How can this be a racial issue ?
Someone in the forums last week mentioned how everything seems to be turning racial these days, surely this matter is not one for a racial abuse enquiry, abuse perhaps but how can race come into it when a footballer is accused of being abusive towards fans from the same area ? same colour, same religion in most cases, many born in the same cities as those from the opposing faction, Serbians v Albanians or all former Yugoslavians. They all grew up together in Kosovo.
This must be just a case of Nations disliking each other, if a Scotman insults and Englishman (as has been known) we don't look at it as a race issue, we are simply people of the same race who have issues born from our history.
When the Catholic population of Northern Ireland have a go at the Protestant population of Northern Ireland because they want to be part of Ireland and the Protestants want to be part of the United Kingdom (or vice versa) we don't say it is a racist issue surely they are all the same race but through history, heritage and religion there is a divide between them.
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Manchester City's Aleksandar Kolarov accused of racial abuse
Police are investigating an allegation that Manchester City player Aleksandar Kolarov racially abused Newcastle United supporters during his side's game at St James' Park.
Northumbria Police confirmed they were investigating a complaint following Saturday's match.
It is alleged Serbia international defender Kolarov, 27, made comments to fans holding an Albanian flag.
There is a history of enmity between Serbia and Albania.
The force said it took such allegations "extremely seriously" and inquiries were ongoing into the incident.
Kolarov is understood to vehemently deny the allegation.
The player came on as a substitute in City's 3-1 win over Newcastle but was replaced 18 minutes from time.
Tensions between Serbia and Albania most recently relate to the majority-Albanian Kosovo, which declared independence from Serbia in 2008.
Police have asked for anyone who heard or saw anything, or has any information, to contact them.
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How can this be a racial issue ?
The Crown Prosecution Service offers the following definition.
"A racial group means a group of persons defined by reference to race, colour, nationality (including citizenship) or ethnic or national origins. The definition is wide and victims may come within the definition under more than one of the references. Gypsies and some travellers, refugees or asylum seekers or others from less visible minorities would be included within this definition. There has been a legal ruling that Jews and Sikhs are included in the definition of a racial group (Mandla v Dowell-Lee 2 AC 548)."
Was Albania part of yugoslavia?
And if you had the shit kicked out of you by a bunch of welshmen round here on a saturday night cos you were english I reckon the police might call it racially motivated.
"A racial group means a group of persons defined by reference to race, colour, nationality (including citizenship) or ethnic or national origins. The definition is wide and victims may come within the definition under more than one of the references. Gypsies and some travellers, refugees or asylum seekers or others from less visible minorities would be included within this definition. There has been a legal ruling that Jews and Sikhs are included in the definition of a racial group (Mandla v Dowell-Lee 2 AC 548)."
Was Albania part of yugoslavia?
And if you had the shit kicked out of you by a bunch of welshmen round here on a saturday night cos you were english I reckon the police might call it racially motivated.
I realise what the law says but where do we draw the line of being sensible, will London clubs be using the race card for true cockneys born within the sound of bow bells ? scousers, geordies, become a slanderous word in years to come ?
What he actually said I don't know but I better be carefull next time I tell a joke about an Irishman or a Welshman.
What he actually said I don't know but I better be carefull next time I tell a joke about an Irishman or a Welshman.
Sex God
Bit of a problem in that race ( biological ) and ethnicity ( biological and cultural ) are often conflated though they are not quite the same. Race can define ethnicity but that's not the whole story. Ethnicity might be defined also by nationality, language, religion, shared tradition, etc. For our purposes though the law treats them as one and the same thing. I think this is the main piece of legislation that spells out what racially motivated means
So, leaving aside altogether whether ethnic Serbs and ethnic Albanians are the same race, or a different one they are different ethnically, culturally. An attack by an Russian Orthodox Serb on an Albanian Muslim solely because of his membership of that particular ethnic group for instance would be deemed a racist attack because the Serb would be asserting his cultural, not racial / biological superiority over the other. It's a hate crime.
