Yes it is official the USA approve disprespect to National Flags
This is what Hillary Clinton the outgoing Secretary of State who may soon be running for the position of President (ess ?) of the United States.
The Nationalits have this week voted to limit the number of days the Nations flag can be flown over city hall.
Clinton says this is a small minority of people who try to stir up passions or rioting is UNACCEPTABLE and must be reputiated by everyone no matter how strongly someone feels.
So it is ok for people to burn American flags, something the US has in the past with dealt with by the use of imprisonment and violence.
Now I am not condoning the riots, I have always believed that Northern Ireland should be part of Ireland and not Britain, but democracy at this time dictates that it is a part of the United Kingdom and therefore should be flying the Union Jack, though out of respect for the other half of it's population I believe it would be nice if they actually flew both flags on the building (everyday of the week).
Who the hell is Clinton to say that it is ok to disrespect the Union Jack, how would she feel if we said that the Stars n Stripes could only be flown on the US Embassy in London on certain days of the week ?
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USA approve disprespect to National Flags
Quote by MidsCouple24
Yes it is official the USA approve disprespect to National Flags
This is what Hillary Clinton the outgoing Secretary of State who may soon be running for the position of President (ess ?) of the United States.
The Nationalits have this week voted to limit the number of days the Nations flag can be flown over city hall.
Clinton says this is a small minority of people who try to stir up passions or rioting is UNACCEPTABLE and must be reputiated by everyone no matter how strongly someone feels.
So it is ok for people to burn American flags, something the US has in the past with dealt with by the use of imprisonment and violence.
Now I am not condoning the riots, I have always believed that Northern Ireland should be part of Ireland and not Britain, but democracy at this time dictates that it is a part of the United Kingdom and therefore should be flying the Union Jack, though out of respect for the other half of it's population I believe it would be nice if they actually flew both flags on the building (everyday of the week).
Who the hell is Clinton to say that it is ok to disrespect the Union Jack, how would she feel if we said that the Stars n Stripes could only be flown on the US Embassy in London on certain days of the week ?
So you approve of the violence? The vote was actually to bring the the city hall into line with Stormont and other government buildings in Northern Ireland to fly the flag only on designated days.
I did say I did not support the violence, but her statement implies that we should just accept without questions what is or is not done with our flag, this from a woman whose husband while President totally supported raising funds for the IRA in the US and allowing terrorists to actively recruit in the US.
It is not surprising given the history of Northern Ireland that feelings would run high at this move above all other rules regarding flag flying in the province. I am not saying that it is wrong for the flag to be flown on certain days but I am saying that it could have been handled better and that Clinton has no right to tell us about our flags when they take the action they do over what people do with the Stars n Stripes in that this was people with high feelings, the US Government itself has inflicted/imposed violence and imprisonment for the "rights of thier flag"
It was only stopped and dealt with after 9/11 when we were asked to assist in the US fight against terrorism worldwide and we pointed out that we could not do that as long as the US supported Irish terrorists, the very next day action was taken to stop IRA fundraising 40 years to late in my opinion.
I have always supported the goals of the IRA and the Irish people, but not the methods or the violence, I believe they have achieved much more since the fight was taken into the democratic process instead of the gun.
It is not surprising given the history of Northern Ireland that feelings would run high at this move above all other rules regarding flag flying in the province. I am not saying that it is wrong for the flag to be flown on certain days but I am saying that it could have been handled better and that Clinton has no right to tell us about our flags when they take the action they do over what people do with the Stars n Stripes in that this was people with high feelings, the US Government itself has inflicted/imposed violence and imprisonment for the "rights of thier flag"
It was only stopped and dealt with after 9/11 when we were asked to assist in the US fight against terrorism worldwide and we pointed out that we could not do that as long as the US supported Irish terrorists, the very next day action was taken to stop IRA fundraising 40 years to late in my opinion.
I have always supported the goals of the IRA and the Irish people, but not the methods or the violence, I believe they have achieved much more since the fight was taken into the democratic process instead of the gun.
Quote by MidsCouple24
Yes it is official the USA approve disprespect to National Flags
This is what Hillary Clinton the outgoing Secretary of State who may soon be running for the position of President (ess ?) of the United States.
The Nationalits have this week voted to limit the number of days the Nations flag can be flown over city hall.
Clinton says this is a small minority of people who try to stir up passions or rioting is UNACCEPTABLE and must be reputiated by everyone no matter how strongly someone feels.
So it is ok for people to burn American flags, something the US has in the past with dealt with by the use of imprisonment and violence.
Now I am not condoning the riots, I have always believed that Northern Ireland should be part of Ireland and not Britain, but democracy at this time dictates that it is a part of the United Kingdom and therefore should be flying the Union Jack, though out of respect for the other half of it's population I believe it would be nice if they actually flew both flags on the building (everyday of the week).
