ukip on the rise

3 Dec 2012

Quote by starlightcouple
That old adage does not exist in British society and certainly not from Parliament. Whips bring MP's into line with threats if they dare vote against their party, democracy indeed.

Quote by HnS
So 'free votes' and defying the 'whip' never occurs ?
Up to each MP as to how they vote and speak, easily checked (Hansard) by those who voted for them and once elected by the whole Constituency electorate whom they say that they'll represent.
Perhaps you'd like to engage with your MP on their voting record ?
(can be a 'highly enteraining' excercise)

Yes it occurs HnS, but you know that defying the party leader can be political suicide so they only vote usually when there is a ' free vote' such as giving prisoners the vote. No it is not up to each MP how they vote HnS and to even imply such a thing is pushing things even for you.
MP's vote usually with the party for fear of having the Whip removed and being almost ostracised within their own party. Yes it occasionaly happens but certainly not a democratic process as you first implied, with the threat hanging over any MP who defies his or her party. Now real democracy would be a ' free ' vote in ALL votes. Does that happen now HnS? So not quite a democratic process then?

5 Dec 2012

Seems like UKIP is on the rise after all.

A record 13% and rising. Well if the Lib Dems have shared power with the Tories on less of a percentage than UKIP currently has, that could mean more power sharing in the future but with UKIP being the one in joint power.
I used that article as it was the first one to hand, there are plenty of other sources that back it up if you look.

5 Dec 2012

Quote by starlightcouple
Seems like UKIP is on the rise after all.

A record 13% and rising. Well if the Lib Dems have shared power with the Tories on less of a percentage than UKIP currently has, that could mean more power sharing in the future but with UKIP being the one in joint power.
I used that article as it was the first one to hand, there are plenty of other sources that back it up if you look.

Survey which alludes to this figure is conducted by Opnium who use a paid panel of 30,000 people to comment on questions.
We don't know the range of questions asked, the demographics of the panel or anything else except the headline text that was quoted "UKIP surges 4% ahead of the Liberal Democrats" so its pretty worthless as a story or to be used as a national statistic.
There isn't any evidence that UKIP are attracting lib dem voters more than likely it will be from the Tories. So come the next election Labour will gain the disillusioned Lib Dems and ukip will attract the same from the Tories.

5 Dec 2012

Quote by Stevie_and_Kitty
Survey which alludes to this figure is conducted by Opnium who use a paid panel of 30,000 people to comment on questions.

Yes I had a brief look at their web site as well. There are plenty of very large companies that use their services, so I would have thought their polls were worthwhile.

Quote by Stevie_and_Kitty
We don't know the range of questions asked, the demographics of the panel or anything else except the headline text that was quoted "UKIP surges 4% ahead of the Liberal Democrats" so its pretty worthless as a story or to be used as a national statistic.

How else then do you measure national statistics? They use a large section of the community and obviously ask the questions that they have been paid to do, and the results are forecast. Do other pollsters use different methods than this when attaining facts ?

Quote by Stevie_and_Kitty
There isn't any evidence that UKIP are attracting lib dem voters more than likely it will be from the Tories. So come the next election Labour will gain the disillusioned Lib Dems and ukip will attract the same from the Tories.

5 Dec 2012

Quote by starlightcouple

Survey which alludes to this figure is conducted by Opnium who use a paid panel of 30,000 people to comment on questions.

Yes I had a brief look at their web site as well. There are plenty of very large companies that use their services, so I would have thought their polls were worthwhile.

Quote by Stevie_and_Kitty
We don't know the range of questions asked, the demographics of the panel or anything else except the headline text that was quoted "UKIP surges 4% ahead of the Liberal Democrats" so its pretty worthless as a story or to be used as a national statistic.

Quote by Stevie_and_Kitty
There isn't any evidence that UKIP are attracting lib dem voters more than likely it will be from the Tories. So come the next election Labour will gain the disillusioned Lib Dems and ukip will attract the same from the Tories.

I think you really believe that. No point pointing you to polls then as it is rather obvious you doubt their abilities, even though huge companies use them all the time. As you have probably not looked at their web site, have a look and like me you might learn a thing or two as to how they obtain their research. I was rather amazed and the insight is invaluable.

