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Quote by Geordiecpl2001
OK, so WW2, if Britain had not declared war on Germany over Poland or arranged a peacedeal after Dunkirk, could we have co-existed with Germany ? Assuming Hitler didn't want a lump of the Empire.
And if we had co-existed with Nazi Germany would Germany have helped us in any war with Japan? IE helped fellow Europeans (were the British classed as Aryan by Hitler?) against Asians?
AH believed we fell within his ideal of the Arian race, our Jews would have been killed off but had we agreed peace terms after Dunkirk I believe we would have co-existed as long as we towed the Reich line in the same way he accepted Italy.
I think that as he was assisting Japan with some supplies and a lot of technology we would have had to end our war with them as part of any agreement we made.
We weren't the prize that France and Russia was, few natural resources at that time, divided by the Channel, with no real desire to own europe and without the rest of the world no threat to Germany especially a Germany that controlled all that they would have.

As the Japanese did not attack Pearl harbour until Dec 1941, we would not have been at war with them in 1939 or 1940, the dates I suggested that we may have made a pact with Germany. So if Hitler had the British Empire, not as allies as such, but "sleeping partners" for want of a better term, would he not have fought to preserve the British Empire colonies such as Burma from the Japanese who were hardly Aryans and had no real claim to any goodwill from Hitler.
So to go on with this flight of fancy, (nearly typed flight of fanny, where was my mind!) if Hitler did not become an ally of Japan, but Japan still launched its expansionist Pacific attacks, could we have seen the USA, Britain and Germany fighting on the same side against Japan? After all, the USA probably would not have got involved in a war in Europe if Britain was sidelined and Germany had already conqured France ect and was involved in attacking the USSR which was hardly a friend of the USA.
Yes, I admit to an over-active imagination !! But ain't it fun !
John
Well I go along with all that for sure
The trouble is that you are 'what if'ing' on the wrong scale.
What if the British mulberry had failed?
What if the shot Rommel was hit with had been 2 inches to one side?
What if ham and jam had never been sent?
What if Brecourt never happened?
Small scale events have a more significant effect than we ever consider. I'm sure that somewhere there was a Bombardier of the Royal Artillery that thought he could have aimed two foot to the left and killed Hitler twenty years previously and saved 50 million lives.
Have to agree, my scenario was one big IF, when France fell we had two real choices, make some form of pact with Germany or fight on, that if would have made a huge difference methinks, we know what did happen so the only IF is what would have happened IF we took the first choice. All that follows are questions that only history could have answered
Would the USA have entered the european war
Would Japan have invaded British controlled areas or would they have had to avoid us to keep Germany happy and the supplies coming
Would Japan have tried to make allies of us as they did with Germany
We will never know of course but conjecture is interesting
Quote by Geordiecpl2001
This one has to take us back to the "if's n but's" situation.
Morally speaking we have to believe the right side won.
The plan to murder every Jew, Gypsy, Mentaly disabled, Old person, Homosexual in the world is a very good argument for the moral stance. Who would have been next on the list ?
IF, AH had won, he would have been on the list above, his mental state was deteriorating quickly, he had many enemies within the German Nation, without him his henchman would have been on very shaky ground and probably deposed very easily.
His possible replacements were a little bit nicer, Dernitz who did suceed him for a very short time, Rommel was immensely popular especially with the Wermacht and it's Generals.
So, with a more caring leader, control of Europe, the Soviet Union, Scandanavia, support from South America and the United Kingdom (because to win we did prove he needed us to agree peace terms at the start) allies in Japan who would probably of controlled the far east, USA, Australia, India, Burma etc then it is possible the world could be a better place for many and hell for some.
The question is what would have happened if the USA had been forced to face Japan alone whilst Japan got massive German support instead of the small amount they did get and without having a base in Europe to take on Germany who would have been able to put their full military might against them instead of fighting on 4 fronts.

Got to take issue with one point Jed, where did you get knowledge of a plan of Hitler's to murder "old people"? The other groups are well documented as being victims of the Nazi, but never heard of old people outside of the groups mentioned being targeted by the Nazis.
John

