mubarak, plus those before him. The common theme was to get rid of Mubarak, which they did.
They even accepted the military running the Country whilst all sides were mainly united and pushing for an interim Constitution and free & fair elections. Which they got.
Winning this from a wide variety of parties and groups was the Muslim Brotherhood, with Morsi leading it. Because they were the most popular, maybe if going on votes cast, or because as the largest single group they were the best organised - probably.
What's happened since ?
Various things, but also changes to the Constitution.
Sadly what's not seemingly happened has been any improvement on the economy, therefore impacting the majority of people.
The 'will of the people' being we want to be better off and you've not delivered, where else have we heard that ?
Back to the fledgling bit again, as it's only very recent that they saw/remembered that mass demonstrations toppled Mubarak, therefore why can't we do the same with Morsi.....and logically whomever replaces him at the next elections if needs.
If history has taught us nothing, it's that it'll be a long process before things improve, or like in a 'modern' (sic) democracy the populace are that down trodden and weary that a popular uprising isn't worth the bother. (Generations since the US or UK civil wars, and decades since the French had a 'revolution' and created another new republic.)
Whilst reference has been made to Bliar and Obama, for us the real worry is the Mekon, aka droaning voiced how the hell did he get the role, Hague and the eejits in the FCO. Whilst not a fan of Putin, he did have a point at the G8 around they dealt with the elected Syrian government rather than the UK, so how would Hague/Cameron of felt if they'd taken a similar stance during the 70s/80s with a certain UK province and the IRA ?
Exactly.
:thumbup: Brilliantly put.
"the arab spring was sprung in washington al la "facebook and twitter colour revolutions".
mubarak was got rid of because although he was a relatively compliant puppet for the u.s., peace with zionism etc, he refused to endorse the invasions/occupations of afghanistan and iraq by refusing to join the coalition of the willing and further refused to join the nato/gulf puppet monachial overthrow of the secular states of libya and syria. syria once being part of the egypt syria nation state created under nasser.
morsi's "muslim brotherhood" (read british intelligence) won 27% of the vote on a platform of improving the living standards of the egyptian" masses" as he himself put it. during his tenure he gave himself "unconstitutional dictatorial powers", removed state subsidies on cooking oil, wheat, bread and petrol and called for jihad against the syrian secular regime of assad and began introducing islamic law in secular egypt.
it should be remembered that the demonstrations in egypt a year or two ago were numbered in the tens of thousands if that, confined to tahir square in cairo and also in alexandria. last sunday the count was upwards of 20 million all over egypt.
the army generals (owned by washington) no doupt guided by washington sought to become the saviours fearing a junior officer revolt and potential nasserite rebellion and control the situation. they also had fallen out with morsi over his screams to send the army into syria to support the american/nato death squad mercenaries who are being routed in syria.
the standard of living of the overwhelming majority of egyptians has plummeted under morsi and the muslim brotherhood by their acceptance of terms dictated by the i.m.f. for loans (removal of subsidies). religeous freedoms were threatened against the various muslim sects and coptic christians. the protests call's response by millions took the various western intel agencies by suprise. they now have a colourful twitter/facebook problem. you fool me once, shame on you. you fool me twice, shame on me.
mubarak was got rid of because although he was a relatively compliant puppet for the u.s., peace with zionism etc, he refused to endorse the invasions/occupations of afghanistan and iraq by refusing to join the coalition of the willing and further refused to join the nato/gulf puppet monachial overthrow of the secular states of libya and syria. syria once being part of the egypt syria nation state created under nasser.
morsi's "muslim brotherhood" (read british intelligence) won 27% of the vote on a platform of improving the living standards of the egyptian" masses" as he himself put it. during his tenure he gave himself "unconstitutional dictatorial powers", removed state subsidies on cooking oil, wheat, bread and petrol and called for jihad against the syrian secular regime of assad and began introducing islamic law in secular egypt.
it should be remembered that the demonstrations in egypt a year or two ago were numbered in the tens of thousands if that, confined to tahir square in cairo and also in alexandria. last sunday the count was upwards of 20 million all over egypt.
the army generals (owned by washington) no doupt guided by washington sought to become the saviours fearing a junior officer revolt and potential nasserite rebellion and control the situation. they also had fallen out with morsi over his screams to send the army into syria to support the american/nato death squad mercenaries who are being routed in syria.
the standard of living of the overwhelming majority of egyptians has plummeted under morsi and the muslim brotherhood by their acceptance of terms dictated by the i.m.f. for loans (removal of subsidies). religeous freedoms were threatened against the various muslim sects and coptic christians. the protests call's response by millions took the various western intel agencies by suprise. they now have a colourful twitter/facebook problem. you fool me once, shame on you. you fool me twice, shame on me.
