I just read this article and wondered whether anyone else reading it would feel their conscience being pricked.
I admit, we, as a couple, rarely go to the pub anymore. Money is tight and it is much cheaper to drink at home and not worry about driving back (we only have one pub within walking distance). However, the issue I had not considered to be accelerating the demise of pubs in this country, is the smoking ban that came into force 18 months ago.
I am ambivalent about the benefits of the ban in pubs etc. I don't smoke but my hubby does. Whilst I like being able to go to the pub and come home not smelling like a chain smoker, I do feel that it has been a final nail in the coffin of many small, particularly rural, pubs. I'd prefer to go to the pub and have a conversation that isn't suspended every time one of the party fancies a cigarette and we either all troop outside or wait patiently for their return, examining the decor and discussing the rain/sleet/snow. Obviously this is less of an issue when the weather is clement and we can all sit together outside and partake of the fresh <koff koff> air.
It is all well and good saying that the public need to be protected from cigarette smoke, but I find that it just pushes smokers out onto the pavements. When I walk through Canterbury, I frequently have to step onto the road to pass the smokers (and still have to inhale their smoke). Is the Government going to decree that due to the risk of personal injury to pedestrians, smokers may not use the pavements outside pubs either? No I didn't think so.
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Pubs vs smoking?
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While some people keep on saying the closures of
all these pubs every week is due to the cheap booze
in supermarkets,I tend to agree to some extent,but
whichever way you look at it the bulk of these closures have come since the smoking ban was enforced.
Supermarkets have had cheap booze for YEARS
I can understand that people who don't smoke
like to be in a smoke free atmosphere.
In Spain they cater for both Smokers and none smokers,
if the bar is less than 100 sq mts they can choose but
have to put a sign up outside to that my way
of thinking this should satisfy both customers and
staff as everyone has the choice !
L.B
all these pubs every week is due to the cheap booze
in supermarkets,I tend to agree to some extent,but
whichever way you look at it the bulk of these closures have come since the smoking ban was enforced.
Supermarkets have had cheap booze for YEARS
I can understand that people who don't smoke
like to be in a smoke free atmosphere.
In Spain they cater for both Smokers and none smokers,
if the bar is less than 100 sq mts they can choose but
have to put a sign up outside to that my way
of thinking this should satisfy both customers and
staff as everyone has the choice !
L.B
I think the smoking ban has led to an awful lot of pub closures.
I don't know whether that is a good or a bad thing. I don't subscribe to the romantic vision of pubs as the centre of communities. I'm sure some are but I've lived in a lot of villages towns and cities over the years and have never found one. Surely the ones that are the community hub would survive anything.
The smoking ban in pubs does amuse me as I remain convinced that alcohol does far more harm than smoking.
I don't know whether that is a good or a bad thing. I don't subscribe to the romantic vision of pubs as the centre of communities. I'm sure some are but I've lived in a lot of villages towns and cities over the years and have never found one. Surely the ones that are the community hub would survive anything.
The smoking ban in pubs does amuse me as I remain convinced that alcohol does far more harm than smoking.
I personally don't understand the smoking ban at all. if the goverment are that worried about our health why dont they just ban fags? stop the sale of them full stop? why because they don't give a shit about us really they just have to be seen to care, they know damn well if they stopped the sale of fags this country would be on its knees in a matter of months, and where would they regain the money from they have lost? your taxes, your petrol, your beer your shopping, you everything so maybe none smokers should think about that too be they moan about smoking, as for the pubs, if they can have a smoke room in the house of commens, yes the very building that banned smoking, why can't pubs opt for a smoking room too?
I dont smoke, hubby does and so our nights out "together " now consist of me sitting alone for half the night while he is smoking outside, or else i have to go with him and freeze as well as inhale smoke ! So now we rarely go to pubs , why pay inflated prices to sit outside in the cold when you can stay at home and drink for less than half the price?
I firmly believe that pubs should have smoking rooms and if people such as myself choose to go in that is our democratic right. Also the staff should be allowed to refuse to work in the smoking room if it is their choice .
I firmly believe that pubs should have smoking rooms and if people such as myself choose to go in that is our democratic right. Also the staff should be allowed to refuse to work in the smoking room if it is their choice .
Sex God
Some "clubs" have smoking rooms......I have heard.