This one took me a long time to research but I got there in the end.
from wiki
Action T4 was the name used after World War II for Nazi Germany's "Euthanasia programme" during which physicians killed thousands of people who were "judged incurably sick, by critical medical examination". The programme officially ran from September 1939 to August 1941, but it continued unofficially until the end of the Nazi regime in 1945.
During the official stage of Action T4, 70,273 people were killed, but the Nuremberg Trials found evidence that German and Austrian physicians continued the euthanization of patients after October 1941 and that about 275,000 people were killed under T4. More recent research based on files recovered after 1990 gives a figure of at least 200,000 physically or mentally handicapped people killed by medication, starvation, or in the gas chambers between 1939 and 1945.
The name T4 was an abbreviation of "Tiergartenstraße 4", the address of a villa in the Berlin borough of Tiergarten which was the headquarters of the Gemeinnützige Stiftung für Heil- und Anstaltspflege, bearing the euphemistic name literally translating into English as Charitable Foundation for Curative and Institutional Care. This body operated under the direction of Reichsleiter Philipp Bouhler, the head of Hitler's private chancellery, and Dr. Karl Brandt, Hitler's personal physician. This villa no longer exists, but a plaque set in the pavement on Tiergartenstraße marks its location.
In October 1939, Hitler signed a back-dated "euthanasia decree" to 1 September 1939 which authorised Bouhler and Brandt to carry out the programme of euthanasia.
The Action T4 plan was carried out, so many mentally and physically handicapped people were murdered and on the list to be murdered that they didnt manage to get round to killing many of the old and infirm before the end of the regime but they were on the list for extermination as the paper proved. The only thing that saved them was Germanys inabiiity to kill people any quicker than they did.
Quote by MidsCouple24
This one has to take us back to the "if's n but's" situation.
Morally speaking we have to believe the right side won.
The plan to murder every Jew, Gypsy, Mentaly disabled, Old person, Homosexual in the world is a very good argument for the moral stance. Who would have been next on the list ?
IF, AH had won, he would have been on the list above, his mental state was deteriorating quickly, he had many enemies within the German Nation, without him his henchman would have been on very shaky ground and probably deposed very easily.
His possible replacements were a little bit nicer, Dernitz who did suceed him for a very short time, Rommel was immensely popular especially with the Wermacht and it's Generals.
So, with a more caring leader, control of Europe, the Soviet Union, Scandanavia, support from South America and the United Kingdom (because to win we did prove he needed us to agree peace terms at the start) allies in Japan who would probably of controlled the far east, USA, Australia, India, Burma etc then it is possible the world could be a better place for many and hell for some.
The question is what would have happened if the USA had been forced to face Japan alone whilst Japan got massive German support instead of the small amount they did get and without having a base in Europe to take on Germany who would have been able to put their full military might against them instead of fighting on 4 fronts.

Got to take issue with one point Jed, where did you get knowledge of a plan of Hitler's to murder "old people"? The other groups are well documented as being victims of the Nazi, but never heard of old people outside of the groups mentioned being targeted by the Nazis.
John

This one took me a long time to research but I got there in the end.
from wiki
Action T4 was the name used after World War II for Nazi Germany's "Euthanasia programme" during which physicians killed thousands of people who were "judged incurably sick, by critical medical examination". The programme officially ran from September 1939 to August 1941, but it continued unofficially until the end of the Nazi regime in 1945.
During the official stage of Action T4, 70,273 people were killed, but the Nuremberg Trials found evidence that German and Austrian physicians continued the euthanization of patients after October 1941 and that about 275,000 people were killed under T4. More recent research based on files recovered after 1990 gives a figure of at least 200,000 physically or mentally handicapped people killed by medication, starvation, or in the gas chambers between 1939 and 1945.
The name T4 was an abbreviation of "Tiergartenstraße 4", the address of a villa in the Berlin borough of Tiergarten which was the headquarters of the Gemeinnützige Stiftung für Heil- und Anstaltspflege, bearing the euphemistic name literally translating into English as Charitable Foundation for Curative and Institutional Care. This body operated under the direction of Reichsleiter Philipp Bouhler, the head of Hitler's private chancellery, and Dr. Karl Brandt, Hitler's personal physician. This villa no longer exists, but a plaque set in the pavement on Tiergartenstraße marks its location.
In October 1939, Hitler signed a back-dated "euthanasia decree" to 1 September 1939 which authorised Bouhler and Brandt to carry out the programme of euthanasia.
The Action T4 plan was carried out, so many mentally and physically handicapped people were murdered and on the list to be murdered that they didnt manage to get round to killing many of the old and infirm before the end of the regime but they were on the list for extermination as the paper proved. The only thing that saved them was Germanys inabiiity to kill people any quicker than they did.
Sorry, your quote above only proves that the Nazi's killed people "judged incurably sick, by critical medical examination". or, "200,000 physically or mentally handicapped people killed by medication, starvation". This is not disputed. Nowhere in the quote does it mention killing people because of their age.
John
Quote by Geordiecpl2001
This one has to take us back to the "if's n but's" situation.
Morally speaking we have to believe the right side won.
The plan to murder every Jew, Gypsy, Mentaly disabled, Old person, Homosexual in the world is a very good argument for the moral stance. Who would have been next on the list ?
IF, AH had won, he would have been on the list above, his mental state was deteriorating quickly, he had many enemies within the German Nation, without him his henchman would have been on very shaky ground and probably deposed very easily.
His possible replacements were a little bit nicer, Dernitz who did suceed him for a very short time, Rommel was immensely popular especially with the Wermacht and it's Generals.
So, with a more caring leader, control of Europe, the Soviet Union, Scandanavia, support from South America and the United Kingdom (because to win we did prove he needed us to agree peace terms at the start) allies in Japan who would probably of controlled the far east, USA, Australia, India, Burma etc then it is possible the world could be a better place for many and hell for some.
The question is what would have happened if the USA had been forced to face Japan alone whilst Japan got massive German support instead of the small amount they did get and without having a base in Europe to take on Germany who would have been able to put their full military might against them instead of fighting on 4 fronts.

