Haven't had a soapbox day for ages, so here it is.
Not asking anyone to agree with me but I do welcome discussion, can you change my opinion ? do you agree ?
NHS and those visiting the UK just to use it's facilities.
While the Government and the other parties continue to knock points off each other with debate about the benefits of charging people a "tax" to visit the UK just in case they are only doing so to take advantage of our free health service (free for them not for us)
are they not missing the simple solution ?
If someone can afford to visit the UK surely they can afford health insurance for the duration of the visit can't they ?
Why not pass a law saying that any visitor EU or otherwise MUST have suitable health insurance for the duration of their visit.
Policies start at £14 for a short visit and when I lived in Switizerland I paid only £115 per year for a very comprenhensive policy which covered everything and anything including Air Ambulances.
If the NHS were paid by the insurance companies to treat patients from abroad they could afford to do it, air ambulances and other non funded emergency services could retrieve their costs for assisting people who have not paid a penny into the NHS via National Insurance contributions.
How many here would dream of travelling abroad without holiday/travel insurance ?
Personally I would scrap the NHS free service, keeping the NHS but funding it with 100% insurance policies for all UK residents, citizens and non UK visitors.
The contribution of your Nat Ins payment currently used to fund the NHS would be scrapped making your income tax less and those whose contributions to Nat Ins are paid by the benefits system would also have their insurance polices paid by the benefits system. Nobody would be refused treatment through lack of funds but those who need treatment and should have insurance but don't should be given a bill and made to pay the bill just as you would be made to pay your TV Licence or Council Tax.
The NHS could finally get the funds it needs to give the service it would like to give, in Countries where people fall foul of the system the system is wrong, the USA for example do not have the kind of benefits system we have nor do they have the NHS system we have so people there do worry over what treatment will cost and perhaps avoid treatment but here we can implement a system where that should never happen, where everyone can have an affordable insurance policy either paid for from their income or paid as a part of their benefits.
Wouldn't it be nice to know that immigrants, migrant workers and visitors to the UK were contributing to the NHS just like you do?
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Soapbox day
So channel 4 says the Government have it wrong, the figure for people coming to the UK is a maximum of £300,000 a year, ok it is not the billions the government say it is but I am sure the NHS could do without that £300,000 million bill anyway.
And what about the illegal immigrants living here, would they be able to use the NHS if some form of check/insurance policy was put into place, sure they could get insurance, but then the NHS would be getting the funds for treating them wouldn't it
Of course if you don't have insurance the simple remedy is to chat with your neighbours and borrow their ID, choose a neighbour that is of the Muslim religion and wear a niqab for your appointment :) anonymity has it's advantages :) I for one have many muslim friends who would help me out.
And what about the illegal immigrants living here, would they be able to use the NHS if some form of check/insurance policy was put into place, sure they could get insurance, but then the NHS would be getting the funds for treating them wouldn't it
Of course if you don't have insurance the simple remedy is to chat with your neighbours and borrow their ID, choose a neighbour that is of the Muslim religion and wear a niqab for your appointment :) anonymity has it's advantages :) I for one have many muslim friends who would help me out.
So called "health tourists" coming to this country for treatment are unlikely to be able to take out insurance if they have pre existing illnesses.
Under your proposed scheme, what would happen to people who are employed and therefore not eligible for benefits but have pre existing health problems and are therefore not insurable?
You seem certain that your scheme would work. Have you any idea of the cost of insurance and the amount of income tax/national insurance saved per UK individual?
Under your proposed scheme, what would happen to people who are employed and therefore not eligible for benefits but have pre existing health problems and are therefore not insurable?
You seem certain that your scheme would work. Have you any idea of the cost of insurance and the amount of income tax/national insurance saved per UK individual?
Quote by MidsCouple24
So channel 4 says the Government have it wrong, the figure for people coming to the UK is a maximum of £300,000 a year, ok it is not the billions the government say it is but I am sure the NHS could do without that £300,000 million bill anyway.
