Is an apology enough ?

26 Sep 2012

Quote by starlightcouple
Again, it has to be remembered what this guy's job is before condemning him as heartless.

Heartless GnV? This " guys job " has nothing whatsoever to do with his behaviour, and nobody should be suggesting that because of his job, he should be allowed to verbally slag off a member of the Police. It seems you are making excuses because of his job ???? How disgraceful itself to suggest such a thing.

Quote by GnV
His job is to be a bully. Nice guys don't cut the mustard as Government Chief Whip. They have to have an 'evil' streak if they are to be successful.

Are you being serious???
absolutely serious

Quote by GnV
Mr Mitchell is a bruiser and probably more effective than his predecessor. I doubt he will be replaced on account of this incident.

Certainly not because of this incidence GnV, nor the fact that he shares similar backgrounds to all the other Tory toffs currently in office, or the Lib Dem leader who is also from the elite school of Eton. The old school tie brigade. Is he a bruiser or a bully? A big fat bully in my book.
i think you'll find he's quite fit actually

Quote by GnV
On the Police front, how remarkable is it that an internal report of the incident has been placed in the public domain and for what purpose? We are apparently not dealing with some rookie 'wet behind the ears' constable but a Police Sergeant presumably with sufficient experience to put this sort of thing into context and deal with it in a much calmer manner - perhaps using 'ways and means' a more mature way of bringing something to the notice of those with sufficient influence to deal with the situation quietly and behind the scenes.

Imagine being this police officer GnV. To get to his position within the force he has had to spend many years of training. Many years of striving towards a position of trust, through sheer bloody hard work. This politician like so many others, has been born into privilege. Born into money and position in life. Like so many other politicians, never done a real days hard work in their lives except possibly where going to fancy eateries is required. Why should this police officer have wanted to keep it silent? Why should some self serving politician be allowed to treat a person in authority also with such utter contempt?
I have put myself in his position star. The mature thing to have done would have been to wish the GCW a cheerful 'have a nice day, Sir' and use a bit of intelligence to pursue the matter, not to bundle in with size 15's, wooden top style. Basically, he let the matter get out of hand. His years of training were wasted in my view and he has shown himself not to be worthy of further promotion. It's called the 'Peter Principle'.
The GCW is an elected Member of Parliament. He did not get there as a result of any 'privileged' upbringing unless you are suggesting he paid for his seat in Parliament.

Quote by GnV
I'm convinced there is some hidden agenda here. The Police command are not showing themselves to be in proper control of the situation and if anyone should be removed from office, it should be the officer who would do well to vent his spleen on point duty for a couple of days, not by acting like a silly little school girl with PMT.

What a strange thing to say even for you. Your not possibly stating again about some kind of conspiracy theory again are you? No hidden agenda here at all GnV. The fact is as I have stated above, what gives a silver spooned Tory toff born into money and privilege the right to behave in such a disgusting manner? I tell you what GnV, I would rather have one of those police officers on duty than ten of the Andrew Mitchell's of this world of that you can be sure of.
You can be certain of it star. Let me remind you again of the appalling behaviour of the Police in the aftermath of the Hillsborough disaster, as well as many other well documented occurrences.

Quote by GnV
In my estimation, the officer is wholly unsuited to this type of duty as it requires discretion and a element of humility sadly lacking in this 'jobsworth' individual.

But at least he has got to this position by hard work. The Chief Whips excuse is what exactly???
The GCW got there by hard work too. I'm not making excuses for him but I am saying that the Police Officer concerned displayed an alarming lack of suitability to the assigned post. He doesn't have to be subservient, just display a better aptitude for dealing with difficult people. Policing in the UK is by consent, not by demand. He could have shown the true extent of his training and experience by diffusing the situation and avoiding conflict except that he chose to go about his duty like a bull in a china shop... or as already stated, a silly little school girl throwing a tantrum whilst experiencing her first bout of PMT. Hardly a suitable sort of person to be guarding the seat of Government, no matter what you think of them.

26 Sep 2012

I'm genuinely at a loss as to what on earth class or privilege has to do with this?
Star - I find it surprising that you would make a comment like "what gives a silver spooned Tory toff born into money and privilege the right to behave in such a disgusting manner". Do you really think his background is at all relevant? What gives anyone, regardless of socio-economic status, the right to be abusive to a police officer? And a person in his position should certainly know better.
I really do think that talking about class and trying to turn this into an issue about his background or political views just detracts and distracts from the actual issue.