As an aside, how do you make the judgement that UKIP is not taking votes away from the Lib Dems when the last two by elections say the complete opposite. In fact the facts are there for all to see. The Lib Dems LOST yes lost their deposits in Rotherham and Croydon, and 'Nick Clegg’s party came a humiliating eighth, reviving memories of the 1990 Bootle by-election in which David Owen’s SDP came seventh behind the Monster Raving Loony candidate'.
So where did those Lib Dems votes go then? Certainly not to the Tories so the evidence IS there.:thumbup:
The lib dems have socialist policies...why would they vote for UKIP???? I would have thought the lib dems vote is going to Labour and the disaffected tory voters are going to UKIP. this is nothing more than protest voting at present. Liberal Democracy is a spent force in UK politics and they really need to re-invent themselves if they are to be of any real opposition. Just like New Labour did.
I have read about Opinium prior to this thread and have also looked at their credentials in detail. Polls which pay pannellists for their time and effort can influence the result depending on the paymasters agenda. and it doesn't say 30,000 were used in this poll. it could have been only a 100.

5 Dec 2012

Can't believe this thread is still going on.................
Let's look at history.
Successive governments for 40 years have wanted us to stay in Europe. Within these Governments have been some pretty seasoned politicians and very intelligent advisors. Why have neither Labour or Conservatives recommended that we get out of Europe - ever?
Roll on to 2011 / 2012 and the recession continues to bite whilst the complacent Brits simply expect that the two car family, TV in every room and foreign holiday lifestyle is a right and not a privilige/reward for hard work. As times get tougher history tells us that Nationalist policies always become more popular and today we have the common enemies of:
Europe - stealing all our money and enforcing laws that we don't want
Eastern Europeans - stealing all our jobs (sic)
Refugees (now called asylum seekers) - stealing all our welfare benefit.
Arise UKIP and a promise to deal with Europe and the immigration problem. Quel surprise!!
I imagine that the more intelligent of the population will see this one trick pony for exactly what it is - All hype and no substance.
PS - Why on earth would LIB/DEMS go to the Tories?? Crazy thought. The reality is that disaffected liberals have gone to labour and UKIP has attracted the more hard core conservatives who have historically been anti European. No liberal or socialist minded person would go anywhere near either the Conservatives or UKIP.
PPS - I find myself in the peculiar predicament of knowing that by nature I am very right wing conservative, bordering on Republican but finding the immigration stance of the Conservative right wing and UKIP quite ridiculous.

6 Dec 2012

Well surely ANYTHING has to be better than voting for these smug bastards?

What with everything so many people are going through just before Xmas, and this Autumn statement capping the poorest on benefits for three years, does it look like they are part of the austerity package?
This has got to be one of the worst pictures I have seen. Three Tory privately educated Eaton toffs, finding something to laugh about whilst dishing out austerity measures to the poor. Maybe they have all just had a glimpse at their bank account balances. :twisted:

6 Dec 2012

Actually star, what they were laughing at was a bungling Ed (I've got no) Balls who got himself tongue tied when responding to the Chancellor's statement and actually agreed with the chancellor on one of the key aspects which they disagreed about. The camera then cut back in to the opposition front bench and Ed Miliband was rolling his eyes looking too non plussed at the gaff made by Balls with Harriet Harman shaking her head and looking down at the floor!
It was reckoned to be one of the worst replies to an Autumn Statement ever from the Opposition benches.
Balls certainly lived up to his name by making an absolute balls of it :lol2:
BTW, did Danny Alexander, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, also go to Eaton dunno

6 Dec 2012

Quote by GnV
Actually star, what they were laughing at was a bungling Ed (I've got no) Balls who got himself tongue tied when responding to the Chancellor's statement and actually agreed with the chancellor on one of the key aspects which they disagreed about. The camera then cut back in to the opposition front bench and Ed Miliband was rolling his eyes looking too non plussed at the gaff made by Balls with Harriet Harman shaking her head and looking down at the floor!
It was reckoned to be one of the worst replies to an Autumn Statement ever from the Opposition benches.
Balls certainly lived up to his name by making an absolute balls of it :lol2:
BTW, did the Chief Secretary to the Treasury also go to Eaton

yea but biggest pointer...was Nick Clegg shaking his head....for 75% of Osbournes speech. Seems the government doesn't want a mansion tax, and has cut the highest rate of tax but then hits those on benifits....and thats not just those not working, it includes those taking very low paid jobs, just to work, and the hanicapped and disabled. We all know we have to tighten the belt, but lets have some contribution from the top tier as well, instead of constantly kicking those at the bottom.

