No sorry I think he should have been extradited.
The reasons for me are very simple and clear cut. Did he know at the time that he was doing wrong? Yes he did according to experts. Did he also know that by doing wrong that he could get into serious trouble? Yes he did according to experts.
So where is the problem.
On this basis had this verdict happened two weeks ago then I am sure that Hooky Hamza would have used Aspergers in his argument for not being extradited.
I did read somewhere that his Aspergers had not been recognised before he was caught, but only afterwards which now seems to be a bit of a result for him. Maybe someone knows more whether this is true or not better than me? Also as the OP has already stated, this was apparently a human rights issue, and the reasons given were that there was evidence that he would try and kill himself if he was extradited.
Whether that is fact or a clever lawyers argument, I would still hope that his offense can still be heard in a British court? Surely there must be a sound argument for this, or is it purely that he is a British citizen and Hamza was not, as far as one being extradited and one not?
Sorry but if Hamza has been extradited under the treaty laws we currently have with the US, then I do not know why an American judge cannot determine whether he should stand trial or not, as the offenses were against the USA.
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Gary Mckinnon
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In answer to my own question.
He was arrested in 2002 and diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder compounded with depression in 2008. Six years after his arrest. He was born in 1966 so if my maths are correct it took 42 to come to that diagnosis?
Sorry but it is in my nature to be cynical when a person suddenly develops something that it would seem even his Mother did not know he had, after being charged with a very serious crime. But sometimes even the Government gets rid of an expert if the findings do not meet certain needs.
But obviously I have to go with the evidence of experts I suppose in this matter. :notes:
He was arrested in 2002 and diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder compounded with depression in 2008. Six years after his arrest. He was born in 1966 so if my maths are correct it took 42 to come to that diagnosis?
Sorry but it is in my nature to be cynical when a person suddenly develops something that it would seem even his Mother did not know he had, after being charged with a very serious crime. But sometimes even the Government gets rid of an expert if the findings do not meet certain needs.
But obviously I have to go with the evidence of experts I suppose in this matter. :notes:
Hamza has Briish Citizenship.....
You're all heart star....
At long last, the British government has told the US to go fuck themselves and in this case, rightly so to the extent that the extradition treaty with the US has also been changed.
Whether or not Mr McKinnon will face a British court remains to be seen. It is for the DPP to decide.
The treaty was always very much one sided and in my humble view, it is right and proper that his appeal against extradition was successful. Previous Home Secretaries have fudged the issue for far too long. His 10 year fight for justice, which in my view would not have been served by his extradition, is thankfully over.
If the US have such weak password control over such sensitive data, it is all fool them. They should be grateful that it was drawn to their attention by a 'friendly' intrusion rather than by the forces of evil which it could so easily have been.
I am old enough to remember 'squeaky-da-mouse' and his friend who hacked the private mailbox of the Duke of Edinburgh in 1984 and whilst they were fined not very much, if only because they wanted to make an example of them, they exposed a massive open back door to BT's Prestel system.
Can you honestly say star that if you were passing an open door somewhere unusual, you wouldn't be tempted to look inside?
You're all heart star....
At long last, the British government has told the US to go fuck themselves and in this case, rightly so to the extent that the extradition treaty with the US has also been changed.
Whether or not Mr McKinnon will face a British court remains to be seen. It is for the DPP to decide.
The treaty was always very much one sided and in my humble view, it is right and proper that his appeal against extradition was successful. Previous Home Secretaries have fudged the issue for far too long. His 10 year fight for justice, which in my view would not have been served by his extradition, is thankfully over.
If the US have such weak password control over such sensitive data, it is all fool them. They should be grateful that it was drawn to their attention by a 'friendly' intrusion rather than by the forces of evil which it could so easily have been.
I am old enough to remember 'squeaky-da-mouse' and his friend who hacked the private mailbox of the Duke of Edinburgh in 1984 and whilst they were fined not very much, if only because they wanted to make an example of them, they exposed a massive open back door to BT's Prestel system.
Can you honestly say star that if you were passing an open door somewhere unusual, you wouldn't be tempted to look inside?
Quote by GnV
Hamza has Briish Citizenship.....
