Blocked without an Interaction

It's moved on from the act of blocking to the aggressive accompanying message about harassment. Scroll up.

Quote by Gts

It's moved on from the act of blocking to the aggressive accompanying message about harassment. Scroll up.

The actual message when trying to view a blocked profile states .....

"Sorry but this profile and webcam cannot be viewed by your account, please DO NOT ask joeblogggs or comment in the Chatroom as to why you have been blocked as this could be viewed as harassment and result in action being taken against your account."

Just the same as a no parking warning could cause you to get towed away or fined it, doesn't mean that you are harresing some one for trying to view their profile but if you continually asked why you were blocked then that would be classed as harassment.

Its a nudge to hopefully STOP the person who has been blocked from getting banned by asking why they are blocked.

As numerous others have said in this thread you are not guilty of anything, but if the blockee didn't see that message then they might ask why and ask why again and "harass the blocker because in their eyes they have done nothing wrong, as I have said before its freedom of choice why members block others.

Generic messages exist and always will, if you have a problem with that message or indeed any generic message then please send any comments to the Site Admin via a support ticket.

https://www.swingingheaven.co.uk/support/new-ticket

And us moderators don't have the ability to add any member to another members block list .

Quote by Gts

It's moved on from the act of blocking to the aggressive accompanying message about harassment. Scroll up.

Aggressive? With all due respect, that is utter tosh. What you're saying now is that admin proactively informing/reminding a member 100% privately that something they may do might be considered against the rules before it's too late is in some way 'aggressive'. Nonsense.

These posts do make me smile at time. None of us like rejection. The old saying you cant like everyone and everyone cant like you comes to mind. Does it really affect YOUR life if someone has blocked you on here ? Are they the only ones you wish to meet/ perv at ? I very much doubt it. As for the aggressive behaviour well there is the ignore tactic. It does work, a fire only burns if you keep it stoked. Admin have a hard job trying to keep us all safe that's what the rules are set out to do. It is difficult at times to convey all in type text anyway and often simpler just to put the main points across. On the whole this is a fun community to be part of and not to be taken seriously. There are lots of people out there and someone for everyone just enjoy the someone's and sod the ones with lack of taste :) :) :)

Its a pain in the arse being blocked and with a nasty message because you opened a profile that said....you're a match.....🤣🤣🤣

Quote by chocco

Its a pain in the arse being blocked and with a nasty message because you opened a profile that said....you're a match.....🤣🤣🤣

Blocked with a nasty message? what nasty message? if its the standard message saying the profile has blocked you, I don't think its anything other than factual. If you've been sent nasty messages that could constitute abuse from anyone (including anyone who has blocked you) then you should report them.

I view profiles much like walking down the high street(before they all shut!) and window shopping. Some shops you just pass by, because you’re not interested in the product or don’t like the looks of the products on offer. Other shops you go in, and decide to never return again. Some shops, you visit and find everything you’re looking for and the angels sing!

We all have a block button and accept it’s just a tool for us to use. My block - my choice! No one else pays for our accounts, so block away! If someone blocks me, so be it, no butt hurt from me! If I block someone, it’s my choice, does it really matter? I just don’t wanna shop there….

Quote by osemlover

Thanks so much for pointing that out. Our aim was not to embarrass the sender who was polite throughout our exchange and for whom we have no animosity at all. He didn't argue about it or become abusive so well done to him. :) It was merely to educate all those people who wonder why they've been ignored and/or get upset about it. It comes down to the amount of times stuff like this happens and if it was happening to them all the time I dare say they'd get fed up with it too. We don't access this site via a mobile device so have no idea whether or not doing so makes accessing profiles harder or even impossible. If it does then that might account for some of the problems, however if you're going to send a message to someone blind as it were, why say you've read their profile? Why not just say from the outset that you haven't done so and accept that the recipient probably won't reply simply because you don't match what they're looking for? Our profile clearly states what we do/don't want and the limitations we're goverened by and have no control over (time and distance). If we check a profile, say, after having read a message but we see the sender doesn't match our requirements for whatever reason, we're not going to write a detailed explanation to them. If they'd bothered to read our profile, they'd have seen all this explained and would realise the reason(s) why.