26 Sep 2012

@Lilith :thumbup:

26 Sep 2012

Quote by GnV
the Police Officer concerned displayed an alarming lack of suitability to the assigned post. He doesn't have to be subservient, just display a better aptitude for dealing with difficult people.

Do you know something we don't? Unless you actually know exactly what happened and why, you do seem to be assuming rather a lot here...

Quote by GnV
He could have shown the true extent of his training and experience by diffusing the situation and avoiding conflict except that he chose to go about his duty like a bull in a china shop...

Again, do you know more than everyone else about what happened? For all we know, the officer did try to diffuse the situation... And, even if he did not, surely this goes both ways? Shouldn't Mr Mitchell also be expected to show some maturity?

26 Sep 2012

Quote by GnV
@Lilith :thumbup:

... you may like me less after reading my latest post! innocent

;-)

26 Sep 2012

Quote by Lilith
@Lilith :thumbup:

... you may like me less after reading my latest post! innocent

;-)
Not at all. Valid points.
Police officers are trained to deal with difficult people and diffuse difficult or take control of developing situations. That is their stock-in-trade.
It would appear from reports (hoist by their own petard comes to mind here) that this was not the case.
The officer appears too officious and over-reacted, unnecessarily inflaming the situation for his own dubious purposes.
On the other hand, an MP receives no such training and one should come to expect the very worst from them. Anything better than that is a bonus.
As I said, a more experienced officer could have dealt with it quite differently and avoided the unnecessary public spat. He could then have been much more effective 'behind the scenes' in bringing the errant GCW to account and could have returned to the gate with a wry, but knowing smile.
There are many more ways of killing a cat than screwing its neck!

26 Sep 2012

Quote by Lilith
I'm genuinely at a loss as to what on earth class or privilege has to do with this?
Star - I find it surprising that you would make a comment like "what gives a silver spooned Tory toff born into money and privilege the right to behave in such a disgusting manner". Do you really think his background is at all relevant? What gives anyone, regardless of socio-economic status, the right to be abusive to a police officer? And a person in his position should certainly know better.
I really do think that talking about class and trying to turn this into an issue about his background or political views just detracts and distracts from the actual issue.

it has everything to do with his background. It also has everything to do with that privaledged background. I would expect a foul mouthed football yob to have behaved in this way, but certainly not a person in his political position.
I think his background is more than relevant and I would suggest so do most other people. Your argument holds very little in the way of understanding his behavior. I cannot understand for a second how you can fail to see the obvious here. rolleyes

26 Sep 2012

Quote by starlightcouple
it has everything to do with his background. It also has everything to do with that privaledged background. I would expect a foul mouthed football yob to have behaved in this way, but certainly not a person in his political position.

Firstly, his political position is one thing; his background is an entirely different matter. I agree that a person in his political position should know better and should not have behaved in that way (as I have already said). I also agree that he should be held to a higher standard with regard to his public behaviour because he holds a public office and is in a position of influence and power. That position brings with it responsibilities. The subtlety that you appear to be missing is that I would expect the same of anyone in that office, regardless of their background or upbringing.
Secondly, I would argue that behaving abusively to police officers is unacceptable for anyone, regardless of their background. Do you disagree with that? Do you think that it is ok for a "football yob" to behave in that way, just because you may expect it from him? In my opinion, coming from an under-privileged background is not an excuse for anti-social behaviour. You seem to be suggesting that it is only the "privileged" who should be expected to behave with manners...?
Finally, I wonder whether you think that being born into privilege automatically results in a person being polite and well-mannered, and that (on the contrary), being born with a low socio-economic status automatically results in "yobs"?
I'm not sure what you think is so obvious about your point that everyone should see it...?
Also, while I'm writing...

Quote by starlightcouple
Your argument holds very little in the way of understanding his behavior.

AND

Quote by starlightcouple
Two wrongs never make a right, and to put ones self into another persons head, as to try and make some kind of excuse for their behavior or to try and understand their behavior , is i am sorry to say utter madness.

...Make your mind up!! :roll:

26 Sep 2012

Quote by Lilith
...Make your mind up!!

I have already.
As an aside have you been a member on here before?

