New Law Preventing Discrimination Swinging Clubs

17 Oct 2010

Quote by wideeyedand
how many single men would actually take any action on this as most are married and go to clubs on the quiet and wouldnt want the wife to find out?

Individuals have gone to court on much worse imao. If a club was breaking the law the relevant authorities would be taking them to court anyhow.
I know of at least two clubs which have indoor smoking areas, relevant authorities haven't stopped that.
John

17 Oct 2010

Quote by _Darth_
... and it has to be said that despite that biase, in some (many?) clubs, you'd still see big imbalances with a lot more single guys than you'd expect to see if the aim was purely about ratios.

If the pricing structure changes as you suggest then expect to see even bigger imbalances. No one suggests that the pricing structure of clubs is fair to single guys but realistically, if it is changed to one where each person pays the same, expect to spend a lot of time in the sole company of men. You can have fair or you can have fun, but I doubt that you can have both.

17 Oct 2010

Quote by stokey12
If I recall te originl post correctly it said 'private members clubs' it therefore presumably would not apply to somewhereike Rios which is not a private members club. Which reminds me to mmenton this to Colin next time Isee him

I could be wrong but I don't think it's the case that this only applies to private members clubs, any club/venue private membership or otherwise has to apply the same pricing policy to its customers. This change closes a loophole.

Quote by northwest-cpl
... and it has to be said that despite that biase, in some (many?) clubs, you'd still see big imbalances with a lot more single guys than you'd expect to see if the aim was purely about ratios.

If the pricing structure changes as you suggest then expect to see even bigger imbalances. No one suggests that the pricing structure of clubs is fair to single guys but realistically, if it is changed to one where each person pays the same, expect to spend a lot of time in the sole company of men. You can have fair or you can have fun, but I doubt that you can have both.
Can't believe I spelt bias wrong!
You could well be right though I don't think the situation you talk about - big imbalances - is a new thing as it happens already. Guys won't keep going to clubs where its just full of guys either even with a single pricing structure so I reckon after a while the scene will settle back to something more like the current situation anyway. It's like the whole fuss over the smoking ban when people where going on about pubs/clubs etc seeing a massive drop in business, that hasn't really happened, people make a fuss then get used to it.
Time will tell.

17 Oct 2010

Quote by wideeyedand
Clubs can't win really, can they?
Charge less to single guys, equivalent of what a couple now pays, and get over-run. They either then have to turn people away based on gender (presumably discriminatory in itself) or let them all in. If they let them all in, risk driving the female club-goers away. Some clubs get full of guys already, imagine the state of these places if it became known to groups of stag parties and the like that these were cheap places to go and have a fumble? Ewww.
Charge more for couples and single fems and they will just vote with their feet and feck off elsewhere.
Nah, I reckon there will be a work round in the event of this becoming a real legal issue. I can't help thinking that it's a storm in a teacup due to the niche market status.
And I still want to know what service swingers clubs actually provide

The Equality Act 2010 requires private members’ clubs to act in a non-discriminatory way. This means that clubs will no longer be able to restrict access to activities or benefits, or apply different conditions and fees for membership on the basis of any of the protected characteristics.
Open it up a bit more for you blue with activities and benefits lol

LOLOL --- well, reading that wording... it looks like the act was written with swingers clubs in mind :lol: . Do you reckon whichever legal person wrote it is actually a single guys who is sick of being ripped off by his local singers venue ;-)

Quote by Geordiecpl2001
how many single men would actually take any action on this as most are married and go to clubs on the quiet and wouldnt want the wife to find out?

Individuals have gone to court on much worse imao. If a club was breaking the law the relevant authorities would be taking them to court anyhow.
I know of at least two clubs which have indoor smoking areas, relevant authorities haven't stopped that.
John
Ah yes, me too. I know two as well. And the manager of one of them is quite adamant s/he has never been bothered by the authorities. I don't know how true this is. Actually I can name three clubs. One, I think was raided some time ago, though I doubt it was for smoking. Dunno.... been out of the game too long - got some catching up to do...