Who the hell is Clinton to say that it is ok to disrespect the Union Jack, how would she feel if we said that the Stars n Stripes could only be flown on the US Embassy in London on certain days of the week ?
Have you experienced the divide between Catholic and Protestants, have you had to witness friends suddenly removed from your life?
The Northern Irish want to remain British, purely because of the benefit.
Please don't post in the Forum about matters that your not fully informed about.
Paddy
I did spend 3 years in the province back in the early 70s at the height of the troubles, was wounded there, had my eldest daughter born in the Altnagelvin hospital in Londonderry, was stationed in Ebrington Barracks on the Waterside, served in the Turf Lodge and Falls Road areas of Belfast and at Long Kesh, so to answer your question, Yea I have experienced the loss of friends there, the views of both the Catholic and Protestant citizens of the province and the views of the paramilitaries on both sides.
And to save anyone asking, I am a Protestant.
I said I believe that Northern Ireland should be united with the rest of Ireland, I do not know how that can happen without upsetting the British citizens that live there, however they themselves decided a long time ago that this would happen, the Protestant and majority population have always stated they would respect the vote, right now that vote is to remain part of the United Kingdom but the time will come when the Protestant population is no longer the majority and the vote will swing towards a united Ireland. When that happens I will sing you the song I sang the day the ceasefire was announced ....... Fool if you think it's over.
I have always respected both sides, I have an immense respect for the Protestant population who have stood by thier love of HM the Queen and Britain during adversity those on the UK mainland will never fully understand, I have been jealous of the loyalty they show to the United Kingdom that those on the mainland could only dream of but never show.
And to save anyone asking, I am a Protestant.
I said I believe that Northern Ireland should be united with the rest of Ireland, I do not know how that can happen without upsetting the British citizens that live there, however they themselves decided a long time ago that this would happen, the Protestant and majority population have always stated they would respect the vote, right now that vote is to remain part of the United Kingdom but the time will come when the Protestant population is no longer the majority and the vote will swing towards a united Ireland. When that happens I will sing you the song I sang the day the ceasefire was announced ....... Fool if you think it's over.
I have always respected both sides, I have an immense respect for the Protestant population who have stood by thier love of HM the Queen and Britain during adversity those on the UK mainland will never fully understand, I have been jealous of the loyalty they show to the United Kingdom that those on the mainland could only dream of but never show.
Quote by MidsCouple24
I did spend 3 years in the province back in the early 70s at the height of the troubles, was wounded there, had my eldest daughter born in the Altnagelvin hospital in Londonderry, was stationed in Ebrington Barracks on the Waterside, served in the Turf Lodge and Falls Road areas of Belfast and at Long Kesh, so to answer your question, Yea I have experienced the loss of friends there, the views of both the Catholic and Protestant citizens of the province and the views of the paramilitaries on both sides.
And to save anyone asking, I am a Protestant.
You was a soldier there, hardly the same as living amongst the people is it Mids? Times are a changing but NI is a complex issue and could reignite in a moment. If you was a soldier at the height of the troubles, I am sure you was as a British soldier hated with a passion by the Catholics there en mass. How then can you possibly have a balanced view of the province?
NI in my opinion will never merge back into one Ireland.
And you think when we stopped and searched Protestants or arrested UVF or Red Hand Commando members they showed us love and affection ?
On the day my daughter was born a Catholic family who lived "a stones throw" from our home walked 2 miles around the barricaded quarters area to the entrance and gave my wife a silver bracelet for the baby, Catholic women braved abuse when we patrolled thier areas to give us tea or a can of beer, something that was very common in Protestant areas but without the abuse from the neighbours for the well wisher, a catholic worker brought us a morning paper and bottle of milk every day when we for two weeks we lived in the hills guarding other soldiers working on a rebro site, yes we were more popular with the Protestant populace but we also met many many kind and considerate Catholics.
The Peace movement was made up with supporters from both sides of the divide, to label all Protestants supporters of the British Army is wrong and to label all Catholics haters of the British is equally wrong.
I think the very fact that, as an ex soldier and Protestant I support a United Ireland shows that I can have a balanced view of the situation there, respecting the rights of those who want to remain British and understanding why the want that but at the same time understanding why the Catholic population want the provice to become part of the rest of the island that is Ireland.
I think it is the population of Northern Ireland that cannot have a balanced view, born a Catholic or Protestant a certain view will be taught from an early age, to go against the views of your family, friends, neighbours all telling you that to believe anything else is wrong and dangerous is difficult to stand up to.
As I said, I don't have a solution, I don't think there is one, one side of the population will always be unhappy with the status of the province.