And some pubs have been known to let people smoke in some parts of the pub.......I have also heard.
None smoker myself and used to hate the smell of smoke on my clothes in the morning, but do think its killing some pubs off.
On the other hand as Shel is a smoker she finds it easy to chat to the fellow addicts either at pubs or clubs.
John
And some pubs have been known to let people smoke in some parts of the pub.......I have also heard.
None smoker myself and used to hate the smell of smoke on my clothes in the morning, but do think its killing some pubs off.
On the other hand as Shel is a smoker she finds it easy to chat to the fellow addicts either at pubs or clubs.
John
I remember very clearly when the smoking ban was first talked about.
The Government or the Health Department, clearly stated it would NOT be a blanket ban. I always thought it would be, that was just a smoke screen to gauge peoples reactions.
Whatever happened in this country about choice? Where is the smokers choice? Other than to be herded into a corner like lepers, or out into the cold.
I always thought there would be a few pubs that allowed smoking, until the Government did exactly what it said it would not do, and impose a blanket ban.
Pubs are no longer the places they were. We both smoke and apart from two swinging socials, we have not been into a pub. I would rather sit at home, watching my LARGE telly, and being able to smoke, rather than have to go outside every whatever minutes to have a smoke.
The smoking ban has without doubt contributed to a lot of pubs downfalls. This Government will not be happy it seems, until all the pubs have vanished. They put obstacles in the way of running a pub, and this ban has only made a lot of landlords realise, they have no future.
The rights and choices of smokers has been taken away, which whilst I agree that smoking should not be allowed in eateries, a blanket ban was uncalled for, and the demise of the British pub is fast leaving our shores. Only a few will remain in a few years.
IF there were a few pubs that gave the customer the choice to either smoke or not, that would give people the choice to enter those pubs or not. As it stands they are quick to take my 85% tax on my fags but.....will not give me anything in return.
As somebody said earlier about banning them. They preach morals, they preach about peoples health but....quick to take our money. A massive ammount of tax per year. I wonder how many billions they take each year in tax, yet on the other hand preach about the dangers. Hypocrits.
The Government or the Health Department, clearly stated it would NOT be a blanket ban. I always thought it would be, that was just a smoke screen to gauge peoples reactions.
Whatever happened in this country about choice? Where is the smokers choice? Other than to be herded into a corner like lepers, or out into the cold.
I always thought there would be a few pubs that allowed smoking, until the Government did exactly what it said it would not do, and impose a blanket ban.
Pubs are no longer the places they were. We both smoke and apart from two swinging socials, we have not been into a pub. I would rather sit at home, watching my LARGE telly, and being able to smoke, rather than have to go outside every whatever minutes to have a smoke.
The smoking ban has without doubt contributed to a lot of pubs downfalls. This Government will not be happy it seems, until all the pubs have vanished. They put obstacles in the way of running a pub, and this ban has only made a lot of landlords realise, they have no future.
The rights and choices of smokers has been taken away, which whilst I agree that smoking should not be allowed in eateries, a blanket ban was uncalled for, and the demise of the British pub is fast leaving our shores. Only a few will remain in a few years.
IF there were a few pubs that gave the customer the choice to either smoke or not, that would give people the choice to enter those pubs or not. As it stands they are quick to take my 85% tax on my fags but.....will not give me anything in return.
As somebody said earlier about banning them. They preach morals, they preach about peoples health but....quick to take our money. A massive ammount of tax per year. I wonder how many billions they take each year in tax, yet on the other hand preach about the dangers. Hypocrits.
Quote by kentswingers777
I remember very clearly when the smoking ban was first talked about.
The Government or the Health Department, clearly stated it would NOT be a blanket ban. I always thought it would be, that was just a smoke screen to gauge peoples reactions.
Whatever happened in this country about choice? Where is the smokers choice? Other than to be herded into a corner like lepers, or out into the cold.
I always thought there would be a few pubs that allowed smoking, until the Government did exactly what it said it would not do, and impose a blanket ban.
Pubs are no longer the places they were. We both smoke and apart from two swinging socials, we have not been into a pub. I would rather sit at home, watching my LARGE telly, and being able to smoke, rather than have to go outside every whatever minutes to have a smoke.
