General election - 6th May | Swinging Heaven

12 Apr 2010

Quote by easy
Amen to that Freck.
You are entitled to that beleief blue many people believe the same and will remember too late.
Stop being a pedant max it does nothing to add to the debate and makes you look foolish.

Hmm and here's me thinking it was awayman being the pedant.
No, I'm being accurate where you appear to be cutting and pasting stuff you haven't even read.
*friendly mod note*
While the debate appears to have returned to the discussion in hand I just wanted to offer some guidance.
To everyone, but particularly those of you quoted above, please keep your personal opinions about others actions to yourselves and do not engage in name-calling and one-upmanship.
You're all old enough and bright enough to debate your points in a reasonable and rational way, so there should be no need for you to lower yourselves to blowing cyber-raspberrys at each other.
Thanks.
Where are the mods when people are calling me and my friends turds, thieves and crooks?

12 Apr 2010

Quote by awayman
Amen to that Freck.
You are entitled to that beleief blue many people believe the same and will remember too late.
Stop being a pedant max it does nothing to add to the debate and makes you look foolish.

Hmm and here's me thinking it was awayman being the pedant.
No, I'm being accurate where you appear to be cutting and pasting stuff you haven't even read.
*friendly mod note*
While the debate appears to have returned to the discussion in hand I just wanted to offer some guidance.
To everyone, but particularly those of you quoted above, please keep your personal opinions about others actions to yourselves and do not engage in name-calling and one-upmanship.
You're all old enough and bright enough to debate your points in a reasonable and rational way, so there should be no need for you to lower yourselves to blowing cyber-raspberrys at each other.
Thanks.
Where are the mods when people are calling me and my friends turds, thieves and crooks?
It has been dealt with. If you have a further complaint then please contact admin by pressing "Contact Us" and it will be looked at
Dave_Notts

12 Apr 2010

WOW - the first time a post that I have put up has gone to 7 pages! Thanks to all who have contributed. Two points:
1) I hate the continued reference to "class". We in this country have always had a different view on who is "working class" compared to others. When we say "Upper class" we tend to refer to the traditional upper class on yesteryear - the nobility and gentry. In "Middle Class" we include many very skilled people from the professions e.g medical doctors who really ought to be in the higher grading and we use "Working Class" to refer to the rest of us. We refer to a skilled engineer or a plumber as working class whereas they are really middle class by my definition.
2) Agree with the comment about threads - I wish the Site Admin would impose a maximum of say 3 or perhaps 4 posts that can go on the same sub-thread.
Plim :sad:

12 Apr 2010

Quote by Ben_welshminx
Amen to that Freck.
You are entitled to that beleief blue many people believe the same and will remember too late.
Stop being a pedant max it does nothing to add to the debate and makes you look foolish.

Er, what did i say? dunno

12 Apr 2010

Maybe it is a pet name for someone.....I wonder who? lol

12 Apr 2010

Quote by awayman
Amen to that Freck.
You are entitled to that beleief blue many people believe the same and will remember too late.
Stop being a pedant max it does nothing to add to the debate and makes you look foolish.

Hmm and here's me thinking it was awayman being the pedant.
No, I'm being accurate where you appear to be cutting and pasting stuff you haven't even read.
*friendly mod note*
While the debate appears to have returned to the discussion in hand I just wanted to offer some guidance.
To everyone, but particularly those of you quoted above, please keep your personal opinions about others actions to yourselves and do not engage in name-calling and one-upmanship.
You're all old enough and bright enough to debate your points in a reasonable and rational way, so there should be no need for you to lower yourselves to blowing cyber-raspberrys at each other.
Thanks.
Where are the mods when people are calling me and my friends turds, thieves and crooks?
If we are talking of councils, we all know we can not tar them all with the same brush, I have friends who work for the council.
But it has become undeniable that they are no longer serving the public as I believe they should be. Certain elements have become pissed on there own power. I have had a run in with elements of our local Council and they are difficult to deal with and very over powering.
Storeys of people being harassed over Council tax abound, and they are just the tip of the ice berg.
I feel the way politicians have been behaving have rubbed off on the hierarchy of the Councils.

12 Apr 2010

sorry freck I meant foxy.

12 Apr 2010

Quote by Ben_welshminx
sorry freck I meant foxy.