But I will say this, think of terrorists in NI you think of the IRA, but should the status quo be reversed you will re-think terrorism in the form of the UVF, Red Hand Commandos and other Protestant terrorist groups who up to now have not had to unleash thier capabilities to the extent the IRA did. (did as in what they did, not what they had to do)
On the day my daughter was born a Catholic family who lived "a stones throw" from our home walked 2 miles around the barricaded quarters area to the entrance and gave my wife a silver bracelet for the baby, Catholic women braved abuse when we patrolled thier areas to give us tea or a can of beer, something that was very common in Protestant areas but without the abuse from the neighbours for the well wisher, a catholic worker brought us a morning paper and bottle of milk every day when we for two weeks we lived in the hills guarding other soldiers working on a rebro site, yes we were more popular with the Protestant populace but we also met many many kind and considerate Catholics.
The Peace movement was made up with supporters from both sides of the divide, to label all Protestants supporters of the British Army is wrong and to label all Catholics haters of the British is equally wrong.
I think the very fact that, as an ex soldier and Protestant I support a United Ireland shows that I can have a balanced view of the situation there, respecting the rights of those who want to remain British and understanding why the want that but at the same time understanding why the Catholic population want the provice to become part of the rest of the island that is Ireland.
I think it is the population of Northern Ireland that cannot have a balanced view, born a Catholic or Protestant a certain view will be taught from an early age, to go against the views of your family, friends, neighbours all telling you that to believe anything else is wrong and dangerous is difficult to stand up to.
As I said, I don't have a solution, I don't think there is one, one side of the population will always be unhappy with the status of the province.
But I will say this, think of terrorists in NI you think of the IRA, but should the status quo be reversed you will re-think terrorism in the form of the UVF, Red Hand Commandos and other Protestant terrorist groups who up to now have not had to unleash thier capabilities to the extent the IRA did. (did as in what they did, not what they had to do)
Sex God
Quote by MidsCouple24
Yes it is official the USA approve disprespect to National Flags
This is what Hillary Clinton the outgoing Secretary of State who may soon be running for the position of President (ess ?) of the United States.
I may not be as well informed as usual this week, but as far as I can see by a quick search Clinton has said no such nonsense.
Quote by MidsCouple24
Clinton says this is a small minority of people who try to stir up passions or rioting is UNACCEPTABLE and must be reputiated by everyone no matter how strongly someone feels.
Quite right. Or are you saying that violence is the answer?
Quote by MidsCouple24
Now I am not condoning the riots, I have always believed that Northern Ireland should be part of Ireland and not Britain,
I don't. I believe that the residents of Northern Ireland should be able to determine their own future. Independence for Ireland in 1921 was only a partial solution, agreed by politicians and approved by the Crown. In those days there was no such thing as a referendum, and so the man on the street had no say. I am not hypocritical enough to say we must defend the Falkland Islands who have voted to remain a BOT, but give away a constituent nation of the united kingdom without determining that is what the people want. Perhaps it is well overdue?
Quote by MidsCouple24
but democracy at this time dictates that it is a part of the United Kingdom and therefore should be flying the Union Jack,
Democracy should never dictate.
Quote by MidsCouple24
though out of respect for the other half of it's population I believe it would be nice if they actually flew both flags on the building (everyday of the week).
I believe that the argument one way or another is immaterial to those of us that reside in the mainland UK. This particular building is only coming into line with policies for other government buildings that have been extant for sometime. As for flying both flags I see no reason for it. However I suppose precedent is already set in Scotland where government buildings fly the St Andrews flag except on certain days. Given that the tricolour was never the official flag of Northern Ireland perhaps they should fly the banner of ulster instead?
Quote by MidsCouple24
Who the hell is Clinton to say that it is ok to disrespect the Union Jack,
Once again I am unable to find any quotes from Mrs Clinton to support this statement.
Quote by MidsCouple24
how would she feel if we said that the Stars n Stripes could only be flown on the US Embassy in London on certain days of the week ?
once again, I cant find any evidence that she has said when flags can and cant be flown. However to answer your question she would probably say it's none of our business what her country does on its own soil.
Quote by Trevaunance
Yes it is official the USA approve disprespect to National Flags
This is what Hillary Clinton the outgoing Secretary of State who may soon be running for the position of President (ess ?) of the United States.
I may not be as well informed as usual this week, but as far as I can see by a quick search Clinton has said no such nonsense.
Quote by MidsCouple24
Clinton says this is a small minority of people who try to stir up passions or rioting is UNACCEPTABLE and must be reputiated by everyone no matter how strongly someone feels.
I watched her say it on the BBC news, later the same coverage was shown again but with a lot of what she said edited out, perhaps after taking advice and requesting it or perhaps the BBC deciding to edit much of what she said, you are correct in quoting what she said in later reports but the earliest report was more comprehensive.
Quite right. Or are you saying that violence is the answer?
see above. I agree with what she said about violence but not about peoples right to disagree with the decision.
