Poll Tax - Why was it so bad?

7 Aug 2011

I was around at the time of the Poll Tax riots and could never really fathom out why there was so much opposition to it.
In my very simple mind everyone over 18 years old should contribute to the on going services provided by the Council. Ten people in a house create ten times as much rubbish as one person, five times as much as two people and pro rata the demand on services surely must increase as the population increases.
Just why was it perceived to be so unfair? It seemed perfectly sensible and logical to me.

7 Aug 2011

the poll tax WAS right. it is peeple who use things not properties. the only thing wrong with it was the amount peeple had to pay as a household.
i think the poll tax was right at the time and i still think the current system is wrong in taxing properties.
peeple use the amenities not properties.

7 Aug 2011

Quote by Too Hot
I was around at the time of the Poll Tax riots and could never really fathom out why there was so much opposition to it.
In my very simple mind everyone over 18 years old should contribute to the on going services provided by the Council. Ten people in a house create ten times as much rubbish as one person, five times as much as two people and pro rata the demand on services surely must increase as the population increases.
Just why was it perceived to be so unfair? It seemed perfectly sensible and logical to me.

it could be that some households went from paying £150 a year rates to £3000+ for poll tax overnight

7 Aug 2011

Quote by Lizaleanrob
I was around at the time of the Poll Tax riots and could never really fathom out why there was so much opposition to it.
In my very simple mind everyone over 18 years old should contribute to the on going services provided by the Council. Ten people in a house create ten times as much rubbish as one person, five times as much as two people and pro rata the demand on services surely must increase as the population increases.
Just why was it perceived to be so unfair? It seemed perfectly sensible and logical to me.

it could be that some households went from paying £150 a year rates to £3000+ for poll tax overnight
How could a house go from £150 to £3,000 - please explain how this could happen and why it then caused people to riot. From memory Poll tax per person was approximately half of what the "rates" were. I think mine was £650. So how could a household go from £150 to £3,000? Seems impossible when the lowest rates in the country were almost £1,000 per year and Rates, Poll Tax and now Council Tax all had social checks and balances in place for Students, Carers and the low paid.
I think you just made that up - cheeky.

7 Aug 2011

The Poll Tax wasn't pro rata'd to people's income therefore in effect people on low income would pay the same as someone on high income.
For the right this seemed fair .. you all used the same services so should all pay the same.
The Poll Tax riots for me signalled the end of the Thatcher regeime and was a step too far in her vision, for even some of her supporters.
A touch of compassion returned to politics and the swing back to a watered down capitalism in the form of "New Labour" had started

7 Aug 2011

example too hot.
at the time the poll tax came into being i worked with a guy who had three kids all working. let us say at that time his RATES were 400 pounds per yeer. the poll tax taxed every adult who was working. so they then were charging every adult in that house 400 pounds.
five adults all working paying 400 pounds works out at 2000 pounds insted of the 400 pounds he was paying. not fair the money but the pricipe of peeple paying for the services they use was fair. the money was the issue. as i hope my figures will show.

7 Aug 2011

Quote by Too Hot
I was around at the time of the Poll Tax riots and could never really fathom out why there was so much opposition to it.
In my very simple mind everyone over 18 years old should contribute to the on going services provided by the Council. Ten people in a house create ten times as much rubbish as one person, five times as much as two people and pro rata the demand on services surely must increase as the population increases.
Just why was it perceived to be so unfair? It seemed perfectly sensible and logical to me.

it could be that some households went from paying £150 a year rates to £3000+ for poll tax overnight
How could a house go from £150 to £3,000 - please explain how this could happen and why it then caused people to riot. From memory Poll tax per person was approximately half of what the "rates" were. I think mine was £650. So how could a household go from £150 to £3,000? Seems impossible when the lowest rates in the country were almost £1,000 per year and Rates, Poll Tax and now Council Tax all had social checks and balances in place for Students, Carers and the low paid.
I think you just made that up - cheeky.
our rates were no where near £1000 pound a year that transpired with the removal of poll tax and the introduction of council tax

