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Quote by starlightcouple

Some of them may be teensy bit pissed off about the events after 1945 !

Nowhere near as pissed off if they were run and controlled by Hitler and the SS, had Germany have been the victors eh?
If some of them are now a bit pissed off because of any event after 1945, some might say maybe then we should have just ignored the pact, and let Germany have had their way with Poland.
Still I am sure Poland are more than aware of that fact, and in their history books always be grateful to this great and proud nation for saving their necks and their country, from the tyrant that was Adolf Hitler and his henchmen.
And the French from everyone else eh, star wink
Quote by GnV

Some of them may be teensy bit pissed off about the events after 1945 !

Nowhere near as pissed off if they were run and controlled by Hitler and the SS, had Germany have been the victors eh?
If some of them are now a bit pissed off because of any event after 1945, some might say maybe then we should have just ignored the pact, and let Germany have had their way with Poland.
Still I am sure Poland are more than aware of that fact, and in their history books always be grateful to this great and proud nation for saving their necks and their country, from the tyrant that was Adolf Hitler and his henchmen.
And the French from everyone else eh, star wink
Not at all GnV. The French also honoured the pact with Poland, and France lost a hell of a lot because of the second world war. That can never be ignored in the history books.:thumbup:
Quote by starlightcouple
Still I am sure Poland are more than aware of that fact, and in their history books always be grateful to this great and proud nation for saving their necks and their country, from the tyrant that was Adolf Hitler and his henchmen.

I was referring to this statement star. You seem to like reminding the French that they too were 'saved by this great and proud nation'.
Quote by GnV

Still I am sure Poland are more than aware of that fact, and in their history books always be grateful to this great and proud nation for saving their necks and their country, from the tyrant that was Adolf Hitler and his henchmen.

I was referring to this statement star. You seem to like reminding the French that they too were 'saved by this great and proud nation'.
Oh right sorry GnV. I was also aware that France surrendered to the Germans in 1940 only a year into the war.

So on that basis I think that Britain was there at the end in 1945 victorious. Or is history not correct?
Quote by star
So on that basis I think that Britain was there at the end in 1945 victorious. Or is history not correct?

They didn't do it single handed.
The French Resistance, the Americans, The Poles (yes, they were there too) to name just a few....
Quote by flower
I`m sure they should be eternally grateful

And star won't let them forget....
Quote by flower411
So on that basis I think that Britain was there at the end in 1945 victorious. Or is history not correct?

They didn't do it single handed.
The French Resistance, the Americans, The Poles (yes, they were there too) to name just a few....
And Poland was simply handed over to another tyrant ...... I`m sure they should be eternally grateful rolleyes
GNV it is no use trying to help educate some people.
Seems this country for some seems invincible standing alone without any support from others, you can't make people see what they don't want to see. Some want to think this country became great and won our freedom just by the English man.
I just hope some never have troubles and need others to help and support their unfairness and injustice and can fight alone. wink
Quote by GnV
I`m sure they should be eternally grateful

And star won't let them forget....
No not just Star GnV........HISTORY will never forget either, and that is what France hates that they cannot escape their past. Lasting a year GnV before they capitulated ain't long really is it? rolleyes
Quote by Theladyisaminx
GNV it is no use trying to help educate some people.
Seems this country for some seems invincible standing alone without any support from others, you can't make people see what they don't want to see. Some want to think this country became great and won our freedom just by the English man.
I just hope some never have troubles and need others to help and support their unfairness and injustice and can fight alone. wink

By educate I suppose you mean me Minx?
Did I not say already about the Americans?? I would presume that your memory is not that bad that you have forgotten the American flag I posted? rolleyes
Poland and France fell before the first hurdle, as least Britain got around the final bend.
Quote by star
Poland and France fell before the first hurdle, as least Britain got around the final bend.

But not without the Poles and the French.....
Quote by starlightcouple

GNV it is no use trying to help educate some people.
Seems this country for some seems invincible standing alone without any support from others, you can't make people see what they don't want to see. Some want to think this country became great and won our freedom just by the English man.
I just hope some never have troubles and need others to help and support their unfairness and injustice and can fight alone. wink

By educate I suppose you mean me Minx?
Did I not say already about the Americans?? I would presume that your memory is not that bad that you have forgotten the American flag I posted? rolleyes
Poland and France fell before the first hurdle, as least Britain got around the final bend.
Star I have two questions for you.
Why did Britain get involved in the war in the first place?
What or who were the British defending?
Hot I am sorry I have somewhat hijacked this treat that wasn't my intention.
Quote by dsfrancetoo
Just cannot understand why so many harp on about the Poles who served with the RAF and forget the thousands of Polish Nazi's who served in the German army, including many who served as guards on concentration camps.