Got to take issue with one point Jed, where did you get knowledge of a plan of Hitler's to murder "old people"? The other groups are well documented as being victims of the Nazi, but never heard of old people outside of the groups mentioned being targeted by the Nazis.
John

This one took me a long time to research but I got there in the end.
from wiki
Action T4 was the name used after World War II for Nazi Germany's "Euthanasia programme" during which physicians killed thousands of people who were "judged incurably sick, by critical medical examination". The programme officially ran from September 1939 to August 1941, but it continued unofficially until the end of the Nazi regime in 1945.
During the official stage of Action T4, 70,273 people were killed, but the Nuremberg Trials found evidence that German and Austrian physicians continued the euthanization of patients after October 1941 and that about 275,000 people were killed under T4. More recent research based on files recovered after 1990 gives a figure of at least 200,000 physically or mentally handicapped people killed by medication, starvation, or in the gas chambers between 1939 and 1945.
The name T4 was an abbreviation of "Tiergartenstraße 4", the address of a villa in the Berlin borough of Tiergarten which was the headquarters of the Gemeinnützige Stiftung für Heil- und Anstaltspflege, bearing the euphemistic name literally translating into English as Charitable Foundation for Curative and Institutional Care. This body operated under the direction of Reichsleiter Philipp Bouhler, the head of Hitler's private chancellery, and Dr. Karl Brandt, Hitler's personal physician. This villa no longer exists, but a plaque set in the pavement on Tiergartenstraße marks its location.
In October 1939, Hitler signed a back-dated "euthanasia decree" to 1 September 1939 which authorised Bouhler and Brandt to carry out the programme of euthanasia.
The Action T4 plan was carried out, so many mentally and physically handicapped people were murdered and on the list to be murdered that they didnt manage to get round to killing many of the old and infirm before the end of the regime but they were on the list for extermination as the paper proved. The only thing that saved them was Germanys inabiiity to kill people any quicker than they did.
Sorry, your quote above only proves that the Nazi's killed people "judged incurably sick, by critical medical examination". or, "200,000 physically or mentally handicapped people killed by medication, starvation". This is not disputed. Nowhere in the quote does it mention killing people because of their age.
John
The basis for this was Hitlers belief in Darwinism, he believed that the state owed a responsibility to it's people to cull the weak in order for the rest to survive and prosper. You will need to read Mein Kampf and Darwins Origin of the Species for a full explanation of Darwinism, Darwin was hypothersising and theorising in a comparison with the animal kingdom, AH thought it worthy of implementation to improve the Reich.
Following that theory Hitler believed prioritised this action, the Jews whom he believed leeched on society, the mentally disabled and physically disabled, the gypsies who like the jews leeched on society without contributing anything to the whole, Gays who he believed were an afront to society and finally to the old who he simply believed were a burdent to society, this process can be seen clearly with the extermination of the jews when the first to be selected for "special treatment" were the older jews and those who fell into other categories of darwinism, ie mentally disabled or physically disabled or older jews were exterminated first.
If you read Action T4 you will see how this was to work and in places like Langeleben, Konnigslutter many other towns in that area, OAP's homes and homes for mentally and physically disabled children were set up and people "stored" for removal to death camps when they were able to take them, fortunately for them the large numbers of jews taking up the spaces meant a lot of those policies never came to fruition, bear in mind his was a long term plan for the Reich which he expected to last a thousand years and more.
Apart from the older Jews murdered before younger ones I am not saying the policy was carried out in any significant numbers but I am saying it was his intention and what he believed the way forward for the German Nation, he was occupying half the world and knew that old people were a burden that he could do without in the Countries he occupied.
Quote by MidsCouple24
This one has to take us back to the "if's n but's" situation.
Morally speaking we have to believe the right side won.
The plan to murder every Jew, Gypsy, Mentaly disabled, Old person, Homosexual in the world is a very good argument for the moral stance. Who would have been next on the list ?
IF, AH had won, he would have been on the list above, his mental state was deteriorating quickly, he had many enemies within the German Nation, without him his henchman would have been on very shaky ground and probably deposed very easily.
His possible replacements were a little bit nicer, Dernitz who did suceed him for a very short time, Rommel was immensely popular especially with the Wermacht and it's Generals.
So, with a more caring leader, control of Europe, the Soviet Union, Scandanavia, support from South America and the United Kingdom (because to win we did prove he needed us to agree peace terms at the start) allies in Japan who would probably of controlled the far east, USA, Australia, India, Burma etc then it is possible the world could be a better place for many and hell for some.
The question is what would have happened if the USA had been forced to face Japan alone whilst Japan got massive German support instead of the small amount they did get and without having a base in Europe to take on Germany who would have been able to put their full military might against them instead of fighting on 4 fronts.