17 Oct 2010

There is ten bonus points for anyone who can spot the deliberate mistake in my last post. I am not going to edit it, cos it's funny lol

17 Oct 2010

Quote by bluexxx
There is ten bonus points for anyone who can spot the deliberate mistake in my last post. I am not going to edit it, cos it's funny

You hum it.......................... :lol:
Mal
wink

17 Oct 2010

Quote by Mal
There is ten bonus points for anyone who can spot the deliberate mistake in my last post. I am not going to edit it, cos it's funny

You hum it.......................... :lol:
Mal
wink

All together now..... hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Name that tune!!!!
Sorry - hijak over :lol:

17 Oct 2010

I've said this on another thread...
If this law is allowed to effect clubs, i believe it will see clubs close...what makes these clubs are the women attending, and the majority of women come as a couple...if you up the prices in line with single guys, i believe it will drive away couples...if you drop the price of the single guys but still keep their numbers down this may not be cost effective for the club, so what do they do, they raise the number of single guys into the clubs...and quite possibly drive couple's away, accept maybe for the odd greedy girl and they alone can't keep a club afloat. in the end the only people in the clubs will just be single guys and the odd couple. So you do the maths and figure out why this law will be the end to swinging clubs.
Couples that generally went to mixed nights, because it was cheaper for them will probably start attending couples only nights if it turns out to be no difference in clubs have to stop doing couples only nights expect the attendances to drop, any single guy trying to push this through in their area, expect to see your club struggle and eventually close down.

17 Oct 2010

Shall we start a petition to save our swingers clubs. Shall we conduct a protest outside of number 10? Everyone is to dress up dead kinky so it gets on the telly. We'd probably recognise quite a lot of the MPs... and not just from the telly either wink

SOS -- save our swingers lol

17 Oct 2010

well....On the ratio situation...that could be easily rectified. You limit the amount of male to females you let in. So long as you set the limit at the same number, you are not descriminating against anyone.

17 Oct 2010

Quote by deancannock
well....On the ratiop situation...that could be easily rectified. You limit the amount of male to females you let in. So long as you set the limit at the same number, you are not descriminating against anyone.

Ah hah --- that could work :thumbs up:

18 Oct 2010

Quote by deancannock
well....On the ratio situation...that could be easily rectified. You limit the amount of male to females you let in. So long as you set the limit at the same number, you are not descriminating against anyone.

that would make it couples only then? probably the way that it will go if thid law gets taken seriously.

18 Oct 2010

no....not neccessarily......firstly you could say one single male to be let in for every single male !!
However the way I saw it working..was you set a limit.....so if club had a maximum attendance allowed of 100.....you would say..no more than 50 males....or 50 females.
That way....the club can regulate the amount of males allowed in to suit. However what they would not be able to do...was to charge any differant. So the club can easily regulate the ratio, and make sure the club does not become over-run with guys. What this will probably mean is that the guys will have to get their early to ensure they are permitted in. No reason why this can not work, and would be with-in the framework of the new legislation.

18 Oct 2010

Yes Dean, that would work, get a copy-write on it quick.. lol

18 Oct 2010

Quote by deancannock
no....not neccessarily......firstly you could say one single male to be let in for every single male !!
However the way I saw it working..was you set a limit.....so if club had a maximum attendance allowed of 100.....you would say..no more than 50 males....or 50 females.
That way....the club can regulate the amount of males allowed in to suit. However what they would not be able to do...was to charge any differant. So the club can easily regulate the ratio, and make sure the club does not become over-run with guys. What this will probably mean is that the guys will have to get their early to ensure they are permitted in. No reason why this can not work, and would be with-in the framework of the new legislation.

So if 50 single males turned up before any couples can not let any of the couples in because you already have your ratio of males.
Every couple has 1 male + 1 to keep the ratio of 50/50 you can only permit 1 single male for every single female.
Plus the couples must pay double what the single male is charged, so everyone pays the same rate.