And what about the illegal immigrants living here, would they be able to use the NHS if some form of check/insurance policy was put into place, sure they could get insurance, but then the NHS would be getting the funds for treating them wouldn't it
Of course if you don't have insurance the simple remedy is to chat with your neighbours and borrow their ID, choose a neighbour that is of the Muslim religion and wear a niqab for your appointment :) anonymity has it's advantages :) I for one have many muslim friends who would help me out.
The last government figure I heard mention was £500 million
You state 2 figures, £300 K and £300,000 million,
there's a slight difference between the two! Hey shoot me, I made a mistake, Channel 4 say they believe the figure to be around 300 million pounds not the billions the government stated.
You cannot really estimate the cost of the insurance at this time, at the moment it would be very expensive because not many people use it, in countries like Switzerland where everyone uses insurance the prices are a fraction of the cost of the UK, here in the UK at the moment your looking at up to £100 a month (including previous and declared conditions) but that same policy in Switzerland was around £135 a year.
All companies offering policies will cover existing conditions providing they are declared in advance and the premium adjusted accordingly, my partner in Switzerland paid £172 per year when we lived there for 3 years having declared a pre condition of Diabetes, treatment for that condition whilst we were there cost £21000 which was paid for by the insurance company without question (we used a Swiss insurer and recommend anyone getting travel insurance check out the companies registered in their destination as the authorities in those countries tend to react quicker to local companies that they deal with on a regular basis)
Like child benefit, you install an income cut off line, I believe that is £40,000 income at the moment, so, if someone earns less than that the benefits system can help with part or the total cost of the insurance, this would still save a lot of money for the NHS who would be earning a fortune from the care they are paid for by the insurance companies.
You cannot really estimate the cost of the insurance at this time, at the moment it would be very expensive because not many people use it, in countries like Switzerland where everyone uses insurance the prices are a fraction of the cost of the UK, here in the UK at the moment your looking at up to £100 a month (including previous and declared conditions) but that same policy in Switzerland was around £135 a year.
All companies offering policies will cover existing conditions providing they are declared in advance and the premium adjusted accordingly, my partner in Switzerland paid £172 per year when we lived there for 3 years having declared a pre condition of Diabetes, treatment for that condition whilst we were there cost £21000 which was paid for by the insurance company without question (we used a Swiss insurer and recommend anyone getting travel insurance check out the companies registered in their destination as the authorities in those countries tend to react quicker to local companies that they deal with on a regular basis)
Like child benefit, you install an income cut off line, I believe that is £40,000 income at the moment, so, if someone earns less than that the benefits system can help with part or the total cost of the insurance, this would still save a lot of money for the NHS who would be earning a fortune from the care they are paid for by the insurance companies.
There will be people with serious health problems that are uninsurable. Look over the pond to the USA.
You can't really equate the cost of private medical care in the UK today to the cost of a wholly insured health service of tomorrow. They are different beasts.
According to figures I can find, the NHS spending per capita was just under £2000 in 2010-11. What makes you think that insurance companies would charge anything less than this?
UK Citizens can apply for a free European Health insurance Card which provides state medical health at a reduced cost or for free in all EU member states and some non EEA countries. These are reciprocal agreements.
You can't really equate the cost of private medical care in the UK today to the cost of a wholly insured health service of tomorrow. They are different beasts.
According to figures I can find, the NHS spending per capita was just under £2000 in 2010-11. What makes you think that insurance companies would charge anything less than this?
UK Citizens can apply for a free European Health insurance Card which provides state medical health at a reduced cost or for free in all EU member states and some non EEA countries. These are reciprocal agreements.
Sex God
I really don't see why anyone is getting their knickers in a twist about this.
Hospitals just need to employ a couple of accounts clerks whose job it is to visit each patient and complete a treatment payment form. They check identification and if needed, verify insurance details for foreign visitors. This is exactly how it happens in the USA and is neither intrusive, nor unpleasant.
Of course, if we had ID cards, the whole process would be much, much easier.