You're all heart star....
At long last, the British government has told the US to go fuck themselves and in this case, rightly so to the extent that the extradition treaty with the US has also been changed.
Whether or not Mr McKinnon will face a British court remains to be seen. It is for the DPP to decide.
The treaty was always very much one sided and in my humble view, it is right and proper that his appeal against extradition was successful. Previous Home Secretaries have fudged the issue for far too long. His 10 year fight for justice, which in my view would not have been served by his extradition, is thankfully over.
If the US have such weak password control over such sensitive data, it is all fool them. They should be grateful that it was drawn to their attention by a 'friendly' intrusion rather than by the forces of evil which it could so easily have been.
I am old enough to remember 'squeaky-da-mouse' and his friend who hacked the private mailbox of the Duke of Edinburgh in 1984 and whilst they were fined not very much, if only because they wanted to make an example of them, they exposed a massive open back door to BT's Prestel system.
Can you honestly say star that if you were passing an open door somewhere unusual, you wouldn't be tempted to look inside?
Great post GnV
:thumbup:
And why not flower?
The hook used it to very good effect to stall his extradition to the US and there is no reason why Mr McKinnon should not have done so legally either.
I heard it said on the news conference today (I think by Shami Chakrabati of Liberty) that if the human rights act had not been in place in this case, Mr McKinnon could well have found himself being extradited.
Well done Europe!
The hook used it to very good effect to stall his extradition to the US and there is no reason why Mr McKinnon should not have done so legally either.
I heard it said on the news conference today (I think by Shami Chakrabati of Liberty) that if the human rights act had not been in place in this case, Mr McKinnon could well have found himself being extradited.
Well done Europe!
Quote by GnV
You're all heart star....
Sorry GnV I thought the OP had asked.
Quote by Flower411
I am genuinely interested in peoples opinions on this
Or was he only asking opinions that everyone was in agreement with
Ok GnV seeing as you have a different opinion to me, do you not think it a bit odd that a person can be diagnosed at 42, with an illness that was so bad he could not be extradited? I mean surely his Mother must have known he was ill? If she did why was he not diagnosed earlier? It seems he was only diagnosed as a damn good argument to use in his extradition case.
Sex God
Quote by starlightcouple
You're all heart star....
Sorry GnV I thought the OP had asked.
Quote by Flower411
I am genuinely interested in peoples opinions on this
Or was he only asking opinions that everyone was in agreement with
Ok GnV seeing as you have a different opinion to me, do you not think it a bit odd that a person can be diagnosed at 42, with an illness that was so bad he could not be extradited? I mean surely his Mother must have known he was ill? If she did why was he not diagnosed earlier? It seems he was only diagnosed as a damn good argument to use in his extradition case.
i gather it would all depend on exactly what he see when he hacked the US computers
and of course also if he could do it again :wink: :wink:
Quote by GnV
Can you honestly say star that if you were passing an open door somewhere unusual, you wouldn't be tempted to look inside?
A bit of a strange thing to say GnV, but curiosity GnV can get you in a whole heap of trouble, and I can honestly say that no I would not have on the balance of probabilities.
Had it been Mr McKinnion walking past he would have gone in and unlocked the safe, and then people would have blamed the company for leaving the door open, and making the code for the safe too easy and offered him a job in the bank of England, for that is the same scenario.
Quote by flower411
And why not flower?
Cos I think English law should be able to stop injustice ...
I lived in France for 9 years so probably puts us on par
One of my friends once "accused" me of being too British !!I told him that no matter how much I enjoyed the French way of life I`d always be British .....no shame in that ...
Remaining British while holding respect for the French is normal for any intelligent person living in France .
:thumbup:
It was however European legislation that did it...
Quote by starlightcouple
Can you honestly say star that if you were passing an open door somewhere unusual, you wouldn't be tempted to look inside?
A bit of a strange thing to say GnV, but curiosity GnV can get you in a whole heap of trouble, and I can honestly say that no I would not have on the balance of probabilities.
Had it been Mr McKinnion walking past he would have gone in and unlocked the safe, and then people would have blamed the company for leaving the door open, and making the code for the safe too easy and offered him a job in the bank of England, for that is the same scenario.