The smoking ban has without doubt contributed to a lot of pubs downfalls. This Government will not be happy it seems, until all the pubs have vanished. They put obstacles in the way of running a pub, and this ban has only made a lot of landlords realise, they have no future.
The rights and choices of smokers has been taken away, which whilst I agree that smoking should not be allowed in eateries, a blanket ban was uncalled for, and the demise of the British pub is fast leaving our shores. Only a few will remain in a few years.
IF there were a few pubs that gave the customer the choice to either smoke or not, that would give people the choice to enter those pubs or not. As it stands they are quick to take my 85% tax on my fags but.....will not give me anything in return.
As somebody said earlier about banning them. They preach morals, they preach about peoples health but....quick to take our money. A massive ammount of tax per year. I wonder how many billions they take each year in tax, yet on the other hand preach about the dangers. Hypocrits.
Totally agree Kent
But got to admit,not bought fags in this country for 20 years,as with fuel this government are too greedy
with the tax they impose on to think of it
they are just a greedy,incompetent shower of wankers
FULL STOP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
L.B
Quote by little bighorn
I remember very clearly when the smoking ban was first talked about.
The Government or the Health Department, clearly stated it would NOT be a blanket ban. I always thought it would be, that was just a smoke screen to gauge peoples reactions.
Whatever happened in this country about choice? Where is the smokers choice? Other than to be herded into a corner like lepers, or out into the cold.
I always thought there would be a few pubs that allowed smoking, until the Government did exactly what it said it would not do, and impose a blanket ban.
Pubs are no longer the places they were. We both smoke and apart from two swinging socials, we have not been into a pub. I would rather sit at home, watching my LARGE telly, and being able to smoke, rather than have to go outside every whatever minutes to have a smoke.
The smoking ban has without doubt contributed to a lot of pubs downfalls. This Government will not be happy it seems, until all the pubs have vanished. They put obstacles in the way of running a pub, and this ban has only made a lot of landlords realise, they have no future.
The rights and choices of smokers has been taken away, which whilst I agree that smoking should not be allowed in eateries, a blanket ban was uncalled for, and the demise of the British pub is fast leaving our shores. Only a few will remain in a few years.
IF there were a few pubs that gave the customer the choice to either smoke or not, that would give people the choice to enter those pubs or not. As it stands they are quick to take my 85% tax on my fags but.....will not give me anything in return.
As somebody said earlier about banning them. They preach morals, they preach about peoples health but....quick to take our money. A massive ammount of tax per year. I wonder how many billions they take each year in tax, yet on the other hand preach about the dangers. Hypocrits.
Totally agree Kent
But got to admit,not bought fags in this country for 20 years,as with fuel this government are too greedy
with the tax they impose on to think of it
they are just a greedy,incompetent shower of wankersFULL STOP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
L.B
I would never say such a thing.
best thing that ever happened in my opinion. And well overdue.
Now just to clarify a few points. It is nothing to do with pubs or clubs....its the workplace directive. This is European wide. An employer can not allow a worker to be knowingly subjected to dangerous materials. Breathing in secondry cigerette is clearly proven ( mounds and mounds of information of this if you care to read) to lead to many problems, the worst of all being lung cancer. Working behind a bar in the old style smokey pubs, was it said like smoking 20 fags a day !! This is clearly unaccpetable. Pubs are a far more pleasant place to be now, both for workers and customers.
The demise of the old style pub as we know it, has been coming along for a long time now. the pubs now thriving are ones that offer food, and a more continential cafe style atmosphere.
We don't always like change in all walks.....but in the end we all have to adapt. the one thing that the latest evidence is showing, is less younger people are now smokeing, as it becomes less socially acceptable. Again surely in the long run, this has to be good, for the long term health of the nation.
Now just to clarify a few points. It is nothing to do with pubs or clubs....its the workplace directive. This is European wide. An employer can not allow a worker to be knowingly subjected to dangerous materials. Breathing in secondry cigerette is clearly proven ( mounds and mounds of information of this if you care to read) to lead to many problems, the worst of all being lung cancer. Working behind a bar in the old style smokey pubs, was it said like smoking 20 fags a day !! This is clearly unaccpetable. Pubs are a far more pleasant place to be now, both for workers and customers.
The demise of the old style pub as we know it, has been coming along for a long time now. the pubs now thriving are ones that offer food, and a more continential cafe style atmosphere.