Got to take issue with one point Jed, where did you get knowledge of a plan of Hitler's to murder "old people"? The other groups are well documented as being victims of the Nazi, but never heard of old people outside of the groups mentioned being targeted by the Nazis.
John

This one took me a long time to research but I got there in the end.
from wiki
Action T4 was the name used after World War II for Nazi Germany's "Euthanasia programme" during which physicians killed thousands of people who were "judged incurably sick, by critical medical examination". The programme officially ran from September 1939 to August 1941, but it continued unofficially until the end of the Nazi regime in 1945.
During the official stage of Action T4, 70,273 people were killed, but the Nuremberg Trials found evidence that German and Austrian physicians continued the euthanization of patients after October 1941 and that about 275,000 people were killed under T4. More recent research based on files recovered after 1990 gives a figure of at least 200,000 physically or mentally handicapped people killed by medication, starvation, or in the gas chambers between 1939 and 1945.
The name T4 was an abbreviation of "Tiergartenstraße 4", the address of a villa in the Berlin borough of Tiergarten which was the headquarters of the Gemeinnützige Stiftung für Heil- und Anstaltspflege, bearing the euphemistic name literally translating into English as Charitable Foundation for Curative and Institutional Care. This body operated under the direction of Reichsleiter Philipp Bouhler, the head of Hitler's private chancellery, and Dr. Karl Brandt, Hitler's personal physician. This villa no longer exists, but a plaque set in the pavement on Tiergartenstraße marks its location.
In October 1939, Hitler signed a back-dated "euthanasia decree" to 1 September 1939 which authorised Bouhler and Brandt to carry out the programme of euthanasia.
The Action T4 plan was carried out, so many mentally and physically handicapped people were murdered and on the list to be murdered that they didnt manage to get round to killing many of the old and infirm before the end of the regime but they were on the list for extermination as the paper proved. The only thing that saved them was Germanys inabiiity to kill people any quicker than they did.
Sorry, your quote above only proves that the Nazi's killed people "judged incurably sick, by critical medical examination". or, "200,000 physically or mentally handicapped people killed by medication, starvation". This is not disputed. Nowhere in the quote does it mention killing people because of their age.
John
The basis for this was Hitlers belief in Darwinism, he believed that the state owed a responsibility to it's people to cull the weak in order for the rest to survive and prosper. You will need to read Mein Kampf and Darwins Origin of the Species for a full explanation of Darwinism, Darwin was hypothersising and theorising in a comparison with the animal kingdom, AH thought it worthy of implementation to improve the Reich.
Following that theory Hitler believed prioritised this action, the Jews whom he believed leeched on society, the mentally disabled and physically disabled, the gypsies who like the jews leeched on society without contributing anything to the whole, Gays who he believed were an afront to society and finally to the old who he simply believed were a burdent to society, this process can be seen clearly with the extermination of the jews when the first to be selected for "special treatment" were the older jews and those who fell into other categories of darwinism, ie mentally disabled or physically disabled or older jews were exterminated first.
If you read Action T4 you will see how this was to work and in places like Langeleben, Konnigslutter many other towns in that area, OAP's homes and homes for mentally and physically disabled children were set up and people "stored" for removal to death camps when they were able to take them, fortunately for them the large numbers of jews taking up the spaces meant a lot of those policies never came to fruition, bear in mind his was a long term plan for the Reich which he expected to last a thousand years and more.
Apart from the older Jews murdered before younger ones I am not saying the policy was carried out in any significant numbers but "I am saying it was his intention" and what he believed the way forward for the German Nation, he was occupying half the world and knew that old people were a burden that he could do without in the Countries he occupied.

