How do people feel about public sector pensions (final Salary)? and should the members be penalised for Government miss spending by increasing their contributions and decreasing the benefits at the end. More in and Less out. Especially when they were self financing until the Government spent the money pot.
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Public Sector pensions.
Is that Fire Service pension?
I've spent 12 years paying in to my Fire Service pension at a rate of 11% only to be told (a while ago) that the pot has been spent and now we have to pay for it. They want to up the contribution to 14%, pay out less when I retire and want me to work until 60. University's have done fitness studies and show that at 55 to 60 passing the fire service VO2 max test is virtually impossible and thus you get sacked for not being fit enough and that has an effect on a pension. Let alone the aging work force due to that. Who wants a Firefighter of that age turning up to rescue them, I know I don't want to be running around a fire ground at 60. And the MP's still get their final salary as their pensions (not 2/3) and it is non contributory, where's the fairness in that? Don't see them taking one for the team.
I pay for my pension and shouldn't have to pay for Government financial miss management. Sorry for the rant.
I've spent 12 years paying in to my Fire Service pension at a rate of 11% only to be told (a while ago) that the pot has been spent and now we have to pay for it. They want to up the contribution to 14%, pay out less when I retire and want me to work until 60. University's have done fitness studies and show that at 55 to 60 passing the fire service VO2 max test is virtually impossible and thus you get sacked for not being fit enough and that has an effect on a pension. Let alone the aging work force due to that. Who wants a Firefighter of that age turning up to rescue them, I know I don't want to be running around a fire ground at 60. And the MP's still get their final salary as their pensions (not 2/3) and it is non contributory, where's the fairness in that? Don't see them taking one for the team.
I pay for my pension and shouldn't have to pay for Government financial miss management. Sorry for the rant.
Quote by Cubes
I've spent 20 years in a FS pension scheme, only to have it pulled out from under me. The same thing happened to the wife. We're both in the private sector, but I don't see why public sector workers should be treated any differently.
Just my 2 penneth. ;-)
Sex God
This old thing again?
Lets face it 'final salary pensions for public sector workers' has a lot of scope. Are we talking about 18 year old privates earning 15k on the frontline or high level civil servants that earn over 150k a year, ten times the afore mentioned group.
It's too easy to bracket all public sector workers.
Lets face it 'final salary pensions for public sector workers' has a lot of scope. Are we talking about 18 year old privates earning 15k on the frontline or high level civil servants that earn over 150k a year, ten times the afore mentioned group.
It's too easy to bracket all public sector workers.
Quote by JohnDoeG
Is that Fire Service pension?
I've spent 12 years paying in to my Fire Service pension at a rate of 11% only to be told (a while ago) that the pot has been spent and now we have to pay for it. They want to up the contribution to 14%, pay out less when I retire and want me to work until 60. University's have done fitness studies and show that at 55 to 60 passing the fire service VO2 max test is virtually impossible and thus you get sacked for not being fit enough and that has an effect on a pension. Let alone the aging work force due to that. Who wants a Firefighter of that age turning up to rescue them, I know I don't want to be running around a fire ground at 60. And the MP's still get their final salary as their pensions (not 2/3) and it is non contributory, where's the fairness in that? Don't see them taking one for the team.
I pay for my pension and shouldn't have to pay for Government financial miss management. Sorry for the rant.
I've spent 20 years in a FS pension scheme, only to have it pulled out from under me. The same thing happened to the wife. We're both in the private sector, but I don't see why public sector workers should be treated any differently.
Just my 2 penneth. ;-)
Sorry - FS=Final Salary.
Talking about the lower earnings for front line employees. Not just Fire Service but Teachers, Nurses, Police, Paramedics etc as well.
Quote by Trevaunance
This old thing again?
Lets face it 'final salary pensions for public sector workers' has a lot of scope. Are we talking about 18 year old privates earning 15k on the frontline or high level civil servants that earn over 150k a year, ten times the afore mentioned group.