Unless you've had an interaction with someone, it can't be anything you've said/done to them that has caused you to be blocked or ignored. The reason is that you don't match their requirements well enough or your profile is offputting to them in some way and they don't want to explain or maybe even have to argue about it. Remember they don't owe you anything. Just accept it and move on but maybe also review the impression your profile is creating and see whether it reflects you accurately and is likely to be appealing to many people here or not. If it's virtually empty because you can't be bothered to write something about yourself, why would you expect anyone to respond? If you've been here years yet it still says you're a newbie, what message does that convey? If your pics are 10 years old what impression does that create? If it's full of cock shots, extreme activities and/or crude language, don't expect people who are put off by that sort of thing to reply. If you're into bareback gangbangs, don't expect people who only want safe 1 on 1 sex to reply. It's not that difficult is it really? Guys far outnumber women and m/f couples here and those who get the best results do so because they put the effort into their profiles and target those who are the most likely to want what they're offering.

Most of the guys who complain about being ignored/blocked have virtually empty profiles even when they've been site members for years. Despite having failed miserably for years they still don't see any reason to change their approach and put some effort in. What sort of mindset is that? If they spent half as much time on their profiles as they do questioning being ignored/blocked they'd get far better results but I guess typing out a paragraph or two by way of a bio is all too much. After all this is just a sex site and all women/couples really want is as many anonymous cocks as they can get hold of as frequently as possible...

No wonder females/couples people click and walk on by eh?

Reading this lady's responses and comments and apart from the mod

she's the only one taking sense on here. 😉

Quote by 2for2more
So if you click on our profile and find yourself blocked, take it as a cue to come and say hello in a civilised manner.

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever!! Why would anyone under any circumstances consider being blocked as an invitation to connect, what a weird way of looking at things.

We had a message from a couple a while back, I read it a few hours after it was sent to us. I went to view their profile and found we had been blocked. No idea why they sent us the message and then blocked us. 🤷‍♀️

Quote by 2for2more
It's not so much an invitation to connect directly, as an invitation to behave like someone worth chatting to.

Understood, so everyone is by default "presumed to be likely to behave as someone not worth chatting to" unless they prove otherwise, and the best way to encourage someone to prove otherwise is to block them. Makes perfect sense now, thanks for clearing that up.

It seems to me that a number of other posters in this thread have touched on the actual issue here. The term "blocked" carries a certain amount of animosity and negative intent. The original poster made it perfectly clear that they were blocked without any interaction whatsoever, and I can understand why that might leave someone asking "what did I do?" so they know not to do it again. Many of the very valuable comments here clearly explain the reasons why single female and couple members suffer unduly, which I fully understand, and support the need to "block" those who are behaving badly. However, to just "block" someone with no reason, just because you have that as a default position, presume everyone's a dick and deal with the nice people later, is likely to cause offence, it's unavoidable because of the connotations of the word and the action in the wider social networking context.

Perhaps a solution would be to have an alternative status alongside blocked, "sorry not interested" or something along those lines. It would have the same effect, preventing any interaction between those two accounts, and for reference, I think it would be good if it were two way, as someone has pointed out the implementation of this system is flawed in that once blocked it's unnecessarily complicated to block back. The wording of the status is far less aggressive, and clearly indicates the reasoning for the status change and requires no follow-up or explanation, just "not interested". Blocked tends to imply that the block-ee has done something to cause irritation and has been blocked because of behaviour they are completely unaware of.

Just my two penn'orth.

Just one more point on this from me. Another downside of the system as it stands, and how it's used by some, is that I for one am now far more resistant to actually commenting on anyone's content. I will likely not comment on photos anymore for fear of causing offence and getting blocked, and that's a shame, a lot of people post photos here specifically to get comments and likes, enjoying the attention, that aspect of the site and service is at risk. Many folks will err on the side of caution and not like/comment/interact, and unfortunately, it's likely to be the non-dicks who fall into that category, the dicks will carry on unperturbed.

Blimey this is like picking at a scab. It wont heal and will do no good in the end. Leave it alone and move away from it and all mends. No one on here likes or wants to meet/converse with/ send explicit pictures to ALL members. IF someone on here chooses to block you for whatever reason, be it thay have changed their mind and do not wish to continue or explain, they have requested no mail from certain genders, or they are just excersising their personal choice in closing all contact. The generic message is just a basic explaination of that choice. It is not ment to cause offence and it certainly isnt the end of the world. This is an adult site think beyond the need to have verse and chapter on what why and where. Life is far too short So Dont Sweat The Small Stuff as the saying goes. Get on with finding compatable partners and have some fun move away from the negatives. Smile be Happy someone somewhere wants you honest they do.