18 Oct 2010

robbie....no the club would let say first 10 males in ....and then say no more can come in till at least 10 women have arrived ? What this would do in reality would allow the club to set the ratio. If they felt to many men in, would stop any more single guys coming in. If lots of couples in and lots of single ladies in, would be able to allow more in. Up to the club to set the ratio. As for cost...thats up to the club.....all they have to ensure is the cost of entrance for a male or a female is the same. This could be done by reducing the single guys entrance cost or This can be done by increasing the couples and females price. In reality it would probably end up as a half way house. Couples paying slightly more, but with males paying less than before.
If the legislation does kick in, this has to be the way they will operate.

18 Oct 2010

The club we go to has an invite policy of sorts. Everyone rings up beforehand to say they're coming and single guys get the green light to come depending on how many couples are there.
Its probably quite faffy for them to impliment but it works VERY well and ensures that the balance of couples to single men is spot on every time. And because everyone are members they know that's what they have to do.
A bigger club could easily do what Dean suggests and let in single men or small groups of single men only as the couples come in.
The pricing thing though, tit's such a damned either way situation for the club. They have to get the people through the door to make money. If they dont make money they dont survive. If they drop singles entrance they stand to lose the largest part of their income in some cases I would think. Any business would find that sort of hit difficult to do.
Has anyone been to a mixed night yet since the law changed?

19 Oct 2010

Quote by deancannock
robbie....no the club would let say first 10 males in ....and then say no more can come in till at least 10 women have arrived ? What this would do in reality would allow the club to set the ratio. If they felt to many men in, would stop any more single guys coming in. If lots of couples in and lots of single ladies in, would be able to allow more in. Up to the club to set the ratio. As for cost...thats up to the club.....all they have to ensure is the cost of entrance for a male or a female is the same. This could be done by reducing the single guys entrance cost or This can be done by increasing the couples and females price. In reality it would probably end up as a half way house. Couples paying slightly more, but with males paying less than before.
If the legislation does kick in, this has to be the way they will operate.

Maybe its just me then.
A male is a male and must be treated the same as females.
So just because he hasnt brought his female partner, he still has the same rights under the "new law".
If you refuse him entry, but allow the next male in because he has a female with him, your breaking the "new law"
You are not allowed to discriminate because he is not with a female.
Your idea sounds good but just doesnt work.

19 Oct 2010

Robbie....I would say no again...by allowing a male and female in together.....the owner is keeping the ratio okay. Normal nighclubs already do this now. Ask any doorman....all clubs have a policy. It may be unoffical, but everyone knows it exists. What the club can not do would be to charge differant.

19 Oct 2010

Quote by deancannock
Robbie....I would say no again...by allowing a male and female in together.....the owner is keeping the ratio okay. Normal nighclubs already do this now. Ask any doorman....all clubs have a policy. It may be unoffical, but everyone knows it exists. What the club can not do would be to charge differant.

Would appear that i have failed to understand the new law
"The Equality Act 2010 requires private members’ clubs to act in a non-discriminatory means that clubs will no longer be able to restrict access to activities or benefits, or apply different conditions and fees for membership on the basis of any of the protected characteristics. In addition, the Government is considering how the part of the Act providing additional protection from age discrimination can be implemented in the best way for business, and will make an announcement in due course."
Restrict access is not allowing them in as well as charging all the same price.
So denying access on the grounds (your single) is discriminatory.
The law only applies to private members clubs.
(A private club is an organisation with 25 or more members whose membership is controlled by rules involving a selection process.),
So really shouldnt affect swingers clubs anyway.

19 Oct 2010

Quote by robbo-bi1
Robbie....I would say no again...by allowing a male and female in together.....the owner is keeping the ratio okay. Normal nighclubs already do this now. Ask any doorman....all clubs have a policy. It may be unoffical, but everyone knows it exists. What the club can not do would be to charge differant.