Quote by MidsCouple24
Now I am not condoning the riots, I have always believed that Northern Ireland should be part of Ireland and not Britain,
I don't. I believe that the residents of Northern Ireland should be able to determine their own future. Independence for Ireland in 1921 was only a partial solution, agreed by politicians and approved by the Crown. In those days there was no such thing as a referendum, and so the man on the street had no say. I am not hypocritical enough to say we must defend the Falkland Islands who have voted to remain a BOT, but give away a constituent nation of the united kingdom without determining that is what the people want. Perhaps it is well overdue?
Yes I agree and when I say I believe that Northern Ireland should be part of a whole Ireland it is because I believe (and Catholic birth rates v Protestant birth rates in the province confirm) that one day the majority of the population will vote to be part of Ireland and not the United Kingdom, but no change until then.
Quote by MidsCouple24
but democracy at this time dictates that it is a part of the United Kingdom and therefore should be flying the Union Jack,
Democracy should never dictate.
ok bad choice of words on my part
Quote by MidsCouple24
though out of respect for the other half of it's population I believe it would be nice if they actually flew both flags on the building (everyday of the week).
I believe that the argument one way or another is immaterial to those of us that reside in the mainland UK. This particular building is only coming into line with policies for other government buildings that have been extant for sometime. As for flying both flags I see no reason for it. However I suppose precedent is already set in Scotland where government buildings fly the St Andrews flag except on certain days. Given that the tricolour was never the official flag of Northern Ireland perhaps they should fly the banner of ulster instead?
Quote by MidsCouple24
Who the hell is Clinton to say that it is ok to disrespect the Union Jack,
Once again I am unable to find any quotes from Mrs Clinton to support this statement.
Quote by MidsCouple24
how would she feel if we said that the Stars n Stripes could only be flown on the US Embassy in London on certain days of the week ?
once again, I cant find any evidence that she has said when flags can and cant be flown. However to answer your question she would probably say it's none of our business what her country does on its own soil.
and that is why I say it is none of her business what this country does on it's own soil
Sex God
Quote by MidsCouple24
Yes it is official the USA approve disprespect to National Flags
This is what Hillary Clinton the outgoing Secretary of State who may soon be running for the position of President (ess ?) of the United States.
I may not be as well informed as usual this week, but as far as I can see by a quick search Clinton has said no such nonsense.
Quote by MidsCouple24
Clinton says this is a small minority of people who try to stir up passions or rioting is UNACCEPTABLE and must be reputiated by everyone no matter how strongly someone feels.
I watched her say it on the BBC news, later the same coverage was shown again but with a lot of what she said edited out, perhaps after taking advice and requesting it or perhaps the BBC deciding to edit much of what she said, you are correct in quoting what she said in later reports but the earliest report was more comprehensive.
Ive got too much time on my hands at the moment, so I decided to try and find some evidence that Clinton says anything other than condemnation about burning of flags. You are quite right, the BBC doesn't seem to have any evidence of it. neither does sky, itv or channel 4. i even looked on cnn and fox as well as some australian news channels. I then decided to look at the news in Ireland and looked at RTE and IBI. Once again there is no evidence of it.
Given that clinton is a key player in the bid to make defacing or burning the US flag a criminal offence do you not think that at some level the press would pick up on the hypocrisy of her openly stating that the US supports the same actions against other nations flags?
I'm afraid I can't see any newshound worth his salt passing up on what would be a massive news story.
Quote by Trevaunance
Quite right. Or are you saying that violence is the answer?
Quote by MidsCouple24
see above. I agree with what she said about violence but not about peoples right to disagree with the decision.
As far as I have been able to tell she has condemned violence and told people that the way to settle their differences is through peaceful negotiation. She hasn't said that people can't disagree with decisions.
Quote by MidsCouple24
and that is why I say it is none of her business what this country does on it's own soil
And once again I haven't seen any evidence that she has told anyone what to do. She seems to have said several times in different places that peaceful negotiation and dialogue are the way forward, not violence.
Sex God
Quote by MidsCouple24
still don't like the bitch though
Now that is something we can agree on
Quote by starlightcouple
I did spend 3 years in the province back in the early 70s at the height of the troubles, was wounded there, had my eldest daughter born in the Altnagelvin hospital in Londonderry, was stationed in Ebrington Barracks on the Waterside, served in the Turf Lodge and Falls Road areas of Belfast and at Long Kesh, so to answer your question, Yea I have experienced the loss of friends there, the views of both the Catholic and Protestant citizens of the province and the views of the paramilitaries on both sides.
And to save anyone asking, I am a Protestant.
You was a soldier there, hardly the same as living amongst the people is it Mids? Times are a changing but NI is a complex issue and could reignite in a moment. If you was a soldier at the height of the troubles, I am sure you was as a British soldier hated with a passion by the Catholics there en mass. How then can you possibly have a balanced view of the province?
NI in my opinion will never merge back into one Ireland.