We don't always like change in all walks.....but in the end we all have to adapt. the one thing that the latest evidence is showing, is less younger people are now smokeing, as it becomes less socially acceptable. Again surely in the long run, this has to be good, for the long term health of the nation.
Sex God
For me its not the not being able to smoke why I don't frequent the pubs, Its the fact that they all stink now there is no cigarette smoke. Now most smell damp, you can smell the toilets and stale drink all over the pubs 
Quote by Tan--Kinky
For me its not the not being able to smoke why I don't frequent the pubs, Its the fact that they all stink now there is no cigarette smoke. Now most smell damp, you can smell the toilets and stale drink all over the pubs
Which is not a reason to allow smoking inside, but IS a reason to improve hygiene inside !
The price of beer is more to do with the death of the village pub (the gov again).
Anyway, since the pub ban one of my sons has stopped smoking (and his wife) and the other is fast getting fed-up with standing outside smoking, so he may stop soon as well.
Win-win.
I do not smoke anyway.
If you do, I suggest you stop.
The number one killer of smokers is COPD.
The smoking ban has nothing to do with the closure of so many pubs its the breweries.
It stands to reason if you have 5 pubs and so 5 managers to pay and not enough customers to fill them then you close the least profitable one.
ok you may loose say half the drinkers from that pub but the other half will go to the remaining pubs and so its a win all hands down for the brewers cos he has reduced his costs by a fifth and whilst he is at it he can shove the price up and claim lack of profit.
Just a thought but if supermarkets can buy cheap booze who are they buying it off ermmmmm the breweries so however you care to take your drink the goverment and the brewers make a whole heap of money off you.
It stands to reason if you have 5 pubs and so 5 managers to pay and not enough customers to fill them then you close the least profitable one.
ok you may loose say half the drinkers from that pub but the other half will go to the remaining pubs and so its a win all hands down for the brewers cos he has reduced his costs by a fifth and whilst he is at it he can shove the price up and claim lack of profit.
Just a thought but if supermarkets can buy cheap booze who are they buying it off ermmmmm the breweries so however you care to take your drink the goverment and the brewers make a whole heap of money off you.
I know of three people that either ran a pub or owned them so....I would believe what people say who actually do the job.
They say without doubt that the smoking ban HAS affected their business, and to such a degree it was the final nail in the coffin for one of those pubs.
They say without doubt that the smoking ban HAS affected their business, and to such a degree it was the final nail in the coffin for one of those pubs.
The smoking ban has affected the pubs, but they were going downhill anyway. The peoples leisure time has changed dramatically over the last 30 years. Instead of going to the pub we go to cinemas, restaurants, ice-skating, lots of other pursuits, we stay indoors with a video or dvd and a take away, etc. The people have changed but the businesses haven't. There are just too many pubs for the numbers who want to use them. Simple economics really.
Dave_Notts
Dave_Notts
Sex God
the smell is true.....
some pubs have install fresh-air things to take the smell away.....
we miss lots of clubs out as they don t cater for smokers ,,, but thats us,,,,
some pubs have install fresh-air things to take the smell away.....
we miss lots of clubs out as they don t cater for smokers ,,, but thats us,,,,
have the managers run a survey to know the smoking ban is why they are not so busy?
maybe they are to kean to lay blame and not look at a new way forward ?
weatherspoons is typically packed, maybe because they sell cheeper drinks and food? the pubs charge a fortune for a pint(even of coke)then wonder why people rather spend their money on something else.
xx fem xx
maybe they are to kean to lay blame and not look at a new way forward ?
weatherspoons is typically packed, maybe because they sell cheeper drinks and food? the pubs charge a fortune for a pint(even of coke)then wonder why people rather spend their money on something else.
xx fem xx
Sex God
Smoking ban? It is Wonderful. If you want to kill yourself with smoke then do it in a private place, away from where others don't have to share your carcinogenic emissions.
Yes there is a dichotomy with the sale of Alcohol, but the difference is, you drink a pint of beer or a whisky or three, then it isn't likely to affect me in any way. You smoke and blow it in my and my friends face, then it does. So I am afraid it is tough. Feck off outside in the cold, or give up.
