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Quote by starlightcouple
Does anyone know how much the league against cruel sports contributes to the RSPCA?

I suspected nothing GnV, but as I was unsure I telephoned them. The answer is nowt, nothing as they are a completely different entity to the RSPCA.
Now your next question may be what mine was whilst I was on the phone. I also asked why the league against cruel sports was not involved with the recent case or has not prosecuted anyone for fox hunting. Their answer was that they do not have the financial resources that the RSPCA have.
But if anyone is interested in this fantastic charity , and may want to make a very worthwhile donation this is their website.

Yes two separate entities, in fact one was once a great institution, one of the founders of the RSPA was Colonel Richard Martin, a noted fox-hunter and MP, whose Martin's Act of 1822 against the cruel treatment of cattle was the first animal welfare Bill passed in Britain, if not the world.
Where has LACS has done little for animal welfare and is confused by animal rights wink
Quote by Bluefish2009
Does anyone know how much the league against cruel sports contributes to the RSPCA?

I suspected nothing GnV, but as I was unsure I telephoned them. The answer is nowt, nothing as they are a completely different entity to the RSPCA.
Now your next question may be what mine was whilst I was on the phone. I also asked why the league against cruel sports was not involved with the recent case or has not prosecuted anyone for fox hunting. Their answer was that they do not have the financial resources that the RSPCA have.
But if anyone is interested in this fantastic charity , and may want to make a very worthwhile donation this is their website.

Yes two separate entities, in fact one was once a great institution, one of the founders of the RSPA was Colonel Richard Martin, a noted fox-hunter and MP, whose Martin's Act of 1822 against the cruel treatment of cattle was the first animal welfare Bill passed in Britain, if not the world.
Where has LACS has done little for animal welfare and is confused by animal rightswink
Thanks for that Blue.
It would seem that the RSPCA has also lost its way here. I could understand it if LACS had taken up the case, but not the RSPCA. I think many donators will be horrified that the cash they handed over has been misapplied. If I was the exec of my Aunt Able's will at the point of donating her not inconsiderable millions to the RSPCA in accordance with her final wishes, I think I would have a re-think and offer it to Battersea Dogs Home instead.
There again, if t was my own money, it would go to the PDSA.
Quote by GnV
There again, if t was my own money, it would go to the PDSA.

PDSA GnV?
Remember all those benefit cheats and scroungers get to use their services for free GnV. Now I would have thought you of all people would have never given your money to a place like that. :bounce:
Quote by starlightcouple

There again, if t was my own money, it would go to the PDSA.

PDSA GnV?
Remember all those benefit cheats and scroungers get to use their services for free GnV. Now I would have thought you of all people would have never given your money to a place like that. :bounce:
Well, I suppose a free vet service keeps them out of the NHS lol
Quote by Trevaunance
The day we count the cost of prosecuting those that have committed offences of any kind is the day we should open all the prison doors.
These convictions must be brought against people who commit such acts.
However, I do believe that we should look at such costs, there must be a better way of financing such cases, cruelty against animals, cruelty against children and the like.

That's a contradiction surely? Shall we open the prison doors now? lol
Quote by MidsCouple24
It is not so unlike Doctors, they can earn more in private practice than they can with the NHS I believe, but am I right in thinking that they have to allocate a certain amount of time to NHS patients, (I could be totally wrong but it wouldn't be a bad idea)