It's too easy to bracket all public sector workers.
all pensions, private, public and state pension funds have been stolen. by raising the retirement age till after your dead, which, incrementaly over the coming years they will do, will also ensure you will get fuck all and starve if you manage to live long enough and thats without taking account of inflation that will make anything you may recieve worthless.
Sex God
Quote by gulsonroad30664
all pensions, private, public and state pension funds have been stolen. by raising the retirement age till after your dead, which, incrementaly over the coming years they will do, will also ensure you will get fuck all and starve if you manage to live long enough and thats without taking account of inflation that will make anything you may recieve worthless.
mine hasn`t
:haha: A pension (whether personal, private or N.I. based for the State Pension) is a form of insurance. Simply that. In actuarial terms, it makes no sense whatsoever to have premiums which will not cover the anticipated draw down against the pot over time.
Car and house insurance goes up for the same reason.
It is absurd to say that your pension has been stolen because the actuarial rules have, of necessity, been changed.
Equally so, you cannot continue the argument sensibly into the realms of "well, I didn't have a claim against my car so why should I pay for all those that have?" Nor can you say that your premiums have been stolen!
When the actuarial rules were set, life expectancy was considerably less than it is now. Now life expectancy has increased (like the expectancy of your house being burgled or your car being damaged in an accident or stolen) the premiums have to be adjusted. If you live long, as indeed many of us wish to do with improved health care and information, your pension contributions will not likely match the payments during of your life in retirement but (like house and car insurance) will be supplemented by the premiums paid by people who have not drawn on the premiums they have paid. If you only pay one car insurance premium and your car is written off, the insurance will pay out £000's against a modest single premium. If you kill or seriously maime someone whilst driving your car, the insurance company could potentially be in for £0,000,000's; far in excess of what you have paid in premiums. That is what insurance is for.
It is NOT theft.
What was theft was the raid on pension funds by Gordon Brown when he took up residence in 11 Downing Street but that is a different issue (and thread) altogether!
Car and house insurance goes up for the same reason.
It is absurd to say that your pension has been stolen because the actuarial rules have, of necessity, been changed.
Equally so, you cannot continue the argument sensibly into the realms of "well, I didn't have a claim against my car so why should I pay for all those that have?" Nor can you say that your premiums have been stolen!
When the actuarial rules were set, life expectancy was considerably less than it is now. Now life expectancy has increased (like the expectancy of your house being burgled or your car being damaged in an accident or stolen) the premiums have to be adjusted. If you live long, as indeed many of us wish to do with improved health care and information, your pension contributions will not likely match the payments during of your life in retirement but (like house and car insurance) will be supplemented by the premiums paid by people who have not drawn on the premiums they have paid. If you only pay one car insurance premium and your car is written off, the insurance will pay out £000's against a modest single premium. If you kill or seriously maime someone whilst driving your car, the insurance company could potentially be in for £0,000,000's; far in excess of what you have paid in premiums. That is what insurance is for.
It is NOT theft.
What was theft was the raid on pension funds by Gordon Brown when he took up residence in 11 Downing Street but that is a different issue (and thread) altogether!
Each public servant gets paid for doing a job. When they retire, they aren't contributing to the country so why should their final salary have any bearing on their pension?
I think all public servants should get the same pension. The Prime Minister, a GP, an MP etc should receive exactly the same as a police officer, a social worker or a school dinner lady.
The pension would be non-contributory and only be paid when they reach retirement age. It would be subject to a minimum length of service (10 years) up to a maximum of 30 years. If you left the public sector after 20 years service you would only be entitled to two thirds of the pension.
If they want to top-up the pension they can do so by taking out a private pension scheme.
I think all public servants should get the same pension. The Prime Minister, a GP, an MP etc should receive exactly the same as a police officer, a social worker or a school dinner lady.
The pension would be non-contributory and only be paid when they reach retirement age. It would be subject to a minimum length of service (10 years) up to a maximum of 30 years. If you left the public sector after 20 years service you would only be entitled to two thirds of the pension.
If they want to top-up the pension they can do so by taking out a private pension scheme.
Certain public sector pension schemes are far too generous and unsustainable. A significant number of public sector workers enjoy a pension linked to their final salary, are able to draw this well ahead of State pension age and receive an income that rises in line with inflation in retirement.