Would appear that i have failed to understand the new law
"The Equality Act 2010 requires private members’ clubs to act in a non-discriminatory means that clubs will no longer be able to restrict access to activities or benefits, or apply different conditions and fees for membership on the basis of any of the protected characteristics. In addition, the Government is considering how the part of the Act providing additional protection from age discrimination can be implemented in the best way for business, and will make an announcement in due course."
Restrict access is not allowing them in as well as charging all the same price.
So denying access on the grounds (your single) is discriminatory.
The law only applies to private members clubs.
(A private club is an organisation with 25 or more members whose membership is controlled by rules involving a selection process.),
So really shouldnt affect swingers clubs anyway.
Being 'single' is not a 'protected characteristic' Robbo so it would not be unlawfully discriminatory to deny access on those grounds. As long as Deans ratios were adhered to clubs would be acting within the law. And just to reiterate an earlier point, I believe clubs could charge couples whatever they wanted against what they charged single males and females. In the same way that you can buy family tickets for other entertainment you could have a combined price for a club. It would not be unlawfully discriminatory as being single is not a protected characteristic.
It is my understanding that swingers clubs are predominantly private clubs with a controlled membership etc.

19 Oct 2010

Quote by robbo-bi1
The law only applies to private members clubs.
(A private club is an organisation with 25 or more members whose membership is controlled by rules involving a selection process.),
So really shouldnt affect swingers clubs anyway.

OK, so if that's the case, it goes back to the point I made a page or so back. As long as clubs ONLY make single guys join using a membership form, it's an all male membership thus no issues to the act. Couplesfems are not members, so it don't matter how many they let in. That's the true loophole, I'm tellin' ya!!

20 Oct 2010

Quote by bluexxx
The law only applies to private members clubs.
(A private club is an organisation with 25 or more members whose membership is controlled by rules involving a selection process.),
So really shouldnt affect swingers clubs anyway.

OK, so if that's the case, it goes back to the point I made a page or so back. As long as clubs ONLY make single guys join using a membership form, it's an all male membership thus no issues to the act. Couplesfems are not members, so it don't matter how many they let in. That's the true loophole, I'm tellin' ya!!
No blue that doesn't work at all. It would be unlawfully discriminatory to say that single males must both; have to be members and have to be members to get in. I suspect on both counts that would have been unlawful under old equal rights laws. The gender make up of the membership is irrelevant.
Lets imagine using your suggestion that your local gym said that all females must become members(at possible cost) but males didn't and males had access at all times but female (members) had limited access. How might you think that would go down. The gym would be taken to court and crucified.

20 Oct 2010

you can charge less for singles ladies if u have more single guys as members and the club can prove that is charghing single fems a cheaper price to address the balance in this .i.e if the club has 200 male members and 100 single fems, then the price would be different for single fems .

20 Oct 2010

Quote by deancannock
no....not neccessarily......firstly you could say one single male to be let in for every single male !!
However the way I saw it working..was you set a limit.....so if club had a maximum attendance allowed of 100.....you would say..no more than 50 males....or 50 females.
That way....the club can regulate the amount of males allowed in to suit. However what they would not be able to do...was to charge any differant. So the club can easily regulate the ratio, and make sure the club does not become over-run with guys. What this will probably mean is that the guys will have to get their early to ensure they are permitted in. No reason why this can not work, and would be with-in the framework of the new legislation.

Sounds sensible to me.
I think a lot of clubs were charging single guys excessive entrance and membership fees not simply as a means of keeping even ratios because I don't think that happened in practice - hence all the complaints from couples about all the single guys swamping a club - but also because it (1) allowed them to give free entry to single females and cheap subsidised entry to couples, and (2) keep the club going as making a club couples and single girls only, not many of them would probably survive.

20 Oct 2010

Quote by wideeyedand
The law only applies to private members clubs.
(A private club is an organisation with 25 or more members whose membership is controlled by rules involving a selection process.),
So really shouldnt affect swingers clubs anyway.