:upset:
Star a great post.
You'll remember the UDR then Mids!
A part time police force that worked and colluded with the RUC and British Army that was sectarian in itself proves alot- then they were disbanded!
I was born in Coventry and am a English " Catholic" I'd never normally state my prefences about my indentity in the FORUM but in this occassion I feel I have to!
I,to this day pay taxes to HRM as an ex-pat (dual taxation - nature of my job) and I'm proud to do so! - my taxes assist in the British Forces jobs.
Please be mindfull moving forward, think before you post, the knock on effect of your replies could upset fellow OP's.
Paddy
Nobody wants a return!
xx
Quote by Paddy
Star a great post.
You'll remember the UDR then Mids!
A part time police force that worked and colluded with the RUC and British Army that was sectarian in itself proves alot- then they were disbanded!
They didn't "collude" with RUC or the British Army.
They were part of the British Army and both we there to support the RUC. Support and collude imply different things.
They weren't disbanded as a result of the sectarianism - they were disbanded due to options for change and amalgamated with another infantry unit.
Quote by HimandHer
Star a great post.
You'll remember the UDR then Mids!
A part time police force that worked and colluded with the RUC and British Army that was sectarian in itself proves alot- then they were disbanded!
They didn't "collude" with RUC or the British Army.
They were part of the British Army and both we there to support the RUC. Support and collude imply different things.
They weren't disbanded as a result of the sectarianism - they were disbanded due to options for change and amalgamated with another infantry unit.
Doctors differ patients die!
I'm not getting into a debacle here, this is a Swinging Site.
Northern Ireland's situation is unique and will remain so.
I choose not to post numerous links in relation to the UDR in my prior post, some that would be damning!
I respect your reply.
Paddy
Quote by MidsCouple24
Maybe I misheard her in the earlier report, still don't like the bitch though
Sometimes Mids you make yourself look rather silly. Maybe making sure you get your reports correct before lambasting people may be a jolly good idea. :thumbup: How the feck can you have ' misheard ' her on something of such importance?
As an aside, she may well be a bitch as you lovingly put it, but I rather think she has done a damn fine job since she has been in office. On what basis do you call her a bitch? Has she done something that you did not agree on, or just don't like her for the way she looks/acts?
Am genuinely interested.
Quote by starlightcouple
Maybe I misheard her in the earlier report, still don't like the bitch though
Sometimes Mids you make yourself look rather silly. Maybe making sure you get your reports correct before lambasting people may be a jolly good idea. :thumbup: How the feck can you have ' misheard ' her on something of such importance?
Well my attempt to lighten the thread didn't work, the relevant word there was "maybe" I still believe that what I said earlier, that later broadcasts of her full conversation were watered down and the full content not aired for whatever reason.
As an aside, she may well be a bitch as you lovingly put it, but I rather think she has done a damn fine job since she has been in office. On what basis do you call her a bitch? Has she done something that you did not agree on, or just don't like her for the way she looks/acts?
For the same reason you have an opinion of her, because that is my right to do so as much as it is yours to believe she is not. It is simply because she formerly supported the IRA during her term as the First Lady.
Am genuinely interested.
You and Paddy earlier accused me of being unable to give an opinion because I was a soldier serving in the province, Paddy going as far as to say I could not have an opinion about something I know nothing about before he knew anything about my time spent there, I responded to that with details of why I believed I could make a valid comment, you have chosen not to respond to this, can I ask what your experience of Northern Ireland is ? and the same question to Paddy ? and do you both still think what you said to be correct ?
I remember when Sir Alex Fergusson and was asked if he would be interested in buying striker Robbie Keane who at the time was scoring goals as easy as buying sweets.
He was told that the asking price for the player was £5million pounds, which was considered very cheap based on his current performance and future potential, Sir Alex reply was that he already had 5 top stikers in his squad and was not in the market for another, pressed on the matter he said that whilst he was undoubtedly talented and very much on form he would not be making a bid, because of the make up of his squad it would not be in the interests of Manchester United to buy another stiker so he would not buy him even if the price was half a million.
Headlines the next day said "Sir Alex Fergusson would not pay for striker Robbie Keane"
That headline totally changed what was actually said, it made it appear that Sir Alex did not rate the striker and did not think him worth a fraction of the asking price.
A few changes in what people say can have a totally different impact on what is actually being said.
He was told that the asking price for the player was £5million pounds, which was considered very cheap based on his current performance and future potential, Sir Alex reply was that he already had 5 top stikers in his squad and was not in the market for another, pressed on the matter he said that whilst he was undoubtedly talented and very much on form he would not be making a bid, because of the make up of his squad it would not be in the interests of Manchester United to buy another stiker so he would not buy him even if the price was half a million.
Headlines the next day said "Sir Alex Fergusson would not pay for striker Robbie Keane"
That headline totally changed what was actually said, it made it appear that Sir Alex did not rate the striker and did not think him worth a fraction of the asking price.