It's complicated, but essentially if they work in an NHS setting they have to carry out a proportionate level of NHS work. If they are working in a solely private setting, for example a private GP, they have no obligation to the NHS at all.
I don't believe so, I believe we have to prosecute those that break the law, I believe that we are looking at the cost of convicting criminals too often, I believe that we look at the cost of punishment too often, that sometimes sentances are given based on cost not on what is deserved, not just with animal cruelty but in all cases.
I think that Home Office guidelines deter some judges from metering out reasonable sentances because the cost of putting someone in prison is taken into account, the overcrowding in prisons is taken into account.
I believe that if some of the Policing funds were put into building new prisons to house more inmates that situation would not be so rife, at the moment it is catch 22, the Police need a lot of money to police the criminals, however a very high percentage of crime is committed by repeat offenders, if more money was put into rehabilitation and more prisons there would not be so many repeat offenders on the streets and the Police would not need as much.
How many times do we hear of someone with 20+ previous convictions being given a warning or community service ?
But if we are not going to do anything about the huge cost of prosecutions and pass down inadequate sentances or not try people at all based purely on cost then we might as well give up and let them all go.
Thankyou for the informative piece about Doctors, I understand that now.
Still think Judges, Barristers and Lawyers should give part of thier time for free or for minimum hourly wage for charities as part of being able to work within our judicial system.
Quote by Bluefish2009
David Cameron's hunt convicted as judge questions RSPCA's £330,000 prosecution costs
Is it moraly correct for the RSPCA to spend nearly £300,000 of donated, charitable money on a prosecution?
Barnfield, of Chipping Norton, Oxfordshire, was fined £250 for each charge, totalling £1,000, and ordered to pay costs of £2,000. Sumner, of Salperton, Gloucestershire, was fined a total of £1,800 with costs of £2,500. The Heythrop Hunt Limited was fined a total of £4000 with £15,000 costs. All three were ordered to pay a £15 victim surcharge.

I believe what the RSPCA have done to be immoral, my thinking falls more in line with what the judge had to say
A judge has questioned the “quite staggering” amount of money the RSPCA spent pursuing the prosecution of a hunt, saying that the money may have been more “usefully employed”.
The District Judge Tim Pattinson made the comments after the charity’s successful prosecution of the Prime Minister’s local hunt.
He fined the Heythrop hunt and its members £6,800, but then rounded on the RSPCA for laying out £330,000 to bring the case – 10 times the defence costs.
“Members of the public may feel that RSPCA funds can be more usefully employed,” he told Oxford Magistrates' Court.
“It is not for me to express an opinion but I merely flag it up but I do find it to be a quite staggering figure.”

what I find totally wrong is that these hunts still go out actively hunting foxes, when they know its against the law. So long as the law gives out such small fines, they will continue, as its just pin money to most of them convicted. They should be made to pay the cost of the court, and the RSPCA's costs.....maybe then they might think twice !!!
I think this public interest malarky is a red herring. I dont think the case was ever reviewed by the CPS. Furthermore the cost of the prosecution do not appear to feature in the CPS criteria for public interest.
I like the idea of recovering as much of the costs as possible from criminals.
Quote by Ben_Minx
I think this public interest malarky is a red herring. I dont think the case was ever reviewed by the CPS. Furthermore the cost of the prosecution do not appear to feature in the CPS criteria for public interest.
I like the idea of recovering as much of the costs as possible from criminals.

absolutely 100% agree
Quote by Trevaunance
The day we count the cost of prosecuting those that have committed offences of any kind is the day we should open all the prison doors.
These convictions must be brought against people who commit such acts.
However, I do believe that we should look at such costs, there must be a better way of financing such cases, cruelty against animals, cruelty against children and the like.

That's a contradiction surely? Shall we open the prison doors now? lol
In your first statement you are intimating that we shouldn't count the cost of prosecuting alledged criminals, but in your second you are saying that we should!
Quote by Ben_Minx
I think this public interest malarky is a red herring. I dont think the case was ever reviewed by the CPS. Furthermore the cost of the prosecution do not appear to feature in the CPS criteria for public interest.
I like the idea of recovering as much of the costs as possible from criminals.

I think your correct, I dont belive the RSPCA did share there evedance with the police or CPS.
When RSPCA loses a case, costs are frequently paid from state funds, What I would like to see this practice stopped and like most people, they pay there own cost's. This may make them less gung-ho in the future
Quote by Bluefish2009
I think this public interest malarky is a red herring. I dont think the case was ever reviewed by the CPS. Furthermore the cost of the prosecution do not appear to feature in the CPS criteria for public interest.
I like the idea of recovering as much of the costs as possible from criminals.

I think your correct, I dont belive the RSPCA did share there evedance with the police or CPS.
When RSPCA loses a case, costs are frequently paid from state funds, What I would like to see this practice stopped and like most people, they pay there own cost's. This may make them less gung-ho in the future
They were not gung - ho in this case....they were 100% correct and successful. Blue maybe its the hunt you should be condeming for blatantly flaunting the law for their own amuzement !!
Quote by deancannock
what I find totally wrong is that these hunts still go out actively hunting foxes, when they know its against the law. So long as the law gives out such small fines, they will continue, as its just pin money to most of them convicted. They should be made to pay the cost of the court, and the RSPCA's costs.....maybe then they might think twice !!!

