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Just curious......

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But there seems to be very little comment on the Labour party's apparent good faith in refusing to water down their election promises in order to get into bed with the Libdems.
So much for Gordon Browns supposed clinging on to power whatever the cost
Quote by Staggerlee_BB
But there seems to be very little comment on the Labour party's apparent good faith in refusing to water down their election promises in order to get into bed with the Libdems.
So much for Gordon Browns supposed clinging on to power whatever the cost

Gordon Brown would have clung to power given the chance, I don't think there was any doubt about that but Labour have been very cute. By opening negotiations with the LibDems, they were able to remove Brown, as Clegg had publicly stated he wouldn't work with Brown. Brown allowed himself to be persuaded to quit a little to early in the proceedings. Anyone who believes that he quit of his own volition is living in cloud cuckoo land.
The rest of the Labour hierarchy ( Mandelson et al) then decided it was time to regroup and allow the Tories to take the drastic measures required, thinking that they would very soon be returned to power with a new leader..........but maybe Cameron has been even more cute by fixing the term of this parliament for 5 years?
Well bully for Labour, they stuck with their principles. The same principles that see them now in the political wilderness. The same principles that now have Britain in a state of near bankruptcy.
A party void of ideas and now any power at all.
A party that frankly looks finished as they are now third in the power stakes.
Brown knew his time was up the day after the election, it was only a matter of time before he quit or was pushed.
Miliband looks set to win the title of Labour leader, good luck to him.....he will need all the luck he can get.
Never can accuse Labour of not sticking to principles, even though they have been hugely blinkered ones!
i don`t think labour needed to compromise any thing who was going to get into bed with a party that
lost the election
still could not form a majority government even if the lib/dems joined them
join a party the was prepared to sacrifice its leader just to regain power (desperation)
or get into bed with a party that although it knew the countrys debt was out of control still continued to spend more than it received
as a curious question
i see thatcher and the pits constantly bounded on here
did thatcher close the pits out of spite or where the pits a non viable business with an inability to see off cheaper competition dunno
Quote by Lizaleanrob
Did Thatcher close the pits out of spite or were the pits a non viable business with an inability to see off cheaper competition dunno

Both.
Many of the pits were unproductive because of the difficulty of mining them....narrow seams and abrupt changes of direction/level of the seam.
Most of the competition came/comes-from open-cast mines which do not have the problems and cost of deep mining .
But you also need to dwell on the fact that most of the sources of our energy are dependent upon other countries....coal, oil and gas. Even uranium.
In the future (the near future) we are going to suffer, much more than now, from that basic fact. As will the rest of Europe.
Quote by Max777
But there seems to be very little comment on the Labour party's apparent good faith in refusing to water down their election promises in order to get into bed with the Libdems.
So much for Gordon Browns supposed clinging on to power whatever the cost

Gordon Brown would have clung to power given the chance, I don't think there was any doubt about that but Labour have been very cute. By opening negotiations with the LibDems, they were able to remove Brown, as Clegg had publicly stated he wouldn't work with Brown. Brown allowed himself to be persuaded to quit a little to early in the proceedings. Anyone who believes that he quit of his own volition is living in cloud cuckoo land.
The rest of the Labour hierarchy ( Mandelson et al) then decided it was time to regroup and allow the Tories to take the drastic measures required, thinking that they would very soon be returned to power with a new leader..........but maybe Cameron has been even more cute by fixing the term of this parliament for 5 years?
I'm sure you believe this, but do you have any evidence for it? Your reasoning appears to owe more to Rolf Harris's paintbrush than Occams's razor.
Quote by Lizaleanrob
i don`t think labour needed to compromise any thing who was going to get into bed with a party that
lost the election
still could not form a majority government even if the lib/dems joined them
join a party the was prepared to sacrifice its leader just to regain power (desperation)
or get into bed with a party that although it knew the countrys debt was out of control still continued to spend more than it received
as a curious question
i see thatcher and the pits constantly bounded on here
did thatcher close the pits out of spite or where the pits a non viable business with an inability to see off cheaper competition dunno