6 Dec 2012

To be honest dean, Clegg has lost the plot big time and is panicking about where his party is going.
I think he can see the writing on the wall and is doing everything in his power to encourage Cameron to dump him and move him to his preferred place in the European Commission before the LibDems totally implode.
I think we can safely say the honeymoon is over and he is scrabbling for the hand rail to the gravy train which will take him away from having to answer for his actions.

6 Dec 2012

Quote by GnV
To be honest dean, Clegg has lost the plot big time and is panicking about where his party is going.

Heading head first towards disaster and their voters heading towards UKIP.

Quote by GnV
I think he can see the writing on the wall and is doing everything in his power to encourage Cameron to dump him and move him to his preferred place in the European Commission before the LibDems totally implode.

I think the Lib Dems already have GnV. They have lied to their electorate and gone against their very fundamentals to get into bed with Cameron, their voters will not let his party forget that in 2015 or even sooner.

Quote by GnV
I think we can safely say the honeymoon is over and he is scrabbling for the hand rail to the gravy train which will take him away from having to answer for his actions.

And Cameron?

6 Dec 2012

Quote by GnV
Actually star, what they were laughing at was a bungling Ed (I've got no) Balls who got himself tongue tied when responding to the Chancellor's statement and actually agreed with the chancellor on one of the key aspects which they disagreed about. The camera then cut back in to the opposition front bench and Ed Miliband was rolling his eyes looking too non plussed at the gaff made by Balls with Harriet Harman shaking her head and looking down at the floor!
It was reckoned to be one of the worst replies to an Autumn Statement ever from the Opposition benches.
Balls certainly lived up to his name by making an absolute balls of it :lol2:

I am aware what they were laughing at, but for millions yesterday they had nothing to laugh about even Balls cocking up. I am sure there are many poor people who if told the funniest of jokes yesterday (as they were trying to get the pennies together for that days meal on the table),would not have laughed. What have the poorest got to laugh about?

Quote by GnV
BTW, did Danny Alexander, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, also go to Eaton

No never went to Eaton GnV but went to the very nice St Anne's College, Oxford. Still a place where the state educated kids go I suppose? Yeah right. Make your own mind up as to the Uni.

6 Dec 2012

Quote by star
And Cameron?

Haha, you might ask.
No changes to the House of Lords until Cameron takes his seat perhaps dunno

6 Dec 2012

Unless you fancy a revolution - nothing is going to change in this country any time soon.
I think that arguing about which political party is going to make life better is a touch delusional because our lives are in our own hands. We have been mollycoddled and pandered for so long that the population is paralysed by complacency and an all encompassing feel bad factor.
If you want more of how your life is now, keep doing what you are doing now. If you want some changes - make your own changes and don't expect any government to do you any favours - because they won't.

6 Dec 2012

Quote by Too Hot
Unless you fancy a revolution - nothing is going to change in this country any time soon.
I think that arguing about which political party is going to make life better is a touch delusional because our lives are in our own hands. We have been mollycoddled and pandered for so long that the population is paralysed by complacency and an all encompassing feel bad factor.
If you want more of how your life is now, keep doing what you are doing now. If you want some changes - make your own changes and don't expect any government to do you any favours - because they won't.