I guess that is one of those things, many people break the speed limit and they know full well they are breaking the law, but they continue to do so, with the risk of taking human life because of there selfish actions.
However, I am sure most hunts will be hunting within the law
Quote by deancannock
I think this public interest malarky is a red herring. I dont think the case was ever reviewed by the CPS. Furthermore the cost of the prosecution do not appear to feature in the CPS criteria for public interest.
I like the idea of recovering as much of the costs as possible from criminals.

I think your correct, I dont belive the RSPCA did share there evedance with the police or CPS.
When RSPCA loses a case, costs are frequently paid from state funds, What I would like to see this practice stopped and like most people, they pay there own cost's. This may make them less gung-ho in the future
They were not gung - ho in this case....they were 100% correct and successful. Blue maybe its the hunt you should be condeming for blatantly flaunting the law for their own amuzement !!
Often they are gung-ho and loose cases because they either misinterpret the law or just get the facts wrong, and more often or not, we end up paying for there mistake
I condemn any and all lawlessness
For me, this was more about a charity miss-using it funds, in my view
A simple look at the RSPCA website at the top of the page -
The Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals - the UK's largest animal welfare charity. We rescue, rehabilitate and rehome hundreds of thousands of animals each year in England and Wales. We offer advice on caring for all animals and campaign to change laws that will protect them, which we will enforce through prosecution.
So any one donating to the RSPCA should clearly know from the start that their donation can be used to fund any of those aims.
In this particular case RSPCA Chief Executive, Gavin Grant, said: We are being true to our 188 year history of fighting for justice for animals.
Whether they should of funded a private prosecution shouldn't come as any surprise, it's been doing that for much of it's history. Today it was Heythrop Hunt whereas in times past it's been the shocking conduct of the Smithfield meat market, to punish cat skinners, men who used dogs as draft animals, and to alleviate the misery of horses.
The fact that some one was breaking the Law, however it may be classified as an offence it's still the Law, whilst the CPS has proven pretty in-effective since the Hunting Act was introduced, so they took the position open to anyone or organisation and undertook a private prosecution.
A simple case of standing by your stated beliefs and convictions as well as being wholly in line with what they've been doing for generations, namely we will enforce through prosecution. Just that in this case it got more publicity than the many other less high profile convictions it secures, or attempts to privately prosecute every year.
Hats off to them
Here's a little background that may help understand why the CPS decided not to prosecute. I have no idea why they did decide not to pursue the case though.
The CPS defines public interest as: 'Public interest' means that the crime is important to people in society and most people would want it to go to court. Hmm thats taught me something as I always believed it meant 'in the interest of the public' not 'that the public is interested in it'. Well you live and learn :jagsatwork:
The CPS criteria for deciding whether to prosecute is very long but its opening line states:
'A prosecution is more likely to be required if:
a conviction is likely to result in a significant sentence;'
But the maximum fine under the Hunting Act 2004 is £5000 and there is no scope for imprisonment.
As Ben quite rightly says the CPS doesn't take into account the likely costs of a trial, but it does say:
'A prosecution is less likely to be required if:
the court is likely to impose a nominal penalty;'
Quote by HnS
A simple look at the RSPCA website at the top of the page -
The Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals - the UK's largest animal welfare charity. We rescue, rehabilitate and rehome hundreds of thousands of animals each year in England and Wales. We offer advice on caring for all animals and campaign to change laws that will protect them, which we will enforce through prosecution.
So any one donating to the RSPCA should clearly know from the start that their donation can be used to fund any of those aims.
In this particular case RSPCA Chief Executive, Gavin Grant, said: We are being true to our 188 year history of fighting for justice for animals.
Whether they should of funded a private prosecution shouldn't come as any surprise, it's been doing that for much of it's history. Today it was Heythrop Hunt whereas in times past it's been the shocking conduct of the Smithfield meat market, to punish cat skinners, men who used dogs as draft animals, and to alleviate the misery of horses.
The fact that some one was breaking the Law, however it may be classified as an offence it's still the Law, whilst the CPS has proven pretty in-effective since the Hunting Act was introduced, so they took the position open to anyone or organisation and undertook a private prosecution.
A simple case of standing by your stated beliefs and convictions as well as being wholly in line with what they've been doing for generations, namely we will enforce through prosecution. Just that in this case it got more publicity than the many other less high profile convictions it secures, or attempts to privately prosecute every year.
Hats off to them