7 Aug 2011

At the time of the introduction of the poll tax I was on an employment training scheme (extra tenner as we called it)..... I spent the next three years trying to explain to the council that although I was working I was claiming benefits and should therefore not be paying the full amount (the scheme lasted a year I still work at the company) I never received a correct bill I payed in total a little less than £100 in the 3 years or more that they kept trying to bill me ... had they been able at any time to workout how much I should have been paying I would have paid it (I don't as I've said believe in dodging tax)....The poll tax just didn't work
All taxation should be based on your ability to pay (i.e. income related) poll tax ,rates,council tax are all bollocks ...... yet again the LibDems had, in opposition, the answer ...a local income tax, but like all their other policies it seems to have been brushed aside in the rush to power

7 Aug 2011

Taxes worldwide, are based on your ability to pay. The poll tax took no account of this.
Also the idea the more people in a house means you use more rubbish does not always add up. The council will only allow one bin per household ( thou you do get that split now with garden refuse and re-cyle refuse). So even if you did have 4 in your household as opposed to 2 next door, you would still have the same amount of bins emptied. the only way you could actually equate this, would be to have scales, to weigh rubbish as its taken away. some councils have actually tried to impliment this, but that then lead to massive increase in fly tipping.
The poll tax riots were fueled because of the massive unemployment that was around at the time. The poll tax benifieted the mega rich the most. You lived in a mansion, you paid a high local tax. However under this new poll tax, it could of been reduced by £1000's. the lower level, would also have to be increased to compensate for this loss. People saw this as simply the rich getting richer....whilst the poor got poorer. It was the straw that broke the camels back, and thats why we saw such strong opposition to it.

7 Aug 2011

Quote by deancannock
The poll tax benifieted the mega rich the most.

you dont like the rich do you? still you are with good friends on here dean lol

7 Aug 2011

starlite...and you don't like anyone that puts forward a view !!! May I ask what your comment above adds to the argument and discussion, about Poll tax !!
To hot asked why people were so opposed to it. I stated my view why and in saying the poll tax benifieted the rich most was simply stating a fact.
Maybe you need to stop contantly sniping at anyone with a different view to yours...and respect them their view. This forum would be very boring if we all had the same views !!

7 Aug 2011

Quote by deancannock
starlite...and you don't like anyone that puts forward a view !!! May I ask what your comment above adds to the argument and discussion, about Poll tax !!
To hot asked why people were so opposed to it. I stated my view why and in saying the poll tax benifieted the rich most was simply stating a fact.
Maybe you need to stop contantly sniping at anyone with a different view to yours...and respect them their view. This forum would be very boring if we all had the same views !!

what he said :giggle::notes::cheers: bolt

:laughabove: innocent

:twisted: :twisted:

7 Aug 2011

i didnt object to poll tax i also think council tax is reasonable and fair tax
what i object to is the way councils treat the people its meant to serve at times and some of the wasteful way funds are spent
i also object to the fact they seem to have lost my last two foi requests rolleyes

never mind i might get them now they have been hand delivered to the relevant departments by a solicitor wink

7 Aug 2011

I don't believe that 3 people use 3 times as much in the way of services as 1 person. It doesn't cost less to lift a half-empty bin up to the bin-lorry than it costs to lift a full one. The street lights near the single person household are not dimmer than those near a 3 person household. Some will be pro-rate per body - police costs I suppose. But many aren't. It also paid no mind whatsoever to income. Your child turns 18 and tales a year out - you pay their poll tax - they can't, cos they don't get any money. They can't claim Job-seekers if they are signed up for Uni and waiting to go - say they are intermitted, they are still 'at Uni' as far as benefits are concerned but they don't get any Student Loan.