Well we all know that Too Hot, as they are self serving and hypocrites. They impose laws and restrictions on the general public, and those rules do not apply to them.
After many years of voting one way or the other way I am now convinced they are all liars and thieves. The one that I thought would change things big time was a very young and dynamic it seemed at the time Tony Bliar. I had voted Tory for years and Thatcher was a brilliant PM, but it kinda went downhill after they got rid of her. So I decided to vote for Bliar as he was young and not the usual old Labour Union hot head kind of leader. How wrong was I to use my vote that way.
I admit I voted for Cameron last time out, but to be honest my Tory MP around here is a brilliant MP so more voted for them than Cameron himself. But Cameron did seem like a kind of nice guy, a good decent family man, but through no fault of his own the election ended up being a coalition which has obviously meant he has had to tread carefully. Cameron himself is not a bad guy but his party have lost the plot.
I shall never again vote for either of the two main political parties, and whilst I know that a UKIP vote is probably a wasted vote on so many levels, but at least their policies are what I believe in and my own conscience will say I did the right thing.

6 Dec 2012

Quote by starlightcouple
but at least their policies are what I believe in and my own conscience will say I did the right thing.

:thumbup:
And that is the most honest reason to vote!!
none of this tactical shit, vote for what you believe in!

6 Dec 2012

Quote by starlightcouple
I admit I voted for Cameron last time out, but to be honest my Tory MP around here is a brilliant MP so more voted for them than Cameron himself. But Cameron did seem like a kind of nice guy, a good decent family man, but through no fault of his own the election ended up being a coalition which has obviously meant he has had to tread carefully. Cameron himself is not a bad guy but his party have lost the plot.

I'd just like to pick up on this point if I may Star? These days it has become normal for people to vote (or not vote as the case may be) for their local MP based upon their opinion of the party leadership. I voted Labour in the last election because the local MP, Ben Bradshaw, has been involved with so many things at a local level that I agree with. I wanted him to continue to represent me, but my view of Brown at the time however couldn't have been more at odds.
On a similar note, I once met Danny Alexander in person and he came across as a guy that was genuinely interested in me and he did solve the problem I was having at the time. Would I vote for him now? I think I probably would if I lived in his constituency, even though that could be construed as a vote for Clegg.

6 Dec 2012

Hilary Benn my local MP Trev. Based on his couldn't really say as I could really support him personally and certainly couldn't vote through him indirectly for Gordon Brown either last election. Most displeasing as a natural life-long Labour voter though initial support for Blair as a long needed chance to put the Tories out that I so despised soon turned to disgust, Labour lost my vote with him very quickly, and Hilary sure ain't his father.
Lib-Dem candidate, though a wasted vote in this constituency anyways despite being second most often with Tories third as my only real alternative of the three main parties was a uni lecturer living in leafy suburbia getting out towards Otley, North Leeds. WTF does he know about life in the inner city sink estates that form Leeds central? No activism here that I'm aware of anyways.
My vote went to the independent Martin Bland standing as the We Beat The Scum One-Nil party. Only one among 'em said anything I could really support! lol

6 Dec 2012

If you are unfortunate enough to live in a "safe" seat area as I do, it is pretty pointless voting really. I would never have voted labour but round these parts they would vote in a chimpanzee if it was wearing a red rosette so I gave up long ago. In fact, I think I only ever voted once in my life and because of this voting nonsense in a safe seat I am a conscientious objector to even being on the electoral register so never will pass my pointless vote ever again.
Voting reform to include PR "may" see me back on the electoral register, but I can't see it happening.

6 Dec 2012

Quote by Too Hot
If you are unfortunate enough to live in a "safe" seat area as I do, it is pretty pointless voting really. I would never have voted labour but round these parts they would vote in a chimpanzee if it was wearing a red rosette so I gave up long ago. In fact, I think I only ever voted once in my life and because of this voting nonsense in a safe seat I am a conscientious objector to even being on the electoral register so never will pass my pointless vote ever again.
Voting reform to include PR "may" see me back on the electoral register, but I can't see it happening.

Too Hot,
sadly lived in safe Torylands around the country, where even one of their local activists once commented about all they having to do is stick a blue rosette on a pig and it would win.............. with no pun on the 'trough' that is Westminster pre-expenses scandal intended either.

6 Dec 2012

Quote by Too Hot
If you are unfortunate enough to live in a "safe" seat area as I do, it is pretty pointless voting really. I would never have voted labour but round these parts they would vote in a chimpanzee if it was wearing a red rosette so I gave up long ago. In fact, I think I only ever voted once in my life and because of this voting nonsense in a safe seat I am a conscientious objector to even being on the electoral register so never will pass my pointless vote ever again.
Voting reform to include PR "may" see me back on the electoral register, but I can't see it happening.