I guess we see things in a different light, I feel that a 3rd of a million on a prosecution, and no hope of recouping this money or any chance of real punishment for the perpetrators was outrageous.
I wonder how many dog/cats could have been saved/treated with that money. Not a single fox has been saved
i find that having the morals of an alley cat pays dividends when i do something nice as its not expected lol
Quote by Bluefish2009
A simple look at the RSPCA website at the top of the page -
The Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals - the UK's largest animal welfare charity. We rescue, rehabilitate and rehome hundreds of thousands of animals each year in England and Wales. We offer advice on caring for all animals and campaign to change laws that will protect them, which we will enforce through prosecution.
So any one donating to the RSPCA should clearly know from the start that their donation can be used to fund any of those aims.
In this particular case RSPCA Chief Executive, Gavin Grant, said: We are being true to our 188 year history of fighting for justice for animals.
Whether they should of funded a private prosecution shouldn't come as any surprise, it's been doing that for much of it's history. Today it was Heythrop Hunt whereas in times past it's been the shocking conduct of the Smithfield meat market, to punish cat skinners, men who used dogs as draft animals, and to alleviate the misery of horses.
The fact that some one was breaking the Law, however it may be classified as an offence it's still the Law, whilst the CPS has proven pretty in-effective since the Hunting Act was introduced, so they took the position open to anyone or organisation and undertook a private prosecution.
A simple case of standing by your stated beliefs and convictions as well as being wholly in line with what they've been doing for generations, namely we will enforce through prosecution. Just that in this case it got more publicity than the many other less high profile convictions it secures, or attempts to privately prosecute every year.
Hats off to them

I guess we see things in a different light, I feel that a 3rd of a million on a prosecution, and no hope of recouping this money or any chance of real punishment for the perpetrators was outrageous.
I wonder how many dog/cats could have been saved/treated with that money. Not a single fox has been saved
Blue,
Probably will differ, but they've stood by their convictions and it shouldn't come as a surprise to people being the point especially in their history when they spent circa £250,000 over 10 years on lobbying, legal investigation, drafting, etc. a Bill for legislation in over 100 years ago to get somethjing on the Statute Books that was very unpopular with some sections of the community and busineses at that time. (Let some one else do the maths at what £250,000 is worth in current day spend, and then at a time when they had a lot less money).
If people who have been giving donations to the RSPCA currently wish to differ with them over this expenditure, then they can do so and potentiall change their leadership and policies.
Anyone else it's just comment and discussion, as we do on the fourms, pubs, etc. around any other organisation from the RNLI to CLA.
I am happy that any money i donate to the RSPCA is used in this way.
Quote by HnS
If people who have been giving donations to the RSPCA currently wish to differ with them over this expenditure, then they can do so and potentiall change their leadership and policies.
Anyone else it's just comment and discussion, as we do on the fourms, pubs, etc. around any other organisation from the RNLI to CLA.

Well I can vote with my pocket, I no longer give them any money, makes me feel better wink
Quote by Bluefish2009
Well I can vote with my pocket, I no longer give them any money, makes me feel better wink

You give the RSPCA money Blue? The ROYAL SOCIETY FOR THE PROTECTION OF ANIMALS?, and yet you agree with the hunting of foxes? Is that just not a tad flipping hypocritical?? :doh:
If ever that was an own goal, that was it. Can you not see the irony there?
Quote by deancannock
I think this public interest malarky is a red herring. I dont think the case was ever reviewed by the CPS. Furthermore the cost of the prosecution do not appear to feature in the CPS criteria for public interest.
I like the idea of recovering as much of the costs as possible from criminals.