Ah, OK. No worries smile

13 Apr 2010

Quote by Bluefish2009
Why is there an assumption that the left will mourn the passing of this government??
I for one will be glad to see the back of them....though sorry to see the tories back in power (if it happens).A heavy electoral defeat will hopefully push the labour party back to the left and give the working classes a real alternative to rule by and for the I'm honest though I suspect they will move further right to try and regain the selfish vote

I am working class, I think, I have always worked for others until 13 months ago when I decided enough was enough and started my own business. Yet I find myself more aligned with the Torys than any other party.
And that's your prerogative. I think you're probably wrong,that's I have always felt that one should vote for the party that would be best for the majority of the country.......There is a quote from Kurt Vonnegut (that I cannot find) I shall paraphrase.....-communism is where everyone works for everyone else,capitalism is where everyone works for a few people....both fail,I know which I'd rather fail trying to do-....a wise man Mr Vonnegut
P.S. if anyone can refresh my memory about the poorly paraphrased quote an it's origins I'd be very grateful

13 Apr 2010

Quote by Kaznkev
Why is there an assumption that the left will mourn the passing of this government??
I for one will be glad to see the back of them....though sorry to see the tories back in power (if it happens).A heavy electoral defeat will hopefully push the labour party back to the left and give the working classes a real alternative to rule by and for the I'm honest though I suspect they will move further right to try and regain the selfish vote

I am working class, I think, I have always worked for others until 13 months ago when I decided enough was enough and started my own business. Yet I find myself more aligned with the Torys than any other party.
And that's your prerogative. I think you're probably wrong,that's I have always felt that one should vote for the party that would be best for the majority of the country.......There is a quote from Kurt Vonnegut (that I cannot find) I shall paraphrase.....-communism is where everyone works for everyone else,capitalism is where everyone works for a few people....both fail,I know which I'd rather fail trying to do-....a wise man Mr Vonnegut
P.S. if anyone can refresh my memory about the poorly paraphrased quote an it's origins I'd be very grateful
i knew there was a reason i was your friend,you are a fan of Vonnegut,i think its cats cradle, i will google, but it reminds me of what i have told kev i want on my tombstone,
Everything was beautiful,and none of it hurt
I'd have gone with 'so it goes'

13 Apr 2010

Slaughterhouse Five, or Breakfast of Champions?
lp

13 Apr 2010

I feel the way politicians have been behaving have rubbed off on the hierarchy of the Councils

No.
The way companies have been behaving over the years has rubbed-off on councils because they have enlisted the senior management of same as "senior management" of council.
Basically, the guy/gal who treated the workers with contempt is now the CEO of council. And earning LOADS of dosh for doing the same as they did when working in private industry...but with much greater security and bigger golden handshake when they come/leave.
"we" just got rid of one, who has gone to another council for more money (over £300,000 a year) after getting the "golden cash-backstab" from our council. Although why another council would employ someone shown to be useless is probably another story.

13 Apr 2010

Quote by Staggerlee_BB
Why is there an assumption that the left will mourn the passing of this government??
I for one will be glad to see the back of them....though sorry to see the tories back in power (if it happens).A heavy electoral defeat will hopefully push the labour party back to the left and give the working classes a real alternative to rule by and for the I'm honest though I suspect they will move further right to try and regain the selfish vote

I am working class, I think, I have always worked for others until 13 months ago when I decided enough was enough and started my own business. Yet I find myself more aligned with the Torys than any other party.
And that's your prerogative. I think you're probably wrong,that's I have always felt that one should vote for the party that would be best for the majority of the country.......There is a quote from Kurt Vonnegut (that I cannot find) I shall paraphrase.....-communism is where everyone works for everyone else,capitalism is where everyone works for a few people....both fail,I know which I'd rather fail trying to do-....a wise man Mr Vonnegut
P.S. if anyone can refresh my memory about the poorly paraphrased quote an it's origins I'd be very grateful
I understand that, what you say does make perfect sense until people abuse the systems put in place to help others. I have been lucky to have been never out of work, but when I come home from work to see the same people sat outside in the sunshine with a barby going and drinking larger, with all their mate round, night after night, too the early hours, I start to wonder what is going on. They have no job, I have one, yet can not afford to do what they do. I don't mind the government helping single parent and none working family's along, but when they are getting a better standard of living than some one who works hard, surely that is wrong? I feel they are doing that at my children's expence.
I watched a program (there was a thread here about it) the other day where a couple, both out of work, with 5 children were bring in over £30, of government help, well who is going to give up that to get a lower paid job? I do not earn that much, I am being taxed to pay many people in that situation, therefore that is happening at my children's expense.

