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energy debate?..... A load of hot air more like it.

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Can't understand why the Conservatives are on the back foot with the energy debate and labours scam price freeze.
The allegation is that there is an energy cartel and yet we are amongst the bottom of the pile in terms of our energy costs throughout Europe. How can there be a cartel if our prices are generally lower than the rest of Europe?
Why is everyone patting Milliband on the back for suggesting a prize freeze and break up of the cartel if energy companies only earn £65 a year on an average bill of £1,350 (according to the BBC). Forcing them to halve their profits will save £30 a year?? WTF??
Is this really because we have become a nation of people who believe what we want to believe rather than the truth? Energy prices are less in this country than in most of Europe. Energy prices are increasing because demand is increasing and they will not be coming down any time soon. Our current green levy of 10% will be increasing to 33% over the next 20 years and this will exponentially affect already increasing conventional energy prices meaning even bigger energy bills.
People must be seriously deluded if they think that attacking the energy companies is going to result is lower energy bills of any meaningful amount.
Moronic labour supporters and the money for nothing generation sadly.
not sure but if i got this correct the energy companies are in front of Parliament this week.
to justify how they sell wholesale utilities to them selves at huge profits then selling it on to us at just 5% profit with another company, making them look they are doing the Honourable thing whilst making the huge profits further up the supply chain :censored:
Quote by Lizaleanrob
not sure but if i got this correct the energy companies are in front of Parliament this week.
to justify how they sell wholesale utilities to them selves at huge profits then selling it on to us at just 5% profit with another company, making them look they are doing the Honourable thing whilst making the huge profits further up the supply chain :censored:

Oh and don't forget paying themselves massive bonus's for the privilege !!
The companies talk about the increase in wholesale gas prices......yea that is because the cost went down so much last year and oh surprise, surprise, no reduction in the costs were passed on !!!
It is wrong when in this day and age people have to choose between Food or Warmth !!
Its quite simple the maximum they should be able to raise prices is in line with inflation !!
Quote by deancannock
not sure but if i got this correct the energy companies are in front of Parliament this week.
to justify how they sell wholesale utilities to them selves at huge profits then selling it on to us at just 5% profit with another company, making them look they are doing the Honourable thing whilst making the huge profits further up the supply chain :censored:

Oh and don't forget paying themselves massive bonus's for the privilege !!
The companies talk about the increase in wholesale gas prices......yea that is because the cost went down so much last year and oh surprise, surprise, no reduction in the costs were passed on !!!
It is wrong when in this day and age people have to choose between Food or Warmth !!
Its quite simple the maximum they should be able to raise prices is in line with inflation !!
meanwhile in the good ol USA their natural gas prices are almost the same as they was paying in the 70,s :eeek:
Interesting to see what a small independent supplier thinks...and said to the MP's today. Wholesale gas price cheaper now than in 2009 !!!!!
" the businesses practices of the "Big Six" was called into question by small scale competitor Ovo Energy.
Managing director Stephen Fitzpatrick told MPs he "can't explain" the price rises being imposed because his company was buying gas at a cheaper price - 5p a therm less - than it had in 2009.
Loyal bill-payers are charged are a far higher rate, in some cases £200 more, and loaded with environmental costs than those who switch but the companies responsible go "unchallenged" by Ofgem, he said.
"It looks to me like a lot of energy companies, a significant number of the Big Six, are charging the maximum price they feel they can get away with to the customers that they feel will not switch under any circumstances and then maintaining the illusion of competitive pricing with tariffs targeted towards a very small number of relatively well-engaged customers," he told MPs.
"In the case of npower, which is the worst offender, historically and today the price differential is about 16%, which is about £200."
He accused British Gas of being the "most active" in terms of running a dedicated "win back team" whose sole job was to call up customers that were leaving to say 'now we can cut your bill'.
"When this kind of behaviour is allowed to go unchallenged, and an ex-monopoly advantage that the Big Six have, is allowed to go unchallenged by Ofgem, then you will never get effective competition.
"If you don't have effective competition in a retail market then you are always going to be trying to find out where the money has gone and time and time again you will hear very clever, very complex, very confusing answers and you will never get to the bottom of it.
"Effective competition is the only solution to lower bills."
Mr Fitzpatrick has previously suggested that the larger energy companies pay over the odds for energy when their retail arms buy from their own wholesale divisions - a claim the other energy bosses denied today. "
Quote by deancannock
Interesting to see what a small independent supplier thinks...and said to the MP's today. Wholesale gas price cheaper now than in 2009 !!!!!
" the businesses practices of the "Big Six" was called into question by small scale competitor Ovo Energy.
Managing director Stephen Fitzpatrick told MPs he "can't explain" the price rises being imposed because his company was buying gas at a cheaper price - 5p a therm less - than it had in 2009.
Loyal bill-payers are charged are a far higher rate, in some cases £200 more, and loaded with environmental costs than those who switch but the companies responsible go "unchallenged" by Ofgem, he said.
"It looks to me like a lot of energy companies, a significant number of the Big Six, are charging the maximum price they feel they can get away with to the customers that they feel will not switch under any circumstances and then maintaining the illusion of competitive pricing with tariffs targeted towards a very small number of relatively well-engaged customers," he told MPs.
"In the case of npower, which is the worst offender, historically and today the price differential is about 16%, which is about £200."
He accused British Gas of being the "most active" in terms of running a dedicated "win back team" whose sole job was to call up customers that were leaving to say 'now we can cut your bill'.
"When this kind of behaviour is allowed to go unchallenged, and an ex-monopoly advantage that the Big Six have, is allowed to go unchallenged by Ofgem, then you will never get effective competition.
"If you don't have effective competition in a retail market then you are always going to be trying to find out where the money has gone and time and time again you will hear very clever, very complex, very confusing answers and you will never get to the bottom of it.
"Effective competition is the only solution to lower bills."
Mr Fitzpatrick has previously suggested that the larger energy companies pay over the odds for energy when their retail arms buy from their own wholesale divisions - a claim the other energy bosses denied today. "

Selective extraction of information Dean.
What about....
17 different enquiries since 2001 and not a suggestion of collusion or wrong doing
No arguments that Britain has energy prices significantly lower than close European countries
No arguments that the UK has a more competitive market than anywhere else in Europe
e-on requesting a competition enquiry to clear the issues
No argument that Milliband has effectively increased the cost of energy funding by his idiotic statement
Main point here Dean is that we have become a nation obsessed with blaming bankers, MP's, energy companies etc etc. we just have to get away from this idea that someone has to be to blame.
I do agree that there should be:
1) centralised wholesale energy supply
2) a single simple tariff for everyone.
Quote by deancannock
Interesting to see what a small independent supplier thinks...and said to the MP's today. Wholesale gas price cheaper now than in 2009 !!!!!
" the businesses practices of the "Big Six" was called into question by small scale competitor Ovo Energy.
Managing director Stephen Fitzpatrick told MPs he "can't explain" the price rises being imposed because his company was buying gas at a cheaper price - 5p a therm less - than it had in 2009.
Loyal bill-payers are charged are a far higher rate, in some cases £200 more, and loaded with environmental costs than those who switch but the companies responsible go "unchallenged" by Ofgem, he said.
"It looks to me like a lot of energy companies, a significant number of the Big Six, are charging the maximum price they feel they can get away with to the customers that they feel will not switch under any circumstances and then maintaining the illusion of competitive pricing with tariffs targeted towards a very small number of relatively well-engaged customers," he told MPs.
"In the case of npower, which is the worst offender, historically and today the price differential is about 16%, which is about £200."
He accused British Gas of being the "most active" in terms of running a dedicated "win back team" whose sole job was to call up customers that were leaving to say 'now we can cut your bill'.
"When this kind of behaviour is allowed to go unchallenged, and an ex-monopoly advantage that the Big Six have, is allowed to go unchallenged by Ofgem, then you will never get effective competition.
"If you don't have effective competition in a retail market then you are always going to be trying to find out where the money has gone and time and time again you will hear very clever, very complex, very confusing answers and you will never get to the bottom of it.
"Effective competition is the only solution to lower bills."
Mr Fitzpatrick has previously suggested that the larger energy companies pay over the odds for energy when their retail arms buy from their own wholesale divisions - a claim the other energy bosses denied today. "