Personally I really do struggle to understand why anyone would object to this most basic and fundamental piece of NHS auditing that would be neither expensive, nor difficult to implement. We would and do not accept people getting benefits or services at the expense of others in any other walk of life... So why accept this?
Hospitals just need to employ a couple of accounts clerks whose job it is to visit each patient and complete a treatment payment form. They check identification and if needed, verify insurance details for foreign visitors. This is exactly how it happens in the USA and is neither intrusive, nor unpleasant.
Of course, if we had ID cards, the whole process would be much, much easier.
Personally I really do struggle to understand why anyone would object to this most basic and fundamental piece of NHS auditing that would be neither expensive, nor difficult to implement. We would and do not accept people getting benefits or services at the expense of others in any other walk of life... So why accept this?
Sex God
in this day and age of computers and data bases, a matched name, dob and national insurance number should be as good as anything to confirm that we are eligible or not for treatment on the NHS.
Quote by Too Hot
I really don't see why anyone is getting their knickers in a twist about this.
Hospitals just need to employ a couple of accounts clerks whose job it is to visit each patient and complete a treatment payment form. They check identification and if needed, verify insurance details for foreign visitors. This is exactly how it happens in the USA and is neither intrusive, nor unpleasant.
Of course, if we had ID cards, the whole process would be much, much easier.
Personally I really do struggle to understand why anyone would object to this most basic and fundamental piece of NHS auditing that would be neither expensive, nor difficult to implement. We would and do not accept people getting benefits or services at the expense of others in any other walk of life... So why accept this?
I think a couple of accounts clerks is being very optimistic. A &E Departments alone would require a lot more than a couple, never mind a whole hospital.
The US hospitals have to do this as patients are covered by medical insurance. What would happen to those with false IDs and those without insurance?
Quote by Lizaleanrob
in this day and age of computers and data bases, a matched name, dob and national insurance number should be as good as anything to confirm that we are eligible or not for treatment on the NHS.
That's fine for UK citizens Rob but those from the EU and other countries having reciprocal agreements with the UK won't be on a UK database or have national insurance numbers.
Sex God
Quote by Max777
I really don't see why anyone is getting their knickers in a twist about this.
Hospitals just need to employ a couple of accounts clerks whose job it is to visit each patient and complete a treatment payment form. They check identification and if needed, verify insurance details for foreign visitors. This is exactly how it happens in the USA and is neither intrusive, nor unpleasant.
Of course, if we had ID cards, the whole process would be much, much easier.
Personally I really do struggle to understand why anyone would object to this most basic and fundamental piece of NHS auditing that would be neither expensive, nor difficult to implement. We would and do not accept people getting benefits or services at the expense of others in any other walk of life... So why accept this?
I think a couple of accounts clerks is being very optimistic. A &E Departments alone would require a lot more than a couple, never mind a whole hospital.
The US hospitals have to do this as patients are covered by medical insurance. What would happen to those with false IDs and those without insurance?
It is not unreasonable to ask someone to identify themselves. Are we so sensitive that we take offence to being asked to say who we are when we are seeking medical treatment? Those with false id and without insurance are currently getting away with it and unless efforts are made to combat this frauds, they will continue to get away with it.
Orgasminator
what about those that are unconscious or had treatment but subsequently died without regaining conciousness and therefore no one knows if they are eligible for just emergency treatment or the full insurance works.
i am a big believer in the nhs and fully support it. we have insurance when going abroad to cover things like flying home in emergency ambulance but we also have free emergency care with the E111 system within the EU
i am a big believer in the nhs and fully support it. we have insurance when going abroad to cover things like flying home in emergency ambulance but we also have free emergency care with the E111 system within the EU
Sex God
Only half of the UK population works ( )and pay NI so what do the other half do? Add that to the fact that employers pay another, anywhere between 1.5% and 13% of employees income in NI contributions what happens to that?
In 2012–13, National Insurance contributions are forecast to raise
*£105.6 billion. I'm pretty damn sure the workers of the country couldn't afford to take on the NHS funding as it is.