These 'Bleeding heart smokers', really get on my tits. How many innocent deaths have been caused by people having to breathe the polluted shite that passes for air in these places? You do have a choice! Smoke it where it affects nobody else. If it's a public place, you can't because it potentially affects everyone else. Not everyone fancies dying young of lung cancer to protect your rights. What about theirs?
Nobody's stopping you smoking. Just in public places. Instead of whining, why not pop a dummy in your mouth? It's better for you than a cigarette anyway and if the cap fits...
Pubs are closing for two main reasons. Firstly people have less money to spend. Secondly the pubs are charging too much. The pub I go to has seen its takings increase markedly since the smoking ban. That is mainly because more people will eat there now because the air is clean, you don't come out smelling like you've worked a shift at a smelting plant and your food doesn't taste like the contents of an ashtray.
Stop being so bloody selfish, smoke yourself to death in private if you like. But don't expect everyone else to potentially develop lung cancer etc just so you can feed your habit in public.
Incidentally if you are complaining about the additional tax you pay on cigarettes. Take a look around the coronary care unit of your local hospital and see how many of these patients ailments are caused partly or completely by cigarettes. Then tot up the cost of looking after these people. Same goes for alcohol.
Lose the victim mentality. For years smokers killed a great many innocent non smokers via passive smoking. Get a grip and give up or go outside.
(I just wanted to see if I could do an "angry" thread as I've not done one yet really... What do you think? Was it a good first attempt?)
Yes there is a dichotomy with the sale of Alcohol, but the difference is, you drink a pint of beer or a whisky or three, then it isn't likely to affect me in any way. You smoke and blow it in my and my friends face, then it does. So I am afraid it is tough. Feck off outside in the cold, or give up.
These 'Bleeding heart smokers', really get on my tits. How many innocent deaths have been caused by people having to breathe the polluted shite that passes for air in these places? You do have a choice! Smoke it where it affects nobody else. If it's a public place, you can't because it potentially affects everyone else. Not everyone fancies dying young of lung cancer to protect your rights. What about theirs?
Nobody's stopping you smoking. Just in public places. Instead of whining, why not pop a dummy in your mouth? It's better for you than a cigarette anyway and if the cap fits...
Pubs are closing for two main reasons. Firstly people have less money to spend. Secondly the pubs are charging too much. The pub I go to has seen its takings increase markedly since the smoking ban. That is mainly because more people will eat there now because the air is clean, you don't come out smelling like you've worked a shift at a smelting plant and your food doesn't taste like the contents of an ashtray.
Stop being so bloody selfish, smoke yourself to death in private if you like. But don't expect everyone else to potentially develop lung cancer etc just so you can feed your habit in public.
Incidentally if you are complaining about the additional tax you pay on cigarettes. Take a look around the coronary care unit of your local hospital and see how many of these patients ailments are caused partly or completely by cigarettes. Then tot up the cost of looking after these people. Same goes for alcohol.
Lose the victim mentality. For years smokers killed a great many innocent non smokers via passive smoking. Get a grip and give up or go outside.
(I just wanted to see if I could do an "angry" thread as I've not done one yet really... What do you think? Was it a good first attempt?)
Fantastic first attempt Res. But I'm sure you could have injected more venom into it. Which side are you on again :twisted:
Brilliant post Res! 
I have to disagree that alcohol only causes problems for the user.
We must remember the drunken driving and the violence against family and strangers perpetrated by alcohol users.
We must remember the drunken driving and the violence against family and strangers perpetrated by alcohol users.
Quote by benrums0n
I have to disagree that alcohol only causes problems for the user.
We must remember the drunken driving and the violence against family and strangers perpetrated by alcohol users.
A very valid point.
I believe that alcohol causes many problems both social and healthwise.
Yet the Government do not seem to do anything about cheap drink sold at supermarkets. If fags were sold at that much of a loss, there would be an outcry, and it would be stopped.
Sex God
Quote by welikesinglemen
Although I totally agree that smoking is stupid and dangerous and stinky and vile...
I still think we should be given a choice, rememebr when we used to say this was a free country?
But smokers are given a choice? They can smoke outside, or come inside and not smoke? Or they can smoke inside in a private area. That to me is a choice?
Personally I think non-smokers should have the right to breathe cleaner air, moreso than the smokers should have the right to choose where to light up.