Don't know if Hitler had a belief in Darwinism or it was just some form of madness on his part that drove him to mass murder. I do agree with you about the catagories of people he wanted to totally wipe out. Except the old (I am not talking about specific groups here, just old people in general). I have never seen any other evidence of this theory, quote you "I am saying it was his intention", how do you know that? Can you cite any documents which show that intention?
John
Well yes, there is that book by the author Adolf Hitler called Mein Kampf in which he affirms his beliefs in Darwinism, then there is the book Darwin to Hitler by Benjamin Wiker.
There is this statement from the "Centre for Science and Culture"
Darwinism inspired the Nazis. Which, in fact, it did. In Mein Kampf, Hitler used Darwinian language to make his case for racial war against the Jews.
Darwinism as I have explained was simply an observation by Darwin on the pattern often found in animals and insects to cull the herd of the weak, old and infirm. He talked about how this might effect Human Beings if we adopted the same policy. Hitler believed this to be the way forward for the Reich and the World, it was even used as a defence by some in the Nurenberg trials at the end of the war.
Hitlers support for Darwinism, the Darwinian way of life, whatever you want to call it is well documented in legal court documents, Reich Documents, Statements from the SS heirarchy and Hitler himself in Mein Kampf.
The only reason you find this part of his anialation plan difficult to believe was because for the most part it was not carried out on the scale of the other murders and I do understand that but intent is still a crime and it was clearly his intent to use this part of his "Darwin" stratedgy for the removal of those he considered a burden. As I said the only recordable instances that did occur was it's use in deciding which Jews were put to the front of the queue for elimination when the queue got large, initially it was first come first served but as the camps filled the guards used a filter system and the old, sick, infirm, disabled were at the head of that queue as has been well documented by holocaust survivors.
I am surprised that you find it difficult to believe someone you know was going mad, was exterminating men, women and children in their millions just for their religious beliefs, just for being gypsies, just for being homosexual etc would have any qualms at eliminating the old folk.
Quote by MidsCouple24
Well yes, there is that book by the author Adolf Hitler called Mein Kampf in which he affirms his beliefs in Darwinism, then there is the book Darwin to Hitler by Benjamin Wiker.
There is this statement from the "Centre for Science and Culture"
Darwinism inspired the Nazis. Which, in fact, it did. In Mein Kampf, Hitler used Darwinian language to make his case for racial war against the Jews.
Darwinism as I have explained was simply an observation by Darwin on the pattern often found in animals and insects to cull the herd of the weak, old and infirm. He talked about how this might effect Human Beings if we adopted the same policy. Hitler believed this to be the way forward for the Reich and the World, it was even used as a defence by some in the Nurenberg trials at the end of the war.
Hitlers support for Darwinism, the Darwinian way of life, whatever you want to call it is well documented in legal court documents, Reich Documents, Statements from the SS heirarchy and Hitler himself in Mein Kampf.
The only reason you find this part of his anialation plan difficult to believe was because for the most part it was not carried out on the scale of the other murders and I do understand that but intent is still a crime and it was clearly his intent to use this part of his "Darwin" stratedgy for the removal of those he considered a burden. As I said the only recordable instances that did occur was it's use in deciding which Jews were put to the front of the queue for elimination when the queue got large, initially it was first come first served but as the camps filled the guards used a filter system and the old, sick, infirm, disabled were at the head of that queue as has been well documented by holocaust survivors.
I am surprised that you find it difficult to believe someone you know was going mad, was exterminating men, women and children in their millions just for their religious beliefs, just for being gypsies, just for being homosexual etc would have any qualms at eliminating the old folk.

Darwinism is not survival of the fittest. That is a very popular misconception. Darwinism is about evolution due to natural selection, the ability to change to ones surroundings. Those organisms that can change and adapt to survive go on to be the successor.
Hitler's genocidal policies had nothing to do with Darwinism at all. it was the work of a mad man, full stop!
I am not trying to change what Darwin said, Hitler did that, if you read Mein Kampf as I keep saying you will see that Hitler liked Darwins ideas so much he said he believed they should be incorporated for the whole of society he never was a great supporter of the welfare system. Hitler first liked the ideas Darwin put forward because of his fixation with history and race believing that Germany was destined to rule the world and right to do so because of their ancient history, his warped mind then started to see other ways darwins observations could change the world. He was not alone in his views, some red indian tribes disowned old people when they had no immediate family to care for them as did some south american and african tribes who and none of those had ever heard of Darwin. lol
Quote by MidsCouple24
some red indian tribes