26 Sep 2012

Quote by GnV
Police officers are trained to deal with difficult people and diffuse difficult or take control of developing situations. That is their stock-in-trade.
It would appear from reports (hoist by their own petard comes to mind here) that this was not the case.
The officer appears too officious and over-reacted, unnecessarily inflaming the situation for his own dubious purposes.

Would you mind posting links to the exact reports you're talking about? I'm curious to know what you've read in order to come to that conclusion about the officer's behaviour. I've only read/heard rather vague reports...

Quote by GnV
On the other hand, an MP receives no such training and one should come to expect the very worst from them. Anything better than that is a bonus.

very well put!

Quote by GnV
As I said, a more experienced officer could have dealt with it quite differently and avoided the unnecessary public spat. He could then have been much more effective 'behind the scenes' in bringing the errant GCW to account and could have returned to the gate with a wry, but knowing smile.
There are many more ways of killing a cat than screwing its neck!

Perhaps, and I do see your point. You are right that there are other ways that it could have been handled. But, notwithstanding that the officer may be at fault also, I don't think that this justifies or somehow excuses Mr Mitchell's behaviour, and I still think it is absolutely right that he should hold his hands up and apologise (and be clear about what he is apologising for, as per flower's original comment in this thread). However, I suspect we are in agreement on that point anyway... ;-)

26 Sep 2012

Seems you've met your match there, star :grin:

26 Sep 2012

Quote by starlightcouple

...Make your mind up!!

I have already.
As an aside have you been a member on here before?
rotflmao

No comment... ;-)
Sort of, yes. I was previously on here as "LB1" (on an account called LB2012) - we joined the site in April. But, in an attempt to encourage my wife to make use of the site more (which has so far been unsuccessful!), I created a second couples account and we re-branded as "Lilith" and "Inanna". I took this new account (created in July) and left the old account for my wife to use. Now, if only I could find a way to make her actually log on... :confused:
(and, just in case the reference to "wife" confuses anyone who hasn't read my profile... we're a lesbian married couple, but I'm bi) :-D

26 Sep 2012

Quote by GnV
Seems you've met your match there, star :grin:

Not about meeting matches GnV, it is about learning from others and there posting techniques.
wink

26 Sep 2012

Quote by starlightcouple
Seems you've met your match there, star :grin:

Not about meeting matches GnV, it is about learning from others and there posting techniques.
wink

Come on then... duel

;-)

26 Sep 2012

Quote by Lilith
Sort of, yes. I was previously on here as "LB1" (on an account called LB2012) - we joined the site in April. But, in an attempt to encourage my wife to make use of the site more (which has so far been unsuccessful!), I created a second couples account and we re-branded as "Lilith" and "Inanna". I took this new account (created in July) and left the old account for my wife to use. Now, if only I could find a way to make her actually log on... :confused:

I kinda think you have picked up the workings of this forum far to quickly,and your style of posting seems to be not that of a member of only a few short months. Still if you have only been on here since April, then I admire the way you have learnt how to do the quote thingy and other things which even established forum users have struggled with.

Quote by Lilith
(and, just in case the reference to "wife" confuses anyone who hasn't read my profile... we're a lesbian married couple, but I'm bi) :-D

Not confused at all about that as I did read your profile, as you have obviously had a civil ceremony. :thumbup:

26 Sep 2012

Quote by starlightcouple
I kinda think you have picked up the workings of this forum far to quickly,and your style of posting seems to be not that of a member of only a few short months. Still if you have only been on here since April, then I admire the way you have learnt how to do the quote thingy and other things which even established forum users have struggled with.

Why, thank you. I have a rudimentary knowledge of html, which helps. But, I learn quickly and (so my wife would say) spend too much time on here! I only discovered the forums after a few months on the site. I spent most of my time in the chatrooms before that (which I still enjoy). Then, when I discovered the forums, I posted a reasonable number of posts (mostly in the cafe) as LB2012. That account has been renamed "Inanna", so if you search for that, you'll find my older posts. With hindsight, perhaps we should have created the new account for my wife, so that I didn't look quite so green! But, at least it keeps you all on your toes, eh?!

Quote by starlightcouple
you have obviously had a civil ceremony. :thumbup:

Yes, we have :-) We had our civil partnership in March, and went on our honeymoon a month ago. :-D
Nice to meet you kiss

26 Sep 2012

Quote by flower411
Steady on !!!
You`ll have Trevaunance in here complaining that you`ve gone off topic !