Same most places really isn't it Too Hot. We make a pretence at representative democracy and we do I guess but the cleaving of Tory / Labour heartland depending on local economic conditions and demographics means little chance of effective change as far as our small voice being heard goes, unless everyone else in the main decides to follow suit and just not turn up imagining history as a guide means yet landslide for the Labour / Tory candidate. It's wrong that real influence re: balance of power lies only with the small number of marginal constituencies that swing elections, everyone else might not as well have played.
Lib Dems fucked their chance at reform here, completely blew it. When the tide was already turning against them as far as popular support for them as a whole was waining re: 'the great betrayal' why risk their one shot with their flagship policy. It was bound to be impacted on by a general antipathy towards them in spite of the merits of the case in itself. Blown it, there'll not be another referendum in my lifetime I reckon now. Tory and Labour alike did everything in their power to resist reform in the first place, first past the post very much works for them to the exclusion of all others but now the people have spoken they'll be even more resistant to further opportunities to strengthen the hand of minority parties at their expense, they've been handed the perfect excuse. Stupid, Clegg got suckered. His party will be rid of him come next election results for that alone. He's consigned them to long decades in the political wilderness all over again after decades of hard work had just about get them out from there.

6 Dec 2012

Perhaps the most accurate assessment of UKIP I've heard ...... starts at approx. 14 minutes

P.S. get in quick there's a new one replacing it on Friday

7 Dec 2012

I do genuinely feel for Nick Clegg..... as he fell on the sword due to the stupidity of the general public and peoples basic lack of understanding of a "joint" government.
Cries of "betrayal" at the Liberal Democrats about things like student fees completely ignored the fact that the Lib Dems were not in control. Anything from this point forward was a result of negotiation, and the best they could hope for were some cabinet positions and an ability to "temper" the tory cuts and Austerity measures with sweeteners )in the case of the students, it was the increased scholarship places).
I dont like a lot of what the government is doing at the moment (the job losses at Remploy are shocking timing), but the opposition is not putting forward any viable alternatives at the moment, and whenever pushed they refuse to come forward with their own figures for recovery.
If you want me to take you seriously, UKIP - Give me figures, give me viable policies (as well as the reasons for them) and how you intend to fund them. Also, state how you would change if Scotland / Wales split... as that is looking a distinct (and disasterous) possibility sad

7 Dec 2012

Quote by kiwi
....and whenever pushed they refuse to come forward with their own figures for recovery.

That's because they don't have any :lol2:

7 Dec 2012

Morning GnV! Good to see you last night! smile

Yup, it's frustrating the way Labour are playing it. In a sense it's wise not to make promises about how they'd tackle the problem with what results, the times are too uncertain and many factors outside Govt / national control impacting on the best laid plans, but even so, they have no credibility saying they'd handle things better without any substance to support their claim. They're being proved correct that austerity measures and cuts alone aren't gonna solve bugger all if the economy flatlines or shrinks, even trying to maintain spending as a certain proportion of GDP is effectively a cut with negative growth and a shrinking pot. Must do something to stimulate growth, only way is to spend, invest in public infrastructure perhaps that will trickle down to contracts and job creation for the industries required to deliver it.

7 Dec 2012

Yes, good to have seen you too in chat neil.
To be fair to Labour, those of us old enough to remember Bliar's meteoric rise to political fortune will recall that he did so too without ever disclosing what their policies would be but simply on the basis of 'trust me, I've got a gap in my teeth and hey, I'm a nice sort of guy'. And it worked.
Now, did it work because the Tories then were imploding or because of Bliar's natural charm? Who is to say.
I think I might be right in saying that Cameron took a similar stance in the lead up to the last election. This now seems to be the way.
And who can blame them? The LibDems are finding this to their cost in regard to the Student Loan Fees debacle. Had they been more circumspect about declaring the detail in their policies, they may have avoided the problems they suffered but a lesson too late, me thinks.