You do't admit to being curious then star....
Your profile suggests differently :lol2:
Quote by starlightcouple
You're all heart star....
Sorry GnV I thought the OP had asked.
Quote by Flower411
I am genuinely interested in peoples opinions on this
Or was he only asking opinions that everyone was in agreement with
Ok GnV seeing as you have a different opinion to me, do you not think it a bit odd that a person can be diagnosed at 42, with an illness that was so bad he could not be extradited? I mean surely his Mother must have known he was ill? If she did why was he not diagnosed earlier? It seems he was only diagnosed as a damn good argument to use in his extradition case.
And your point actually is, star?
I think the medical evidence is somewhat different.
Sex God
this guy is far to talented to be shipped off to the states end of 
Quote by GnV
And your point actually is, star?
My point could not have been made any clearer. Is it not just a little bit odd, this sudden diagnosis at his age, after of course being arrested for a serious crime? Also his Mother not seeming to know either? Just a thought
Quote by GnV
I think the medical evidence is somewhat different.
Well Hamza used medical stuff to thwart his extradition at the 12th hour and his was turned down as not being basically believed.
As a complete cynical person, I wonder if behind closed doors a deal was put together to extradite Hamza in exchange for no extradition in this case? Stranger things have happened in politics, behind those big closed doors.
Sex God
Does this mean that human rights legislation can be a good thing and is something we should embrace ?
How galling for her, having to rely on Article 3 of the despised HRA she's pledged to scrap to stop it!
I note she's ensured she will never have so onerous a duty as appealing to the HRA placed on her again in future now she's handed off the Home Sec's powers to decide on extraditions to the courts. Must really have hurt her! Home Sec's aren't exactly known for volunteering to give away their powers, are they? :P 
Sex God
It is in fact fairly common for people to be diagnosed with aspergers later on in life. I know of a number of highly functioning adults who have been diagnosed in last few years, all over 40.
I am not sure why it is more likely to be picked up now, but I would guess, from my experience of growing us as a care giver to someone with severe learning disabilities and watching the struggles we had with his diagnosis and care, that it is no small part simply due to scientific and medical advancement. 20 odd years ago, there wasn't a clear picture of such syndromes and more is learnt of them every day. Upon his arrest, Gary McKinnon has spent time with doctors and experts that he wouldn't have before, who have had time to assess and diagnose his condition.
Unless - you are seriously suggesting that the medical profession has lied or tricked people - then that would be why it has been picked up now and not years ago when he was in his youth.
I am not sure why it is more likely to be picked up now, but I would guess, from my experience of growing us as a care giver to someone with severe learning disabilities and watching the struggles we had with his diagnosis and care, that it is no small part simply due to scientific and medical advancement. 20 odd years ago, there wasn't a clear picture of such syndromes and more is learnt of them every day. Upon his arrest, Gary McKinnon has spent time with doctors and experts that he wouldn't have before, who have had time to assess and diagnose his condition.
Unless - you are seriously suggesting that the medical profession has lied or tricked people - then that would be why it has been picked up now and not years ago when he was in his youth.
Sex God
Quote by mistress_sassy
I am not sure why it is more likely to be picked up now, but I would guess, from my experience of growing us as a care giver to someone with severe learning disabilities and watching the struggles we had with his diagnosis and care, that it is no small part simply due to scientific and medical advancement. 20 odd years ago, there wasn't a clear picture of such syndromes and more is learnt of them every day. Upon his arrest, Gary McKinnon has spent time with doctors and experts that he wouldn't have before, who have had time to assess and diagnose his condition.
:thumbup:
Having had first hand experience of living with a child who suffered with Aspergers and the pitch battle that was had in order to get someone who knew what they were talking about to make a formal diagnosis (and this has been within the last 10yrs) I totally agree...
Quote by star
Well Hamza used medical stuff to thwart his extradition at the 12th hour and his was turned down as not being basically believed.
In the light of the two postings above, would you care to change your opinion star?