Can you blame them? All of them? I think generally speaking there was a tendency towards conscription of civilians into the armed forces whether they were up for it or not? Europe-wide apparently, can you Adam and Eve it? It's my understanding that we were still shooting young men who weren't all that up for it as late as 1918? I think our contintental chums were doing that still later? In those circumstances you'd probably do whatever you needed to survive, wouldn't you?
Quote by Theladyisaminx
Star I have two questions for you.
Why did Britain get involved in the war in the first place?
What or who were the British defending?

That information for those that do not know is readily available over the internet. I know the answers to both of those questions but I am going to refrain from answering Minx. I think whatever I reply with will not be good enough for you, and as you obviously know so much more about British history leading up to and including WW2, I shall let you answer. Well it would be rude of me not to allow you to do that.
Quote by Theladyisaminx
Hot I am sorry I have somewhat hijacked this treat that wasn't my intention.

But you did anyways. :bounce: But as an aside, why are you appologising to Hot for? It was not even his thread Minx. rolleyes
Quote by GnV
Just cannot understand why so many harp on about the Poles who served with the RAF and forget the thousands of Polish Nazi's who served in the German army, including many who served as guards on concentration camps.

I think that's an unfair argument to be honestThe same could be said of the Alsacians (refers particularly to the Waffen SS) who were subsumed into German Command.
Not actually an argument GnV just wondering why only one part of the story is ever mentioned.
Quote by dsfrancetoo
just wondering why only one part of the story is ever mentioned.

Usually the important bits are the start and the finish. Of course there were many parts in that particular war, in fact too many to list. Dreadful atrocities against the Jews and the Polish people for sure. Concentration camps that rightly will never be forgotten, and mistakes by Hitler that eventually led to his downfall.
I would be interested to hear the other parts of this war that are of interest to you, from a historical purpose.
One of those for me was the Battle of Britain, where our rag and bob tail air force( compared to Germany's )defeated the might of the German air machine in that it never gained the air supremacy Hitler demanded for Operation Sea Lion. A huge turning point in the war.
The Luftwaffe never gained air supremacy because Britain had the Spitfire. If the story told about the BoB is correct, a Luftwaffe commander when asked what he needed to beat the British retorted ”Spitfires, I need Spitfires"!
What I think dsfrance is referring to about the Alcasians star is the dreadful atrocity at Oradour sur Glane which is not far from where they (and us) live in France. Only a part of the story is being told clearly; there is much more behind it - much of it untold, particularly the bits about the members of the WaffenSS who were inexplicably exonerated after the war by the newly formed de Gaulle Government.
Is this some kind of competition to see who can Google the most information about WW2 ?
I understand the thread to be about DC wanting to take a European lead to reform the unaccountability and inefficiencies that exist and to make Europe what it was always meant to be - as opposed to what it has become.
Really not sure what this has got to do with us being grateful to Poland, or despising Germans cos some of them were Nazi's. That was then and this is now, we are in the here and now dealing with about 3,000,000 Europeans who currently live and work freely in Europe and around 2,000,000 Brits that live and work freely in Europe.
I think that the anti European stance seems to be to ignore the fact that the 3,000,000 contribute more than they take out (see UCL study in earlier thread) and to undertake a bit of "posh" ethnic cleansing and "send them back." Wonder what will happen to the 2,000,000 Brits living and working in the rest of Europe? Will we see the likes of GnV marched out of France and deposited on the beaches of Dunkirk to make their own way back to the great and glorious England?
Quote by TH
Will we see the likes of GnV marched out of France and deposited on the beaches of Dunkirk to make their own way back to the great and glorious England?

The expat sites are awash with comments about this TH. I don't see that this will ever happen. Indeed, I don't see that the British people will ever be trusted with a referendum on such an important matter as remaining in Europe. But, I do take star's point about immigrants being a drain on resources such as health care. When I'm 65, my healthcare in France will be paid for by the UK under the S1 reciprocal arrangements. In the meantime, we have to be certain that we are not a drain on the French system.
It should be no different for EU nationals who have chosen to settle in the UK.
Quote by GnV
Will we see the likes of GnV marched out of France and deposited on the beaches of Dunkirk to make their own way back to the great and glorious England?