Quote by 2for2more
We've had "sorry Not Interested" on our profile for years to no effect.

You've completely missed my point. The "sorry not interested" is a status, much liked the "blocked" status, in fact it could internally be implemented in the same way, preventing the individual for contacting you. Having "sorry not interested" on your profile has no effect against those who will not read it anyway, what I'm suggesting would do the same as blocking, but without the offensive connotations. Those who would be dicks will still be dicks, and you can block them if you have a strong feeling or evidence they are going to be dicks, the rest who's profile simply doesn't match your preferences, but have done nothing to indicate they are going to be dicks, can just be marked with the "sorry not interested" flag, which still means they cannot contact you, that's your choice of course, but the message is less harsh, and much more clear, you're not interested in them, they haven't necessarily done anything to irk you, or earn your distaste, you're just "not interested", it's far more polite and considerate, and far less aggressive.

Quote by _loz_
Blimey this is like picking at a scab. It wont heal and will do no good in the end.

I completely understand your point, but IMHO, if there is a way of doing what people are doing, without the implicit offensive/aggressive connotations, that is simple to do, makes everyone more comfortable, reduces the risk of people shutting down or second guessing the simplest of interactions, and still gives those taking the brunt of the abuse the tools they need to make their time on the site more pleasant, wouldn't it be silly not to?

Quote by newbieanalyst

I completely understand your point, but IMHO, if there is a way of doing what people are doing, without the implicit offensive/aggressive connotations, that is simple to do, makes everyone more comfortable, reduces the risk of people shutting down or second guessing the simplest of interactions, and still gives those taking the brunt of the abuse the tools they need to make their time on the site more pleasant, wouldn't it be silly not to?

I think you've raised some interesting points and I know the admin team do spend time reading what people want so am sure they'll take your point onboard.

I'd also say this, generally speaking who you talk to in a pub is like this- say the wrong thing and they wont want to talk to you again, make a nice well received compliment and you're likely to be welcomed back for another conversation in future. Its a little bit of trial and error to find the balance and work out what's ok in each different pub, but I think that's part of the fun.

To extend the analogy further, some people would prefer to stand by the bar, ignoring everyone until they see someone they want to talk to, the downside to this of course is that by that point, having ignored everyone for some time, those people might not want to talk to them!

Quote by Lapua
I'd also say this, generally speaking who you talk to in a pub is like this- say the wrong thing and they wont want to talk to you again, make a nice well received compliment and you're likely to be welcomed back for another conversation in future. Its a little bit of trial and error to find the balance and work out what's ok in each different pub, but I think that's part of the fun.

I'm glad the folks running the site listen, although I doubt anything will happen. However, your analogy is flawed. It presumes that the person being blocked has "said the wrong thing", however, the original poster, and many others, have made clear comments in this thread, and one member has clearly stated their default policy, to not wait for anyone to say anything, just block by default. So the better analogy would be if someone walked into a pub, and every table had a sign on it saying "I don't want to talk to you, go away", and you're still expected to "make a well received compliment" in order to demonstrate that you aren't the sort of person who would say "the wrong thing".

Quote by newbieanalyst

I'm glad the folks running the site listen, although I doubt anything will happen. However, your analogy is flawed. It presumes that the person being blocked has "said the wrong thing", however, the original poster, and many others, have made clear comments in this thread, and one member has clearly stated their default policy, to not wait for anyone to say anything, just block by default. So the better analogy would be if someone walked into a pub, and every table had a sign on it saying "I don't want to talk to you, go away", and you're still expected to "make a well received compliment" in order to demonstrate that you aren't the sort of person who would say "the wrong thing".

I can see what you're saying, but you missed a little bit of the point that makes a difference: In this case the "Wrong thing" is entirely subjective and in the ear of the beholder. It could even be nothing at all, some people are not even giving people the chance to speak before deciding, personally I think that says more about them than anything, but we all have our own choices to make.

I understand how frustrating that can be, but I'd say when you have seen some of the things people get sent, its an understandable approach.