26 Sep 2012

Quote by Lilith
Would you mind posting links to the exact reports you're talking about? I'm curious to know what you've read in order to come to that conclusion about the officer's behaviour. I've only read/heard rather vague reports...

It was yesterday I think, a link in the Daily Telegraph (on line) or similar with a full copy of the internal report submitted by the officers concerned in to the public domain - a most unusual move if I ever saw one.
Apologies for not bothering to save it somewhere. More important fish to fry, as it were.
In edit:
Couched in typical Police-eeze and closely resembles the 'closing ranks' back-me-up-boys' non-speak often found in Magistrates Courts up and down the country. "I was proceeding in a westerly direction, sir when I came upon a person I now know to be the Government Chief Whip clutching a pair of bicycle clips......" He knew fucking damn well who he was and was being 'mischievous'.
Elsewhere, I was reminded in support of my posting about two faced Ed Miliband yet again jumping on a bandwagon, a reference to Gordon Brown's rant about a labour supporting pensioner a few years back and calling her a bigot. I don't remember Miliband calling for Brown to resign on that occasion and it was far more serious, in my humble opinion - of course!
It's all puff. Tomorrows sausage wrappers. Parliament is in recess for the conference season so the hacks are trying to keep the pot bubbling whilst they wait to hear tittle tattle about which minister is shagging so-and-so's missus etc in the back alley behind the conference hall.
Muck spreaders, all of them :lol2:
The unfortunate copper just waded in with both left feet and provided some much needed red top arse wiping material for the pubs down the old kent road for the next few days.

26 Sep 2012

Quote by GnV
Would you mind posting links to the exact reports you're talking about? I'm curious to know what you've read in order to come to that conclusion about the officer's behaviour. I've only read/heard rather vague reports...

It was yesterday I think, a link in the Daily Telegraph (on line) or similar with a full copy of the internal report submitted by the officers concerned in to the public domain - a most unusual move if I ever saw one.
Apologies for not bothering to save it somewhere. More important fish to fry, as it were.
In edit:
Couched in typical Police-eeze and closely resembles the 'closing ranks' back-me-up-boys' non-speak often found in Magistrates Courts up and down the country. "I was proceeding in a westerly direction, sir when I came upon a person I now know to be the Government Chief Whip clutching a pair of bicycle clips......" He knew fucking damn well who he was and was being 'mischievous'.
Elsewhere, I was reminded in support of my posting about two faced Ed Miliband yet again jumping on a bandwagon, a reference to Gordon Brown's rant about a labour supporting pensioner a few years back and calling her a bigot. I don't remember Miliband calling for Brown to resign on that occasion and it was far more serious, in my humble opinion - of course!
It's all puff. Tomorrows sausage wrappers. Parliament is in recess for the conference season so the hacks are trying to keep the pot bubbling whilst they wait to hear tittle tattle about which minister is shagging so-and-so's missus etc in the back alley behind the conference hall.
Muck spreaders, all of them :lol2:
The unfortunate copper just waded in with both left feet and provided some much needed red top arse wiping material for the pubs down the old kent road for the next few days.
Thank you kiss

And, you do have a wonderful way with words... ;-)

26 Sep 2012

Quote by Lilith
Would you mind posting links to the exact reports you're talking about? I'm curious to know what you've read in order to come to that conclusion about the officer's behaviour. I've only read/heard rather vague reports...

It was yesterday I think, a link in the Daily Telegraph (on line) or similar with a full copy of the internal report submitted by the officers concerned in to the public domain - a most unusual move if I ever saw one.
Apologies for not bothering to save it somewhere. More important fish to fry, as it were.
In edit:
Couched in typical Police-eeze and closely resembles the 'closing ranks' back-me-up-boys' non-speak often found in Magistrates Courts up and down the country. "I was proceeding in a westerly direction, sir when I came upon a person I now know to be the Government Chief Whip clutching a pair of bicycle clips......" He knew fucking damn well who he was and was being 'mischievous'.
Elsewhere, I was reminded in support of my posting about two faced Ed Miliband yet again jumping on a bandwagon, a reference to Gordon Brown's rant about a labour supporting pensioner a few years back and calling her a bigot. I don't remember Miliband calling for Brown to resign on that occasion and it was far more serious, in my humble opinion - of course!
It's all puff. Tomorrows sausage wrappers. Parliament is in recess for the conference season so the hacks are trying to keep the pot bubbling whilst they wait to hear tittle tattle about which minister is shagging so-and-so's missus etc in the back alley behind the conference hall.
Muck spreaders, all of them :lol2:
The unfortunate copper just waded in with both left feet and provided some much needed red top arse wiping material for the pubs down the old kent road for the next few days.
Thank you kiss