13 Apr 2010

Quote by Bluefish2009
Why is there an assumption that the left will mourn the passing of this government??
I for one will be glad to see the back of them....though sorry to see the tories back in power (if it happens).A heavy electoral defeat will hopefully push the labour party back to the left and give the working classes a real alternative to rule by and for the I'm honest though I suspect they will move further right to try and regain the selfish vote

I am working class, I think, I have always worked for others until 13 months ago when I decided enough was enough and started my own business. Yet I find myself more aligned with the Torys than any other party.
And that's your prerogative. I think you're probably wrong,that's I have always felt that one should vote for the party that would be best for the majority of the country.......There is a quote from Kurt Vonnegut (that I cannot find) I shall paraphrase.....-communism is where everyone works for everyone else,capitalism is where everyone works for a few people....both fail,I know which I'd rather fail trying to do-....a wise man Mr Vonnegut
P.S. if anyone can refresh my memory about the poorly paraphrased quote an it's origins I'd be very grateful
I understand that, what you say does make perfect sense until people abuse the systems put in place to help others. I have been lucky to have been never out of work, but when I come home from work to see the same people sat outside in the sunshine with a barby going and drinking larger, with all their mate round, night after night, too the early hours, I start to wonder what is going on. They have no job, I have one, yet can not afford to do what they do. I don't mind the government helping single parent and none working family's along, but when they are getting a better standard of living than some one who works hard, surely that is wrong? I feel they are doing that at my children's expence.
I watched a program (there was a thread here about it) the other day where a couple, both out of work, with 5 children were bring in over £30, of government help, well who is going to give up that to get a lower paid job? I do not earn that much, I am being taxed to pay many people in that situation, therefore that is happening at my children's expense.
I'm in a similar situation my job is poorly paid many people around me are unemployed and seemingly in possession of more disposable income than me...there are also people around me struggling on benefits..all i can say is that just because a system is abused doesn't make it wrong, if people abuse the system then that's a matter for the law and their conscience and not mine.
P.S. if you're looking for far more expensive abuse of a system look at tax avoidance/evasion....non of the main parties will address this...you don't bite the hand that feeds you

13 Apr 2010

Stag and Blue can I thank you both for such an intelligent and moderate debate.

13 Apr 2010

Quote by Staggerlee_BB
I'm in a similar situation my job is poorly paid many people around me are unemployed and seemingly in possession of more disposable income than me...there are also people around me struggling on benefits..all i can say is that just because a system is abused doesn't make it wrong, if people abuse the system then that's a matter for the law and their conscience and not mine.

Some people have no problems with their conscience, this story will make the blood boil of any normal hardworking person who is struggling to keep their head above water in the current financial climate.
Just ignore the fact you are clicking onto the DM website as you take a deep breath and prepared to be shocked.

13 Apr 2010

I don't know what people should consider to be right. To either vote for what would be good for all or good for themselves. I think most people attempt to consider the bigger picture, but rely on more personal values if the gut instinct creeps in.
we don't have a new 'leader' from what i can see. I think we brits tend to swing massively towards the party which has a new leader. the chancellor is usually the runner up who gets a short stay to clean up the administrative errors, after the leader has finished being in the spotlight. brown has done that, albeit somewhat hopelessly.
not this time, not yet, we just don't have a real runner out there yet.

13 Apr 2010

Quote by swcpl2005

I'm in a similar situation my job is poorly paid many people around me are unemployed and seemingly in possession of more disposable income than me...there are also people around me struggling on benefits..all i can say is that just because a system is abused doesn't make it wrong, if people abuse the system then that's a matter for the law and their conscience and not mine.

Some people have no problems with their conscience, this story will make the blood boil of any normal hardworking person who is struggling to keep their head above water in the current financial climate.
Just ignore the fact you are clicking onto the DM website as you take a deep breath and prepared to be shocked.