I am all for people having the right to choose to smoke or not. I do not advocate taking that away from them at all. But I won't advocate doing it where the health of others can be detrimentally affected. That to me is selfish, unfair and unethical. Rights are called rights because they are right. In this case I don't believe they are. Smoking isn't a right. It is a choice.
And as for the points raised about alcohol, I see the point you are making and I totally agree. However the circumstances are entirely different. Drink Drivers and violent abusers of alcohol have a problem with their attitude as well as the drug. It is a different demon though alcohol and the way to stop it's abuse is not really allied to the price of beer or it's availability. It is changing peoples attitude to it. Not everyone who has access to cheap beer will act like an imbecile because of it. The problem is not caused by the drink, but by people who regularly misuse it. It is that mindset which needs to be changed, rather than any regulation on pricing or availability.
The problem with Alcohol is, doing that effectively seems to be well nigh impossible with the current attitudes towards drinking and alcohol held by a great many people (and also somewhat glorified in the media).
And, saliently, There is no guarantee that a drink driver or violent alcoholic/binge drinker WILL definitely hit me. The chances of that happening, fortunately are slim. I do guarantee that if I inhale second hand smoke every day for X years, it will have a detrimental and potentially catastrophic effect.
Good point though and while every effort needs to be made to stamp out the evils of alcohol, I feel the same vigilance should be in place towards second hand smoke. I don't see why we should be vigilant and unapologetic over one issue, and not the other.
I agree with a lot of that Res but.... when they take in tax from a packet of fags that cost , than I feel what right have they got to take that much, then tell me where I can do my habit?
If smoking is as bad as they say, which I am sure it is then, why don't they just ban it?
We all know why that is. They want and NEED the money it generates. It's double standards in my view.
All I have ever said is that smokers have had their freedoms taken away. They could have easily made a few pubs smoking ones, like they said they would. They said there would NOT be a total ban, but there has been.
I understand non smokers attitudes, but equally they should understand the smokers views too.....but they never do.
If smoking is as bad as they say, which I am sure it is then, why don't they just ban it?
We all know why that is. They want and NEED the money it generates. It's double standards in my view.
All I have ever said is that smokers have had their freedoms taken away. They could have easily made a few pubs smoking ones, like they said they would. They said there would NOT be a total ban, but there has been.
I understand non smokers attitudes, but equally they should understand the smokers views too.....but they never do.
Quote by Resonance
I am all for people having the right to choose to smoke or not. I do not advocate taking that away from them at all. But I won't advocate doing it where the health of others can be detrimentally affected. That to me is selfish, unfair and unethical. Rights are called rights because they are right. In this case I don't believe they are. Smoking isn't a right. It is a choice.
Right on.
I will stand shoulder to shoulder when we ask for unleaded fuels to be banned as it is carcinogenic. I'll be with you when we ask for deisel to be banned due to the dangerous levels of particulates. I'll be with you when we...............what do you mean you don't want to ban these as they are essential? Surely they are a choice as there are other ways to power vehicles but the people want to save their money and not pay out on something that can be brought in now?These poison my children........so those that have an unleaded or deisel car are also selfish and unethical
The only study that was carried out over a long term and having a large study group showed that there was no or negligible risk from passive smoking. The numbers that the pamphlets bleat about are nothing but scare mongering. The figures that the ban came in on was 2-3 in 100,000 could die from passive smoking if they were exposed to thick smoke with no ventillation for an 8 hour working day and 5 day week. It is an awful lot of ifs and buts in that. So where does the 1000's of people being saved come in? If every single worker in the UK was exposed to those conditions then 400-600 would be saved. Looks like a bit of blarney being told by ASH and the NHS to me. Massage the figures a little and people will question it. Massage them a lot and it becomes a panic and people believe it.
Dave_Notts
PS Now a non-smoker................though sad to report that I have been known to nick a fellow swingers cigars when we meet up for a pint.
Sex God
I never mentioned anything about cars. That isn't the issue. I never mentioned anything about banning cigarettes either.
I mentioned merely that smokers do have a choice, and that non smokers equally should have a choice.
Lets say I want to practice my Javelin skills. The field I train on has people playing on it. So I should say "Ah what the heck, I probably won't hurt any of them... It'll just be back luck if I do" and fling them as usual? Or would I choose to go somewhere a little safer for everyone?