I think your correct, I dont belive the RSPCA did share there evedance with the police or CPS.
When RSPCA loses a case, costs are frequently paid from state funds, What I would like to see this practice stopped and like most people, they pay there own cost's. This may make them less gung-ho in the future
They were not gung - ho in this case....they were 100% correct and successful. Blue maybe its the hunt you should be condeming for blatantly flaunting the law for their own amuzement !!
you are indeed correct dean more tally ho in this case bolt
Quote by Lizaleanrob
I think this public interest malarky is a red herring. I dont think the case was ever reviewed by the CPS. Furthermore the cost of the prosecution do not appear to feature in the CPS criteria for public interest.
I like the idea of recovering as much of the costs as possible from criminals.

I think your correct, I dont belive the RSPCA did share there evedance with the police or CPS.
When RSPCA loses a case, costs are frequently paid from state funds, What I would like to see this practice stopped and like most people, they pay there own cost's. This may make them less gung-ho in the future
They were not gung - ho in this case....they were 100% correct and successful. Blue maybe its the hunt you should be condeming for blatantly flaunting the law for their own amuzement !!
you are indeed correct dean more tally ho in this case bolt
:laughabove:
Very good Rob lol
Quote by starlightcouple

Well I can vote with my pocket, I no longer give them any money, makes me feel better wink

You give the RSPCA money Blue? The ROYAL SOCIETY FOR THE PROTECTION OF ANIMALS?, and yet you agree with the hunting of foxes? Is that just not a tad flipping hypocritical?? :doh:
If ever that was an own goal, that was it. Can you not see the irony there?
Yes over the years I have given money the the RSPCA, in fact about 15 to 20 years ago I had a monthly DD/standing order to them.
You see at one time I thought they did a lot of good work, which of coarse at one time they did. As it happens as years go by, one learns otherwise, at times it would seam there motivation is not always animal welfare.
Where as my motivation is always animal welfare, any thing that I am involved with that may have any connection with animals, my first priority is the animals welfare, which must always take first place.
I source all my meat for the table to ensure it has had the best life, high welfare and as best life as possible for an animal bread for eating, whether that be through the butcher or game dealer.
As for that being hypocritical, I do not believe so. I am trying to avoid the hunting debate. As you know, and have already mentioned, has been done to death here. But suffice to say, I firmly believe fox control to be a necessary requirement, I also believe, on an animal welfare basis that hunting with hounds is the best method to do this.
The hunting act has done nothing for animal welfare, and has not saved a sigle fox, just left them at the mercy of many forms of creul death, and removed the only none wounding selective one.

And not a single fox saved dunno
Quote by deancannock
I believe they were right to spend the money.
It is not right that the RSPCA should have to bear the costs of these trials, if someone breaks into my house the law will take that person (if known) to court, the RSPCA should only have to give thier evidence to the CPA who should then take the culprit to trial. color]

Quote by Ben_Minx
I like the idea of recovering as much of the costs as possible from criminals.

I have to take issue with the above quotes, of coarse the guilty party must pay the cost's as is totally correct and proper.
The reason behind the cost (3rd of one million pounds) for the RSPCA case is they originally brought a total of 52 charges, but most were dropped, resulting in the costs for these having to be met by the charity its self.
The fines together amounted to £6,815, with prosecution costs of £19,500 to be paid by the defendants, as is right and proper
Probably why the CPS did not want to touch it, if they even got the chance.
Therefore in my view they were gung-ho in this case and wasted charity money, getting the law wrong and miss-reading the law has cost a lot of pets there lives
Why didn,t the guilty have to pay 325k?
Why weren't the hounds confiscated?
Was either matter mentioned in the summing up?
Quote by flower411
Why didn,t the guilty have to pay 325k?
Why weren't the hounds confiscated?
Was either matter mentioned in the summing up?

My understanding is that "costs" awarded against someone are the legal and court costs incurred. As far as I can tell, the £300 000 was the cost of the surveillance etc carried out to bring the prosecution.
Dunno about the dogs dunno
No they are legal cost's, as explained up there :laughabove:
"The reason behind the cost (3rd of one million pounds) for the RSPCA case is they originally brought a total of 52 charges, but most were dropped, resulting in the costs for these having to be met by the charity its self".
Just a few days ago Beverly Cuddy, the editor of Dogs Today magazine, said on BBC radio that the RSPCA couldn't uphold the Animal Welfare Act with regard puppy farming because, "they say they haven't got enough money to apply it."
Yet they can waste over £300,000 to bring 52 weak, and unprosecutable charges!!
I think you have been misinformed blue.
I think the RSPCA chose to drop some of the charges when the main ones were admitted to.
I think the magistrate awarded as much as the hunt could afford.
I still wonder why the hounds weren't confisctaed.
I do wish court records were published.
Quote by Ben_Minx
I think you have been misinformed blue.
I think the RSPCA chose to drop some of the charges when the main ones were admitted to.
I think the magistrate awarded as much as the hunt could afford.
I still wonder why the hounds weren't confisctaed.
I do wish court records were published.