7 Aug 2011

Oh and it just occurred to me the reason why the poll tax was wrong ........Mrs Thatcher said it was right ..... end of debate I think :cheers:

7 Aug 2011

Quote by Lizaleanrob
i didnt object to poll tax i also think council tax is resonable and fair tax
what i object to is the way councils treat the people its ment to serve at times and some of the wastefull way funds are spent
i also object to the fact they seem to have lost my last two foi requests
never mind i might get them now they have been hand delviered to the relevent departments by a solicitor

It is nay, near impossible to make a tax that all would think was fair. Really its as you say, we would perhaps not begrude paying whatever the tax was, if we all felt it was spent well and without waste. Now there's a challenge for any government or council...spend our money wisely and without waste...yeah yeah..Utopia here we come..lol

7 Aug 2011

Quote by Staggerlee_BB
Oh and it just occurred to me the reason why the poll tax was wrong ........Mrs Thatcher said it was right ..... end of debate I think :cheers:

as always you let your guard down and show every one your ilogical reasons for your views. your hatred of M T.
end of debate indeed . cannot argue with a man who lets silly judgements on peeple rule there heads.
just for you mr staggers.

7 Aug 2011

Quote by starlightcouple
Oh and it just occurred to me the reason why the poll tax was wrong ........Mrs Thatcher said it was right ..... end of debate I think :cheers:

as always you let your guard down and show every one your ilogical reasons for your views. your hatred of M T.
end of debate indeed . cannot argue with a man who lets silly judgements on peeple rule there heads.
just for you mr staggers.

:laughabove::laughabove::laughabove::laughabove::laughabove::laughabove::laughabove::laughabove::laughabove::laughabove::laughabove::laughabove::laughabove::laughabove::laughabove::laughabove::laughabove:

7 Aug 2011

Quote by deancannock
i didnt object to poll tax i also think council tax is resonable and fair tax
what i object to is the way councils treat the people its ment to serve at times and some of the wastefull way funds are spent
i also object to the fact they seem to have lost my last two foi requests
never mind i might get them now they have been hand delviered to the relevent departments by a solicitor

It is nay, near impossible to make a tax that all would think was fair. Really its as you say, we would perhaps not begrude paying whatever the tax was, if we all felt it was spent well and without waste. Now there's a challenge for any government or council...spend our money wisely and without waste...yeah yeah..Utopia here we come..lol
a bit like creating mass social or council housing dean there are some that will be determined to turn it into a getto :doh:

7 Aug 2011

Quote by Lizaleanrob
i also object to the fact they seem to have lost my last two foi requests
never mind i might get them now they have been hand delivered to the relevant departments by a solicitor

Why didn't you just contact the FOI Commisioner or their office?
Dave_Notts

8 Aug 2011

Quote by Dave__Notts
i also object to the fact they seem to have lost my last two foi requests
never mind i might get them now they have been hand delivered to the relevant departments by a solicitor

Why didn't you just contact the FOI Commisioner or their office?
Dave_Notts
because i want the information before they have time to corrupt it dave i don't want time lost in bureaucracy :twisted:

8 Aug 2011

Quote by Staggerlee_BB
Oh and it just occurred to me the reason why the poll tax was wrong ........Mrs Thatcher said it was right ..... end of debate I think :cheers:

Staggers,
We found taking an instant dislike to her saved time wink

,
never mind how she wrecked our communities during '84 and there after.
The Community Charge, popularly known as the "poll tax" (not to be confused with the U.S. usage of poll tax to mean a tax that prevents voting if in arrears, in effect functioning as a voting fee), was a system of taxation introduced in replacement of the rates to part fund local government in Scotland from 1989, and England and Wales from 1990. It provided for a single flat-rate per-capita tax on every adult, at a rate set by the local authority.
The initial register was greatly irregular. It was based on the rates register for "owned" houses with lots of other unreliable data such as housing benefit recipients (In deed the rates revaluations of '78 and '83 were cancelled, leading to further irregularities)
The big collection issue was the 20/100% split. People in employment had to pay 100%, students and the registered unemployed paid 20%. The nature of the shared house market meant that not even the landlord knew exactly who was living there; tenants were replaced, and may have shared a "single" room with their partner. So the local council had no idea who was living where and when.
Central government imposed "collection targets".
The charge was opposed and people sought to protest through mass protests called by the All-Britain Anti-Poll Tax Federation to which the vast majority of local Anti Poll Tax Unions (APTUs) were affiliated. In Scotland, where the tax was implemented first, the APTUs called for mass non-payment. These calls rapidly gathered some support there and even more in England and Wales, even though non-payment meant that people could be prosecuted. The strategy was threefold.
- Firstly, non-payers were encouraged not to register.
- Secondly, they were encouraged to go to court and contest the Local Council's attempt to gain liability orders and, by doing so, clog up the courts.
- After a liability order was granted, non-compliance was the next step, refusal of admission to bailiffs, etc.
If this led to another court hearing - the first one at which the non-payer could be jailed - the non-payer usually did not turn up. Because of the huge number of non-payers, usual enforcement measures like liability order, bailiffs and even arrest warrants and committal hearings proved useless - there were not enough bailiffs, courts or prison cells to implement any of the orders granted. For example, in November 1990 South Yorkshire police said they were planning to refuse to arrest poll tax defaulters even when instructed to by the courts because it would be "physically impossible for the police because of the large number of defaulters."
The second year of the poll tax saw an increase in non-payment as people who had been wavering decided to join the non-payment campaign.
After the Poll Tax riots, Tory ministers contemplated abolition of the tax but knew that as a flagship Thatcherite policy its abolition would not be possible while Thatcher was still at the helm.
For this among other reasons, Thatcher was challenged by Michael Heseltine for the Conservative leadership. Although she prevailed by a margin of 50 votes, she narrowly missed the threshold to avoid a second vote, and on 22 November 1990 she resigned. All three of the contenders to succeed her pledged to abandon the tax.
The successful candidate, John Major, appointed his defeated rival Michael Heseltine to the post of Environment Secretary, responsible for replacing the Community Charge. In early 1991 the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Norman Lamont, announced a rise in Value Added Tax (VAT) from 15% to 17.5% to pay for a £140 reduction in the tax. The abolition of the Community Charge was announced on 21 March 1991.
By the time of the 1992 general election, legislation had been passed replacing Community Charge with the Council Tax from the start of the 1993/94 financial year, but the VAT rate of 17.5% remained despite abolition of the poll tax. The Council Tax strongly resembled the rating system that the Poll Tax had replaced. The main differences were that properties were placed in bands thereby capping the maximum amount, and it was levied on capital value rather than notional rental value of a property.
By the way, the Community Charge/poll tax was not implemented in Northern Ireland, which continued, as it still does as of 2011, to levy the rating system

8 Aug 2011

of course this had nothing to do with the withdrawal of the poll tax did it?

of course then and a bit like now if you do not agree with any thing then go a kick a few coppers in and smash a lot of windows and really just be a bit of a cun- for a day or two.
the poll tax was the right thing to do charge the peeple who use the services and not the houses.
for example if you had a house that had four full time working adults in it why should the house next door with only two working adults pay the same amount of money?
surely as a working adult should it not be the case that they help to pay for there local comunities?
maybe some on here wishes of a more up to date version of this

8 Aug 2011

Quote by starlightcouple
the poll tax was the right thing to do charge the peeple who use the services and not the houses.
for example if you had a house that had four full time working adults in it why should the house next door with only two working adults pay the same amount of money?
surely as a working adult should it not be the case that they help to pay for there local comunities?
]

So if I lived in a house with four adults, I pay half as much as next door....and I have one bin emptied
next door they have two adults...pay half as much as me..and have one bin emptied !!!
How is the equal !!
They both use same street lighting....oh and family of two uses the library and family of four doesn't !!
How is it equal that one family pays twice as much as the other !!
The only way it would work..in reality would be to weigh the bins on collection, charge for entry to the library, charge for walking down a street with lighting..etc etc...simply not workable !!
I am not saying the rates system is perfect, but takes into account your ability to pay, as all tax systems do worldwide.