A few changes in what people say can have a totally different impact on what is actually being said.
Quote by MidsCouple24
You and Paddy earlier accused me of being unable to give an opinion because I was a soldier serving in the province, Paddy going as far as to say I could not have an opinion about something I know nothing about before he knew anything about my time spent there, I responded to that with details of why I believed I could make a valid comment, you have chosen not to respond to this, can I ask what your experience of Northern Ireland is ? and the same question to Paddy ? and do you both still think what you said to be correct ?
Without pulling your comment apart I shall answer as best I can.
I never accused you of anything in this thread show me where I have, I stated that as a serving soldier in very troubled NI, you would have been hated by the vast majority of Catholics there. Security was soooo tight there for the soldiers how you possibly would have come into contact on a daily basis with Catholics baffles me. I have a cousin who did three tours in NI at the heart of the troubles and he has told me things about his times there. He was ' ordered ' his words not mine, to have no contact with civilians as there could be serious security issues if they did. Remember as I am sure you do, that to be a soldier out there was literally a matter of life and death sometimes. Snipers on the street were rife, every soldier was suspicious of anything that moved and yet you have made it seem less serious than it was. I am certainly not disbelieving your story that you gave earlier about your time out there, but as a matter of interest can you tell me the years of when you served out there.
My experience of NI is nil as I have never been there, but someone very close to me has and has lost over 30 friends whilst serving out there from the years 1971 until 1983. The times when trouble was at it's worst, when soldiers did not ever leave their barracks and certainly did not ever fratanise with civilians there. So you are sticking to the story you gave with regards to a Catholic woman walking two miles around the barracks to give your Wife a bracelet, when at the heart of the troubles a civilian would have never got within 500 yards of the entrance to the barracks and am sure that people could see why that would be if they knew about the provinces history. Just find that a bit hard to understand but maybe Paddy could tell me if that was common practice at that time.
Oh and yes I still believe 100% what I said was correct, cannot speak for Paddy though obviously.
Quote by starlightcouple
You and Paddy earlier accused me of being unable to give an opinion because I was a soldier serving in the province, Paddy going as far as to say I could not have an opinion about something I know nothing about before he knew anything about my time spent there, I responded to that with details of why I believed I could make a valid comment, you have chosen not to respond to this, can I ask what your experience of Northern Ireland is ? and the same question to Paddy ? and do you both still think what you said to be correct ?
Without pulling your comment apart I shall answer as best I can.
I never accused you of anything in this thread show me where I have,
You was a soldier there, hardly the same as living amongst the people is it Mids? Times are a changing but NI is a complex issue and could reignite in a moment. If you was a soldier at the height of the troubles, I am sure you was as a British soldier hated with a passion by the Catholics there en mass. How then can you possibly have a balanced view of the province?
I stated that as a serving soldier in very troubled NI, you would have been hated by the vast majority of Catholics there. Security was soooo tight there for the soldiers how you possibly would have come into contact on a daily basis with Catholics baffles me. I have a cousin who did three tours in NI at the heart of the troubles and he has told me things about his times there. He was ' ordered ' his words not mine, to have no contact with civilians as there could be serious security issues if they did. Remember as I am sure you do, that to be a soldier out there was literally a matter of life and death sometimes. Snipers on the street were rife, every soldier was suspicious of anything that moved and yet you have made it seem less serious than it was.
Suspicion, awareness and care can be performed without isolation, yes, you did not answer your front door until you had ascertained who was behind it, yes you watched for suspicious movements or packages when shopping, yes you had your eyes open all the time, checked under your car for bombs before opening the door and much more, but you still had to live, you still had to win the hearts and minds of the people you were there to protect. I remember it took me nearly two years to relax after leaving the province and packages left alone at shops in Germany scared me and brought about a response the Germans found OTT but when you serve in the province being watchfull is second nature and relaxing does take time, I remember that at the time you did not feel stressed, relaxing afterwards you realised just how tense you had been and I wondered if the population of the province realised just how tense they were and what it would be like to live in an area of pretty high safety instead of one of high tension.
It was often different when working in places like Strabane and for soldiers serving short 4 and 6 months tours to those on long tours when your family is with you, the first night my wife spent in the province a bomb went off some 8 miles away as the crow flies and she shot out of bed and was unable to sleep again that night, by the time we left the province 3 years later a bomb went off 200 yards from our home (the garage in Heron Way) and she did not bat an eyelid simply saying to a newly arrived neighbour that freaked out "it's ok babes it's just a bomb".
I am certainly not disbelieving your story that you gave earlier about your time out there, but as a matter of interest can you tell me the years of when you served out there.