* (Institute for Fiscal Studies)
In 2012–13, National Insurance contributions are forecast to raise
*£105.6 billion. I'm pretty damn sure the workers of the country couldn't afford to take on the NHS funding as it is.
* (Institute for Fiscal Studies)
Sex God
The NHS in my opinion should be 99.9% operated and funded by the country. There should be no "markets" other than a private company that tenders every few years to have a contract to source the equipment and resources at the most reasonable deal to which the NHS would then purchase from the sources found. This should then be monitored by an internal accounts dept to ensure fair play. My world is a too simple one I guess
Sex God
Quote by Max777
in this day and age of computers and data bases, a matched name, dob and national insurance number should be as good as anything to confirm that we are eligible or not for treatment on the NHS.
That's fine for UK citizens Rob but those from the EU and other countries having reciprocal agreements with the UK won't be on a UK database or have national insurance numbers.
you will not get treated in certain countries in the eu with out your e111 card,
there are even certain french hospitals that will not treat you if you are not carrying your card
so no European health card no treatment!! this is also void i would add if there is no passport to back this up
AFAIK the only treatment treaty we have is within the European union Max
The problem is that EU travellers are entitled to any benefits that UK citizens get, for example Child Benefit which is being paid to Polish migrant workers whose children are still resident in Poland.
Switzerland is not an EU member but accepts the E111 card and will provide basic and emergency medical care through it but not full care.
One benefit of making people pay is that illegal immigrants who cannot get health care without an identity check would die and alleviate us of the problem they cause by being here :violin: :giggle:
Switzerland is not an EU member but accepts the E111 card and will provide basic and emergency medical care through it but not full care.
One benefit of making people pay is that illegal immigrants who cannot get health care without an identity check would die and alleviate us of the problem they cause by being here :violin: :giggle:
Quote by Lizaleanrob
in this day and age of computers and data bases, a matched name, dob and national insurance number should be as good as anything to confirm that we are eligible or not for treatment on the NHS.
That's fine for UK citizens Rob but those from the EU and other countries having reciprocal agreements with the UK won't be on a UK database or have national insurance numbers.
you will not get treated in certain countries in the eu with out your e111 card,
there are even certain french hospitals that will not treat you if you are not carrying your card
so no European health card no treatment!! this is also void i would add if there is no passport to back this up
AFAIK the only treatment treaty we have is within the European union Max
See the link below for non EEA countries with reciprocal agreements.
Quote by Lost
The NHS in my opinion should be 99.9% operated and funded by the country. There should be no "markets" other than a private company that tenders every few years to have a contract to source the equipment and resources at the most reasonable deal to which the NHS would then purchase from the sources found. This should then be monitored by an internal accounts dept to ensure fair play. My world is a too simple one I guess
Errrr..
IIRC they did do this (maybe still do it) under the guise of the NHS Executive.
It didn't (couldn't) work. The NHS is too big and cumbersome. The main problem is that, politically, the powers that be want the service providers to make (or appear to make) decisions as close as possible to the point of delivery. The medical profession has its own 'favourites' and would soon go on a 'shroud waving' mission if a patient died whilst they were utilising 'cheapskate' centrally purchased medical 'tat'.
It's a nightmare.
As to Rob's comment about medical care in France (or anywhere else in Europe I guess) emergency medical care is provided without question. No checking documents here whilst you're still in the ambulance to be then refused treatment if there is no evidence of an ability to pay.
For non emergency treatment, you have to pay. Simple. You are given a bill and it is up to you to claim it back from whoever provides the cost of your medical care (in the case of a UK citizen carrying an EHIC, Newcastle on Tyne and/or your medical insurer) but generally, you have to pay initially.