To illustrate this here are some rough calculations based on the Fire Service (their salary & pension figures were the first I found)...
Firefighter
Annual Salary: £ 28,200
Annual Pension: £ 18,800 *
Fund Total: £ 421,105 **
Contributions: £ 84,600 (30 x £ 2,820) ***
Pension drawn: £ 470,000 (25 x £18,800)
Fire Service Area Manager
Annual Salary: £ 53,900
Annual Pension: £ 35,950 *
Fund Total: £ 805,414 **
Contributions: £ 169,800 (30 x £ 5,660) ***
Pension drawn: £ 898,750 (25 x £35,950)
* Two thirds of final salary
** Up to 25% of fund total can be commuted as a tax-free lump sum on retirement.
*** Based on 25 years @ 10% of final salary for ease of calculation & excludes tax relief on pension contributions - actual contribution would be much lower.
It is a rough calculation but highlights how generous some schemes are and that we the taxpayer cannot afford to continue to fund. Most private sector workers would love to look forward to a retirement like this!
To illustrate this here are some rough calculations based on the Fire Service (their salary & pension figures were the first I found)...
Firefighter
Annual Salary: £ 28,200
Annual Pension: £ 18,800 *
Fund Total: £ 421,105 **
Contributions: £ 84,600 (30 x £ 2,820) ***
Pension drawn: £ 470,000 (25 x £18,800)
Fire Service Area Manager
Annual Salary: £ 53,900
Annual Pension: £ 35,950 *
Fund Total: £ 805,414 **
Contributions: £ 169,800 (30 x £ 5,660) ***
Pension drawn: £ 898,750 (25 x £35,950)
* Two thirds of final salary
** Up to 25% of fund total can be commuted as a tax-free lump sum on retirement.
*** Based on 25 years @ 10% of final salary for ease of calculation & excludes tax relief on pension contributions - actual contribution would be much lower.
It is a rough calculation but highlights how generous some schemes are and that we the taxpayer cannot afford to continue to fund. Most private sector workers would love to look forward to a retirement like this!
Quote by JohnDoeG
Is that Fire Service pension?
I've spent 12 years paying in to my Fire Service pension at a rate of 11% only to be told (a while ago) that the pot has been spent and now we have to pay for it. They want to up the contribution to 14%, pay out less when I retire and want me to work until 60. University's have done fitness studies and show that at 55 to 60 passing the fire service VO2 max test is virtually impossible and thus you get sacked for not being fit enough and that has an effect on a pension. Let alone the aging work force due to that. Who wants a Firefighter of that age turning up to rescue them, I know I don't want to be running around a fire ground at 60. And the MP's still get their final salary as their pensions (not 2/3) and it is non contributory, where's the fairness in that? Don't see them taking one for the team.
I pay for my pension and shouldn't have to pay for Government financial miss management. Sorry for the rant.
I've spent 20 years in a FS pension scheme, only to have it pulled out from under me. The same thing happened to the wife. We're both in the private sector, but I don't see why public sector workers should be treated any differently.
Just my 2 penneth. ;-)
Quote by spideyuk
Certain public sector pension schemes are far too generous and unsustainable. A significant number of public sector workers enjoy a pension linked to their final salary, are able to draw this well ahead of State pension age and receive an income that rises in line with inflation in retirement.
To illustrate this here are some rough calculations based on the Fire Service (their salary & pension figures were the first I found)...
Firefighter
Annual Salary: £ 28,200
Annual Pension: £ 18,800 *
Fund Total: £ 421,105 **
Contributions: £ 84,600 (30 x £ 2,820) ***
Pension drawn: £ 470,000 (25 x £18,800)
Fire Service Area Manager
Annual Salary: £ 53,900
Annual Pension: £ 35,950 *
Fund Total: £ 805,414 **
Contributions: £ 169,800 (30 x £ 5,660) ***
Pension drawn: £ 898,750 (25 x £35,950)
* Two thirds of final salary
** Up to 25% of fund total can be commuted as a tax-free lump sum on retirement.
*** Based on 25 years @ 10% of final salary for ease of calculation & excludes tax relief on pension contributions - actual contribution would be much lower.