PLEASE!!! Native American Indians!
See your point but being an old git I remember them labelled as I grew up and it has never been meant as a derogatory term so whilst I will bring myself up to date with the description I won't appologise for that mistake wink oh and I won't get offended if they call me white eyes or paleface lol
Quote by MidsCouple24
Well yes, there is that book by the author Adolf Hitler called Mein Kampf in which he affirms his beliefs in Darwinism, then there is the book Darwin to Hitler by Benjamin Wiker.
There is this statement from the "Centre for Science and Culture"
Darwinism inspired the Nazis. Which, in fact, it did. In Mein Kampf, Hitler used Darwinian language to make his case for racial war against the Jews.
Darwinism as I have explained was simply an observation by Darwin on the pattern often found in animals and insects to cull the herd of the weak, old and infirm. He talked about how this might effect Human Beings if we adopted the same policy. Hitler believed this to be the way forward for the Reich and the World, it was even used as a defence by some in the Nurenberg trials at the end of the war.
Hitlers support for Darwinism, the Darwinian way of life, whatever you want to call it is well documented in legal court documents, Reich Documents, Statements from the SS heirarchy and Hitler himself in Mein Kampf.
The only reason you find this part of his anialation plan difficult to believe was because for the most part it was not carried out on the scale of the other murders and I do understand that but intent is still a crime and it was clearly his intent to use this part of his "Darwin" stratedgy for the removal of those he considered a burden. As I said the only recordable instances that did occur was it's use in deciding which Jews were put to the front of the queue for elimination when the queue got large, initially it was first come first served but as the camps filled the guards used a filter system and the old, sick, infirm, disabled were at the head of that queue as has been well documented by holocaust survivors.
I am surprised that you find it difficult to believe someone you know was going mad, was exterminating men, women and children in their millions just for their religious beliefs, just for being gypsies, just for being homosexual etc would have any qualms at eliminating the old folk.

You have not cited any documents, or public speeches where Hitlers said in front of witnesses "I want to kill old people". I have not read Mein Kampf, but can you say where in that book (chapter and section please) he states "I will kill old people?" If so, at what age did people become old? If for arguements sake, he said 60 years old then your for the chop, then half the German High Command would be done for immediatly.
Also, can you imagine being German, your standing at a Nuremberg Rally, Hitler screams out about killing the Jews, people cheer and applaud as they did. Then Hitler screams, "after killing the Jews, we'll start killing the old people of every nation." Que a shuffling of feet in the audiance, them looking round thinking of their mam and dad at home.
Sorry Jed, you've really got to prove this one beyond the "Well Hitler indended to do this because he'd read a book by Darwin".
John
Quote by MidsCouple24
some red indian tribes

Quote by Rogue_Trader
PLEASE!!! Native American Indians!

Can't you say that either nowadays Rogue?
What happens then when we see and old cowboy and Indian film on the telly, do they bleep that bit out?
No I won't quote chapter and verse because I no longer have my copy of Mein Kampf and have no desire to buy another, you can choose not to agree with what I have said, you can choose to disbelieve what I say, you can even say it is not true, because that is your perogative as it is my pergotive to believe it.
I have put forward a greater argument for it being true than anyone has for it not being true, there are many references to the Nazi Party and Adolf Hitlers views of Darwinism availalbe via Google if you care to look including references to his book Mein Kampf.
The Nazi Party did not always shout about their plans for anyone, the jews, the mentally disabled, the infirm or the gypsies why do you think they would have shouted about plans to kill off the elderly, most of the plans were kept on a "need to know" basis just as our Government and many others treat their own plans for the future.
I made a statement I believe to be true through what I have read, I have no requirement to prove it just as those that say it is not true have no requirement to disprove it, if they want they can try, personally I don't think it important enough to waste my time on, it was a plan that never reached fruition therefore somewhat imaterial in the greater picture of what was done.
Quote by MidsCouple24
No I won't quote chapter and verse because I no longer have my copy of Mein Kampf and have no desire to buy another, you can choose not to agree with what I have said, you can choose to disbelieve what I say, you can even say it is not true, because that is your perogative as it is my pergotive to believe it.
I have put forward a greater argument for it being true than anyone has for it not being true, there are many references to the Nazi Party and Adolf Hitlers views of Darwinism availalbe via Google if you care to look including references to his book Mein Kampf.
The Nazi Party did not always shout about their plans for anyone, the jews, the mentally disabled, the infirm or the gypsies why do you think they would have shouted about plans to kill off the elderly, most of the plans were kept on a "need to know" basis just as our Government and many others treat their own plans for the future.
I made a statement I believe to be true through what I have read, I have no requirement to prove it just as those that say it is not true have no requirement to disprove it, if they want they can try, personally I don't think it important enough to waste my time on, it was a plan that never reached fruition therefore somewhat imaterial in the greater picture of what was done.