A French citizen carrying a Carte Vitale (medical card issued by their 'Mutuel' - there's no central NHS as such) will only be reimbursed a standard fee (set by Government) for each procedure and if you have chosen a particularly expensive medical practitioner, the balance between his bill and what the 'Mutuel' will fund is paid by you. You pay the Médecin's fee before you leave the surgery (whether you have a CV or not). The 'Mutuel' then reimburse you the standard fee leaving you to bear the balance of the cost. The surgery is equipped with a card reader which transmits the information electronically to the 'Mutuel' at the same time checking its validity. The patient need do no more but await the timely arrival of the funds back into his/her bank account. The Médecin is already paid the full cost when banking your cheque for the procedure. Dentists work under the same arrangement as do the pharmacies for prescription drugs. If you have forgotten your card, pas grave. They present you with a form completed and signed by the Médecin in return for your cheque which you then send off to your 'Mutuel' for reimbursement within the same rules. Just takes longer to get your money back. Reimbursements to your bank account generally take less than a week.
The system seems to work well and quite efficiently :thumbup:
Quote by MidsCouple24
All companies offering policies will cover existing conditions providing they are declared in advance and the premium adjusted accordingly
Are you sure of that? I'd love to know how much I'd have to pay in premiums for the condition I have.
my partner in Switzerland paid £172 per year when we lived there for 3 years having declared a pre condition of Diabetes, treatment for that condition whilst we were there cost £21000 which was paid for by the insurance company without question
£21000 seems an awful lot to treat Diabetes even over 3 years, Diabetes is usually controlled by diet or a combination of medication and diet, but complications associated with Diabetes can occur, did your partner have any. I knew an elderly gentleman who had private medical insurance through an employer, he was diabetic in his later years poor circulation to his lower legs resulted in a double amputation performed privately, he was dumped back on the NHS because Bupa refused him any more treatment.
I didn't mention my condition it is End Stage Renal failure, treatment is dialysis at a cost of about £35,000 pa I've been on dialysis for over 10 years I can't see a private medical insurer offering me cover when they know for certain they'll have to payout.
They did not treat her diabetes, we got a 6 month supply of her needles and insulin from our own doctor each time we visited the UK on our break twice a year, however during one of our tours she took ill and had an attack, spent 10 days in intensive care in a Swiss hospital (2nd to none) and that was what cost the 21 grand.
for the existing condition quote I just googled private medical insurance then declared existing conditions to get the prices perhaps some conditions will vary the price I don't know I didn't spend forever doing it. I just think that making tourists have their own medical travel insurance should be looked into as a better alternative than making them pay the UK Government a tax for visiting here which may put off some tourists but the same tourists will probably already have travel insurance.
Besides there is no guarantee that the revenue the government gets from tourist tax would ever reach the NHS whereas insurance payments could.
I also think the NHS is underfunded and the government should at least look at the personal medical insurance option. I don't know all the answers but surely it is worth looking into.
Besides there is no guarantee that the revenue the government gets from tourist tax would ever reach the NHS whereas insurance payments could.
I also think the NHS is underfunded and the government should at least look at the personal medical insurance option. I don't know all the answers but surely it is worth looking into.
Sex God
Quote by MidsCouple24
They did not treat her diabetes, we got a 6 month supply of her needles and insulin from our own doctor each time we visited the UK on our break twice a year, however during one of our tours she took ill and had an attack, spent 10 days in intensive care in a Swiss hospital (2nd to none) and that was what cost the 21 grand.
£21,000 for ten days in intensive care is mind bogglingly cheap. I had the misfortune to spend 24 hours in an American hospital recently which cost the best part of £14,000 ($21,000). Didn't help that the insurance then tried to welch but they relented in the end.
It was cheap, it cost me £135 for my years insurance, why can't tourists here be made to pay insurance for hospital treatment ?
In response to earlier posts where I got an online quote, the Company phoned today and offered the cover at half the price if I opted for pre-existing conditions not to be covered for the first 2 years but covered thereafter.
As for the rest of the cover was pretty comprehensive including Premium cancer cover, sport injury, ski-ing (I ski and stipulated this) leisure activity cover (my pole dancing) and so on.
In response to earlier posts where I got an online quote, the Company phoned today and offered the cover at half the price if I opted for pre-existing conditions not to be covered for the first 2 years but covered thereafter.