HTH?
Crime and Disorder Act 1998 Section 28
28 Meaning of “racially or religiously aggravated”.
(1) An offence is racially or religiously aggravated for the purposes of sections 29 to 32 below if—
(a) at the time of committing the offence, or immediately before or after doing so, the offender demonstrates towards the victim of the offence hostility based on the victim’s membership (or presumed membership) of a racial or religious group; or
(b) the offence is motivated (wholly or partly) by hostility towards members of a racial or religious group based on their membership of that group.
*snip*
(4) In this section “racial group” means a group of persons defined by reference to race, colour, nationality (including citizenship) or ethnic or national origins.
So, leaving aside altogether whether ethnic Serbs and ethnic Albanians are the same race, or a different one they are different ethnically, culturally. An attack by an Russian Orthodox Serb on an Albanian Muslim solely because of his membership of that particular ethnic group for instance would be deemed a racist attack because the Serb would be asserting his cultural, not racial / biological superiority over the other. It's a hate crime.
HTH?
OK guys that's the legal issue, but what do you as people think, were the Albanians not inciting him, waving thier flag at him, this was a Manchester City v Newcastle game what had the Albanian flag to do with it ?
Is this really a racial issue ?
A matter of different regional opinions brought about by history as with the England v Scotland matches ?
A case of 6 of one and half a dozen of the other ?
Will we have to have a whole new policing policy at England v Scotland matches now. Will we arrest anyone who says anything at the match which is against the regional nationality of other supporters or players ?
Will you only be able to call each other United Kingomites or Europeans ?
Are our laws being taken too literally and used against people for the wrong reasons ?
When should we be able to use common sense ?
Is this really a racial issue ?
A matter of different regional opinions brought about by history as with the England v Scotland matches ?
A case of 6 of one and half a dozen of the other ?
Will we have to have a whole new policing policy at England v Scotland matches now. Will we arrest anyone who says anything at the match which is against the regional nationality of other supporters or players ?
Will you only be able to call each other United Kingomites or Europeans ?
Are our laws being taken too literally and used against people for the wrong reasons ?
When should we be able to use common sense ?
Sex God
That's a lot of questions Jed. What are your views?
And for the record Albania was never part of the Former Yugoslavia.
And for the record Albania was never part of the Former Yugoslavia.
Sex God
Difficult Jed. The Act doesn't define what 'hostility' means but is a couple of fans waving an Albanian flag, even if they're trying to wind the player up with it as overtly hostile as the player rounding on them and giving them a mouthful? I'm not sure it is? One's kind of passive-aggressive, the other's aggressive plain and simple.
Saying that I'm sure these fans would have been giving it some verbal too, probably is six of one, half a dozen of the other in this case but seems the Alabanian fans made a complaint which the police now have to investigate, Kolarov apparently didn't, or hasn't yet at least? Other than a bit of disciplinary for rising to any baiting from the club I doubt it will go anywhere.
As for English, Irishmen and Scotsman jokes, etc the key word is hostile. It's about the intent. Your freedom of speech and right to tell off-colour 1970s jokes if that's what you're into is not curtailed, it would need to have some real aggression and hate behind it I think in a way that constitutes a verbal assault.
Saying that I'm sure these fans would have been giving it some verbal too, probably is six of one, half a dozen of the other in this case but seems the Alabanian fans made a complaint which the police now have to investigate, Kolarov apparently didn't, or hasn't yet at least? Other than a bit of disciplinary for rising to any baiting from the club I doubt it will go anywhere.
As for English, Irishmen and Scotsman jokes, etc the key word is hostile. It's about the intent. Your freedom of speech and right to tell off-colour 1970s jokes if that's what you're into is not curtailed, it would need to have some real aggression and hate behind it I think in a way that constitutes a verbal assault.
Are you serious?
Of course I am serious, this was a situation where people from Kosovo of Albanian descent were as they alledge racially abused by another person from Kosovo of Serbian descent what is the difference between that and people from London who say they are cockneys, Geordies v Sunderland, Scousers, Mancs, Scots, English, Welsh, NI Protestants or NI Catholics ?