I'm afraid mids there is no proof to what Hitler believed as those close to him stated different things about what his beliefs where
it is obvious from what we know about his adolescence was that as he grew older he distanced his self from the catholic religion, after that no one would ever know as those close to him whilst he was in power can't agree
its all guess work I'm afraid with only bits of puzzle
Quote by Lizaleanrob
No I won't quote chapter and verse because I no longer have my copy of Mein Kampf and have no desire to buy another, you can choose not to agree with what I have said, you can choose to disbelieve what I say, you can even say it is not true, because that is your perogative as it is my pergotive to believe it.
I have put forward a greater argument for it being true than anyone has for it not being true, there are many references to the Nazi Party and Adolf Hitlers views of Darwinism availalbe via Google if you care to look including references to his book Mein Kampf.
The Nazi Party did not always shout about their plans for anyone, the jews, the mentally disabled, the infirm or the gypsies why do you think they would have shouted about plans to kill off the elderly, most of the plans were kept on a "need to know" basis just as our Government and many others treat their own plans for the future.
I made a statement I believe to be true through what I have read, I have no requirement to prove it just as those that say it is not true have no requirement to disprove it, if they want they can try, personally I don't think it important enough to waste my time on, it was a plan that never reached fruition therefore somewhat imaterial in the greater picture of what was done.

I'm afraid mids there is no proof to what Hitler believed as those close to him stated different things about what his beliefs where
it is obvious from what we know about his adolescence was that as he grew older he distanced his self from the catholic religion, after that no one would ever know as those close to him whilst he was in power can't agree
its all guess work I'm afraid with only bits of puzzle
Then why is it written in his book Mein Kampf (My Life) ?
Quote by MidsCouple24
No I won't quote chapter and verse because I no longer have my copy of Mein Kampf and have no desire to buy another, you can choose not to agree with what I have said, you can choose to disbelieve what I say, you can even say it is not true, because that is your perogative as it is my pergotive to believe it.
I have put forward a greater argument for it being true than anyone has for it not being true, there are many references to the Nazi Party and Adolf Hitlers views of Darwinism availalbe via Google if you care to look including references to his book Mein Kampf.
The Nazi Party did not always shout about their plans for anyone, the jews, the mentally disabled, the infirm or the gypsies why do you think they would have shouted about plans to kill off the elderly, most of the plans were kept on a "need to know" basis just as our Government and many others treat their own plans for the future.
I made a statement I believe to be true through what I have read, I have no requirement to prove it just as those that say it is not true have no requirement to disprove it, if they want they can try, personally I don't think it important enough to waste my time on, it was a plan that never reached fruition therefore somewhat imaterial in the greater picture of what was done.

I'm afraid mids there is no proof to what Hitler believed as those close to him stated different things about what his beliefs where
it is obvious from what we know about his adolescence was that as he grew older he distanced his self from the catholic religion, after that no one would ever know as those close to him whilst he was in power can't agree
its all guess work I'm afraid with only bits of puzzle
Then why is it written in his book Mein Kampf (My Life) ?
But his crude ideals of what is described as social Darwinism (the Aryan race, survival of the fittest etc ) does not make him a Darwinist dunno
Hitler had links to many things inc the occult,christianity,and what was then new world science you only have to look at the swastika's origins to see how diverse Hitler was
as it was and still is mainly used in Hinduism and Buddhism
I agree, his thoughts on Darwinism were just a small part of his way of thinking, I have never said anything different, this whole discussion is about one small aspect of the whole topic, the topic being WWII personally I think this bit is a quite insignificant part of that discussion because WWII stopped him in his tracks when it came down to all his beliefs, ideals and dreams for the Reich, I would much rather be discussing the things that did happen than what he might have done had he been able to contiune with is path.
Quote by MidsCouple24
No I won't quote chapter and verse because I no longer have my copy of Mein Kampf and have no desire to buy another, you can choose not to agree with what I have said, you can choose to disbelieve what I say, you can even say it is not true, because that is your perogative as it is my pergotive to believe it.
I have put forward a greater argument for it being true than anyone has for it not being true, there are many references to the Nazi Party and Adolf Hitlers views of Darwinism availalbe via Google if you care to look including references to his book Mein Kampf.
The Nazi Party did not always shout about their plans for anyone, the jews, the mentally disabled, the infirm or the gypsies why do you think they would have shouted about plans to kill off the elderly, most of the plans were kept on a "need to know" basis just as our Government and many others treat their own plans for the future.
I made a statement I believe to be true through what I have read, I have no requirement to prove it just as those that say it is not true have no requirement to disprove it, if they want they can try, personally I don't think it important enough to waste my time on, it was a plan that never reached fruition therefore somewhat imaterial in the greater picture of what was done.