It is a rough calculation but highlights how generous some schemes are and that we the taxpayer cannot afford to continue to fund. Most private sector workers would love to look forward to a retirement like this!
A good example but would they like to put their lives in danger every day fighting fires, entering burning buildings to rescue people and heaving up the contents of their stomach when retrieving body parts off railway lines, car accidents or still smouldering bodies?
I somehow think not.
Some public sector workers are worth every penny :thumbup:
As from my last payslip I pay into my pension which is in a year unlike the £2820 quoted below. To get the maximum pension I have to work for 30 years not the 25 quoted below and if the government hadn't spent the pot of money that had been payed in for all those years at the start, when they weren't paying out, the scheme would be self financing and the tax payer wouldn't be lumbered with any bill. But as usual they don't look to the future and only as far as their term of office.
As with my previous post, the contributions are 11% nearly twice as much as other civil servant schemes how pay 6% or lower and salaries haven't changed since 2008 not even with inflation. MPs only work for 7 years before getting their salary as their pensions and they are non contributory, why don't they make changes to their pensions.
And as for claiming for 25 years, if they retire before 30 years they have to wait until normal retirement age of 65 before they can claim their pension. The average firefighter after doing 30 years service lives 15 to 20 years if they are lucky. Firefighters have shorter life expectancies than the average population and are three times more likely to die on the job, due to inherent risks, physical and mental stresses, and exposures to toxic and carcinogenic compounds released in smoke.
Let alone the effects of injuries sustained while working later in life and I have had my share of those, some quite serious.
So sorry spideyuk a little unfair to say that the tax payer funds the pensions. Oh and just to point out I pay my taxes as well.
As with my previous post, the contributions are 11% nearly twice as much as other civil servant schemes how pay 6% or lower and salaries haven't changed since 2008 not even with inflation. MPs only work for 7 years before getting their salary as their pensions and they are non contributory, why don't they make changes to their pensions.
And as for claiming for 25 years, if they retire before 30 years they have to wait until normal retirement age of 65 before they can claim their pension. The average firefighter after doing 30 years service lives 15 to 20 years if they are lucky. Firefighters have shorter life expectancies than the average population and are three times more likely to die on the job, due to inherent risks, physical and mental stresses, and exposures to toxic and carcinogenic compounds released in smoke.
Let alone the effects of injuries sustained while working later in life and I have had my share of those, some quite serious.
So sorry spideyuk a little unfair to say that the tax payer funds the pensions. Oh and just to point out I pay my taxes as well.
Quote by spideyuk
Certain public sector pension schemes are far too generous and unsustainable. A significant number of public sector workers enjoy a pension linked to their final salary, are able to draw this well ahead of State pension age and receive an income that rises in line with inflation in retirement.
To illustrate this here are some rough calculations based on the Fire Service (their salary & pension figures were the first I found)...
Firefighter
Annual Salary: £ 28,200
Annual Pension: £ 18,800 *
Fund Total: £ 421,105 **
Contributions: £ 84,600 (30 x £ 2,820) ***
Pension drawn: £ 470,000 (25 x £18,800)
Fire Service Area Manager
Annual Salary: £ 53,900
Annual Pension: £ 35,950 *
Fund Total: £ 805,414 **
Contributions: £ 169,800 (30 x £ 5,660) ***
Pension drawn: £ 898,750 (25 x £35,950)
* Two thirds of final salary
** Up to 25% of fund total can be commuted as a tax-free lump sum on retirement.
*** Based on 25 years @ 10% of final salary for ease of calculation & excludes tax relief on pension contributions - actual contribution would be much lower.
It is a rough calculation but highlights how generous some schemes are and that we the taxpayer cannot afford to continue to fund. Most private sector workers would love to look forward to a retirement like this!
Is that Fire Service pension?