Not legally speaking but using common sense.
Why are Black people quick to say "I was born in England" if that does not make them all part of this Nation as previous comments suggest. to say that all these people were of different races despite being all born in Kosovo.
Black people born in Britain are to me British and English (or Welsh or Scottish etc) thier colour doesn't make them any less British than me or less English nor does thier religion change what they are.
If the taunts were religious belief orientated that would be different, if it was the colour of their skin but coming from the same City with a different heritage is not the same, or at least shouldn't be there has to be a line drawn between Nations and race.
Will we outlaw the word Sassanach or Jock both of which are derogatory terms for English and Scots.
I do see the comments about aggression being a divider between right and wrong in other comments though.
Of course I am serious, this was a situation where people from Kosovo of Albanian descent were as they alledge racially abused by another person from Kosovo of Serbian descent what is the difference between that and people from London who say they are cockneys, Geordies v Sunderland, Scousers, Mancs, Scots, English, Welsh, NI Protestants or NI Catholics ?
Not legally speaking but using common sense.
Why are Black people quick to say "I was born in England" if that does not make them all part of this Nation as previous comments suggest. to say that all these people were of different races despite being all born in Kosovo.
Black people born in Britain are to me British and English (or Welsh or Scottish etc) thier colour doesn't make them any less British than me or less English nor does thier religion change what they are.
If the taunts were religious belief orientated that would be different, if it was the colour of their skin but coming from the same City with a different heritage is not the same, or at least shouldn't be there has to be a line drawn between Nations and race.
Will we outlaw the word Sassanach or Jock both of which are derogatory terms for English and Scots.
I do see the comments about aggression being a divider between right and wrong in other comments though.
Quote by flower411
What I found really sad was the Dambusters film being dubbed to take out the reference to Guy's Labrador - . Why was this politically correct?
If I had a black poodle with a curly head of hair, why can't I call it 'sambo'?
All this political correctness has just gone too far.
If you plan on letting it run off the lead it might be an inadvisible name to be shouting in certain neighbourhoods !!
:rotflmao::rotflmao: 
Sex God
Quote by GnV
What I found really sad was the Dambusters film being dubbed to take out the reference to Guy's Labrador - . Why was this politically correct?
If I had a black poodle with a curly head of hair, why can't I call it 'sambo'?
All this political correctness has just gone too far.
If you plan on letting it run off the lead it might be an inadvisible name to be shouting in certain neighbourhoods !!
:rotflmao::rotflmao:Can I suggest that if you really need to bring the dogs colour into it's name then all black dogs should be called Taxi
Wrong to edit out the word in the film the Dambusters it was after all the name of a pilots dog, it is history and was a fact.
Do we now have to edit every film that has contents which are now recognised as offensive, there will be nothing left of the Carry On films, no more war films, the word eytie or kraut is too widely used in them to have anything left, Life of Brian would be advert sized.
As some have said in here it is not always the word used but the context in which it is said, a dog called all those years ago might be mildly offensive in this day and age but was a reality, sometimes we need reminding of times when we got things wrong.
In this day and age calling a dog Sambo would be inadvisable, we have a black dog, Sasha wanted to call it Sambo, she is Russian and in Russia Sambo is the martial art she used to study, she chose the name after watching the way it kicks it's legs when sleeping and dreaming, she was happy to forego the idea when I explained how it might be misunderstood here in the UK. Whilst totally legal and with a plausible reason for it's use it does make you think what the consequences could be ........
Suppose she was walking the dog and shouted Sambo, suppose it was heard by a black person who phoned the Police and accused her of racial abuse ? could we guarantee being cleared of an offence in a UK court, or might some think we were being offensive, intentionally or not ?
Yes the law is the law but we do have a need to rationalise it sometimes, use common sense and recognise intent.
Do we now have to edit every film that has contents which are now recognised as offensive, there will be nothing left of the Carry On films, no more war films, the word eytie or kraut is too widely used in them to have anything left, Life of Brian would be advert sized.
