Join the most popular community of UK swingers now
Login

The incredibly dangerous ash cloud.... or not?

last reply
25 replies
1.7k views
0 watchers
0 likes
So, There are thousands stranded around the world, cargo rots in hangars, business meetings, holidays and millions of personally urgent meetings and events are in limbo. Airlines and economies are losing millions and millions of pounds every passing hour and the general public perception is that modern jet aircraft cannot fly in atmospheric conditions where volcanic ash is present.
The headlines are there for all to see, it is sensational in as much as it is unprecedented and the fact is the volcano could continue erupting for years and with it comes the threat of major airlines going bust, national economies collapsing back into recession and untold difficulties for a European population that take air travel for granted.
The science behind this unprecedented situation comes from primarily one incident of a British Airways flight that lost all four engines when transiting directly through the plume of an actively erupting volcano in the Philipines. A similar event happened in Alaska where an airliner suffered engine failure when flying through an erupting plume and other similar events have happened in zones of high density volcanic ash.
Considering that there are volcano's erupting somewhere in the world all the time it stands to reason that there would be some levels of volcanic ash in the atmosphere all of the time. There are a couple of questions:
1) What concentrations of volcanic ash can safely be ingested by a jet engine?
2) What are the actual levels of ash concentration in the skies above Europe right now?
The answer to Question (1) should be readily available - as should the answer to Question (2) but it may surprise you to learn that despite this unprecedented situation no-one has actually measured the levels of ash in our atmosphere and that this whole situation has come about because of computer models created by the UK Met Office.
Yes, it is true - a single solitary source of predictions/projections has resulted in the grounding of all of Europe's airspace. Is it any wonder then that our European cousins are now demanding a re-evaluation of the situation and some facts as opposed to predictions from an entity already seriously in disrepute.


From the world that brought you - Swine Flu, Mad Cow disease, Weapons of Mass Destruction and now - Volcanic ash plumes
I would guess that the wind direction (oevr a heavilly populated, and dense air-traffic zone) and the particular density/consistancy of the ash in that area posed a particularly high, and rather unique (due to the ash vapourising through ic, so I understand) that has caused extra concern in unprecidented circumstances.
I wouldn't like to be the person declaring the air-space safe due to financial pressures from outside, and then be the proud witness of dozens of happy holiday maker-filled airliners plummet from the skies.
lp
Quote by __random_orbit__
I would guess that the wind direction (oevr a heavilly populated, and dense air-traffic zone) and the particular density/consistancy of the ash in that area posed a particularly high, and rather unique (due to the ash vapourising through ic, so I understand) that has caused extra concern in unprecidented circumstances.
I wouldn't like to be the person declaring the air-space safe due to financial pressures from outside, and then be the proud witness of dozens of happy holiday maker-filled airliners plummet from the skies.
lp

Yes, I think this sums it up. If the situation should crop up again in the future, then everyone will be prepared for it, but this time caution must be the best policy - and another thing, the European authorities are being asked to make this decision right after the loss of the Polish President's plane too, even if the cause was different, those in control will be nervous
Plim
Funny part is that the VAAD satelite shows NO plumes.
inb4...
Volcano's don't exist, Volcano is a CIA plant, Big phama will be offering TammiAsh® to protect against toxic ash, Eurasia , oil pipe lines etc...
When I heard there was a big cloud of fine powder coming from Iceland I thought Kerry Katona had sneezed.
Revisiting this today and we find that the pressure is building and test aircraft have returned unscathed, unmarked and in perfect working condition.
A good report on the BBC today:
Quote by jdwxxx
inb4...
Volcano's don't exist, Volcano is a CIA plant, Big phama will be offering TammiAsh® to protect against toxic ash, Eurasia , oil pipe lines etc...
thank you for the compliment jdw.
just goes to show that even if you disagree with me and zbzignew brezinski's strategic plans to maintain america's primacy, my explanation (the truth) of what the war in afghanistan is about,
the declaration of a pandemic by the u.n. in the interests of big phaRma
and the existence of an all powerful, all seeing international terrorist group with an unaging leader able to strike at will makes you think and remember.
once again thank you.
Quote by gulsonroad30664
inb4...
Volcano's don't exist, Volcano is a CIA plant, Big phama will be offering TammiAsh® to protect against toxic ash, Eurasia , oil pipe lines etc...
thank you for the compliment jdw.
just goes to show that even if you disagree with me and zbzignew brezinski's strategic plans to maintain america's primacy, my explanation (the truth) of what the war in afghanistan is about,
the declaration of a pandemic by the u.n. in the interests of big phaRma
and the existence of an all powerful, all seeing international terrorist group with an unaging leader able to strike at will makes you think and remember.
once again thank you.
Don't take it the wrong way... i respect your opinion, I may not agree but I enjoy reading your posts
Quote by jdwxxx
inb4...
Volcano's don't exist, Volcano is a CIA plant, Big phama will be offering TammiAsh® to protect against toxic ash, Eurasia , oil pipe lines etc...
thank you for the compliment jdw.
just goes to show that even if you disagree with me and zbzignew brezinski's strategic plans to maintain america's primacy, my explanation (the truth) of what the war in afghanistan is about,
the declaration of a pandemic by the u.n. in the interests of big phaRma
and the existence of an all powerful, all seeing international terrorist group with an unaging leader able to strike at will makes you think and remember.
once again thank you.
Don't take it the wrong way... i respect your opinion, I may not agree but I enjoy reading your postsbritish airways and other airlines will get a bailout from the authorities that declared the no fly, not that they should because they loose less when grounded than they do when they fly. n.b. watch out for another overdue "big" event on the horizon reeling in public support for action against iran.
Interesting story and pictures here:

When British Airways state that their test flight suffered no damage I wonder if they bothered to boroscope their engines?
Quote by swcpl2005
I wonder if they bothered to boroscope their engines?

yet another subjest I believe you'll have to talk to BIoke about.
lp
Quote by swcpl2005
Interesting story and pictures here:

When British Airways state that their test flight suffered no damage I wonder if they bothered to boroscope their engines?