8 Aug 2011

dean
do you think it is properties or peeple that use the services in your area?
as an example what has the price of a property got to do with using services? look at how they band those properties, why?

you could have a five bed house with two peeple living in it and another house with six adults in it all paying the same rate, that cannot be fair surely?
or as another example if you had a five bed house and let the other four rooms out to adults who are earning a good wage,and those peeple are using the services of that borough why should only the owner of that property be libel for council tax? should those peeple not pay something as well?
yes most taxes are unfair but not many as unfair as the council tax, or reely it should be called a property tax as that is what it is.
the poll tax should have been called a persons local tax. it was fair only the greedy amounts the councils set were wrong.

8 Aug 2011

Star,
a Tax dis-credited in the 90's and not one any Government, Party, Politician, or form of Local Government have publically considered in the last 20+ years, as far as we know.
Indeed if any Party announced that they would be looking to re-introduce a form of it now, they know that it would be political suicide.
Indeed it's interesting to follow you link and look at how the valuation bands are calculated, namely All home are given a council tax valuation band by the Valuation Office Agency (VOA). The band is based on the value of your home on 1 April 1991.
This 20year old date is interesting in several ways, particularly being when Council Tax replaced the Poll Tax/Community Charge.
Now I don't know about you, but most properties have significantly risen in value since the VOA calculated/announced them 20yrs ago, even after the 2008 'crash' and the current double dip recession.
However let us be the first to congratulate you for applying to the VOA to get them to 're-value' your property and therefore calculate your possibly 'new' Council Tax band/rate.
To be honest, given the property value changes it might be prudent to continue the principal Thatcher's colleagues (Major, Lamont, Heseltine, et al) brought in and for Cameron, Osborne, Pickles and Clegg to instruct the VOA to add new bands. Therefore
Band H to be over £320,000 and up to £420,000
new Band I to be over £420,000 and up to £520,000
new Band J to be over £520,000 and up to £750,000
new Band K to be over £750,000 and up to £1,000,000
new Band L to be over £1,000,000 and up to £1,500,000
new Band M to be over £1,500,000 and up to £2,250,000
new Band N to be over £2,250,000
One thing will be for sure in these times of central Government austerity towards Local Government, the ability for them all to better reflect their local property market, community, and income based on a more realistic council tax valuation band betterv reflecting the value of a home is one to be applauded and discussed.
However it'll probably never happen due to pure 'self interest'.

8 Aug 2011

thank you hns. very enlightening. :thumbup:

8 Aug 2011

Quote by Lizaleanrob
i also object to the fact they seem to have lost my last two foi requests
never mind i might get them now they have been hand delivered to the relevant departments by a solicitor

Why didn't you just contact the FOI Commisioner or their office?
Dave_Notts
because i want the information before they have time to corrupt it dave i don't want time lost in bureaucracy :twisted:
Do you really think that after two FOI requests they have not had time to corrupt it if that is what they want?
Dave_Notts

8 Aug 2011

the poll tax for me and my family was terrible, my then husband earned a very low wage and i was at home looking after our young children, we got no benefits and struggled to survive fincially anyway and that was just with a very basic standard of living and with help from my parents
when the poll tax came in we couldnt aford to pay the bills and feed the children let alone us unless my parents helped us more
what i didnt understand was why i had to pay it when i wasnt earning but someone i knew who was a mature student didnt pay it and she had a husband who earned at least 3 times as much as mine did plus they had a bigger family so therefore used more services and also got money to pay childcare
seemed unfair !

8 Aug 2011

Quote by Danne
the poll tax for me and my family was terrible, my then husband earned a very low wage and i was at home looking after our young children, we got no benefits and struggled to survive fincially anyway and that was just with a very basic standard of living and with help from my parents
when the poll tax came in we couldnt aford to pay the bills and feed the children let alone us unless my parents helped us more
what i didnt understand was why i had to pay it when i wasnt earning but someone i knew who was a mature student didnt pay it and she had a husband who earned at least 3 times as much as mine did plus they had a bigger family so therefore used more services and also got money to pay childcare
seemed unfair !

That would be because it was .... a perfect illustration of why taxes should be based on the abilty to pay