As TooHot stated above, methinks Stephen Fitzpatrick is being selective with his facts....he wouldn't be trying to talk his business up would he?
Have a look at the following chart of wholesale gas prices on this link

You will see that there was a massive spike in wholesale prices in 2008, which retail prices did not match. It's probably fair to say that Ovo we're paying more for Gas in 2009 based on the prices throughout 2008. Then again they may have better buying power now than they had back in 2009.
This link provides some very interesting information, comparing the energy and fuel costs within the EU countries.

As TooHot has said above, the UK has some of the lowest energy costs within the EU. I believe that the VAT on energy bills in the UK is also lower than most UK countries but even allowing for this, the UK's energy costs still compare favourably with most other EU countries.
The one thing that stands out for me is that diesel is cheaper than unleaded petrol in most of the other EU countries, which to me confirms that drivers of diesel vehicles in the UK are being ripped off.
Quote by Max777
Interesting to see what a small independent supplier thinks...and said to the MP's today. Wholesale gas price cheaper now than in 2009 !!!!!
" the businesses practices of the "Big Six" was called into question by small scale competitor Ovo Energy.
Managing director Stephen Fitzpatrick told MPs he "can't explain" the price rises being imposed because his company was buying gas at a cheaper price - 5p a therm less - than it had in 2009.
Loyal bill-payers are charged are a far higher rate, in some cases £200 more, and loaded with environmental costs than those who switch but the companies responsible go "unchallenged" by Ofgem, he said.
"It looks to me like a lot of energy companies, a significant number of the Big Six, are charging the maximum price they feel they can get away with to the customers that they feel will not switch under any circumstances and then maintaining the illusion of competitive pricing with tariffs targeted towards a very small number of relatively well-engaged customers," he told MPs.
"In the case of npower, which is the worst offender, historically and today the price differential is about 16%, which is about £200."
He accused British Gas of being the "most active" in terms of running a dedicated "win back team" whose sole job was to call up customers that were leaving to say 'now we can cut your bill'.
"When this kind of behaviour is allowed to go unchallenged, and an ex-monopoly advantage that the Big Six have, is allowed to go unchallenged by Ofgem, then you will never get effective competition.
"If you don't have effective competition in a retail market then you are always going to be trying to find out where the money has gone and time and time again you will hear very clever, very complex, very confusing answers and you will never get to the bottom of it.
"Effective competition is the only solution to lower bills."
Mr Fitzpatrick has previously suggested that the larger energy companies pay over the odds for energy when their retail arms buy from their own wholesale divisions - a claim the other energy bosses denied today. "

As TooHot stated above, methinks Stephen Fitzpatrick is being selective with his facts....he wouldn't be trying to talk his business up would he?
Have a look at the following chart of wholesale gas prices on this link

You will see that there was a massive spike in wholesale prices in 2008, which retail prices did not match. It's probably fair to say that Ovo we're paying more for Gas in 2009 based on the prices throughout 2008. Then again they may have better buying power now than they had back in 2009.
This link provides some very interesting information, comparing the energy and fuel costs within the EU countries.