They'll be required to by the engine manufacturers who may still own them. Many engines are actually 'sold' on a power-by-the-hour basis and owned and sevice by the engine manufacturer.
And it may even be the CAA and FAA that are driving the safety checks. I wouldn'y be at all surprised if the service intervals will be reduced for any aircraft that fly in the known region affected by the ash.

and the fluoride can be passed on to those eating the meat and drinking the milk. That dust is now falling on Britain. Levels of fluoride are being monitored. As yet we are not in danger.
It's more than dust!
Quote by swcpl2005
Interesting story and pictures here:

When British Airways state that their test flight suffered no damage I wonder if they bothered to boroscope their engines?

The engines in a fighter attack aircraft are manufactured to the very highest of tolerances because they have to operate at extreme temperatures, pressures and speed. Engines in airliners are built in a different way and the comparison is like a professional athlete compared to a Sunday league player - or a Ferrari to a land Rover Discovery.
A typical Airbus engine life is probably in the region of 6,000 hours and even at this rate - sand, dust, soot and other airborne debris (including volcanic ash) could require parts being replaced and overhauled beforehand.
The airline argument is that the theory of volcanic ash stopping an engine is based on an aircraft flying through an oxygen depleted active plume of a discharging volcano - NOT the residue that is currently hanging around our skies and the behaviour of which has been assessed by the UK Met Office theoretically. The airlines will quite rightly say that if the ash is causing excess wear and tear - so be it. The engine will be changed at less than 6,000 hours and there will be cost implications but this is still better than the outrageous cost of being grounded for unfounded theoretical reasons.

The damage was 80 million US$; there was 80 kg ash in each turbine; it took 3 months work to repair the plane


The cloud sandblasted the windscreen and landing light covers and clogged the engines. As the ash entered the engines, it melted in the combustion chambers and adhered to the inside of the power-plant. As the engine cooled from not running and as the aircraft descended out of the ash cloud, the molten ash solidified and enough broke off to allow air to flow smoothly through the engine allowing a successful restart. The engines had enough electrical power to restart because one generator and the onboard batteries were still operative; generator or battery power is required for ignition of the engines.
Engines one, two and three were replaced at Jakarta, as well as the windscreen, and the fuel tanks were cleared of the ash that had entered them through the pressurisation ducts, contaminating the fuel and requiring that it be disposed of. After being ferried back to London, engine number four was replaced and major work was undertaken to return the aircraft to service


This fine volcanic ash is a hazard to modem jet aircraft because the operating temperatures of jet engines are above the solidus temperature of volcanic ash, and because ash causes abrasion of windows and airframe, and disruption of avionics. At large distances(10(exp 2)-10(exp 4) km or more) from their source, drifting ash clouds are increasingly difficult to distinguish from meteorological clouds, both visually and on radar

The British airways jet flew 60 miles from an actively discharging vent straight into the plume. The density of this plume had they flown through it in daylight would have turned day into night.
This is hardly a comparison to todays events but ironically The Met Office made the same assumptions that you have and that is how the "crisis" unfurled.
Airliners pass throgh dispersed plumes of volcanic ash every day of their working lives because at any one time there are 20 active volcano's erupting somewhere on earth. Now take one very small one - in Iceland - and it has grounded Europe. There are 19 others going off right now - where do you think their plumes are? They are dispersing into the atmosphere.
Be Honest,
How many of us here at home endulged in a little 'Schadenfreude' towards those stranded travellers and their tales of woe?

:twisted: lol :twisted:
I did rob. Especially the callers on radio 4 bleating about Jocasta being unable to get back from the fencing tournament.
This just about is bang on the money big time...

Perfectly put.
Yaknow Kent I think I agree.
Careful Benny.....don't want anyone thinking you are agreeing with me. lol
But yes a fantastic piece and I believe a lot of truth in it too.
Quote by kentswingers777
This just about is bang on the money big time...

Perfectly put.

Will Mad Max be criticising the RAF for grounding their Typhoons yesterday then?
Quote by awayman
Will Mad Max be criticising the RAF for grounding their Typhoons yesterday then?

As with the Finnish Air Force F16/F18 military jets, the engines in the Typhoon are a different beast to those found on passenger jets. Like comparing a Ferrari to a Land Rover. Different tolerences, more intensive maintenance schedules and they operate on the very edge of high performance at all times like a highly tuned athlete.
The difference between military aircraft and civilian aircraft engines is better described thus:
If the military engine suffers failure or drastically reduced power, the crew eject and are alive (if a bit injured).
If the civil aircraft suffers engine failure or drastically reduced power, the crew and passengers suffer rapid death.
Or:
It's just the bottom line: The airline loses money. Never mind the passengers.
Quote by JTS
The difference between military aircraft and civilian aircraft engines is better described thus:
If the military engine suffers failure or drastically reduced power, the crew eject and are alive (if a bit injured).
If the civil aircraft suffers engine failure or drastically reduced power, the crew and passengers suffer rapid death.
Or:
It's just the bottom line: The airline loses money. Never mind the passengers.

It is so easy on an anonymous internet forum to post total twaddle like this because there is no fear of being embarrassed.
Hardly even worthy of a response and such a shame that some might actually "want" to believe what you you have said.