I'm afraid mids there is no proof to what Hitler believed as those close to him stated different things about what his beliefs where
it is obvious from what we know about his adolescence was that as he grew older he distanced his self from the catholic religion, after that no one would ever know as those close to him whilst he was in power can't agree
its all guess work I'm afraid with only bits of puzzle
Then why is it written in his book Mein Kampf (My Life) ?
I think you'll find that Mein Kampf translates as My Struggle.
directly it translates to "My Fight" but the popular and accepted thinking is that it was his life, something he saw as a struggle, a fight and the reason he did what he did and believed what he believed. At the end of the day in this context it means all those things in just the same way as many words mean many different things when used in different contexts after all if it had just been his fight it might have been soley about his service in WWI in which he did fight and did struggle, it was published in 1925 with the second volume in 1926 whilst he was in prison, a struggle and perhaps a fight and also his life. It did tell the story of his life, struggles and fights to that day but he also talked about his dreams for the future. But again a thread about WWII is just becoming a discussion about one man albeit he did play a big roll in the whole thing it wasn't just about him.
Quote by MidsCouple24
I agree, his thoughts on Darwinism were just a small part of his way of thinking, I have never said anything different, this whole discussion is about one small aspect of the whole topic, the topic being WWII personally I think this bit is a quite insignificant part of that discussion because WWII stopped him in his tracks when it came down to all his beliefs, ideals and dreams for the Reich, I would much rather be discussing the things that did happen than what he might have done had he been able to contiune with is path.

but wasn't it you that went off on this tangent with your claims that Hitler planned to murder the old as he did the Jews, and then linked a belief to Darwinism as his reason for this dunno
Quote by MidsCouple24
directly it translates to "My Fight" but the popular and accepted thinking is that it was his life, something he saw as a struggle, a fight and the reason he did what he did and believed what he believed. At the end of the day in this context it means all those things in just the same way as many words mean many different things when used in different contexts after all if it had just been his fight it might have been soley about his service in WWI in which he did fight and did struggle, it was published in 1925 with the second volume in 1926 whilst he was in prison, a struggle and perhaps a fight and also his life. It did tell the story of his life, struggles and fights to that day but he also talked about his dreams for the future. But again a thread about WWII is just becoming a discussion about one man albeit he did play a big roll in the whole thing it wasn't just about him.

Seeing as how you love Wiki so much, this their explanation of the title of the book:
"Hitler originally wanted to call his forthcoming book Viereinhalb Jahre (des Kampfes) gegen Lüge, Dummheit und Feigheit, or Four and a Half Years (of Struggle) Against Lies, Stupidity and Cowardice. Max Amann, head of the Franz Eher Verlag and Hitler's publisher, is said to have suggested the much shorter "Mein Kampf or My Struggle"
The book may well be autobiographical in part but the title does not mean My Life ( Mein Leben) and I have seen no evidence that this is the " popular and accepted thinking" as you claim.
So the aecond world war was about if Hitler ever planned to kill off old people and what the title of his book actually meant, ok I accept all that and believe all that is correct and I am wrong, so for me the WWII subject is all done and dusted and really quite boring so I am going to find another more interesting subject to debate, have fun with this one.
Quote by MidsCouple24
So the aecond world war was about if Hitler ever planned to kill off old people and what the title of his book actually meant, ok I accept all that and believe all that is correct and I am wrong, so for me the WWII subject is all done and dusted and really quite boring so I am going to find another more interesting subject to debate, have fun with this one.

Get over yourself! As Rob said above, it was you that took the thread off topic.
Quote by MidsCouple24
So the aecond world war was about if Hitler ever planned to kill off old people and what the title of his book actually meant, ok I accept all that and believe all that is correct and I am wrong, so for me the WWII subject is all done and dusted and really quite boring so I am going to find another more interesting subject to debate, have fun with this one.

"It was you that started it" !!!
"No we didn't" !
"Yes you did, you invaded Poland" !!
Oh, just come over all Basil Faulty there.
John
Quote by Geordiecpl2001
"It was you that started it" !!!
"No we didn't" !
"Yes you did, you invaded Poland" !!
Oh, just come over all Basil Faulty there.
John

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