As for the rest of the cover was pretty comprehensive including Premium cancer cover, sport injury, ski-ing (I ski and stipulated this) leisure activity cover (my pole dancing)
and so on. oh my god, where do I start?
1, so how about 'if you cause a road accident, or a breakdown' because your car is old and crap. you incur all the costs incurred due to police or breakdown making delays on the motorway etc.
2, if you incur costs because you're old and fat and need hospital treatment you have to pay for it
3 if you incur costs because you smoked at any time in your life you either pay for it or die
4 if you're poor then if you can't afford to pay for you chidrens school meals then you go to the workhouse and pick up rubbish 9 -3 while your children are at school
5 if you're on benefits because you're old and need a pension and haven't bothered to save for it then just see the local health service and they will arrange a free visit to the euthanasia clinic to wipe your name off the benefits list
6 if you're a single parent you'll be steralised so you can't cause any more overcrowding in social housing or be a drain on the economy
7 if you're a single parent and out of work you'll be shot if you're anything other than white and born in the uk in the last 10 years
8 if you're not educated at eton or harrow and don't tale posh, and no cambride or oxford isn't good enough, you'll be shot if you don't vote tory
9 if you don't think dear old nick clegg is wonderful then you're name is not only on the list, it's bloody well close to the top!
10 and, as of todays news, if you are stupid enough to trust the police, move to just above those morons at place number 9 and I will pull the trigger myself!!!!!!
1, so how about 'if you cause a road accident, or a breakdown' because your car is old and crap. you incur all the costs incurred due to police or breakdown making delays on the motorway etc.
2, if you incur costs because you're old and fat and need hospital treatment you have to pay for it
3 if you incur costs because you smoked at any time in your life you either pay for it or die
4 if you're poor then if you can't afford to pay for you chidrens school meals then you go to the workhouse and pick up rubbish 9 -3 while your children are at school
5 if you're on benefits because you're old and need a pension and haven't bothered to save for it then just see the local health service and they will arrange a free visit to the euthanasia clinic to wipe your name off the benefits list
6 if you're a single parent you'll be steralised so you can't cause any more overcrowding in social housing or be a drain on the economy
7 if you're a single parent and out of work you'll be shot if you're anything other than white and born in the uk in the last 10 years
8 if you're not educated at eton or harrow and don't tale posh, and no cambride or oxford isn't good enough, you'll be shot if you don't vote tory
9 if you don't think dear old nick clegg is wonderful then you're name is not only on the list, it's bloody well close to the top!
10 and, as of todays news, if you are stupid enough to trust the police, move to just above those morons at place number 9 and I will pull the trigger myself!!!!!!
Quote by capricornten
oh my god, where do I start?
1, so how about 'if you cause a road accident, or a breakdown' because your car is old and crap. you incur all the costs incurred due to police or breakdown making delays on the motorway etc.
2, if you incur costs because you're old and fat and need hospital treatment you have to pay for it
3 if you incur costs because you smoked at any time in your life you either pay for it or die
4 if you're poor then if you can't afford to pay for you chidrens school meals then you go to the workhouse and pick up rubbish 9 -3 while your children are at school
5 if you're on benefits because you're old and need a pension and haven't bothered to save for it then just see the local health service and they will arrange a free visit to the euthanasia clinic to wipe your name off the benefits list
6 if you're a single parent you'll be steralised so you can't cause any more overcrowding in social housing or be a drain on the economy
7 if you're a single parent and out of work you'll be shot if you're anything other than white and born in the uk in the last 10 years
8 if you're not educated at eton or harrow and don't tale posh, and no cambride or oxford isn't good enough, you'll be shot if you don't vote tory
9 if you don't think dear old nick clegg is wonderful then you're name is not only on the list, it's bloody well close to the top!
10 and, as of todays news, if you are stupid enough to trust the police, move to just above those morons at place number 9 and I will pull the trigger myself!!!!!!
Sorry I am confused who is suggesting whatever they are suggesting to make you write this list ?
