Pubs vs smoking?

12 Mar 2009

Quote by sexoholics
Not going to get into the smoking kills debate as everyone knows its not healthy, however what people fail to see is that 60 years ago 80% of adults smoked and they were not all dropping like flies, having said that, this was all before we got our pylons spread around the country, nuclear power, televisions in every home, now nearer 3 or 4 in every home, fridges in every home, microwaves, mobile phones, in fact the average home is full of gadgets pumping out radiation, we now have 2 cars to every home, when back then one in every street was scarce, thats not including fast food outlets popping up everywher, but everything healthwise seemed to be blamed on smoking, just wonder why that is, and how anyone can conduct any kind of factual evidence with everything else that's going on and changing at the same time.
Back on topic though, the smoking ban is a good thing, we live in a small town which only had one small pub, it closed 8 months after the smoking ban, and the landlord, who still lives in the town insisted then and still insists now it was due to the ban, however non smokers shouldnâ€™t have to breathe in someone elseâ€™s smoke, but the fact that you cannot have a smokers pub is wrong, surely it should work both ways, and the smoking in the workplace is a bit of a farce when MPâ€™s can do it at their place of work, and to add injury to insult, prisoners can even smoke, but the law abiding citizens cannotâ€¦
What is fact though and not botched up research, and funnily enough is seldom mentioned, is that most of the oldest living people in history were smokers.

Actually there are some very good points there.
The easy answer would have been to do what was mentioned at the start. That was to allow some pubs to remain smoking ones.
Knowing this Government and it's backtracking, I always thought the health police would go for an all out ban. The very people with hidden agendas, seeing as the very people who brought this law in, are all non smokers....no wonder they wanted a complete ban.
I really do understand someone who does not smoke and their attitudes, I would no doubt be the same but.....I do not think it is right or fair to ban it completly. That is wrong in my opinion, and where are the smokers rights?
Yes I smoke so obviously will have a different take on it, but I think I can hoestly say, that if I was a non smoker, I would also think a blanket ban would be wrong.
As you have stated, the MP'S can smoke in their place of work, and it being a public building too. Talk about double standards, which led me to another thread I did.
Practise what you preach, should be a good motto for this Government.

12 Mar 2009

Quote by kentswingers777
I have to disagree that alcohol only causes problems for the user.
We must remember the drunken driving and the violence against family and strangers perpetrated by alcohol users.

A very valid point.

uhm..not so...drunken driving is not something you should do, because it's potentially harmful to others and yourself.. along the same principle, giving anybody the right to smoke in my face equals allowing him to bring me harm..
so..why should there be a law that punishes who drives under the influence and might cause me harm, and not one against smoking in my face, which is also likely to cause me harm?
the argument doesn't hold water..in fact, if anything it gives the non smokers side more ammo.

12 Mar 2009

Quote by Melting_pot
uhm..not so...drunken driving is not something you should do, because it's potentially harmful to others and yourself.. along the same principle, giving anybody the right to smoke in my face equals allowing him to bring me harm..
so..why should there be a law that punishes who drives under the influence and might cause me harm, and not one against smoking in my face, which is also likely to cause me harm?
the argument doesn't hold water..in fact, if anything it gives the non smokers side more ammo.

No one is saying that non smokers should not have the legally protected right to clean air, that I completely and totally agree with. I'm not even saying that smokers should be afforded an equal share of establishments that allow smoking, merely a percentage that reflects the amount of smokers in society (about 25% of adults I believe?)
So 1 in every 4 pubs is a smoking pub, staffed by smokers who agree to work there, run by smokers and frequented by smokers and any non smoker who wishes too, the other 3 are strictly non smoking establishments with stiff penalties for those flouting the rule.
So there's your law which protects your health, but wonder of wonder, everyones choice is respected.
Not so hard is it?