Spite.
Next?
Greed.
Her principal advisor on nationalized industries was Nicholas Ridley. Closing pits was the opportunity for a massive expansion of the environmental disaster that is open cast mining. The Ridley estates near here contain some of the most massive open cast vulture pits in the UK.
Dogma.
Thatcher thought you should apply free market disciplines to every industry. The wisdom of this is illustrated in the way that power generation was switched from an efficient but not very transportable energy source (coal) to an efficient but very transportable but scarce resource - north sea gas. Every thime you see a scare story in the papers about Britain running out of gas remember it was Thatcher who decided to abandon coal as an energy source for power generation and replace it with gas.
Up the coast form here is a terminal that imports coal from abroad for power stations. It's on top of a coal mine that Thatcher closed with millions of tons of productive coal still in the ground that could have been mined cheaply and efficiently. What's more, since the pit runs under an estuary an the north sea there's no other way of getting the coal out unless we figure out how to burn it underground or to turn it into gas. The notion that scarce resources should be treated in the same way as consumer goods is Chicago school voodoo of the worst sort, and we've been paying the price in highe energy prices ever since thatcher so generously liberalized the energy market.
Quote by awayman
But there seems to be very little comment on the Labour party's apparent good faith in refusing to water down their election promises in order to get into bed with the Libdems.
So much for Gordon Browns supposed clinging on to power whatever the cost

Gordon Brown would have clung to power given the chance, I don't think there was any doubt about that but Labour have been very cute. By opening negotiations with the LibDems, they were able to remove Brown, as Clegg had publicly stated he wouldn't work with Brown. Brown allowed himself to be persuaded to quit a little to early in the proceedings. Anyone who believes that he quit of his own volition is living in cloud cuckoo land.
The rest of the Labour hierarchy ( Mandelson et al) then decided it was time to regroup and allow the Tories to take the drastic measures required, thinking that they would very soon be returned to power with a new leader..........but maybe Cameron has been even more cute by fixing the term of this parliament for 5 years?
I'm sure you believe this, but do you have any evidence for it? Your reasoning appears to owe more to Rolf Harris's paintbrush than Occams's razor.
I do indeed believe this and Mr Harris is a much finer artist than you give him credit for being!! wink
Quote by Kaznkev
Staggers, i agree,but people had swallowed a distorted view of Gordon Brown rather than thinking for themselves.
labour knew morally and ethically they had not won, there behaviour since the election showed some are unable to consider facts and prefer to believe whatever Murdoch tells them.

Kaz, I find your opening paragraph quite offensive. Many, many people HAVE thought for themselves, me included, and have not swallowed any distorted view of Gordon Brown. We have formed our own view of the man over the past 13 years of his political influence.
If Labour did know that they had lost the election both ethically and morally, why did Brown stand in Downing Street and declare that they were going to attempt to form a coalition with the LibDems and that he was going to stay around and oversee its implementation? He obviously believed that at that time. In the immediate aftermath of the election, the only 2 Labour politicians who stated that Labour had lost the election were David Plunkett and John Reid, all other Labour politicians were saying no one party had won, which in political speak has an entirely different meaning.
Quote by awayman
Chicago school voodoo of the worst sort

That sounds like it should be an exciting new variant of techno for me to get down to.
Quote by awayman

i see thatcher and the pits constantly bounded on here
did thatcher close the pits out of spite or where the pits a non viable business with an inability to see off cheaper competition dunno

Spite.
Next?
Greed.
Nicholas Ridley
Quote by Kaznkev
Also the fact that foreign coal was heavily subsidised by their governments,so British coal was not being sold on a level playing field.
But many economically productive pits were earmarked for closure,so i go for spite.

Yeah that's the badger: our mining industry was the most efficient and technologically advanced in Europe, ie, pretty much anywhere. That's one reason why people were so astonished that she was trying to close it. The problem was that all the other countries in Europe subsidised their mining industry, because they recognised the wider benefits to their economies: employment (ie more income tax, less unemployment benefit paid out); energy security; and the fact that all fossil fuel resources are consumable and frankly, they run out, so it's silly to throw them away.
But because free market dogma essentially rules out any kind of joined up or long term thinking (because it's all about the cash profit ONE person or company can make in one financial cycle) the pits were deemed less profitable than other alternatives. Even though actually by spreading the load a little bit we would all have ended up richer.
And the miner's union was very strong and very socialist and she hated unions and socialists and anyone who stood up to her, so she always had it in for them anyway.
One final note is that she was denying at the time that she was trying to close all of the pits. Scargill (for all his faults) had a list of pits that he was fond of waving, that he said was her hit list; the Sun called him mental; she said she was never going to shut them all down. All gone now.
Quote by Kaznkev
Staggers, i agree,but people had swallowed a distorted view of Gordon Brown rather than thinking for themselves.
labour knew morally and ethically they had not won, there behaviour since the election showed some are unable to consider facts and prefer to believe whatever Murdoch tells them.