My experience of NI is nil as I have never been there, but someone very close to me has and has lost over 30 friends whilst serving out there from the years 1971 until 1983. The times when trouble was at it's worst, when soldiers did not ever leave their barracks and certainly did not ever fratanise with civilians there. So you are sticking to the story you gave with regards to a Catholic woman walking two miles around the barracks to give your Wife a bracelet, when at the heart of the troubles a civilian would have never got within 500 yards of the entrance to the barracks and am sure that people could see why that would be if they knew about the provinces history. Just find that a bit hard to understand but maybe Paddy could tell me if that was common practice at that time.
I lived at 10 Clooney Park West on the Waterside, Londonderry, if you google map this you will see that it is off the A2 a long road leading down to a circle with a small number of houses ringing it, No 10 backs onto Heron Way, the first 3 houses as you look down at the map from above were Officers quarters the first and largest being that of the Brigadier in charge of the 39th Infantry Brigade, the houses on the right going down the long road were civilian residencies, the houses surrounding the green circle at the bottom were soldiers army quarters. the whole street was surrounded by barbed wire fences and there was a sangar (concrete guard post with barrier at the entrance to Clooney Park with 2 armed guards in the Sangar controlling entry to the street and 2 further armed guards in the grounds of the Brigadiers home on roving patrol duties.
As you can see a one block of 3 number of houses are "a stone throw" from Heron way and were indeed supplied with removable shutters to prevent bricks (or worse) being thrown through the windows, No 10 where we lived was part of that block.
The ladies that brought my wife the silver bracelet lived in Heron Way just opposite our home.
Bearing in mind the barred wire fencing you can see that to access our front door the ladies had to walk down Heron Way onto Lapwing Way, Roulson Avenue and May St onto the A2 Limavady Rod to reach the guarded entrance to Clooney Park West, here they were searched by Guards from the Kings Regiment and after explaining the purpose of thier visit escorted to our front door, the distance was probably a lot more than 2 miles.
If you look to the left of Clooney Park you will see a large waste ground area running from St Columbus Drive to the River Foyle, this was the former Ebrington Barracks, some buildings still remain but most appear to have been demolished now.
Ebrington Barracks had 2 fine bars for the lads (and the RUC bar) the Signal Squadron had a bar and the touring Regiment had a bar (these in addition to the Sargeants and Officers Messes) during my time there the touring Regiment was The Kings Regiment (a fine bunch of lads very efficient and mostly recruited from Liverpool and Manchester) who were then replaced by the Coldstream Guards (no comment).
Any soldier that ever served on the Creggan, on HMS Ramehead (ship converted to Barracks) or in Ebrington Barracks (and there were thousands) knows that most of the Waterside is a GREEN area suitable for soldiers to walk unarmed in civilian clothes in groups of 3, but the Heron Way area was a BLACK area and soldiers were only allowed there on duty and armed.
My wife shared a ward at the Altnagelvin hospital with one protestant woman and 8 Catholic woman, she said all but one treated her like thier daughter, true she did have an armed guard in the corridor who was a qualified medic and was present whenever she recieved an injection of any form following early incidents when a nurse attempted to kill a soldier with a lethal injection and another occasion when a soldier was almost thrown over the staircase balconey in attempt to throw him to his death. but the Doctors and Nurses who cared for my wife were exempelary in thier care for her.
Each bar held weekly disco's over the weekends, these were very popular with the local girls from Londonderry and the local girls were very popular with the soldiers
.The fish and chip shop accross the road from the main entrance to Ebrington Barracks opened very late to accommodate the strange working hours of the soldiers stationed opposite though there was a sutlers burger bar within the barracks area and run by a lovely asian family but they left when the Kings Regiment departed and opened a new venue in Colchester, yes they loved the Kingos so much they followed them to the UK.
Shopping on the Waterside was ok but the local supermarket (Kelly's) was prone to bomb threats and sometimes had to close, the "bomb watcher" at the Library on the Limavady road would always watch your pram for you when you went into some of the smaller shops and carried the baby and the railway station car park was pretty safe if you were lucky enough to get a lift to the shops, the City Centre shops were however deemed too dangerous so you could not go accross the Craigavon Bridge to shop there. I remember walking down to Kelly's one day shortly after my wife gave birth, leaving some of my shopping at the library with the bomb watcher, but when got to Kelly's it had just been bombed so I went to the Station instead to get some train times for a neighbour and army wife who was from Belfast so she could go and visit her family, unfortunately the Station had also been bombed that day so I returned to the Library only to find that this too had just been hit by a proxy bomb so I had a pretty wasted trip and lost some shopping to boot.
Ebrington Barracks looks down on much of the City Centre of Londonderry and I remember spending many a Saturday afternoon sitting on the hill and watching accross the river Foyle taking bets on which building would blow up next or counting the shots being fired up on the hill that was the Creggan or down near the City Centre that was the Bogside.