The expat sites are awash with comments about this TH. I don't see that this will ever happen. Indeed, I don't see that the British people will ever be trusted with a referendum on such an important matter as remaining in Europe. But, I do take star's point about immigrants being a drain on resources such as health care. When I'm 65, my healthcare in France will be paid for by the UK under the S1 reciprocal arrangements. In the meantime, we have to be certain that we are not a drain on the French system.
It should be no different for EU nationals who have chosen to settle in the UK.
How can economic immigrants be a drain on healthcare if they contribute more than they take out? All of this debate right across the country stems from one fundamental issue. As Brits we love to have a scapegoat for all of our own problems. We are British for goodness sake, a great and glorious country, how can it be our fault that as a nation we have a social defecit because our citizens expect more in return for giving less. Meanwhile other nationalities come in with an entirely different work ethic and end up giving more (in tax) and taking less in benefits.
Quote by Too Hot
How can economic immigrants be a drain on healthcare if they contribute more than they take out? All of this debate right across the country stems from one fundamental issue. As Brits we love to have a scapegoat for all of our own problems. We are British for goodness sake, a great and glorious country, how can it be our fault that as a nation we have a social defecit because our citizens expect more in return for giving less. Meanwhile other nationalities come in with an entirely different work ethic and end up giving more (in tax) and taking less in benefits.

Hot you do make me laugh. Nobody is using anyone for a scapegoat mate, what people are clearly saying is enough is enough on the immigration front. What you have to ask yourself is why so many have come here. In Poland a worker would expect on average £150 per week yet over here they can earn a lot more than that. They have been known to share everything such as living accommodation so as to hugely reduce their outgoings, so they can send money at all wrong in that but I think we should have addressed the unemployed issue years ago and got the British workers off their arses.
Do you have any idea why there is a fine for employers that take on illegal staff? The company that I have just started work with is asking me for all my relevant documents which proves I am legal to work in the UK. You really think they brought that law in because there are one or two illegal immigrants here? There are so many that the laws for employment were changed. We talk about the legal ones here TH but there are by some estimates as many illegals here working on the black market. Yet these people are still entitled to use our schools and our health care. I don't see these people contributing feck all into the system, estimates say possibly 2.4 million of these here. Is that ok too?
You paint a very black and white picture of things TH, when in reality things are never that simple. When the population hits 80 million here, and you are nicely tucked up in your retirement maybe then you will realise the error of mass immigration when you look at your Grand kids and their future. You have your outlook and beliefs and many others would never agree with your take on the way things actually are in inner cities. The health service is at breaking point. Schools are forced to take on migrant children into their schools, and now GP's are going to be forced to take on patients who may not even be entitled to be here.
Are you seriously saying that when the floodgates open for Romanian and Bulgarian people to come here, they are coming here with skilled workers to help our economy? They have seen the streets of London paved with gold ( benefits and houses ), and the Government is so concerned that they want to paint a grim picture of the UK, in the hope they will not swamp us. No Minister will dare to even guess the possible numbers who will flock here, as the last time they did that they said tens of thousands would come, yet millions came. So if these two countries citizens are allowed entry TH , what will these people be bringing to the UK? Will these people be contributing more than they will take out? :doh:

All in the name of European unity eh?
OK - You clearly don't want to make any effort at all to understand the issues.
In this country there are approximately 50% of the population working and about 35% of the population in retirement. If there were no immigration then the ratio of people working against those retired will decrease. This increases the defecit because less workerts are having to support an increasing population of retired people.
The most basic of economic assesments indicates that this is unsustainable and more tax revenue is needed. The country needs MORE not LESS working people. If it is easier to get European migrants in who are known to pay more in taxes than they take out in benefits then the defecit issue is tackled in multiple ways. More tax revenue to support the current welfare expenditure on the native population and more tax revenue to pay for the increasing number of retired people.
Every job that a European immigrant has had has been open to a UK national resident. The reality is that 3,000,000 or so Europeans have arrived here and taken jobs that Brits did not want. In many cases new Companies and new jobs have been created whilst the long term (native) unemployed continued to moan that there are no "good" jobs.
If you can't see that the UK needs migrant workers then you are truly blinkered and your vision of Utopia Anglo Saxon Glorious UK is about as flawed as anything could ever be X 100.
Illegal immigrants are general not European migrants. This thread is about European migrants and your wish along with others to end the free movement of labour across Europe and get the Europeans out of this country.
Quote by Too Hot
Illegal immigrants are general not European migrants. This thread is about European migrants and your wish along with others to end the free movement of labour across Europe and get the Europeans out of this country.