12 Mar 2009

No one is saying that non smokers should not have the legally protected right to clean air, that I completely and totally agree with. I'm not even saying that smokers should be afforded an equal share of establishments that allow smoking, merely a percentage that reflects the amount of smokers in society (about 25% of adults I believe?)
So 1 in every 4 pubs is a smoking pub, staffed by smokers who agree to work there, run by smokers and frequented by smokers and any non smoker who wishes too, the other 3 are strictly non smoking establishments with stiff penalties for those flouting the rule.
So there's your law which protects your health, but wonder of wonder, everyones choice is respected.
Not so hard is it?

true, and I agree broadly with what you're saying..I was just nitpicking on that very argument, which I found illogical
I don't think however your solution would be applicable on a practical level..who is going to control that people actually are aware of the "smoking situation" in said pubs?
but more importantly, what if the village is small and there is only one pub? I'd rather have a smoking room in restaurants and pubs..adequately equipped with air filters and such.
I think however that blaming the smoking ban for causing the closing down of pubs is a bit like blaming the government for causing the bankrupcy of asbestos related industry.
I believe is that the fleeting benefit of the "nice first puff of the day", as much as one might like smoking, simply is outweighted by the benefits not smoking gives, to personal health, the health of those who surrounds us and our pockets..(my aunt is a heavy smoker..she worked out that every two years she could go on holiday to the bahamas, if she quit and put the money towards that instead)
this alone should be enough to any person of common sense, to choose not to smoke..but the simple truth is that the "pleasure smoking gives" is hiding a more disturbing fact..nicotine is addictive, and that's the main reason why otherwise strongminded people choose to damage themselves.
"I like smoking", some will say...well..why not find something else that you might like or enjoy more, but which is not detrimental to your health and more importantly to that of those you care about?
how many mothers have quit smoking during pregnancy "because it's bad for the baby" only to start smoking around their newborns as soon as they could? does that not strike as a waste of effort?
I've smoked myself for one full year, started for the wrong reasons, and quit when those reasons faded away..wrong all the way through, but I'm not a hardcore "smokefighter"..in fact most of my friends are smokers and I will tag along when they go out of the pub for a smoke. but I appreciate the fact that I'm not forced anymore, that I can decide to stay in the pub and not have to breathe their fags if I so choose to do..after all, they/you're doing their bit regardless of the fact it might cause me harm..then the least I feel to have the right to ask of them is that they do so outside, without blowing the smoke in my pint/dish/face.
after all, we all know that the government witholding the total ban on tobacco, for only one reason:
as of today they're still making more money from taxes in the tobacco industry than they loose from research on smoking related diseases, cancer, nhs funding for people admitted with said diseases..
the moment that scale tips over the other way, smoking is going to become a memory...and for any politician it's better to take the moral highground and say "I'm tipping the scale a little" than do it all in one go and being responsable for people going out of work or broke AND loosing the government a steady flow of cash..hence the slow pace at which they're doing it, but they WILL do it nevertheless...and no matter how much smokers might gripe and murmur in the process, in the end, it WILL be better for their health and pockets too.
(come to think of it, that's the beauty of the process..because no matter how strong the opposition of the smokers, whoever puts these bans into effect, can always say "I'm doing it for their own good" and he'd be right all the way through lol

)
then again..there is another IMPORTANT reason wherefore it's better not to smoke
most people today are non smokers...and most of the non smokers, if asked, will tell you that kissing a non smoker is better than snogging somebody who's just had a fag :evil2:

12 Mar 2009

shit...I did it again sad

12 Mar 2009

Well I'm sure it would be pretty easy, I believe the number of incandescant and apopletic non smokers bursting out of the door would identify the smoking pub, the non smoking pubs would be empty and possibly derelict.
Not a problem is it? lol

Seriously, for small villages with one pub, that pub obviously should suit the majority of it's patrons. So if a majority of non smokers use it, its a non smoking pub.
With respect, it doesn't matter a damn what you think about smoking, the fact remains it's a perfectly legal choice for an adult to make, it is a smokers choice to smoke as much as it is a non smokers choice to not.
I'm surprised at the arrogance I read into the last statement you make, that of 'we're doing it for your own good' That is the single thing that most sticks in my craw over the whole smoking argument. It is my choice to smoke, it is a legal choice, if i abide by the terms of the smoking ban I harm no one except myself, I do not need anyone to think for me, to protect me from my legal choices, now for that I may pay the concequences, then again I may not, I'm not going to get into the whole smoking vs non smoking = longevity debate, because to be fair whether I smoke or not, I'm still going to die some day as is every single human being on the planet, it's a pointless argument.