Then please put me right then
Some info here;
On Monday in Oxford Magistrates' Court two men pleaded guilty to four charges, each under a minor piece of legislation which carries a maximum penalty of £5,000. Their company – one was an employee, the other a director – pleaded guilty to four identical offences. The judge fined one of the men £250 for each offence and the other £450. The company was handed four £1,000 fines.
You might think that is the end of a not-very-interesting story but you would be wrong, because the offence the two pleaded guilty to was breach of the Hunting Act and the company was the Heythrop Hunt Ltd.
If a prosecution involving a hunt was not enough to get media juices flowing, the Heythrop Hunt happens to be the only one based in David Cameron's constituency – and the Prime Minister is known to have hunted with the Heythrop hounds..
Such a coincidence was bound to put the story on the front pages but the fact that it was David Cameron's local hunt was no coincidence. The two men, Julian Barnfield and Richard Sumner, and the Heythrop Hunt were not investigated by the police and prosecuted by the CPS, but targeted by the RSPCA. Of the 175 packs of foxhounds in the UK, the RSPCA chose to bring only one private prosecution – against the Heythrop. Nor was this the first attempt to prosecute the Heythrop and huntsman Julian. In 2008 the CPS brought four charges against him based on allegations by animal rights activists, but that prosecution failed. Last year the RSPCA summonsed Julian on another two charges, but again the prosecution failed.
So this year the charity returned with a prosecution unprecedented since the Hunting Act came into force in 2005. It brought no fewer than 52 charges against the hunt, its masters and employees, detailing ten allegations of illegal hunting.
The trial was due to start last week and would have lasted until the end of February. The cost of defending the case would have been well into six figures and then there were the RSPCA's costs to consider. There was clearly a big legal team at work and it did not look cheap. The RSPCA did not use its in-house solicitors, but hired top-end city firm Fishburns, which was clearly ready to spend whatever it took to get a conviction.
Julian and Richard took a pragmatic decision that defending such a big case was practically and financially almost impossible. They accepted that on four occasions they had allowed hounds to chase foxes that had jumped up while they were hunting artificial trails. The RSPCA dropped all other charges against them and against two others who had originally been prosecuted.
District Judge Tim Pattinson noted that in 500 hours' hunting last season the four allegations totalled just 15 minutes of criminality. He then handed down the fines, at the low end of the scale, and came on to the sticky issue of costs.
The RSPCA had been extremely reluctant to divulge how much it had spent on the case and when the judge calculated the total it was clear why – it had spent £326, on solicitors, barristers and associated costs. The judge called the figure "staggering", asking whether "the public may feel RSPCA funds could be more usefully employed". While Judge Pattinson was only commenting on this case, his question has wider implications. Increasingly, the RSPCA is becoming not simply an organisation focused on protecting animal welfare, but a political campaigning group promoting an animal rights agenda. New chief executive Gavin Grant has already ruffled feathers with his threat to "name and shame" people involved in the badger cull trials and by calling for boycotts against farmers in cull areas. Judge Pattinson's question can equally be applied here: is such a campaign the best use of RSPCA funds? Indeed, is it in the best interests of animal welfare?
There is something monstrously hypocritical about such profligacy and waste when the RSPCA is placing fundraising advertisements , claiming that "animal cruelty, neglect and suffering are reaching unprecedented levels in modern times". Paying a handful of lawyers more than £300,000 for a few weeks' work which had no impact on animal welfare, months after announcing 130 redundancies to address deficits on its £115 million annual turnover, suggests an organisation that has lost its way.
RSPCA membership has plummeted to just 29,000 and, while it will not disappear overnight, unless it refocuses on real animal welfare issues rather than a political animal rights agenda it will progressively lose the support of the moderate majority.