The trouble is this family are NOT alone.
HE should be FORCED yes Forced to get up off his lazy arse and do what most other decent hard working people do, and get a fecking job. All this rubbish about he cannot afford to go to work as the benefit system pays him more, is just one on many things wrong in this country.
For so many people being on benefits is a lifestyle choice, and the sooner the welfare system is looked at seriously, then this kind of piss taking will continue.
Nice to know we are footing the bill for him and his brood, whilst people like my Daughter cannot afford to have a child, as they cannot afford to lose one wage. As I told her " have eight kids and then you can live a life of Riley ".

13 Apr 2010

Quote by Staggerlee_BB
I'm in a similar situation my job is poorly paid many people around me are unemployed and seemingly in possession of more disposable income than me...there are also people around me struggling on benefits..all i can say is that just because a system is abused doesn't make it wrong, if people abuse the system then that's a matter for the law and their conscience and not mine.
P.S. if you're looking for far more expensive abuse of a system look at tax avoidance/evasion....non of the main parties will address this...you don't bite the hand that feeds you

I can not really disagree with any thing you have said, particularly the tax evasion. Only would add that I feel it is not just a matter for the law, and their conscience, I feel it is for the people who implement such benefit schemes to make it more difficult for people to do what Swcpl2005 have highlighted above.
Unlike yourself though I do feel it is a concern of mine, as it is my money they are steeling, the more who are aloud to abuse the system, the more we pay in tax.
Thanks Ben, I feel even when people have opposite opinions, mud slinging and insults do little to help find some middle ground.

13 Apr 2010

Quote by swcpl2005

I'm in a similar situation my job is poorly paid many people around me are unemployed and seemingly in possession of more disposable income than me...there are also people around me struggling on benefits..all i can say is that just because a system is abused doesn't make it wrong, if people abuse the system then that's a matter for the law and their conscience and not mine.

Some people have no problems with their conscience, this story will make the blood boil of any normal hardworking person who is struggling to keep their head above water in the current financial climate.
Just ignore the fact you are clicking onto the DM website as you take a deep breath and prepared to be shocked.

it doesn`t make me boil any more it make`s me think how lucky i was to find the accountant that i did
every penny he saves me gets more justified by the day and with his latest stroke of genius i`ll be taking more back than i give in :small-print:

13 Apr 2010

Seems like a general improvement in things.
A few months ago its was terrorists who were getting houses in Bayswater and 100,000 a year in benefits.

13 Apr 2010

Quote by duncanlondon
Seems like a general improvement in things.
A few months ago its was terrorists who were getting houses in Bayswater and 100,000 a year in benefits.

are we talking hamza the cleric or hamza the footballer lol

13 Apr 2010

Quote by swcpl2005
Some people have no problems with their conscience, this story will make the blood boil of any normal hardworking person who is struggling to keep their head above water in the current financial climate.
Just ignore the fact you are clicking onto the DM website as you take a deep breath and prepared to be shocked.

Erm . . . .swcpl? As a normal hardworking person who is struggling to keep their head above water in the current financial climate, who knows damn well that there's always too much month left at the end of the overdraft, I have to say my blood's not actually boiling all that much? My breathing seems normal. My outrage levels are at pretty much nominal levels, despite the best efforts of the Daily Bleedin' Hate, despite a piss poor day at work trying to keep my boss's business going for the paltry sum of money I get paid for my efforts in the niche area of the steel industry I work in . . .
No doubt I've missed something crucial, so let me ask you what is the breakdown exactly of carer's allowances, mobility allowances, whatever, given that one of the kids in question ((( i.e. ))) is likely to die from a disease before he's 30? I dunno anything about the disease, but you can check the links. It's the same kid.
How long have his parents been getting this alleged 42 grand a year exactly, cos that kid looks a fairly young bairn to me? Is this 42 grand a year what your average feckless wannabe Mercedes driver gets, and is there a proper break-down of where all this money gets spent on these useless fuckwits? Is there a possibility of something over and above the norm going on here? dunno

Maybe the Daily Mail could tell us all that, if it could be even remotely arsed, and didn't have an agenda all of its own? confused

N x x x ;)

13 Apr 2010

well I can think of many people who 'earn' those kind of incomes or more who don't actually do that much to get it. they are simply parasites in organisations. their salary is paid for in the excessive profiteering which the consumer has to pay.
so in many cases i can't see that someone in that role is any different from someone on the dole.