Kaz, I find your opening paragraph quite offensive. Many, many people HAVE thought for themselves, me included, and have not swallowed any distorted view of Gordon Brown. We have formed our own view of the man over the past 13 years of his political influence.
If Labour did know that they had lost the election both ethically and morally, why did Brown stand in Downing Street and declare that they were going to attempt to form a coalition with the LibDems and that he was going to stay around and oversee its implementation? He obviously believed that at that time. In the immediate aftermath of the election, the only 2 Labour politicians who stated that Labour had lost the election were David Plunkett and John Reid, all other Labour politicians were saying no one party had won, which in political speak has an entirely different meaning.
Because Nick Clegg phoned him,he was prime minister and he had every right to talk to whoever wanted to form a government with him.
So you have formed a view of a man , from where?
So what of the clandestine meetings between Mandleson etc and the LibDems before Clegg made the formal call to Brown?
In answer to your question, from life in general over the past 13 years, what about you?
To be fair here, I have to say it is only right, that the party that gained the most votes, was given the opportunity to form the new goverrnment as they have. Gordan Brown however did not cling onto power. In fact quite the opposite. He was asked by Mr Clegg to hold on whilst he negotiated. In the end Gordan Brown was on the phone to Mr Clegg who asked for another 24 hours. Mr Brown told him, enough is enough, I'm off to see the queen, so you best sort it out in the next hour. This is soon to shown in a documenty" the last few hours" to be shown on BBC1. There was preview on Radio 5 other day.
The big question here, really is how come David Cameron was on the goal line, with the ball at his feet, yet still couldn't get the ball all the way over the line to score. The government was suppossed to be the most unpopular goverment since Thather with an inept leader, presideing over the deepest recession in decades. yet he still couldn't get a majority ????
Quote by deancannock
To be fair here, I have to say it is only right, that the party that gained the most votes, was given the opportunity to form the new goverrnment as they have. Gordan Brown however did not cling onto power. In fact quite the opposite. He was asked by Mr Clegg to hold on whilst he negotiated. In the end Gordan Brown was on the phone to Mr Clegg who asked for another 24 hours. Mr Brown told him, enough is enough, I'm off to see the queen, so you best sort it out in the next hour. This is soon to shown in a documenty" the last few hours" to be shown on BBC1. There was preview on Radio 5 other day.
The big question here, really is how come David Cameron was on the goal line, with the ball at his feet, yet still couldn't get the ball all the way over the line to score. The government was suppossed to be the most unpopular goverment since Thather with an inept leader, presideing over the deepest recession in decades. yet he still couldn't get a majority ????

Yes to everything here :-)
Maybe IF mad dog Scargill had not taken on Thatcher, just like they did with Heath, the mines and the industry would not have suffered as much?
They brought down another Government but they were this time dealing with a leader who had some bollocks...Thatcher.
The industry never recovered form those strikes, and the miners union collapsed because of it along with thousands of jobs.
Scargill and his mad ambition to oust Thatcher backfired on him, and the people who followed his ideals of holding the Government to ransom.
For that I am thankful.
Even to this day Scargill's hate of Thatcher still eats away at him.
His members who lost their jobs and their industry only have him to thank for it. Thankfully there are only a couple of union nutters left now, who think they can hold everyone to ransom, but those days are drawing to a close.
Scargill 0 Thatcher 38 lol
28.4% of the workforce was the last count of union members.
Since not many people in small employers are members of unions, and since most of the manufacturing is done abroad, I consider that quite reasonable in these times.
The unions are also physically larger due to amalgamation.
The largest employer in the country also has the largest amount of union members: The government.
Almost all medium/large employers have agreements with unions....
Although that doesn't stop many (particularly in the construction/construction-engineering industry) from paying others to illegally gather, hold and disseminate information about union members and other employees (to the employers extreme financial cost ).
Most small employers are also small-time criminals (vat/tax fraud...H&S offences etc)
The thing is I did see a libdem representative saying the reason talks with labour had broken down was their refusal to compromise their core promises.
Oh and the pits....if it wasn't just idiot spite why were productive profitable pits closed ?

Quote by Kaznkev
Staggers, i agree,but people had swallowed a distorted view of Gordon Brown rather than thinking for themselves.
labour knew morally and ethically they had not won, there behaviour since the election showed some are unable to consider facts and prefer to believe whatever Murdoch tells them.

I think you may have a point Kaz, although I had formed my own opinion of Brown I had for gotten he is a human being. I realised this while watching his resignation, I found myself being very moved and feeling guilty for some of my thoughts and words.
However, on the OP, the fact that they would not bend is one of the many problems I see in Labour. When ever a commentator put a publicly held, and popular view to Tony Blair he would say, "I hear what your saying but". In other words I am right and you are wrong. They have stopped listening to their employer, the public.
One more point is that Thatcher is no longer the leader of the Tory party
Quote by Staggerlee_BB
The thing is I did see a libdem representative saying the reason talks with labour had broken down was their refusal to compromise their core promises.
Oh and the pits....if it wasn't just idiot spite why were productive profitable pits closed ?


