Before you go too deeply into anti-US statements, I suggest you check the who's-who of countries selling materials (inc weapons) to middle eastern countries.
This also includes sales DURING the UN embargo.
Many of our EU allies as well as many of our enemies.
If you find someone telling the truth about any of this, kneel down and praise him/her, because it'll be the Lord.
It certainly won't be any politician, all of who are liars by definition.
These are "facts" because of your dislike of the US.
You are confusing (and confused) because you consider that US companies and US government have the same agenda, whereas all the evidence would indicate that the two are not directly linked. US companies frequently sell articles to Anti-US governments, and the US forces are frequently injured by the same weapons they themselves are equipped with.
ALL the evidence from various senate committees would lead any thinking person to conclude that large companies (US, UK, German etc) have little interest in politics other than what they can gain from it.
And some of the companies selling to Iraq during the embargo are run from EU countries, in which they are owned.
You can use the same argument for practically every war since the start of the 20th century, to now.
None of your arguments will have any effect, on any country or its political or economical agenda. All wars have their start in economics, politics or religion. And frequently all three together.
All are justifiable to someone, using a large variety of specious argument. Your anti-US stance will affect nobody, since nobody cares. Here or in the US.
As I said, whichever government is in power the same people run it, and very few are elected.
no jomu that is the point.
government and commerce are inextricably linked. it can quite easily be argued that commerce actually is more powerful than govt, and govt is forced to follow their agenda. the whole point of imperialism is ultimately commercial yes. securimng resources to maintain your economy. it's achieved by military means all too often, but it serves what you could call the military-industrial complex, which lies at the heart of power?
who backed bush? who will back kerry? they can only get elected with massive campaign funding from business. so to say that government and commerce are not hand in glove is a myth. who backed bush if not the oil companies? where did cheney get his support and finance from? oil companies? who now are in charge of the iraq war? politicians backed by, and with heavy investments in, oil companies. could it be the agenda is shared?
and so what if the US sells weapons to supposedly non-friendly states? well charging a few million for a jet helps pay for more jets for the US yes? so the firepower of the US benefits from those arms sales? if US soldiers get killed by those weapons in the long run? well i'm sure bush is weeping as we speak about that one eh?
the fact that select/senate committees examine these issues, is more to do with partisan politics than any real desire to force the govt to follow a certain moral path. as you rightly say there will be no change, precisely because the goals of govt, the military and commerce are one and the same thing.
neil x x x;)
If you read the history of the whole area you will find that democracy is not its strong point. It's not a point at all there.
As such, any sanctions would not work since they affect only the masses and not the rulers.
Any sanctioned change of government will have little effect since the "other" lot are no better than the previous lot.
A political government is also unlikely since it would need military support, and the military leaders would prefer to do the leading themselves. As in Iraq.
In short, the whole area is a bag of shit and unlikely to change anytime soon, if ever.
OMG what have i started,it looks like this place is turning into a political site :shock: :shock:
I wonder if "The Power of Nighmares" at 9pm on BBC 2 this evening will shed any new light on this subject. Or if it will shift the views of anyone who has contibuted to this thread.
Since my last post it seems that others have added some very interesting points. This thread invaded my whole day at work and I couldn't get it out of my head. So first of all thanks to all the participants who have added their thoughts and opinions.
One thing that has been praying on my mind is what Neil said about the economics and political parties being as one, with these being the "Big" two that have the power to cause the wars.
What sprung into my mind is that I am a consumer of what these people sell. Mainly we are talking about oil, this powers the manufacturing, transport infrastructure, retail, etc. So in effect these "Big" two are causing wars for what the consumers (me & you) need. So is it our greed to have more and more consumables that makes these companies grow and be able to come to a point where they have the power to influence governments?
If it is, then collectively, we are responsible for the growth of these companies and the power they weild. Is it our "Have it now" generation that is compounding these conflicts.
Neil, thoughts on this one please m8.