I'll give a blunt but hopefully illustrative example: I know some people, enjoy, under the right circumstances to be called various things, by the right person, that under other circumstances they would take (potentially explosive) exception to! Its all about context and getting to know peoples likes and dislikes.

As for your comment about people having the default policy- those were the people standing by the bar ignoring people in my analogy.

Quote by Lapua
As for your comment about people having the default policy- those were the people standing by the bar ignoring people in my analogy.

There is clearly more than one interpretation of all this, and it seems that it's difficult at best to get a common understanding, so this is my last comment on this subject, it's ruining my mojo. That analogy is still wrong, they are not just standing at the bar ignoring everyone, they are actively pushing everyone away, if they were just ignoring them, that would be fine, but what they are doing is waiting for people to come into the bar, and immediately saying to them "I don't like you, don't talk to me", before they'd even opened their mouths. That's the offensive part, "blocking" someone in social networks has connotations, blocking someone for absolutely no reason is going to be taken as offensive, simple.

Quote by newbieanalyst

There is clearly more than one interpretation of all this, and it seems that it's difficult at best to get a common understanding, so this is my last comment on this subject, it's ruining my mojo. That analogy is still wrong, they are not just standing at the bar ignoring everyone, they are actively pushing everyone away, if they were just ignoring them, that would be fine, but what they are doing is waiting for people to come into the bar, and immediately saying to them "I don't like you, don't talk to me", before they'd even opened their mouths. That's the offensive part, "blocking" someone in social networks has connotations, blocking someone for absolutely no reason is going to be taken as offensive, simple.

I see where you're coming from, but you can't "actively" ignore someone. I suspect if we called it "muting" an account something like some other social media rather than "blocking" it might not be quite so charged a term. But it seems to me, you're reading a lot into a relatively simple act- would it feel better if you were just muted rather than blocked?

It seems you've chosen to attach being offended to being blocked, I have never seen it that way. I've never felt I have a "right to be heard" so to speak, so if I am blocked, that's fine by me, clearly we wouldn't have got on well together anyway.

Quote by 2for2more
Imagine being with your wife/girlfriend in a public place and being approached by a single man who expected to only speak to the female half, regardless of her or your personal preference, Starting the conversation by showing his dick and insisting on having a conversation that he can openly masturbate over. Surely you can see the novelty is going to wear a bit thin in time and eventually you just might want to take steps to avoid the likelihood of it happening again and again and again. Given the options available here, What would you do?

Imagine being on your own, nervously walking into a crowded place, just looking to be social and make friends, and having various people in the place meet slap you in the face and tell you to f-off before you've even opened your mouth or given any indications of your personality or intentions. That would get a bit off-putting very quickly, and you'd probably want to take steps to avoid that happening again, by perhaps just staying at home and keeping to yourself. What would you do?

All I'm saying is, I get you need some measures to protect yourselves from the annoying folks on the site, get that totally, it's a shame but that's the world we live in. You absolutely should have tools to block the person who approaches you inappropriately, or sends unrequested dick picks, that's a given. But, does it have to be such a carpet bomb attack approach, that takes 95% of the innocent bystanders with it while trying to take out the 5% dicks?

I know many folks here are like "what's the big deal, it's just a block, get over it", but to some personality types, being "blocked", along with all the connotations that has built up in the social network rich society we live in, for no apparent reason, can induce a lot of anxiety and doubt. Some personality types are not overtly outgoing, and struggle to deal with social situations anyway, but are trying to find ways to overcome that, and will internalise that sort of thing and analyse it trying to work out what they did wrong to avoid doing it again, which is a very destructive rabbit hole.

All I'm asking is that you consider the fact that not everyone on the site is going to be the same personality type, not everyone is an extrovert, who can just brush off things without caring, and consider how the site's tools and mechanisms can be used inadvertently to devastating effect, and for the site owners to perhaps consider introducing some more nuanced mechanisms that give the same level of control and protection but in a less aggressive manner.

Bring on the "what a snowflake" comments, I'm used to them. And this genuinely is my last word on the subject, mojo completely obliterated.

Quote by 2for2more

I repeat my question. What would you do in our position?

So far everything you've written is all about you and your feelings. Suggesting that using the only means available to prevent nuisance contact makes us bad people. Which in itself is insulting and portrays an attitude of entitlement and serves as an excellent demonstration of why we do it.