ANy man who quotes the magnificent Dave Douglass gets big reps from me - Nice one Staggers...
lol
Quote by Staggerlee_BB
The thing is I did see a libdem representative saying the reason talks with labour had broken down was their refusal to compromise their core promises.
Oh and the pits....if it wasn't just idiot spite why were productive profitable pits closed ?


:lol:
The links you provide are not really one sided........are they? :lol: :lol: :lol:
The pits were closed and Thatcher won............simples.
So much for the unions eh?
Quote by kentswingers777
lol The thing is I did see a libdem representative saying the reason talks with labour had broken down was their refusal to compromise their core promises.
Oh and the pits....if it wasn't just idiot spite why were productive profitable pits closed ?


:lol:
The links you provide are not really one sided........are they? :lol: :lol: :lol:
The pits were closed and Thatcher won............simples.
So much for the unions eh?
I am not an expert and happily stand to be corrected, and this is very simplified, but I was lead to believe that some pits were no longer viable so British coal wished to close them, Scargil and his union tried to keep them open with the end result being the loss of all the pits dunno
Simples Blue only Scargill then decided ( when there was no secret ballot )to take the Government on.
His intention was not to try and save the pits or the members jobs, but to defeat Thatcher at ANY cost.
He cared only for his own selfish way, and because of that stance miners were pitted against each other....Father against Son on many occasions.
Thatchers Government were not going to be brought down like Heaths was.
Scargill was eventually seen for what he was, a nasty spiteful pathetic man, whose personnel vendetta against Thatcher cost him and more importantly his members, their jobs ands their future.
Have I gone off topic? Appologies to the op if I have.
blue,
depends how you look at these things. This area had 6 pits. Littleton colliery was the most productive in europe !! They were all closed by Thatcher. Hundreds of people on the dole....lives shattered...families torn apart. So lets firstly say more to it, that just being viable.
Now the fact was there was cheaper coal at that time avilable from Poland. This is becasue, they were not part of the EU at the time, and so paid very poor wages to their workers, and also the polish government subsidised the cost. Their view being, it was cheaper to subsidise the coal, than to put hunderds of people out of work, and pay hem unemployment benefit !!
Now thats not to say, Scargill was an angel. But he warned that there wasn't just a list of 15 pits to be closed, but that every one would be. People poured scorn on that at the time. History shows he was actually correct.
Fact is....the miners strike helped to bring down Ted Heath's tory government in the 70's. Mrs Thatcher was getting her own back.I call that spite myself. But at what human cost.
Maybe this a little close to home for me, but its an example of what happens. My brother 35 at the time, worked down the pit, from the day he left school at 16. He lost his job, when the pit was closed. He felt a failure ; because he could no longer provide for his family he felt he no longer was of use. He tried to get a job, but he had no skill base. 6 monthes later he committed suicide, leaving a family and 3 kids. Thats the human cost !!!
A brilliant artical....read and enjoy and then reflect on the truth.

" When the government announced its plan in March 1984 to close 20 pits with the loss of 20,000 jobs, Arthur Scargill, the Marxist NUM president, brought 56,000 Yorkshire miners out on strike. Ignoring calls for a national ballot, he then called upon his 180,000 members, who worked 170 pits, to down tools. Overnight, communities were divided. In Nottinghamshire the miners ignored his call. Mr Scargill's response was to send in the flying pickets. What followed was a year-long bloody confrontation: striking miner against working miner, picket against police ".
Of course Scargill did not have his own secret agendas....my arse
Quote by deancannock
blue,
depends how you look at these things. This area had 6 pits. Littleton colliery was the most productive in europe !! They were all closed by Thatcher. Hundreds of people on the dole....lives shattered...families torn apart. So lets firstly say more to it, that just being viable.
Now the fact was there was cheaper coal at that time avilable from Poland. This is becasue, they were not part of the EU at the time, and so paid very poor wages to their workers, and also the polish government subsidised the cost. Their view being, it was cheaper to subsidise the coal, than to put hunderds of people out of work, and pay hem unemployment benefit !!
Now thats not to say, Scargill was an angel. But he warned that there wasn't just a list of 15 pits to be closed, but that every one would be. People poured scorn on that at the time. History shows he was actually correct.
Fact is....the miners strike helped to bring down Ted Heath's tory government in the 70's. Mrs Thatcher was getting her own back.I call that spite myself. But at what human cost.
Maybe this a little close to home for me, but its an example of what happens. My brother 35 at the time, worked down the pit, from the day he left school at 16. He lost his job, when the pit was closed. He felt a failure ; because he could no longer provide for his family he felt he no longer was of use. He tried to get a job, but he had no skill base. 6 monthes later he committed suicide, leaving a family and 3 kids. Thats the human cost !!!

