Yes she was being serious

... when the Remain campaigner told me today, with a perfectly straight face, that leaving Europe would plunge us back into our "traditional sexual repression", from which we have been liberated by the influence of the French, Italians, etc etc blah blah blah.

It seems the 'No sex please, we're British' stereotype is as alive and well as it's ever been and the rest of the world still thinks Mary Whitehouse was a representative cross-section of the British psyche. That's really just too funny to be offensive so I just nodded and said, "Yes, thank you for the enlightenment. It's certainly fortunate that we have a plentiful supply of storks here in the UK, otherwise we'd have gone extinct centuries ago."

For the record, I've been all around the world and as far as I can tell, with the possible exception of Ireland, no-one's anywhere near as sexy as us.

So there!

So Icey. are you in or out or are you still shaking it all about?

Quote by GnV
So Icey. are you in or out or are you still shaking it all about?

Some scaremongering on both sides, which is to be expected I suppose, but given that A) no-one gave any UK government permission to make us a colony of an aggressive foreign power that hates our culture but loves our money, and B) Russia didn't bomb us before the EU dreamed itself into existence and proclaimed itself our saviour, I think I'm possibly leaning towards the Up Yours Fritz camp.

And in case anyone's about to point it out, yes I know there was a referendum on the Common Market, but that was a purely economic cartel that has since transmogrified itself into a self-appointed superstate which no British political party has ever admitted in an election manifesto that it intended to submit to, so Parliament has exceeded its authority in that its members are elected to govern the country, not surrender that governance to someone else. In my view that makes our membership of the EU invalid in the first place and the referendum question should  be not whether we want to stay but whether we want to join. Personally I don't.

So, a vote to remain will effectively be a vote to (continue) join....

So tell me... when did the UK Parliament transmogrify into a democracy where the electorate expect the people it returns in elections to do their will (and whose will are they to do?)

The very definition of Democracy suggests otherwise... the people divest themselves of responsibility and hand it over to their elected representatives (who they may or may not have chosen themselves to be their representative) to govern in their name. Such could be argued to be the case in the case of EU Membership. The mere fact alone that it was not in their manifesto does not prevent a Government from reolving to do something (or not, as the case may be).

Quote by GnV
the people divest themselves of responsibility and hand it over to their elected representatives

Indeed we do, but that's not a "do whatever you like" agreement though. Those representatives are elected specifically to govern the country, not hand it over to someone else. Different governments run the country in different ways, and that's what we're asked to choose between, but changing the very identity of the country - in effect abolishing it as a country and making it part of someone else's made-up country, that wasn't part of the deal. No party ever admitted in an election campaign that it intended to do that.

If we choose to leave - and if the government respects that choice and takes us out - the first thing we need to do is establish a written constitution, because without it future governments can say "Where is it written that we can't surrender you to someone else's rule?"

Quote by GnV

So tell me... when did the UK Parliament transmogrify into a democracy...

Not yet, apparently, although it's closer to being democratic than the EU, which invented itself, is unelected, and answers to no-one.

There is indeed merit in a written Constitution for the United Kingdom but don't expect it any time soon...

I doubt there is the political will to do it and if it is managed anything like the Chilcot enquiry, I doubt it would ever be in my grand children’s lifetime, let alone my children's lifetime

However, I do enjoy living a Republic where there is a clearly defined written Constitution which stretches as far as defining the language of the Country and a Constitutional Court which can and will defy the will of Parliament to the benefit of it's citizens when a matter is declared as 'unconstitutional' thereby overturning legislation in a more defined way than the 'airy-fairy' suggestion of sovereignty which exists in the UK Parliamentary system of Governance.

But, you are of course right about the apparently unelected and unaccountable EU Commission and I can see why you say that except that it is for the elected Members of Member States to appoint Commissioners every 5 years and the President of the Commission is elected by a majority of the component Members of the European Parliament who themselves are elected representatives in the State which returned them in elections so, like it or lump it, there is transparency. 

Quote by GnV
There is indeed merit in a written Constitution for the United Kingdom but don't expect it any time soon...
I doubt there is the political will to do it and if it is managed anything like the Chilcot enquiry, I doubt it would ever be in my grand children’s lifetime, let alone my children's lifetime
However, I do enjoy living a Republic where there is a clearly defined written Constitution which stretches as far as defining the language of the Country and a Constitutional Court which can and will defy the will of Parliament to the benefit of it's citizens when a matter is declared as 'unconstitutional' thereby overturning legislation in a more defined way than the 'airy-fairy' suggestion of sovereignty which exists in the UK Parliamentary system of Governance.