I've spent 12 years paying in to my Fire Service pension at a rate of 11% only to be told (a while ago) that the pot has been spent and now we have to pay for it. They want to up the contribution to 14%, pay out less when I retire and want me to work until 60. University's have done fitness studies and show that at 55 to 60 passing the fire service VO2 max test is virtually impossible and thus you get sacked for not being fit enough and that has an effect on a pension. Let alone the aging work force due to that. Who wants a Firefighter of that age turning up to rescue them, I know I don't want to be running around a fire ground at 60. And the MP's still get their final salary as their pensions (not 2/3) and it is non contributory, where's the fairness in that? Don't see them taking one for the team.
I pay for my pension and shouldn't have to pay for Government financial miss management. Sorry for the rant.
I've spent 20 years in a FS pension scheme, only to have it pulled out from under me. The same thing happened to the wife. We're both in the private sector, but I don't see why public sector workers should be treated any differently.
Just my 2 penneth. ;-)
Thank you. I never not what to say to compliments, i get a little embarressed, but thank you.
A good example but would they like to put their lives in danger every day fighting fires, entering burning buildings to rescue people and heaving up the contents of their stomach when retrieving body parts off railway lines, car accidents or still smouldering bodies?
I somehow think not.
Some public sector workers are worth every penny :thumbup:
A good example but would they like to put their lives in danger every day fighting fires, entering burning buildings to rescue people and heaving up the contents of their stomach when retrieving body parts off railway lines, car accidents or still smouldering bodies?
I somehow think not.
Some public sector workers are worth every penny :thumbup:
Sex God
Personally I think that the modern day fad of criticising benefits that a certain section of the community get is quite pathetic and is all about envy.
As the previous poster said - we all pay taxes, we all choose the jobs we apply for and accept or decline subsequent job offers.
My view is:
You won the lottery - good for you
You have a final salary pension - good for you
Your business is going well - good for you
You have a good job and you are really happy - good for you
You are all bitter and twisted because someone has got something that you haven't - F**k off and sort your own life out. You reap what you sow so just get on doing what is right and good for you instead of worrying about other people.
As the previous poster said - we all pay taxes, we all choose the jobs we apply for and accept or decline subsequent job offers.
My view is:
You won the lottery - good for you
You have a final salary pension - good for you
Your business is going well - good for you
You have a good job and you are really happy - good for you
You are all bitter and twisted because someone has got something that you haven't - F**k off and sort your own life out. You reap what you sow so just get on doing what is right and good for you instead of worrying about other people.
Quote by GnV
Some public sector workers are worth every penny :thumbup:
Every public sector worker is a waste of money..............until you need them
Dave_Notts
but Dave, there are some like JohnDoeG you hope you never need...
There are lots I would hope I do not need G.
If you say to someone "Would you prefer to die by fire or drowning or crushed to death or poisoning, etc"
Then I expect the average person would say "None of them".
So it would depend on the situation one finds themselves in whether you would prefer John there or another Public Sector worker that could deal with the situation
Dave_Notts
Sex God
Quote by Lizaleanrob
all pensions, private, public and state pension funds have been stolen. by raising the retirement age till after your dead, which, incrementaly over the coming years they will do, will also ensure you will get fuck all and starve if you manage to live long enough and thats without taking account of inflation that will make anything you may recieve worthless.
mine hasn`t
:haha:Nor mine (private company pension) - someone is obviously in the wrong job.
Quote by Dave__Notts
Some public sector workers are worth every penny :thumbup:
Every public sector worker is a waste of money..............until you need them
Dave_Notts
but Dave, there are some like JohnDoeG you hope you never need...
There are lots I would hope I do not need G.
If you say to someone "Would you prefer to die by fire or drowning or crushed to death or poisoning, etc"
Then I expect the average person would say "None of them".
So it would depend on the situation one finds themselves in whether you would prefer John there or another Public Sector worker that could deal with the situation
Dave_Notts
Couldn't see the chair (nor the table) of Notts CC making much impact with his/her clipboard, yellow safety jacket, hard hat and sharpened pencil to be honest whilst Rome burns (despite what he/she might otherwise say to justify their miserable existence) but John's Fire Ground Commander is someone in whom you could place considerable trust.