13 Apr 2010

Quote by Bluefish2009
I'm in a similar situation my job is poorly paid many people around me are unemployed and seemingly in possession of more disposable income than me...there are also people around me struggling on benefits..all i can say is that just because a system is abused doesn't make it wrong, if people abuse the system then that's a matter for the law and their conscience and not mine.
P.S. if you're looking for far more expensive abuse of a system look at tax avoidance/evasion....non of the main parties will address this...you don't bite the hand that feeds you

I can not really disagree with any thing you have said, particularly the tax evasion. Only would add that I feel it is not just a matter for the law, and their conscience, I feel it is for the people who implement such benefit schemes to make it more difficult for people to do what Swcpl2005 have highlighted above.
Unlike yourself though I do feel it is a concern of mine, as it is my money they are steeling, the more who are aloud to abuse the system, the more we pay in tax.
Thanks Ben, I feel even when people have opposite opinions, mud slinging and insults do little to help find some middle ground.
I don't disagree that it is our concern as a society (and by extension mine as a member of that society) that these systems are for the people who put the system in place, that's why we're having an election surely? The problem is however non of the parties are really prepared to address the causes of the poverty (both financial and moral) that bring about the abuse...both the Tories and the Labour party are far too busy trying to appear tough on 'benefit scroungers' to actually consider why they may exist. A little more thought and analysis and a little less metaphorical cock waving might go a long way.

14 Apr 2010

Quote by Staggerlee_BB
I'm in a similar situation my job is poorly paid many people around me are unemployed and seemingly in possession of more disposable income than me...there are also people around me struggling on benefits..all i can say is that just because a system is abused doesn't make it wrong, if people abuse the system then that's a matter for the law and their conscience and not mine.
P.S. if you're looking for far more expensive abuse of a system look at tax avoidance/evasion....non of the main parties will address this...you don't bite the hand that feeds you

I can not really disagree with any thing you have said, particularly the tax evasion. Only would add that I feel it is not just a matter for the law, and their conscience, I feel it is for the people who implement such benefit schemes to make it more difficult for people to do what Swcpl2005 have highlighted above.
Unlike yourself though I do feel it is a concern of mine, as it is my money they are steeling, the more who are aloud to abuse the system, the more we pay in tax.
Thanks Ben, I feel even when people have opposite opinions, mud slinging and insults do little to help find some middle ground.
I don't disagree that it is our concern as a society (and by extension mine as a member of that society) that these systems are for the people who put the system in place, that's why we're having an election surely? The problem is however non of the parties are really prepared to address the causes of the poverty (both financial and moral) that bring about the abuse...both the Tories and the Labour party are far too busy trying to appear tough on 'benefit scroungers' to actually consider why they may exist. A little more thought and analysis and a little less metaphorical cock waving might go a long way.
I see, treat the cause rather than the symptoms

14 Apr 2010

The number of people on "newspaper" benefits is extremely small.
The amount of benefit given to an unemployed person is
The "other" benefits are given to those who demand them...councils and landlords....council tax and housing benefit (and "mortgage" benefit (eventually)).
Those with disabled persons to care for get other benefit.
Quite frankly I find it hard to believe many of the stories....given that most of the benefits are means tested.
We'll slip sideways to ESA (incapacity/illness benefit)...which is not only means tested but also medically tested now (if being examined by occupational health professionals is anything to do with medicine)....all claimants are examined (not voluntary....mandatory) by "healthcare professionals" (anyone higher than a tooth polisher can be a healthcare professional....as long as they fulfil the requirements and pay to be registered).
The "healthcare professionals" do not even have to be doctors or nurses....who much prefer to be called "primary healthcare professionals".
Which leads, and has led, to terminally ill people being assessed as fit for work, and not just on the odd occasion either.
No, to be "well-off" on benefits you have to be a liar, and working, or extremely lucky.
Mind you....there must be an election coming...the Daily Wail is trotting-out the old stories with new endings...and the Sun....so one party must have promised to shut the bbc down....
The old ones are always the best !

18 Apr 2010

Thanks too to all the late posters on this thread - it is a complex issue and the range of contribution has been interesting.
Plim

19 Apr 2010

Only another couple of weeks... can we survive that long or will we be smothered in our beds by volcanic ash before it happens?

20 Apr 2010

This is more like it...