Dave_Notts
dave_notts
absolutely bang on mate!
the whole point of building the british empire, which we did militarily, was to secure the resources that allowed us to become Great Britain. we did that by force, and plundered the world, to make us rich. being rich allowed us to develop technologies that made us even stronger, and build up our navy and armed forced to go after the next target. at the end of the day, imperialism is about cash, and that cash brings power with it.
political clout in the world, and being stronger than your neighbour, can only be achieved if you are in a position of strength. again that takes cash. so you acquire whatever resources you can, and convert them into cash by encouraging people to buy them. and if you can keep on persuading people to buy the next new thing, so much the better. spend money on R&D to keep the cycle going. the same goes militarily. we can sell semi-obsolete weaponry abroad, cos it pays for developement of new weapons that give us the edge still. so arms sales of hawk jets to indonesia are ploughed back into eurofighter, etc.
our greed is encouraged by business who advertise the latest soap powder or mobile phone or cleaner petrol. oil is probably one of the biggest raw materials there is, which is why oil companies have so much political clout. remember the 3 day week in the 70's? down to the OPEC oil crisis. oil, or a lack of it, can rapidly have a country by the bollox. remeber the petrol strike not so long back? we ground to a halt for weeks.
it means we constantly have to go after the raw materials we need to feed that greed. it's all one and the same thing at the end of the day. that greed is encouraged by business, and government accomodates the needs of business, because a strong economy means a strong nation politically and militarily. they are all following exactly the same agenda. to be stronger than the competition.
don't think i did a very good job there, but that's the gist of it.
neil x x x;)
So if I wrote was bang on that means that the consumer is the "guilty" one for causing the misery of conflicts. That means all of us, including the ones that blame it all on Bush and America.
Therefore, should we all take a hard long look at what we do in our own little lives that has a drastic effect on the rest of the world. What do we as individuals do to prevent the unjustice in the world. How many only buy "Fair Trade" goods, or check that the consumables we buy are produced by companies that have no implication in the arms industry or companies that exploit other countries.
Plenty of people jumped on the band wagon to blame Bush, America, Blair, UN, in fact blame anything/anyone except to look inwards. People want to know how to stop future conflicts? The answer is not as hard as you think. If you want to help then stop and think before you purchase consumables and goods. Money talks, I have the power, you have the power, we have the power to help prevent conflicts.
But as Christmas approaches, how many of you that blame everyone else look what is in your trolley. As I said earlier in this thread, "Let he who has committed no sin cast the first stone". I am not religious but have borrowed the saying from a religious book that puts exactly what I need to say here.
I have not tried to defend the war or those that have created it. I want people to realise it is not as simple as some think it is. This debate has opened a lot of issues that some would not want to think about, but you should. Life is not simple, it is very complicated but the small things can and will change the world we live in.
I hate war with a passion. Not of what I have seen on the TV or read about. Its because I have been there. It is the most cruel thing that man can do. So anything that can prevent one should be done. This means by us all.
Dave_Notts
oh bollox. ;)
dave, i could give you a kind of answer on that, but it would be an essay of several thousand words on marxist theories of capitalist economies, globalisation, imperialism and consumerism, and how they're all inextricably linked. i don't want to write it, and i doubt anyone wants to read it, but in a word, yes, you're absolutely right. we all have some responsibilty there, and i'm not gonna suggest that i'm without sin on that one.
runaway consumerism is both a necessary consequence, and a cause, of the kind of imperialism we are seeing. it's a vicious circle, with one feeding the other continually, and the options of opting out of it, without massive change to the political and economic systems of pretty much the entire world, is very difficult and extremely complex. too complex for me. i have no answers on that. but i absolutely agree with you that we all have a responsibilty on this one.
neil x x x ;)
i totally agree with Foxylady's comments
Having just watched Faranheit 9/11 and last nights "power of nightmares" .The one big element that screams out to me from both is the power of the media,both in what was illustrated in both pieces and in the way that they both positioned is so easy to manipulate and steer with the use of propaganda,when in the hands of the state but also in the hands of independent film makers.
There is no doubt in my mind that we were and are still being duped by our leaders regarding the Iraq conflict,there is no doubt etiher that the working class will always be the first line of defence it was ever image that struck me most from Faranheit 9/11 was of the dedicated patriot mother who lost her son being confronted by the woman in Washington,and her reacting with such dignity and asking why are they so ignorant?The horrible irony was that she was so sure the war was just ,until she lost her had completely swallowed the "company line" and it took that tragedy to take the scales from her eyes.
Neil you know you can't stay out of this thread mate. You would end up biting your fingers off if you couldn't type about this lol
I see the debate has identified 3 main players
Politicians
Economics i.e. companies
Consumers
and depending on where your politics lay or lack of politics will depend on who you blame the most for conflicts. There is not one who is more guilty than the other but people are trying to blame one more than the other.
What have people who have contributed to the thread actually done since the "Official" end of the conflict to prevent another conflict? I know we can rant and rave about the legitamacy of this one but it is now history.
Dave_Notts
PS Evens says Neil will have to contribute again. If not I will have to give him a beer from my own stash at the Notts munch.........but somehow I doubt it lol
Dave_Notts