As some have said in here it is not always the word used but the context in which it is said, a dog called all those years ago might be mildly offensive in this day and age but was a reality, sometimes we need reminding of times when we got things wrong.
In this day and age calling a dog Sambo would be inadvisable, we have a black dog, Sasha wanted to call it Sambo, she is Russian and in Russia Sambo is the martial art she used to study, she chose the name after watching the way it kicks it's legs when sleeping and dreaming, she was happy to forego the idea when I explained how it might be misunderstood here in the UK. Whilst totally legal and with a plausible reason for it's use it does make you think what the consequences could be ........
Suppose she was walking the dog and shouted Sambo, suppose it was heard by a black person who phoned the Police and accused her of racial abuse ? could we guarantee being cleared of an offence in a UK court, or might some think we were being offensive, intentionally or not ?
Yes the law is the law but we do have a need to rationalise it sometimes, use common sense and recognise intent.
Sex God
Now now Star. The last time you made that assertion it was shown to be total bollox with a quick Google that provided links to successful prosecutions of black on white and black on asian racist offences, wasn't it, remember?
It is a real difficult one.....the fact is if someone is offended, then... do you really still want to say it !!
I think generally we have grown up and moved on.....and certain terms that we used maybe before, we would never think of saying anymore.
It reminds me really of an old mate of mine when we were all in our 20's. He lost his hair very young, and we used to nick name him BALD EAGLE. He seemed to take it in good humour and we thought it was just a laugh....we certainly didn't mean to offend or upset him. However one night we were out and he was very drunk, and he confessed to me, that it really hurt that every one called him BALD EAGLE, and he felt he was a person of redicule. Next day I made sure I told all the lads and from that day on, we never called by that nick name again !!
At the time no offence was meant, and we all thought it was a joke. However the person it was aimed at, although not outwardly seeming bothered by it, was actually deeply upset by it.
We should all sometimes stop and think about the type of laugue we use. We may well be offending someone, without wishing to !!!
I think generally we have grown up and moved on.....and certain terms that we used maybe before, we would never think of saying anymore.
It reminds me really of an old mate of mine when we were all in our 20's. He lost his hair very young, and we used to nick name him BALD EAGLE. He seemed to take it in good humour and we thought it was just a laugh....we certainly didn't mean to offend or upset him. However one night we were out and he was very drunk, and he confessed to me, that it really hurt that every one called him BALD EAGLE, and he felt he was a person of redicule. Next day I made sure I told all the lads and from that day on, we never called by that nick name again !!
At the time no offence was meant, and we all thought it was a joke. However the person it was aimed at, although not outwardly seeming bothered by it, was actually deeply upset by it.
We should all sometimes stop and think about the type of laugue we use. We may well be offending someone, without wishing to !!!
Quote by Paddy
Someone also posted:
http://www.swingingheaven.co.uk/swingers-forum/viewtopic/413389.html
I'm disrupting this thread:
Sometimes we take not only each other, but that of our friends lives for granted!
We're all eqaul on this planet and indeed here.
Paddy
x
terrible, terrible thing I can not even begin to think of the scale of that families anguish and heartbreak!
My thoughts go out to them this morning,
Quote by neilinleeds
Now now Star. The last time you made that assertion it was shown to be total bollox with a quick Google that provided links to successful prosecutions of black on white and black on asian racist offences, wasn't it, remember?
Well I suppose Neil that with a tiny amount of people being prosecuted for racial crimes be it black against black, or black against Asian, or even the rare prosecution of black against white race crimes it is just that......a tiny amount, many would say a point has been proved.
Still I suppose if it is only 1% of race crimes then you would argue that it makes your point.
Many people believe that the police being politically correct, would go out of their way to investigate crimes of race much more where the person being racist is white. I have heard that argument many times, I shall not pass any judgement as what do I know?
But you cannot possibly say that crimes are of an equal proportion, in fact not even close.