Statistics as you say, can be spun every which way. Such as :
I tend to go on evidence I can see for myself. Such as my friend who now after every Wednesday night in the pub for a quiz, doesn't spend most of Thursday wheezing in his inhaler due to the smoke kicking off his asthma every day. Scaremongering? That is the difference I see each week.
Why mention the cars? that's an entirely different issue, last time I looked most vehicles tended to be outside too, where smoking IS allowed. My argument is why inflict on others something potentially harmful, even if you don't believe it to be so, what they don't want simply because you do?
I also believe even 1 life is worth saving, regardless of how many smokers are inconvenienced.
For the record, I'd love all cars to be powered by hydrogen fuel celled and produce nothing but water as a byproduct. I'd happily support that too. Hopefully in time it will come to pass.
I mentioned merely that smokers do have a choice, and that non smokers equally should have a choice.
Lets say I want to practice my Javelin skills. The field I train on has people playing on it. So I should say "Ah what the heck, I probably won't hurt any of them... It'll just be back luck if I do" and fling them as usual? Or would I choose to go somewhere a little safer for everyone?
Statistics as you say, can be spun every which way. Such as :
I tend to go on evidence I can see for myself. Such as my friend who now after every Wednesday night in the pub for a quiz, doesn't spend most of Thursday wheezing in his inhaler due to the smoke kicking off his asthma every day. Scaremongering? That is the difference I see each week.
Why mention the cars? that's an entirely different issue, last time I looked most vehicles tended to be outside too, where smoking IS allowed. My argument is why inflict on others something potentially harmful, even if you don't believe it to be so, what they don't want simply because you do?
I also believe even 1 life is worth saving, regardless of how many smokers are inconvenienced.
For the record, I'd love all cars to be powered by hydrogen fuel celled and produce nothing but water as a byproduct. I'd happily support that too. Hopefully in time it will come to pass.
I also believe that non smokers should have a choice...a choice NOT to go into a smoking pub. But oh no they would bleat that was not the non smoking lobbyists make the loudest noises.
A bit like it is unfair to treat smokers like lepers even though they contribute zillions in taxes.
A bit like it was unfair that the very people who brought in these anti smoking laws were ALL non smokers...funny that. A fair voice there eh?
A bit like it is unfair to treat smokers like lepers even though they contribute zillions in taxes.
A bit like it was unfair that the very people who brought in these anti smoking laws were ALL non smokers...funny that. A fair voice there eh?
Sex God
The evidence about passive smoking is frankly scant Res. However I wont be fool enough to argue the point that if you dislike smoke in your environment then you have a right to have a place to go without it.
Trouble is that smoking is a legal pursuit, and we have the tax revenue to prove it. I'm just fine with you having your own smoke free pubs (although they are all gonna end up glorified steakhouses), but until you get a statute through that makes smoking illegal as a matter of course then I don't really think its fair or moral to prevent any business from making a choice and their clientele making a similar one.
No doubt some of the factors you mentioned are major ones in the difficulties pubs are having currently, but replacing drinkers with restaurant covers isn't an increase in business - its a different business, and there is no arguing that the smoking ban has adversely affected many of the pubs that formerly made a large proportion of their turnover in wet sales.
I can tell you feel strongly about the issue as it is not typical of your usually reasonable and well balanced posts, but by all means good luck getting that total smoking ban through, and good luck plugging the gaping hole in the coffers. It wont happen in our lifetime and so as its legal its an issue of civil liberties, civil liberties for non-smokers AND smokers.
Trouble is that smoking is a legal pursuit, and we have the tax revenue to prove it. I'm just fine with you having your own smoke free pubs (although they are all gonna end up glorified steakhouses), but until you get a statute through that makes smoking illegal as a matter of course then I don't really think its fair or moral to prevent any business from making a choice and their clientele making a similar one.
No doubt some of the factors you mentioned are major ones in the difficulties pubs are having currently, but replacing drinkers with restaurant covers isn't an increase in business - its a different business, and there is no arguing that the smoking ban has adversely affected many of the pubs that formerly made a large proportion of their turnover in wet sales.
I can tell you feel strongly about the issue as it is not typical of your usually reasonable and well balanced posts, but by all means good luck getting that total smoking ban through, and good luck plugging the gaping hole in the coffers. It wont happen in our lifetime and so as its legal its an issue of civil liberties, civil liberties for non-smokers AND smokers.