There are as many reasons for being on this site as there are members and everyone has a different way of dealing with each other. We've found ourselves blocked from profiles we've never visited before too. Presumably that's just their way of saying they're not interested. What's the point of us pursuing it?

As I have said many times we have nothing against single people, whatever their persuasion. But that doesn't mean we have to leave ourselves open to abuse. We have no control over how the site presents itself, even though you appear to think it does so on our behalf.

I've not intentionally made it about me and my feelings, I'm attempting to raise awareness of a group of users on this site who I happen to be a member of. I didn't even start this thread, so there alone is evidence that I'm not the only person affected.

I don't agree that the guilty until proven innocent approach you take in terms of individual banning is the only tool you have at your disposal. In the privacy settings you can prevent single females, single males, or couples contacting you, and you can prevent anyone but friends adding feedback to your photos/videos. I don't know for sure how that works in the system, but I suspect the message an individual sees would be less "this person has blocked you", and more "this person has blocked single males" or something like that. That would be less "personal" than just blocking every male that appears in chat which is a much more directed approach that comes across, albeit unintentionally, as more of a personal attack on the individual.

I have suggested a possible solution, only one person has even acknowledged it, and then misinterpreted it to some degree. You say that you have limited tools or means to make the site workable for you, but I have yet to hear any suggestions from you as to what changes might mitigate that. If I scan over the entire thread, I believe I'm the only person who has made any constructive suggestion for change.

In answer to your question, I personally would block those who have demonstrated a reason to be blocked, but that's just me. As an example, I cam on another site, and often get visitors who identify as gay or bi and get very pushy despite making it abundantly clear that I'm straight. When they do, I kick them out, but I don't ban every person who comes into the room who identifies as gay or bi in case they are pushy. That's just my personal approach though. I get that your situation is as unique as mine and you prefer your approach. All I'm trying to achieve is to raise some awareness to the site owners that the tools they make available are inadequate, and a more nuanced approach could be beneficial to all involved.

I did, and do, not intend to make it personal against you specifically, or even about those members who take a similar approach, I understand you all have limited tools at your disposal, I only even mentioned your post, and then not by name, because you're the only one who has clearly stated the details of your approach, so I highlighted that as an example of how the tools as they stand can be problematic, in the hope that the site owners might see the problem and consider changes to make it better for all.

The message members see is as follows.

"Sorry but this profile and webcam cannot be viewed by your account, please DO NOT ask "username" or comment in the Chatroom as to why you have been blocked as this could be viewed as harassment and result in action being taken against your account"

It's a generic message which everyone would see regardless if they have a cpl or single profile, if they have been blocked by a profile.

I would suggest if you see the above,then just move on with your head held high,as obviously they are not for you.

And if at some point in the future you meet a nice person who then becomes part of your profile,those that have blocked you for being not what they want,have now taken a couple out of their search,that might have been exactly what they were seeking.

I started out on here as a single male but I've also met the love of my life on here and we have a couple's profile.

All those people that blocked me and i mean lots of them,are they now saying "ffs wish i hadnt blocked him cos his partner now is hot as fuck? Or thank feck we blocked him cos his partner is a dog?

Maybe or maybe not, they or indeed us will never know.

so...

Don't take it personally folks, life is too short to worry about little things like that.

This can probably be closed off - I was having a moan at the wording of a message, can't believe how popular the thread is ....should have fallen off the bottom ages ago :-)

Quote by newbieanalyst

I've not intentionally made it about me and my feelings, I'm attempting to raise awareness of a group of users on this site who I happen to be a member of. I didn't even start this thread, so there alone is evidence that I'm not the only person affected.

I don't agree that the guilty until proven innocent approach you take in terms of individual banning is the only tool you have at your disposal. In the privacy settings you can prevent single females, single males, or couples contacting you, and you can prevent anyone but friends adding feedback to your photos/videos. I don't know for sure how that works in the system, but I suspect the message an individual sees would be less "this person has blocked you", and more "this person has blocked single males" or something like that. That would be less "personal" than just blocking every male that appears in chat which is a much more directed approach that comes across, albeit unintentionally, as more of a personal attack on the individual.