I served in the province from 1971 to early 1974 besides doing a couple of short tours, at one time I was detached to 42 Commando in the New Lodge area of Belfast and in the Turf Lodge, as I said I also did a short spell at Long Kesh, and spent some of my favourite times in Strabane. In 1974 I was sent to Cyprus as President Makarious had been overthrown and there was some worry over the safety of the Sovereign Base Area and the British Civilians on the Island.
We were always encouraged to fratenize with the local population of Northern Ireland and made some good friends, yes mostly amongst the Protestant population but a sizeable number of Catholics too, the americans call this "winning hearts and minds" the British see it the same way, many soldiers serving in the Province came home with brides they met there, some settled in Northern Ireland after finishing thier service, this is provable fact and not hearsay. I failed to mention that the guy who dropped our milk and papers off every morning when we were guarding the building of a rebro site (rebroadcast site, antennae to boost radio coverage) was the passenger in a wagon driven by his colleague, who always muttered "fucking brits" as the goodies were handed over.
On the Waterside soldiers could go to local pubs providing there were 3 of them together, they were not permitted to go over the bridge into the city for recreation.
Of course soldiers were warned of "loose tongues" when talking to local civilians and the dangers of being enticed into dangerous situations but fratenizing was welcomed.
The time I spent serving in the Province was the best time of my career and I served in more dangerous areas than Northern Ireland with people who hated us more and in worse living conditions. I met some really lovely people on both sides of the divide.
Oh and yes I still believe 100% what I said was correct, cannot speak for Paddy though obviously.
Sex God
Quote by MidsCouple24
Lots!
Now that, for once, is an informative post :thumbup:
Sex God
Quote by starlightcouple
Cheers for that ' this is your life ' Mids, most informative.
I won't ask you a question anymore as I will have to sit down with a couple of cans and spend an hour reading it. :bounce:
:cheers: Might have to do the same.
Quote by starlightcouple
Cheers for that ' this is your life ' Mids, most informative.
I won't ask you a question anymore as I will have to sit down with a couple of cans and spend an hour reading it. :bounce:
But do you still believe I was lying about the "fratenization" the catholic women who gave us the bracelet and the thousands of Catholic people in Northern Ireland who whilst hating the fact that the British Army had to be there, accepted that it did provide them with protection where possible and treated us fairly often against the will of thier peers, that not every Catholic in the Province hates us even if they would prefer to be part of a United Ireland and that perhaps your cousin was either wrong, on a short tour and in an area where fratenization was not allowed or just glorifying the job he did with a little embelishment it is not unknown for soldiers to do this and we even see it on this site where profiles include "just back from Afghanistan or just going to Afghanistan" in a bid to curry favourable responses, because if so all I wrote was a waste of time
Sorry, just read the last line of your post where you say that YES you do still believe I could not have a balanced view of life in the province that I am lying about the level of interaction between troops deployed there and the Catholic population, I accept that but it does sadden me that you do not believe me or accept my reasoning for what I wrote about them, that you still believe the whole Catholic population hated us and not just a large part of it (in my estimate one third).
Sex God
Mids, your doing it again :doh: Nobody has called you a liar have they? could you show the evidence of your claim?
As far as I can see you have been asked by star how you can have had a balanced view, in the absence of anything to back it up, You then wrote a very informative and well written reply detailing why you believe you can have a balanced opinion.
The bit you are quoting namely: 'just read the last line of your post where you say that YES you do still believe I could not have a balanced view of life' predate your post, that means they were written before it not after.
So as I read it no one has called you a liar and no one has doubted your ability to have a balanced view since you told the thread where you can draw on real life first hand experience.
As far as I can see you have been asked by star how you can have had a balanced view, in the absence of anything to back it up, You then wrote a very informative and well written reply detailing why you believe you can have a balanced opinion.
The bit you are quoting namely: 'just read the last line of your post where you say that YES you do still believe I could not have a balanced view of life' predate your post, that means they were written before it not after.
So as I read it no one has called you a liar and no one has doubted your ability to have a balanced view since you told the thread where you can draw on real life first hand experience.
Your absolutely right, I read the last line of the post and saw it (wrongly) as a response to my explanation and for that I apologise profusely, I was confused by the copy and pastes but should have checked more, I rushed to put the answer in before I got told "I have already replied to you" my mistake sorry.
but I still await an answer to see if my explanation was enough to changed the minds of those in here who made the comments
as for being a liar, if someone tells me that what I said was wrong when it it about my own personal experience it could only mean they believe I was lying about my contact with the people I spoke of.
Being told not to say things I know nothing about demanded that I show what I based my statement on.
but I still await an answer to see if my explanation was enough to changed the minds of those in here who made the comments
as for being a liar, if someone tells me that what I said was wrong when it it about my own personal experience it could only mean they believe I was lying about my contact with the people I spoke of.Being told not to say things I know nothing about demanded that I show what I based my statement on.