It expressed either a somewhat bigoted view of people with certain disabilities or a shocking lack of humanity
Quote by GnV
In the light of the two postings above, would you care to change your opinion star?
The two postings above GnV I know nothing about at all, and am not here to comment on other peoples contact with any other sufferer, on any form of ASD. This thread is about a widely published case that has been in the public domain for nearly ten years.
If you were to do just a touch of homework you will indeed see that in so many cases ASD is almost impossible to diagnose. In many cases the person does not even know they have any disorder at all. The list of ASD symptoms could apply to almost anyone at some point or another in their lives. Nowadays everyone has to be pigeon holed into a nice neat little descriptive box.
Whether he does or does not have ASD is irrelevant in this case. The only thing that Ms May acted on was the ' possibility ' that he could commit suicide if sent to the USA. If that is a correct judgement then that is fine, but he will not commit suicide if still in the UK. So I believe that as he knew perfectly well what he was doing was wrong, and understood the implications of getting caught for doing something wrong, then he should stand trial over here just like me and you would have to.
That I believe will now not happen after Ms May's address to the House yesterday as clever lawyers will use her argument to acquit him of all charges leveled at him. That is wrong in my book.
The wide ranging symptoms of ASD are so wide that even the experts fail to diagnose it properly, so cynicism plays a part for me in this particular case.
Quote by GnV
It expressed either a somewhat bigoted view of people with certain disabilities or a shocking lack of humanity
ASD is not classed as a disability GnV, and had you done a bit more research you would have seen that. It in many cases is a disorder. I see you used a wink there and understand why. So many people use the bigot word against anyone who does not fall in line with certain people's own thoughts and feelings. That in itself is wrong also, and those very same people also fall into the bigoted category.
' Some researchers and people with Asperger's have advocated a shift in attitudes toward the view that it is a difference, rather than a disability that must be treated or cured '.
This explains things very clearly GnV./....have a read and ye shall learn.
Oh and btw GnV, have a browse around and see if you can see where the word ' solo ' comes from in this case, and how and why it was used.
I wish you could make your mind up star....
and then...
Maybe it's my age, but I do get confused by you vacillating from one view to another in the same thread sometimes :doh:
BTW, you might like to read this reference which explores the theory between disability and difference.
Quote by star
do you not think it a bit odd that a person can be diagnosed at 42, with an illness that was so bad he could not be extradited? I mean surely his Mother must have known he was ill? If she did why was he not diagnosed earlier? It seems he was only diagnosed as a damn good argument to use in his extradition case.
Quote by star
If you were to do just a touch of homework you will indeed see that in so many cases ASD is almost impossible to diagnose. In many cases the person does not even know they have any disorder at all.
and then...
Quote by star
No sorry I think he should have been extradited.
Quote by star
.....then he should stand trial over here just like me and you would have to.
Maybe it's my age, but I do get confused by you vacillating from one view to another in the same thread sometimes :doh:
BTW, you might like to read this reference which explores the theory between disability and difference.
Sex God
Quote by starlightcouple
So I believe that as he knew perfectly well what he was doing was wrong, and understood the implications of getting caught for doing something wrong, then he should stand trial over here just like me and you would have to.
In many cases those with Aspergers have no concept of "right" and "wrong" and if they are interested in a particular thing they will pursue that interest with a dedication that many a person would be proud of...
Quote by GnV
I wish you could make your mind up star....
I have Gnv.
Quote by star
do you not think it a bit odd that a person can be diagnosed at 42, with an illness that was so bad he could not be extradited? I mean surely his Mother must have known he was ill? If she did why was he not diagnosed earlier? It seems he was only diagnosed as a damn good argument to use in his extradition case.
I think the age is very relevant here, do you not think? I mean we are not talking about a child, but an adult. As far as I am aware, his Mother had not even had him diagnosed for anything before his arrest. Is that not slightly odd? I mean he on occasions it would seem has shown classic ASD symptoms.
Quote by star
If you were to do just a touch of homework you will indeed see that in so many cases ASD is almost impossible to diagnose. In many cases the person does not even know they have any disorder at all.
That is also correct, but each case is obviously taken on an individual case background. But yes in many cases, and there is the word that you fail to see. If I had said in all cases there is a subtle difference.
and then...