As TooHot has said above, the UK has some of the lowest energy costs within the EU. I believe that the VAT on energy bills in the UK is also lower than most UK countries but even allowing for this, the UK's energy costs still compare favourably with most other EU countries.
The one thing that stands out for me is that diesel is cheaper than unleaded petrol in most of the other EU countries, which to me confirms that drivers of diesel vehicles in the UK are being ripped off.
to be honest Max
it doesn't matter how low we consider our fuel bills compared to Europe, Dean is right when he says fuel poverty is unacceptable especially for those that need it most.
it not becoming obvious much when the fuel rises are always based before the coldest weather sets in
hiding behind commercial profits is bollocks and you got to be thick as fuck if you believe gas and electric companies make just 5% profit from retail sales as 5% is not a viable profit in any retail business.
Retail travel companies, ie High Street travel agents can only dream of achieving 5% net profit and I'm sure there are other retailers that are in a similar position.
Have a look at this link re energy company profits, this suggests that the overall net profit ( ie wholesale + retail) is about 7%

We are going to have to get used to paying higher energy bills as long as we have to import the bulk of our energy. Increased demand from the likes of China, India, Brazil etc will only push costs in one direction.
In edit. I've just had a quick look at some retail giants figures
These are the pre tax profits based as a percentage:
M&S 5.6
John Lewis 2.3
Tesco 3. 0
Sainsbury 3.4
Morrisons 4.8
It would appear that a 5% net profit is eminently viable.
Quote by Max777
Retail travel companies, ie High Street travel agents can only dream of achieving 5% net profit and I'm sure there are other retailers that are in a similar position.
Have a look at this link re energy company profits, this suggests that the overall net profit ( ie wholesale + retail) is about 7%

We are going to have to get used to paying higher energy bills as long as we have to import the bulk of our energy. Increased demand from the likes of China, India, Brazil etc will only push costs in one direction.
In edit. I've just had a quick look at some retail giants figures
These are the pre tax profits based as a percentage:
M&S 5.6
John Lewis 2.3
Tesco 3. 0
Sainsbury 3.4
Morrisons 4.8
It would appear that a 5% net profit is eminently viable.

if that's the case the bastards are ripping us off lol
on a serious note we looked a financing a restaurant project recently with the banks we was talking to wanting to see a realistic 25% profit forecast in order to consider financing
also would those figures include off shore undeclared profits innocent
Quote by eastkentstud
Moronic labour supporters and the money for nothing generation sadly.

struggling with this one. Money for nothing generation? Hang on a minute here, didn't we, as a nation, own in full railways, electric generating companies, gas companies, water companies, british telecom.......... the list goes on, and yet dear tory blue rinsed bitch maggie 'sold' them companies to 'us' the people that already owned them. Those companies then passed through our hands to the french, german, chinese........... etc until we are stretched beyond belief at the huge profits they generate for private individuals............. sorry, can't go on here. What an idiot.
Quote by capricornten
Moronic labour supporters and the money for nothing generation sadly.

struggling with this one. Money for nothing generation? Hang on a minute here, didn't we, as a nation, own in full railways, electric generating companies, gas companies, water companies, british telecom.......... the list goes on, and yet dear tory blue rinsed bitch maggie 'sold' them companies to 'us' the people that already owned them. Those companies then passed through our hands to the french, german, chinese........... etc until we are stretched beyond belief at the huge profits they generate for private individuals............. sorry, can't go on here. What an idiot.
Hummmm
How quickly you forget!
Hardly the blue rinse bitch you describe. She put an end to the immense power (no pun intended) wielded by the Trades Unions which saw the 3 day week, homes without electric, gas and coal. Rotting bodies stacking up waiting for burial. Huge piles of vermin infested rubbish lining Britain's streets.
You really prefer a return to that kind of scenario rather than the free market economy that exists today where you have the freedom of choice to select a provider rather than have the State owned one foisted on you?
Quote by GnV
Moronic labour supporters and the money for nothing generation sadly.