And, you do have a wonderful way with words... ;-)
Two of a kind. :notes:

26 Sep 2012

Quote by starlightcouple
Two of a kind. :notes:

Awwwww star, you're all heart :rose:

26 Sep 2012

Quote by flower411
I can`t see anything in that report that backs up your accusations against the police officers involved. You appear to be just making stuff up to support your own prejudice.

Wouldn't expect you to flower. Nothing changes.

26 Sep 2012

Quote by flower411
I can`t see anything in that report that backs up your accusations against the police officers involved. You appear to be just making stuff up to support your own prejudice.

Wouldn't expect you to flower. Nothing changes.
Exactly ..... you make spurious accusations with no back up whatsoever.
Plus ca change ......
dunno

Powerful stuff that baby bio.....
Aren't you supposed to add water to it?
I only ask because it's something I know you are qualified to comment on.

26 Sep 2012

As mr Flower should have said,

26 Sep 2012

Quote by starlightcouple
Two of a kind. :notes:

I'm still trying to work out whether that was a compliment or an insult... dunno

26 Sep 2012

Take it as a compliment. He got the spelling right :lol2:

26 Sep 2012

Quote by GnV

I've now read through the article. I think Mr Mitchell behaved very badly and that the Officer in question handled it appropriately - yes, perhaps he could have just let him through the main gate, but why should he? If the policy is to use the pedestrian gate, then why should the chief whip get some sort of special treatment? I suspect his arrogance probably irritated the Officer - it certainly would have irritated me - so he probably wanted to make a bit of a point and put Mr Mitchell in his place (as it were). They're doing their jobs and Mr Mitchell should be grateful to them for being there - protecting and serving - rather than insulting them and telling them to learn their place. You can be sure that he'd be grateful for the police if there were ever any sort of terrorist attack there... he'd be cowering behind them and expecting them to do their jobs!!
In short, although I do see your point and I concede that this has possibly been whipped up more than it had to be (perhaps with some sort of hidden agenda), it serves him right! And I think it's a good thing that an example is being made of him - MPs should not be allowed to behave this way with impunity. Perhaps he'll learn to behave more politely in future and treat people with common courtesy and respect, rather than behaving like a pompous prat.

26 Sep 2012

Quote by GnV
Take it as a compliment. He got the spelling right :lol2:

Yes - I do like to read posts with correct spelling, grammar and punctuation... nothing like an eloquent post to spark my interest! ;-)
Hence my comment about your way with words (and I explain this partly for Star's benefit ;-) )... whether or not I agree with you, I do enjoy reading what you have to say. Not only can you spell and construct a sentence properly, you paint quite a picture!! Particular highlights from the post I commented on earlier include:

Quote by GnV
so the hacks are trying to keep the pot bubbling whilst they wait to hear tittle tattle about which minister is shagging so-and-so's missus etc in the back alley behind the conference hall.

AND

Quote by GnV
The unfortunate copper just waded in with both left feet and provided some much needed red top arse wiping material for the pubs down the old kent road for the next few days.

26 Sep 2012

Quote by flower411

Aren't you supposed to add water to it?
I only ask because it's something I know you are qualified to comment on.

Now there`s something you are right about !!
Last time I told someone on this forum to take more water with it all hell broke loose.
But as we all know, stuff that can get me banned passes without comment when somebody else says it rolleyes

Well, that's settled then.

26 Sep 2012

Quote by GnV

Aren't you supposed to add water to it?
I only ask because it's something I know you are qualified to comment on.

Now there`s something you are right about !!
Last time I told someone on this forum to take more water with it all hell broke loose.
But as we all know, stuff that can get me banned passes without comment when somebody else says it rolleyes

Well, that's settled then.
Now, now boys... Play nicely! smackbottom