I have suggested a possible solution, only one person has even acknowledged it, and then misinterpreted it to some degree. You say that you have limited tools or means to make the site workable for you, but I have yet to hear any suggestions from you as to what changes might mitigate that. If I scan over the entire thread, I believe I'm the only person who has made any constructive suggestion for change.

In answer to your question, I personally would block those who have demonstrated a reason to be blocked, but that's just me. As an example, I cam on another site, and often get visitors who identify as gay or bi and get very pushy despite making it abundantly clear that I'm straight. When they do, I kick them out, but I don't ban every person who comes into the room who identifies as gay or bi in case they are pushy. That's just my personal approach though. I get that your situation is as unique as mine and you prefer your approach. All I'm trying to achieve is to raise some awareness to the site owners that the tools they make available are inadequate, and a more nuanced approach could be beneficial to all involved.

I did, and do, not intend to make it personal against you specifically, or even about those members who take a similar approach, I understand you all have limited tools at your disposal, I only even mentioned your post, and then not by name, because you're the only one who has clearly stated the details of your approach, so I highlighted that as an example of how the tools as they stand can be problematic, in the hope that the site owners might see the problem and consider changes to make it better for all.

I think the different perception of the 'problem' arises because of the volume of messages couples and females get which is far higher than males. Almost every day we get unsolicited messages from guys (some of which we find very offensive) who have completely ignored what's clearly written in our profile. If it happened only rarely we'd be far more tolerant but it happens such a lot that we decided to just block people who contact us without having bothered to read our profile first. That includes the many who send us winks and crass one line messages asking us to check them out even though they either couldn't be bothered to check our profile or simply chose to ignore its content.

We're only looking for guys and it would certainly help us if the blocking functionality could be refined so that we could target its scope more specifically to prevent, say, smokers or people outside our age range*, from contacting us because we're never going to meet them. Meeting is the entire reason we're here after all (not to exchange messages with countless random people however nice they are) & the 'you've been blocked' message need only be polite and simple e.g. You are unable to contact this member because you don't match certain of their key requirements.

*That isn't a criticism of them, by the way, just the reality of our lives and our personal preferences.

Quote by osemlover
If it happened only rarely we'd be far more tolerant but it happens such a lot that we decided to just block people who contact us without having bothered to read our profile first.

100% agree that's absolutely the right thing to do, that's what the tool is for, and anyone who contacts you without doing you the courtesy of reading your bio first deserves to be blocked and should neither be surprised or offended, no issue with that at all, that's not, and never has been, the issue I'm trying to raise.

The thing I'm not comfortable with is those who "...we now block every single male we see in chat.", that's "guilty until proven innocent", with no means to prove innocence, and feels heavy handed and aggressive. If they were to just not allow any male accounts to contact them using the privacy settings, that's also perfectly reasonable, if they are not looking for single males, makes sense, but to individually pick out every male account they see in chat and intentionally block that particular account is more of a directed personal criticism with no justification.

Quote by 2for2more

OK, So blocking is a heavy handed approach that upsets needy single guys who want to have a free run of everyones profile, regardless of whether it suits us or not. So I've taken the other option, in order to protect our own privacy and comfort I've made some changes to it. But more importantly, to avoid upsetting delicate male sensibilities any further, I'm working my way through our entire block list removing all the blocks so you can all come and go as you please.

Just as you're free to do whatever you please with your profile and the tools on the site, you're also free to monumentally misinterpret the intent of my comments and throw out random insults, everyone is free to interpret things in a way that suits their narrative.

Quote by 2for2more

OK, So blocking is a heavy handed approach that upsets needy single guys who want to have a free run of everyones profile, regardless of whether it suits us or not. So I've taken the other option, in order to protect our own privacy and comfort I've made some changes to it. But more importantly, to avoid upsetting delicate male sensibilities any further, I'm working my way through our entire block list removing all the blocks so you can all come and go as you please.

This is uncalled for, please try to keep your comments polite, your view is no more or less valid than anyone else's, but calling people needy isn't going to make the forums more welcoming or productive as a place to have CIVILISED discussion, thank you.

It would be great if there were a user defined option we could select to auto block anybody who blocks me.

I agree that people are entitled to block whoever they wish , But I also dont see why they should be able to view profiles thay have blocked, should be a two way thing.

If I block someone then why would I have an ongong interest in viewing their profile

I also agree that the threatening message isn't nice.

Its not ideal but not worth getting hung up about.