Oh and P.S. randa you seem to have rather deliberately sidestepped my other points.
If you have a answer give it if your only answer is to recommend killing someone I'm not interested
Don't fob me off with some smug circular pacifist logic Staggerlee ! the fact is that in periods of history it has been necessary to meet evil violent dogmas, whether nazism in the 30's or islamic fundamentalist terror now, with a strategy that involves both politics, and yes, police and military action.
My intent is not to fob anyone years ago this argument would have been about the I.R.A. there was no military solution to that problem,there is no military solution to this one,as with Northern Ireland the only way forward is through diplomacy.
I am as accused a pacifist....this doesn't mean I'm you want me to argue cause and effect due to military action I'm more than happy to ,start the thread I'll be there.
What makes your bigotry better than theirs??It seems you both think in the same way and have come to the same conclusion ....kill them all
In what way have the lives of us or the Afghan people been improved by the invasion? in what sense are any of us safer?
If you are being oppressed and killed it doesn't matter who is doing it the result is the same.
I think we should all take the time to realise and understand that part of warfare is successful propoganda. It goes hand in hand with the dropping of bombs. Winning hearts and minds is just as important to those involved as blowing the enemy to pieces and taking /defending land.
I wonder, Riotandtony inparticular, have you always had such extreme views on the "enemy", or did it start with what you saw/read post 9/11?
How do we really know who was/is responsible for the terror?
do we really know who the real heroes are .. or the real villains?
I would like to answer the op’s question sorry to detract from the forces.
I believe a true hero to be Mr or Mrs Joe blogs that gets up in the morning and unknown to them a sequence of events in that day is going to make them think on their feet and take time out for another person or living creature in need.
People that get paid to do a job can be a hero, but it is the people that do things without monetary gain to me are the true hero’s.
I am no pacifist.
The War on terror etc(insert euphamism of choice)is a total nonsense. Waged purely because of oil lust. There are countless despots who thank their lucky stars that they dont have any oil to be stolen and are therefore left to their own devices whilst the UN whines ineffectually. Think about Africa.
British soldiers choose to be soldiers much as I choose not to be. If we bring in a compulsory draft I might take on board some of the heroes hype.
Oh and as a point of reference the majority of British people didn't elect the current government. The turnout at the last election was about 60% and only 40% of those voted labour. So the current government was favoured by less than a quarter of the folk who had a say. Anyway if memory serves, the decision to join George Bush in his quest for world domination was supported by all the major parties at the time.
Does anybody still honestly believe this war is about anything other than oil?
I think this hero thing has been done many times before.
The English dictionary sums up the word " hero " very nicely.
Have a gander at what the real meaning of the word is, and it can apply to many people in many forms.
Or will people say the English dictionary version is rubbish?
For the record Minxy.....I think that member of your family is a hero. Well in my book he is.
A few points, Al Queda had actually launched other attacks before 9/11 such as the attack on the US embassy in Kenya.
In response to Staggerlee's statement that life has not got better for Afghanistanis, I'd say it has (though obviously not far enough in the way of improvements has been made), they have a parliament, and are due to hold elections next August, music and dancing is now allowed, whearas under the Taleban it was banned - see the excellent documentary made by Havan Marking "Afghan Star", and more girls are now going to school - though of course the Taleban is doing its best to prevent this by blowing up schools etc, the list goes on, and as the Taleban & Al Queda and their mindless bigots are gradually defeated both politically and militarily - the situation for Afghani people of all tribes and both sexes will get better.
who are the talibans?
are they not members of the afghani people? are they not citizens of other countries who have moved there to follow an ideal and a religious belief?
if we accept this, and the fact that they face overwelming odds, troops, military equipment and training..
should they not be called heroes as well then?
surelly they put their lives on the line, are NOT paid for it (quite often not even trained for it), and do it for a higher purpose
is that not a definition of heroism?
(before you start slating me for this, I am by no means an advocate for what they do or believe in, which I find despicable in several ways and out of touch with time and modern society.. I hope they will be, ultimately, defeated or at least have their weapons taken from them)
I agree that terrorism must be met with the strongest possible opposition...I agree that al quaeda is responsible for 9/11 and therefore should be hunted to the last man.
I however find it hard to believe that the several tens of thousands of soldiers employed, the best efforts of some of the most respected, equipped and competent intelligence agencies of the world and the billions of money spent in the concentrated efforts, have not been able to bring down al quaeda or ascertain the whereabouts of their leaders.
that oil is the primary concern here is obvious to anybody who is aware of the fact that terrorism, oppression, infringment of human rights and civil war are very much a current issue in several parts of the worlds...parts of the world where no resources are to be found..and which are therefore abbandoned to their own devices.
I am very much a believer of the necessity for armed forces to be there, and to be paid more than they more often than not are. I admire whoever choses to serve his country for less money than he could earn elsewhere, because s/he believes it's the right thing to do.
I admire anyone who can go to a warring country and put his life on the line..come back and be towards his loved ones the same person he was before being sent to war.
do I think these people are heroes? no I don't.
I know quite a few people in the military or who have been in the military, not only here in england but in other countries as well.
most of them chose to do so because of a family tradition to uphold (in other words it was all they knew or were educated to look up to), or because quite simply, it was a living, and they had not managed to find an equally paid alternative job. a number of people I have talked to in america got offered to sign up in the military to avoid a prison sentence...how is that commendable? until the same people actually display heroism by performing feats above the call of duty, these are nothing but people who are doing a job...
there have been soldiers in the past who have been decorated for "being there"...it still happens... whatever action they performed or were involved in.
this doesn't make sense to me.
also I can't help but notice that the same people who call all soldiers heroes, do so only with "their soldiers"...whereas any opposing force is necessarily wicked and evil...whether they were enemy soldiers, terrorists, freedom fighters or simple citizens who stood in the way.
give me a soldier who refuses to beat up a civilian out of peer pressure or who goes against the orders of his superior officer if these are unjust..give me a soldier who puts himself in the line of fire to recover a fallen comrade or keeps fighting after being wounded to allow his comrades to gain better position..give me a paramedic who crawls under a car on fire to retrieve a puppy or a child, or a missionary who goes unarmed to deliver waterpumps in a country where water is fought over with rifles and handgranades
give me any of these people any day, over a mindless machine...or a soldier who "just obeys" orders
I WILL make the distinction and call heroes those who deserve it and not those who have merely done the duty they chose to take upon themselves and got paid for.
no, not all soldiers are heroes by default.
and whoever does think so should question their motives for thinking just that very hard...with the same intensity I question my own motives when I make up my mind.