12 Mar 2009

you're right..it is arrogant..but politicians are arrogant...that wasn't me speaking as I wouldn't be so smug about it..I was merely relaying what they would probably say in the face of who told them "we have a right to smoke"..
from a purely factual point of view, they are, when banning smoking, acting for the greater good...even though this will come at the cost for those who would like to smoke
and they'll rub your face in it all the way through..
arrogant? yep..it is.

12 Mar 2009

Quote by Melting_pot
you're right..it is arrogant..but politicians are arrogant...that wasn't me speaking as I wouldn't be so smug about it..I was merely relaying what they would probably say in the face of who told them "we have a right to smoke"..
from a purely factual point of view, they are, when banning smoking, acting for the greater good...even though this will come at the cost for those who would like to smoke
and they'll rub your face in it all the way through..
arrogant? yep..it is.

:shock: :shock:

12 Mar 2009

I know..a bit of an assumption there..lol
truth is, I've seen them talk like that on this very subject in 3 different countries now...I guess I'm getting a bit sarky

12 Mar 2009

Quote by Melting_pot
then again..there is another IMPORTANT reason wherefore it's better not to smoke
most people today are non smokers...and most of the non smokers, if asked, will tell you that kissing a non smoker is better than snogging somebody who's just had a fag :evil2:

:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
That's so much rubbish it made me laugh out loud!! What a ridiculous thing to say! :giggle:
But while we're on assumptions, most people would agree that it's ridiculous!! :mrgreen:

12 Mar 2009

I will accept it in the case of Marmite DG. I simply refuse to snog Silky after a marmite sarny

12 Mar 2009

Quote by Silk and Big G
I will accept it in the case of Marmite DG. I simply refuse to snog Silky after a marmite sarny

Agreed! :thumbup:

13 Mar 2009

I hate snogging someone who has smoked - you can taste it even after a few hours without a fag. The old ashtray smell is deep in the lungs, no amount of teeth brushing will shift it. The only solution is time.

13 Mar 2009

duh!...that was meant as a joke...lol lol

I'm surprised people took it seriously :giggle:

13 Mar 2009

Quote by Melting_pot
duh!...that was meant as a joke...lol
I'm surprised people took it seriously :giggle:

:giggle:
It's really, really hard to tell sometimes! wink

13 Mar 2009

well..it started out as a serious remark, but merely about myself (I do prefer to kiss a girl that hasn't just had a fag, but that's just me)
...then I changed my mind and turned it into a general statement/assumption... basically taking the piss(hence the smiley)..but yeah..I do understand in hindsight, how you could take it for a serious remark.

25 Apr 2009

as a smoker i can understand non smokers annoyance at some peoples attitude to smoking in enclosed areas but surely common sense should prevail where legislation conflicts with the rights of individuals. my belief is that there should be separate areas with adequate clean air ventilation systems so that smokers and non smokers alike can socialise in the same places without having to break the law (and freeze when they have to go out for a fag). I also strongly believe that if there is food being served in the pubs or clubs that smoking should not be allowed at any time. redface

sorry if i ramble but first post

26 Apr 2009

maybe people have just realised how bad for you drinking and smoking are.......

26 Apr 2009

Quote by foxylady2209
I hate snogging someone who has smoked - you can taste it even after a few hours without a fag. The old ashtray smell is deep in the lungs, no amount of teeth brushing will shift it. The only solution is time.

How big is your tongue to get to the lungs :shock:
Dave_Notts

26 Apr 2009

Quote by DeeCee
maybe people have just realised how bad for you drinking and smoking are.......