struggling with this one. Money for nothing generation? Hang on a minute here, didn't we, as a nation, own in full railways, electric generating companies, gas companies, water companies, british telecom.......... the list goes on, and yet dear tory blue rinsed bitch maggie 'sold' them companies to 'us' the people that already owned them. Those companies then passed through our hands to the french, german, chinese........... etc until we are stretched beyond belief at the huge profits they generate for private individuals............. sorry, can't go on here. What an idiot.
Hummmm
How quickly you forget!
Hardly the blue rinse bitch you describe. She put an end to the immense power (no pun intended) wielded by the Trades Unions which saw the 3 day week, homes without electric, gas and coal. Rotting bodies stacking up waiting for burial. Huge piles of vermin infested rubbish lining Britain's streets.
You really prefer a return to that kind of scenario rather than the free market economy that exists today where you have the freedom of choice to select a provider rather than have the State owned one foisted on you?
i think the rub is G even after 30 years someone always wants to hold us to ransom over our utilities
Quote by Lizaleanrob
Moronic labour supporters and the money for nothing generation sadly.

struggling with this one. Money for nothing generation? Hang on a minute here, didn't we, as a nation, own in full railways, electric generating companies, gas companies, water companies, british telecom.......... the list goes on, and yet dear tory blue rinsed bitch maggie 'sold' them companies to 'us' the people that already owned them. Those companies then passed through our hands to the french, german, chinese........... etc until we are stretched beyond belief at the huge profits they generate for private individuals............. sorry, can't go on here. What an idiot.
Hummmm
How quickly you forget!
Hardly the blue rinse bitch you describe. She put an end to the immense power (no pun intended) wielded by the Trades Unions which saw the 3 day week, homes without electric, gas and coal. Rotting bodies stacking up waiting for burial. Huge piles of vermin infested rubbish lining Britain's streets.
You really prefer a return to that kind of scenario rather than the free market economy that exists today where you have the freedom of choice to select a provider rather than have the State owned one foisted on you?
i think the rub is G even after 30 years someone always wants to hold us to ransom over our utilities
or blame poor old Maggie for things long past.
GnV.....mrs T did do some things good....There is little doubt the power of the unions was to much.......however she did an awful lot wrong as well....selling off the utilities is just one of many things . Short term gain...long term loss .
getting back on track.....we should simply state to the utilities companies that they can not raise their prices by more than the rate of inflation.
Quote by deancannock
GnV.....mrs T did do some things good....There is little doubt the power of the unions was to much.......however she did an awful lot wrong as well....selling off the utilities is just one of many things . Short term gain...long term loss .
getting back on track.....we should simply state to the utilities companies that they can not raise their prices by more than the rate of inflation.

Is the rate of inflation a good indicator/trigger?
Would prices be lower/higher if 'blue rinse maggie' hadn't sold off the lekky?
In France, EDF is still all but state owned but prices - whilst supposedly pegged by the Government (respected by the Sarkozy centre right administration) - have begun to rise above so called inflation under the Hollande socialist administration. So much for Socialism!
In truth, I don't think it matters a jot who holds the controlling interest; State or private or a combination of the two. The plain fact is that the consumer can expect to be shafted but at least there may be some choice as to whose dick you sit on :lol2:
sorry folks, someone is so far off the mark here that it defies logic.
Utilities. Rate of growth of the price of unit is far above inflation. Oddly enough it almost marks the annual rate of expected growth of profit (or dividend return on capital) which is far above the rate of previous, prior to privatisation, inflation rate.
Statistics here government figures so don't argue. And who owns these companies? Tax paid outside eu so no returns for us folks!
Trains. omg. The only outfit to mark a return is the failing industry that was taken over by the government to bail it out. Even so the standards we all expect and the price of tickets have so far exceeded inflation it's a joke. Actually though we are still subsiding rail! What a joke.
And then I move on to education, a chapter in itself. Standards? Who wants their children educated by unqualified staff? Who wants their children educated without ofsted quality inspections? Who wants their children to eat school meals below govenment set standards? If you're happy with answering yes to all three, go to a 'free school' where you can eat crap, be educated by idiots and who cares what you end up being taught as long as it's cheap!!!!!!!!!!!!1
Bugger, left wing leanings coming out again!