7 Dec 2012

Good point about the charm offensives gnv.
In both cases the established governments were imploding and things were going wrong for the country. Is it any wonder that there was a large swing in the opposite direction when a charismatic leader says 'trust me, I'll sort it out' ?
Although I am an armchair fan of politics I don't know the ins and outs enough to argue the whys what's and maybes, but I do understand human nature. People wanted change, and that's exactly what we got.

7 Dec 2012

In a selling context, people buy from people.
Bliar could sell coal to Newcastle but Brown was the sort of salesman you definitely wouldn't buy a used car from which is why Labour resisted all calls to hold a GE after Bliar fell on his sword.

7 Dec 2012

I have never supported the two main parties but I would like to mention what I saw during the last labour government within the area I live.
There are three main Secondary school within a three mile radius of where I live which I looked at back in 2001 for my eldest son. All schools were Build between 1917 – 1956 when I saw them on their open days I looked around and the decor was awful plaster paint falling away from ceiling and walls, cracked windows etc. They just felt old and unloved and uncared for.
In 2007 when I looked at them again for my next children all were being totally rebuild to make state-of-the-art learning environments. They looked modern loads of natural light and completely reformed.
Hospitals within a 5 mile radars some of the best teaching hospitals around built in the 1800’s looked the same. Money has been spent and it shows.
In the past these places have had bits of money spent on them to put plasters on the wounds but it wasn’t until the last 10 years ago that it showed that anyone really cared about these places and whom used them.
While I can’t support either of the main parties as I believe politics within them is more about appoint blame I will say it is ok for a conservative to say we left the books in good order. When there isn’t any sign of investment in looking after the structure of what we need. Labour did however spend some of it in places of need.
Now we are fighting to save one of those hospitals that have just had that money spent because of cut back it has been ring marked to close.
Where is the sense in that?
If that isn't a waste of tax payers money what is?
That hospital has been open since the 1800's falling down and now revamped to close.
Politics gone barmy in my view.
Can anyone come up with a common sense reason why this might be?
As I am really struggling to understand it.
Conservatives would blame Labour and labour would blame the conservatives, no doubt but what would common sense say?
While politics seems to be the appoint blame culture it is I can’t see a way forward with the two main parties, you only have to watch the parliament channel to watch the bickering that goes on there between adults is laughable.
I personally believe most people are mid way thinkers more or less. Generally we are humane towards those that really need some support also most of us know we have to make a contribution within society to be part of it. I think the whole system could work together if the focus is the country and what is the best way forward together. I would scrap different parties and put all the heads together listening together and learning together to move forward only then I believe we would find the center ground.
How we achieve this I haven’t yet completely thought out, what I do believe is the person we elect to represent us in government should not be made to toe a party line but to be transparent and open about his views and let the voters make the choice if that is who we want to represent us in government.
How we would decide how we manage the cabinet posts I am still thinking about. But there must be an answer somewhere. I just think then we might have a better choice about who really governs us.
I would also like to see more national referendums

7 Dec 2012

I know the hospital you are talking about Minx but will not mention it as that would give your location away I believe.
But yes I saw that it had all the staff singing at some point when it opened and now after a very short space of time it looks like closing. There have been many hospitals that have closed over the last twenty years and plenty of A and E departments closing in certain hospitals as well. Currently my elderly Father has been put into Queen Elizabeth in Woolwich, and whilst a nice hospital, it is hugely overcrowded and the A and E department has apparently taken on two other local hospitals A and E patients as the likes of Queen Mary's in Sidcup's A and E has closed.
No sense at all Minx and yes Tories will blame Labour for the financial mess we are in, and the past Labour Government will blame the previous Tory party. But the last Labour Government with Bliar and Brown at the helm were in power for 12 years I think, and failed to recognise the biggest financial disaster in British history, with the banks going bust, and the debt accumulated by people themselves which have now put this country into serious financial trouble with over a pounds worth of debt, and rising daily.
They are all the same but the Tory toffs are worse I think as the top people in that party have not done a days proper work in their lives, after leaving Eton straight into politics with the Tory party.
It is a disgrace that with an ever increasing population ( for whatever that reason may be ),the local amenities are shrinking. How can this country cope with 70 million people in it, and probably closer to 100 million people in 50 years time. Of course Minx money has been invested in schools and hospitals, but to the detriment of some that have had to close as well remember.