Sorry for your huge loss Dean
Thank you for the clarification, I have seen in life that the human cost comes way below the importance of money, so viability is probably the only consideration that was looked at. How long can some thing be subsidised? If the pits had been subsidised, how long before Europe increased their subsidies to compete.
This is a very emotive and still raw subject and feel I am not qualified to contribute to this one much further.
Excellent post by Dean, one that was written from the heart and doesn't show bitterness despite his loss.
The human element to econmics and politics is often forgotten and masked over by those trying to score political points.
That post in itself says more about the destruction of not just an industry but communities and families than any link to the Murdoch press could.
Quote by Suede-head
Excellent post by Dean, one that was written from the heart and doesn't show bitterness despite his loss.
The human element to econmics and politics is often forgotten and masked over by those trying to score political points.
That post in itself says more about the destruction of not just an industry but communities and families than any link to the Murdoch press could.

:thumbup:
Quote by kentswingers777
lol The thing is I did see a libdem representative saying the reason talks with labour had broken down was their refusal to compromise their core promises.
Oh and the pits....if it wasn't just idiot spite why were productive profitable pits closed ?


:lol:
The links you provide are not really one sided........are they? :lol: :lol: :lol:
The pits were closed and Thatcher won............simples.
So much for the unions eh?
Given that one is fairly critical of the way the Selby pit developed, and points out it's spiral into possibly becoming an unproductive pit and the other is a link to the home page of the national mining museum, I'd say no, not particularly one sided but then again I read them.
Quote by kentswingers777
Simples Blue only Scargill then decided ( when there was no secret ballot )to take the Government on.
His intention was not to try and save the pits or the members jobs, but to defeat Thatcher at ANY cost.
He cared only for his own selfish way, and because of that stance miners were pitted against each other....Father against Son on many occasions.
Thatchers Government were not going to be brought down like Heaths was.
Scargill was eventually seen for what he was, a nasty spiteful pathetic man, whose personnel vendetta against Thatcher cost him and more importantly his members, their jobs ands their future.
Have I gone off topic? Appologies to the op if I have.

None of this has any basis in truth.
Scargill was bound by previous decisions that prevented him from going to a ballot.
The empty rhetoric you indulge in demonstrates that you know nothing about what happened in 1984-5.
Never mind the ops - you should apologize to those of us who lived through the strike for your vacuous misrepresentation of the truth of what we experienced. Thatcher threatened to destroy the mining industry so her friends could make more money, and guess what happened? She succeeded.
Quote by Staggerlee_BB
The thing is I did see a libdem representative saying the reason talks with labour had broken down was their refusal to compromise their core promises.
Oh and the pits....if it wasn't just idiot spite why were productive profitable pits closed ?


thanks
interesting banners
Quote by awayman
Simples Blue only Scargill then decided ( when there was no secret ballot )to take the Government on.
His intention was not to try and save the pits or the members jobs, but to defeat Thatcher at ANY cost.
He cared only for his own selfish way, and because of that stance miners were pitted against each other....Father against Son on many occasions.
Thatchers Government were not going to be brought down like Heaths was.
Scargill was eventually seen for what he was, a nasty spiteful pathetic man, whose personnel vendetta against Thatcher cost him and more importantly his members, their jobs ands their future.
Have I gone off topic? Appologies to the op if I have.

None of this has any basis in truth.
Scargill was bound by previous decisions that prevented him from going to a ballot.
The empty rhetoric you indulge in demonstrates that you know nothing about what happened in 1984-5.
Never mind the ops - you should apologize to those of us who lived through the strike for your vacuous misrepresentation of the truth of what we experienced. Thatcher threatened to destroy the mining industry so her friends could make more money, and guess what happened? She succeeded.
Oh dear....an American spell check....tut tut. I hate the bastardisation of the English language.
Your above comments prove to me that it is YOU that know nothing of the build up to the strike.
Rhetoric? What a favorite word it seems on here.
Those comments are exactly the kind of thing Scargill would have said, and does not suprise ( not suprize )me in the slightest that people on here have those same deluded views.
Though I am not going to argue with you or even bicker with you, BUT.....you want to take it to pm be my guest.