Quote by star
No sorry I think he should have been extradited.
Yes he should have stood trial in the country where the crimes were against, the US.
Quote by star
.....then he should stand trial over here just like me and you would have to.
But now that is not going to happen then the next order is for him to stand trial over here. There are three ways of dealing with this. Send him to the US to stand trial, and that is now not going to happen. Make him stand trial in the UK for his crimes, or if that is not going to happen then to drop all charges. My views have always been to extradite him to the US to face the charges, but then Ms May stopped that extradition. The next steps are to either get him to stand trial here or drop the charges, of which I do not want to see happen. As you are well aware my comments were a before the extradition had been stopped and my comments after. Obviously it seems you are not grasping the basics here GnV. Is that possibly a bit clearer for you?
Quote by star
Maybe it's my age, but I do get confused by you vacillating from one view to another in the same thread sometimes :doh:
Well as you looked at my profile only yesterday, I just looked at yours and came to the conclusion that yes it is indeed your age. Age discrimination is that a part of the AUP as well?
Quote by star
BTW, you might like to read this reference which explores the theory between disability and difference.
No will not bother if you do not mind as I took that reference from a reliable source, and also it says exactly that in a ASD web site. An ASD sufferer is not disabled, just different. Also many ( not all) do not want to be labeled disabled and I for one would go along with the people who have ASD and their thoughts rather than a so called expert.
And the word ' solo ' GnV ?
Quote by Steve
So I believe that as he knew perfectly well what he was doing was wrong, and understood the implications of getting caught for doing something wrong, then he should stand trial over here just like me and you would have to.
In many cases those with Aspergers have no concept of "right" and "wrong" and if they are interested in a particular thing they will pursue that interest with a dedication that many a person would be proud of...
That may well be true in some cases Steve but we are not talking about other cases, we are talking about Gary Mckinnon, who btw admitted at the start that he knew what he was doing was wrong. He may well have not known about the possible extradition laws, who would have?
But the bottom line is in this particular case, he knew the difference between right and wrong, and so you cannot use that as an argument for him. The extradition case that followed of course he would not have thought about that at the time, and neither would I have, but the fact remains he knew what he was doing was wrong. If a person could have proved differently, there would have been no case to answer from the start, would there?
Quote by flower411
There seems to be a lot of conjecture here involving things that are merely hearsay.
We have no idea whether or not he has admitted he knew that he was doing wrong when he hacked into the Nasa computers.
Er I think it has by his very own legal team.
' It was also usually overlooked that the unauthorised access (ie the offence) had been actually admitted by McKinnon's legal team (so it was likely to be no issue to be tried). His legal team even indicated that he may also admit the damage as well as the unauthorised access'.
Read this link and all will become clear. He has not admitted anything as he has not stood trial...yet. But he has spoken to his lawyers who have stated this many times.
Pretty clear even to me.
' First, the contention that all McKinnon was doing was looking for evidence extraterrestrial life had no basis in the legal case. UFOs played no part in the litigation whatsoever. The UFO explanation was never provided by McKinnon or his legal team in the court cases. In fact, McKinnon's original case was that his motives were political and he contended that political opinions should be taken so seriously that he should not be allowed to be extradited on those grounds alone '.
There are of course other examples of his lawyers views but really cannot be bothered to search. It is on public record.
Sex God
Quote by starlightcouple
So I believe that as he knew perfectly well what he was doing was wrong, and understood the implications of getting caught for doing something wrong, then he should stand trial over here just like me and you would have to.
In many cases those with Aspergers have no concept of "right" and "wrong" and if they are interested in a particular thing they will pursue that interest with a dedication that many a person would be proud of...
That may well be true in some cases Steve but we are not talking about other cases, we are talking about Gary Mckinnon, who btw admitted at the start that he knew what he was doing was wrong. He may well have not known about the possible extradition laws, who would have?
But the bottom line is in this particular case, he knew the difference between right and wrong, and so you cannot use that as an argument for him. The extradition case that followed of course he would not have thought about that at the time, and neither would I have, but the fact remains he knew what he was doing was wrong.If a person could have proved differently, there would have been no case to answer from the start, would there?