OK, so if that's the case, it goes back to the point I made a page or so back. As long as clubs ONLY make single guys join using a membership form, it's an all male membership thus no issues to the act. Couplesfems are not members, so it don't matter how many they let in. That's the true loophole, I'm tellin' ya!!
No blue that doesn't work at all. It would be unlawfully discriminatory to say that single males must both; have to be members and have to be members to get in. I suspect on both counts that would have been unlawful under old equal rights laws. The gender make up of the membership is irrelevant.
Lets imagine using your suggestion that your local gym said that all females must become members(at possible cost) but males didn't and males had access at all times but female (members) had limited access. How might you think that would go down. The gym would be taken to court and crucified.
I understand totally what you are saying. My point is, if the relevant bit of the act (and remember, I have not read it and don't intend to) defines as a private members club as an organisation with 25 or more members whose membership is controlled by selection) AND only affects private members club, it needs very careful re-wording. If clubs let people in who are not members (ie couples/fems) the law does not apply to them. It would only be discriminatory if the law said that if everyone who entered the premises HAD to be a member, and that's not what it's saying, is it?
I'm playing devil's advocate here. Personally, it doesn't matter to me. If clubs go charging silly amounts, I just won't go. I will have parties. Simples!

20 Oct 2010

I don't think the change is only about members only clubs, it was always discrimation to charge different pricing based on gender, this change is aimed at closing the loophole. I could be wrong, but I don't think so - if that were the case and you could get around it simply by not having membership - why bother with the law in the first place?
I wouldn't bother going to a club that was full of single guys either, but I do think it's absolutely right that this change was brought in.
... now if we could do something about fleecing motorists next ... ;-)

20 Oct 2010

Quote by _Darth_
I wouldn't bother going to a club that was full of single guys either, but I do think it's absolutely right that this change was brought in.

Be careful what you wish for, you might just have no choice in which club you go to if this is brought in. Many clubs are teetering on the edge already - lose the couples and lose the club - simples.
However, since most clubs have skirted the law in some form or other I don't expect this legislation to make much difference. But at least couples will have the party circuit to fall back on if it does. Wait and see what the 'private' pay parties charge single guys once the clubs shut.

21 Oct 2010

Quote by wideeyedand
Robbie....I would say no again...by allowing a male and female in together.....the owner is keeping the ratio okay. Normal nighclubs already do this now. Ask any doorman....all clubs have a policy. It may be unoffical, but everyone knows it exists. What the club can not do would be to charge differant.

Would appear that i have failed to understand the new law
"The Equality Act 2010 requires private members’ clubs to act in a non-discriminatory means that clubs will no longer be able to restrict access to activities or benefits, or apply different conditions and fees for membership on the basis of any of the protected characteristics. In addition, the Government is considering how the part of the Act providing additional protection from age discrimination can be implemented in the best way for business, and will make an announcement in due course."
Restrict access is not allowing them in as well as charging all the same price.
So denying access on the grounds (your single) is discriminatory.
The law only applies to private members clubs.
(A private club is an organisation with 25 or more members whose membership is controlled by rules involving a selection process.),
So really shouldnt affect swingers clubs anyway.
Being 'single' is not a 'protected characteristic'Robbo so it would not be unlawfully discriminatory to deny access on those grounds. As long as Deans ratios were adhered to clubs would be acting within the law. And just to reiterate an earlier point, I believe clubs could charge couples whatever they wanted against what they charged single males and females. In the same way that you can buy family tickets for other entertainment you could have a combined price for a club. It would not be unlawfully discriminatory as being single is not a protected characteristic.
It is my understanding that swingers clubs are predominantly private clubs with a controlled membership etc.
If the red bit above is true then why not charge ANY singles, male or female, the higher price which currently pertains to single guys. Couples prices stay as they are.
However, whenever a single female arrives she is notionally "coupled" with a single guy and they then get charged a couples rate.
IE, if at a club couples are charged 20 quid to get in. Joe is first single guy in, he pays 50 quid to get in, 5 more single guys arrive who each pay 50 quid, then Anne arrives, she is charged half the couples entry fee and then Joe gets a refund of 40 quid. Making his entry 10 quid same as Anne.
So therefore the discrimination is about being single (not protected) rather than gender and the club sees little or no difference in revenue.
John

21 Oct 2010

I'm sure there are tons of loop holes. Such is the UK justice system.