Yep............ban them both
Dave_Notts

26 Apr 2009

When I was in the US last year I went in quite a lot of, mainly Irish, pubs. One thing that I noticed straight away was that unless food was being consumed on the premises, smoking was permitted in nearly all of them. So many people only smoke when they are drinking alcohol, they might not mind stepping outside for a smoke durring the summer months, but if it is cold and wet outside?
I read recently that four pubs were shutting in the UK EVERY DAY! The government have handled this, like so many other things, ham-fistedly and totally wrong.

26 Apr 2009

Quote by BrightonGeezer
When I was in the US last year I went in quite a lot of, mainly Irish, pubs. One thing that I noticed straight away was that unless food was being consumed on the premises, smoking was permitted in nearly all of them. So many people only smoke when they are drinking alcohol, they might not mind stepping outside for a smoke durring the summer months, but if it is cold and wet outside?
I read recently that four pubs were shutting in the UK EVERY DAY! The government have handled this, like so many other things, ham-fistedly and totally wrong.

The smoking ban is a factor for them closing but most of the pubs closing, I believe, is that the habits of the public has changed. The pub was the central place to go in the 40/50/60/70's. Since that time there has been an introduction of fast food, dvd's/videos, cinemas, clubs, restaurants and a hundred and one things that people would rather do than sit in a pub.
The number of people wanting to go into them has declined and the remainder of the pubs have to fight for the custom of those left. The successful ones stay open and the unsuccessful ones close. That is business for you.
Put on top of this the other factors of rent increases and tax on beer/spirits then you can see why they are in trouble.
I know that the breweries have departments that specifically target middle age couples with disposable money to put into a pub. They only expect them to stay in for 3 years, lose their saved money, and then get evicted. The breweries don't give a hoot about the smoking ban as long as their rents come in.
Dave_Notts

26 Apr 2009

Quote by Dave__Notts
maybe people have just realised how bad for you drinking and smoking are.......

Yep............ban them both
Dave_Notts
let me explain in a little more detail...
There have been "bans" of sorts imposed in relation to both...... advertising , sponsorship, smoking in pubs...etc etc
said bans have been led by the argument that both carry health risks, addiction problems etc etc
maybe people have begun to realise that what was a money earner for the privilleged few, was infact a system to get us hooked and generate revenue without regard to the health and safety of those who were drawn in.
just a thought wink

27 Apr 2009

Quote by kentswingers777
As for what Res asked about smoking in my van. It is ILLEGAL to smoke in a company van, whether you own it or not. But I will take my chances with the state police.

Quote by Dave__Notts
A company vehicle only driven by one person can be allowed to be used and smoke in it. If anybody else is carried a s a passenger or somebody else drives the van then it is covered by the legislation.

You're both sort-of there....we had a big investigation at work about this to establish what the law is in relation to company vehicles and smoking. The law states you can smoke whilst on company business (and in personal time) if the vehicle is designated primarily for sole use and you are on your own. If not, you should not smoke at all. This lead to a number of challenges at work about whether company vehicles are primarily for sole use or not. FYI I have a company vehicle and in the 10 or so years since having one I've carried passengers 4-5 times. However, mine is still designated as being for shared use so I shouldn't be smoking in it. If you have a privately owned vehicle and you are using it on company business, the same rules apply when carrying passengers.

Quote by Dirtygirly
The tax bothers me... my best mate lives in Gibraltar and you can buy 20 fags there for just over a quid. That gets my goat but to be fair I do smuggle a whole heap more than I should out of there when I go to visit as she does when she comes home.

The law on importing from EU countries (with a few small exceptions) is that you can bring any quantity home providing it is for personal use. Customs officials tend to go by the rule of thumb of 3200 cigarettes being the threshold for when to start questioning people. Of course Gibraltar isn't a member state....
innocent

And for the record, I smoke (and I like marmite!).

27 Apr 2009

Gibraltar isn't included sadly... but we do only take 200 at a time, just because we stash them in Spain and wander back over the border to get another 200 is by the by! lol

EDIT: And while we're on the subject, my friend was on about this the other night and one of his mates had a surprise health and safety visit and got done for having an ashtray in the office with cigarette butts in it.