No doubt there would have been those that argued differently...
Sex God
Quote by starlightcouple
In the light of the two postings above, would you care to change your opinion star?
Quote by GnV
It expressed either a somewhat bigoted view of people with certain disabilities or a shocking lack of humanity
ASD is not classed as a disability GnV, and had you done a bit more research you would have seen that. It in many cases is a disorder.
' Some researchers and people with Asperger's have advocated a shift in attitudes toward the view that it is a difference, rather than a disability that must be treated or cured '.
This explains things very clearly GnV./....have a read and ye shall learn.
Aspergers is actually a form of autism. ASD, or Autistic Spectrum Disorder is actually a little different to Aspergers. Either way however, both can potentially be classified as a disability under the legal definition and as such reasonable adjustments at work can be applied for and potentially benefits claimed.
Not to pick further argument, but I also take exception to your description of treating aspergers "as a difference" rather than a disability "that must be treated or cured". Disabilities do not need to be treated and cured. Many, if not most in fact can't be - I am not sure we have yet figured out how to 'cure' a paraplegic or give a blind person sight!
Neither Aspergers, nor autism, mental health problems, learning disabilities, blindness, deafness, wheelchair users, amputees, and on and on and on.... necessarily need to be cured nor treated. Indeed, most of them would also like it, if in fact they were just categorised as 'different' and lived in a society where they were not 'disabled' only different. Rather they are in fact 'disabled' by societies limitations (access issues, prejudice etc) and as such need access to medical care, adjustments, benefits and so on and hence, are in fact all categorised as 'disabled'.
For a more reliable source of information, why not try
Quote by flower411
Don`t think star is interested in reliable sources of information !!
Well you asked for peoples opinions on the subject and I gave mine. I also provided links that I believe support another view. If in future you want people to give their opinions, don't try to be a clever know it all by saying I am not interested in providing reliable sources. I am interested to know from YOU what source I have given that is not reliable?
Quote by flower411
He just looks for links that he believes support his muddled perceptions of reality at any particular moment.
I shall ask again to provide me with the links that support my muddled perceptions.
In future don't ask for others opinions as you might not get any. :twisted:
Oh and as an aside, what part of this is untrue or muddled?
Also the bit where it clearly states. ' Some researchers and people with Asperger's have advocated a shift in attitudes toward the view that it is a difference, rather than a disability that must be treated or cured '.
Maybe it is a recent shift in in attitudes, that is confusing people? I shall wait your reply with the greatest of interest,,,,not.
Oh and I quickly found another link that supports the same views. 2 million views in 30 days, it must be a bit alright surely?
It states exactly the same thing, read the 3rd paragraph! Now I do not want to sound a know it all but if this is true, maybe it is you that does not recognise a reliable source? At the front of this web site it clearly states 'Website Ranked #1 for Autism Spectrum Disorders'
If that is indeed true it kinda blows your comments out of the water.
Sex God
Well relying on Wiki to substantiate any claim/opinion is a backward step to start with....
Quote by flower411
Star ...
Any attempts that people make to explain to you that many of your links do not actually support your views fall on deaf ears ..
You are so convinced that you are right about everything that it is pointless anybody explaining when you are wrong because you fail to understand even the simplest of explanations.
Even when people take the time to quote your inconsistancies and outright contradictions you still deny that they are there although they are staring you in the face.
Personally I don`t find wikipedia to be a reliable source of information and yes I did ask for other peoples opinions because I was interested in hearing them but frankly I am completely uninterested in your constant attempts to browbeat people into agreeing with your opinions .....
And most of all I am totally bored with your tedious attempts to convince people that you are right when they repeatedly show that you contradict yourself over and over again.
Fair enough.
Can you show me the links that I have given that are muddled and support my perceptions?
I showed you a web site that apparently is the webs no 1 on ASD and backs up what it stated on the Wiki web link. Is that wrong then because it does not support your or anyone else's view point? If it is the worlds no 1 site has that no bearing at all? They are automatically wrong and also have muddled perceptions with reality on Aspergers? Why on earth would that be?