No I am not looking at getting the Europeans out, just to stop the tide of those aiming to come in. There is a difference that I am sure even you can see. Are you seriously saying that it will be a great thing for the UK to have the influx of Romanians and Bulgarians, coming to the UK? They will all be workers coming here to make this country great and prosperous again? Oh dear.
Do you think that the huge increase in the countries population is a good thing too? I mean with all the extra workers we now have why is it that the country is in a worse financial state than it has ever been in? I mean with three million extra people working I would have thought we would have been swimming in pound coins. rolleyes
The population of England and Wales has grown by in the 10 years since the last census, rising from in 2001, an increase of 7.1%. This was the largest growth in the population in England and Wales in any 10-year period since census taking began, in 1801.
When the population hits 70 or even 80 million TH will it be this wonderful rich country with everyone working, that you think it will be? I mean with all those extra people and all those extra workers here, services like hospitals and schools will be so much more the richer for it.:doh:
Why with all these extra people here, why does it seem that the essential services cannot cope, and that we are all having to get used to these austerity thingys? Why can you not see that this country has a limit to the amount of people we can handle? More people does not mean more people working and paying their way. More people equates to more strain on essential services that not only national Government have to supply, but just as important local Government just does not have the resources or the money to be able to cope. In your world of owning your own business and obviously doing very well, you are failing to see the real problem. Maybe not deliberately failing to see it, but failing to see it all the same.
You really should live in an inner city for a few months and have to rely on those services TH, because your comments and beliefs are just so far off the real world mark.
Quote by star
No I am not looking at getting the Europeans out, just to stop the tide of those aiming to come in.

How many times does TH and others including myself have to say this star?
European migrants coming to live and work in the UK are not a drain on resources, far from it. They contribute significantly to the UK economy and put more in than they take out.
Oh that the same could be said about some of the lazy, good for nothing moaning Brits who believe that the world and his wife owe them and their equally awful children a living just because they hold British citizenship.
If, like France and Spain, people coming to live in the UK from within the European community - which is their right - they must prove their ability to remain in the UK without being a drain on the public purse, where is the problem with that?
If the UK fails to manage the situation appropriately, it is not the incomers who are at fault but the UK government and ultimately the electorate who put them there.
Threatening to leave Europe is akin to slamming the stable door after the horse has bolted. If a problem stems from non Europeans entering the country illegally and being allowed to remain (and be given financial benefits for doing so) that has nothing whatsoever to do with Europe and the retrieving of powers given away by the last Labour Administration.
Leaving Europe won't change that position at all.
Anyway, having said that just remember that snow is the only thing that settles in Britain from off the continent that doesn't claim fucking benefits.
Seems the British are once again coming to France's aid.
Quote by starlightcouple
Seems the British are once again coming to France's aid.

Nope.
The UK is coming to the aid of the Malians rolleyes
Quote by GnV
Seems the British are once again coming to France's aid.

Nope.
The UK is coming to the aid of the Malians rolleyes
Are they? Seems they are there to aid the French. Why the fuck should the UK give a damn about the Malians?
Anyways the British cannot defeat a bunch of rag and bob tail Taliban in Afghanistan so this should be a much easier proposition for the British. Think the 300 odd personnel they are sending there, is about a third of the British army now after all the cuts to the armed forces.
UN Security Council resolution isn't it Star, would be quite remiss of us as Security Council members to vote through an intervention and then refuse to chuck some personnel and hardware at it. None-combat role, though I suspect that might well change. For the moment though we're content to wheel out a couple of the usual big guns, see if they can't sort it out. I hear Bono and Bob Geldof are already selecting their hats in readiness for their photo ops. Shame they've just missed their slot for a Xmas single. Still, there's always next Xmas, time enough yet. ;)
Quote by star
Why the fuck should the UK give a damn about the Malians?

To help stop Islamist rebels from gaining ground on the UK's doorstep?
Quote by GnV
Why the fuck should the UK give a damn about the Malians?

To help stop Islamist rebels from gaining ground on the UK's doorstep?
What a bit like Afghanistan you mean GnV? rolleyes
All those lives lost and for what? The pulling out of our troops is a face saving exercise as within 3 years I guarantee Afghanistan will be back to what it was prior to the USA and UK invasion.
Now we are being led down another useless path to nowhere. Still it is not British politicians that will be on the front line, fighting a lost cause. No they will be tucking into their roast fillet of Cornish Mullet in their susidised eateries.
Pass the sick bucket. I hope they all get food poisoning.
Quote by neilinleeds
UN Security Council resolution isn't it Star, would be quite remiss of us as Security Council members to vote through an intervention and then refuse to chuck some personnel and hardware at it. None-combat role, though I suspect that might well change. For the moment though we're content to wheel out a couple of the usual big guns, see if they can't sort it out. I hear Bono and Bob Geldof are already selecting their hats in readiness for their photo ops. Shame they've just missed their slot for a Xmas single. Still, there's always next Xmas, time enough yet. ;)

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