But, you are of course right about the apparently unelected and unaccountable EU Commission and I can see why you say that except that it is for the elected Members of Member States to appoint Commissioners every 5 years and the President of the Commission is elected by a majority of the component Members of the European Parliament who themselves are elected representatives in the State which returned them in elections so, like it or lump it, there is transparency. 

All excellent points, and the transparency of which you speak does have at least the merit of allowing me to see very clearly why we need to leave.

Taking a slightly different view of the Referendum.

If we vote to leave then I'd suggest we'd need a Churchill like figure to guide Britain, but who of our current crop of Politicians are anywhere near Winston ? take your pick from those who want to leave................  Boris ?...............   Corbyn ?.............Nigel Farage ?   

And if we vote to stay, then your probably need a Maggie Thatcher type person to fight our corner in the EU, but we're lumbered with Cameron, or Clegg (remember him?)............Corbyn .............or maybe Nicola Sturgeon for PM.

                        Which makes the choice very difficult.

                                                   John

Quote by Geordiecpl2001
Taking a slightly different view of the Referendum.
If we vote to leave then I'd suggest we'd need a Churchill like figure to guide Britain, but who of our current crop of Politicians are anywhere near Winston ? take your pick from those who want to leave................  Boris ?...............   Corbyn ?.............Nigel Farage ?   
And if we vote to stay, then your probably need a Maggie Thatcher type person to fight our corner in the EU, but we're lumbered with Cameron, or Clegg (remember him?)............Corbyn .............or maybe Nicola Sturgeon for PM.
                        Which makes the choice very difficult.


                                                   John

Whoever were to get that task would no doubt have an extremely difficult time of it and it may well take a couple of terms for things to settle down. I don't think that's reason not to go for it because the alternative is to stay in and have an even worse time of it, being told what to do for the benefit of anyone and everyone except ourselves. One person I very much doubt we'll be lumbered with if we leave is Mr Cameron himself because if he didn't immediately resign voluntarily he'd be forced out... even the Tory party isn't (I hope) dumb enough to retain a pro-Europe leader if the country votes to leave the EU.

Boris... probably not the fool he makes himself out to be. I mean, how could he be? Actually, having seen him in action in the London Assembly, I'd say he definitely isn't.

I still like Nigel Farage and his choice of ties and on that basis I'm voting to leave the EU

Quote by Toots
I still like Nigel Farage and his choice of ties and on that basis I'm voting to leave the EU

Mr Farage is a very good orator and is expert at making his opponents look stupid, but how he would perform in a high office is anyone's guess because he's never been there. Mind you, could say the same about Mr Corbyn - I mean... who the hell IS he?

Quote by Ice_Pie

Quote by Toots
I still like Nigel Farage and his choice of ties and on that basis I'm voting to leave the EU

Mr Farage is a very good orator and is expert at making his opponents look stupid, but how he would perform in a high office is anyone's guess because he's never been there. Mind you, could say the same about Mr Corbyn - I mean... who the hell IS he?

At least he sticks to his principals... more than you can say about the other herberts. What you see is what get with Jeremy, like him or lump him

Quote by minikat
If we leave does that mean we can have wonky cucumbers back?

You can have them now if you want. That's one of many unnecessary myths about EU rules... there's enough wrong with it without having to make stuff up, but the Daily Mail likes to demonstrate whatever that thing is that it uses as a substitute for a sense of humour.

Heard today that the 'Vote Leave' group has been designated the official Brexit campaign and has been awarded a budget of £7 million. That's 2 million less than the government has already spent on one propaganda leaflet.

I'm working on a theory that humans have a Fight Fair gene, which is absent in politicians.

Actually, I'm a bit slow, aren't I? I've just realized... it's not a theory, it's a well known law of nature. Ho hum.

We're damned if we do and we're damned if we don't. If we stay, we're stuck with Camoron and Gideon The Coke Fiend. If we leave, their position will be untenable and they'll be replaced by the leaders of the Brexit campaign. So that'll be Boris and Iain Duncan Shipman. 

I'm not a religious man, but God help us.