27 Apr 2009

Quote by Dirtygirly
Gibraltar isn't included sadly... but we do only take 200 at a time, just because we stash them in Spain and wander back over the border to get another 200 is by the by!

Yup "Of course Gibraltar isn't a member state.... "

Quote by Dirtygirly
EDIT: And while we're on the subject, my friend was on about this the other night and one of his mates had a surprise health and safety visit and got done for having an ashtray in the office with cigarette butts in it.

I'm surprised by this - I thought they had to prove that you've been smoking in a non-smoking area, not just that you have the remains (i.e. it could be an ashtray that's been brought in from outside)....bloody hell!
The other thing that annoyed me when working on a customer site in Wales was the council attitude. They had spent a considerable amount of time and effort installing what they thought was a conformant smoking shelter (i.e. no more than 50% was covered, sufficiently away from public entrances to the building etc).
The woman from the council measured the shelter and said that as she made it 56% coverage it would have to be rebuilt - result? Apart from the extra cost involved, it meant all the smokers were banned from using the shelter for 3 weeks whilst it was sorted and the whole place looked a right mess. Now there's progress for you!

27 Apr 2009

Quote by Varken
As for what Res asked about smoking in my van. It is ILLEGAL to smoke in a company van, whether you own it or not. But I will take my chances with the state police.

Quote by Dave__Notts
A company vehicle only driven by one person can be allowed to be used and smoke in it. If anybody else is carried a s a passenger or somebody else drives the van then it is covered by the legislation.

You're both sort-of there....we had a big investigation at work about this to establish what the law is in relation to company vehicles and smoking. The law states you can smoke whilst on company business (and in personal time) if the vehicle is designated primarily for sole use and you are on your own. If not, you should not smoke at all. This lead to a number of challenges at work about whether company vehicles are primarily for sole use or not. FYI I have a company vehicle and in the 10 or so years since having one I've carried passengers 4-5 times. However, mine is still designated as being for shared use so I shouldn't be smoking in it. If you have a privately owned vehicle and you are using it on company business, the same rules apply when carrying passengers.

If it is your own vehicle but used for business i.e. business use class 1 on your insurance then it is not covered by the legislation.
It is primarily a private vehicle and not a company vehicle. The legislation only covers company vehicles.
If a vehicle is designated as sole use then you can smoke in it if it is a company vehicle. That mostly includes trampers of HGVs. Where people fall down on this is when an inspector asks "OK, Bill who is the designated driver goes on holiday.........who drives while he is away" If they answer "Well Jim does until he gets back", then this makes the vehicle used by more than 1 driver so smoking is banned inside the vehicle.
Dave_Notts

27 Apr 2009

Quote by Varken
]EDIT: And while we're on the subject, my friend was on about this the other night and one of his mates had a surprise health and safety visit and got done for having an ashtray in the office with cigarette butts in it.

I'm surprised by this - I thought they had to prove that you've been smoking in a non-smoking area, not just that you have the remains (i.e. it could be an ashtray that's been brought in from outside)....bloody hell!
You are absolutely right. It is an observational piece of legislation. If an inspector sees someone smoking in a banned area then they can issue a fixed penalty notice.
Your friend could not be issued with a FPN unless they admit the offence i.e. they tell the inspector they have been smoking in there. Looks like your mate opened their mouths and admitted the offence. If they didn't then the onus would be on the inspector to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that smoking had occured in your friends work. As Varken says......they could have just brought the ashtray in to wash and left it on the side. They have a choice to appeal this. They can just not pay and go before a beak and explain that they were not smoking but cleaning the ashtray. If the inspector can not offer any other evidence then the case will have to be dropped..........but what did your mate say to the inspector? This may be his downfall
Dave_Notts

27 Apr 2009

I have no idea what was said but I'll pass all that on! Thanks Dave! kiss

28 Apr 2009

I am sure the smoking ban has had an impact on pub sales. In my village there are several pubs. 2 have closed since the ban. Both used to be busy - one especially so. Before they shut they were practically giving beer away. People simply say that they will stay in if they can't smoke. The only pubs still keeping a float round here are the ones who offer either food or bingo. LOL.