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Could You Kill?

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Human nature/free will
It's a wonderful thing.
It's a horrible thing.
It's the one of our best "assets"
It's also our worst.
As others have said; it's unlikely that anyone can answer the question unless they've been in the situation.
Some interesting (to me, on a personal level) points have been raised and mentioned so far.
Although the original question was (I think) more about the protection of "loved ones" - comments about general killing have arisen, and in particular - during war/military service.
Kill to save a loved one ?
Easy. I will/would kill. or die; for me and mine.
Generally . .
I can remember an 'arguement' I had with someone on SH because we placed different levels of importance on "human life" - Mine was (and remains) rather cavalier - at best. We clearly had lead different lives.
Even the re-programmed, rigidly-reconstructed morality of the trained soldier has been found wanting at the point where the execution of his duty (the death of another) has not only been required but demanded / ordered.

I would always argue that it is the training or selection procedures that are at fault.
Despite all the training in the world, only when it comes to the actual crunch will you ever know for sure.

I agree.
I'd also say that there is a huge difference between "natural reaction/protection" and lets's call it "planned action"
could i kill?
yes!
without hesitation, no question, in less than a heartbeat, if it was my last available option?

Last available option. How would you know ? Could the argument be that by the time you realise it isyour last option - it's too late ?
In unexpected or unfamiliar highly stressful/terrifying situation it is not always those conscious/logical parts of the brain that take control…
The primitive brain will make one person run, one person fight and another freeze to the spot they are standing. It may kick in partially or fully. It may take control for a second or two or longer.
So until you have the confidence that you can control your primitive brain in such a situation, it is not really possible to say what you would actually do by using the logical bit.
Then there is the term ‘red mist’, often used in relation to road rage - where people find themselves doing something incredibly aggressive or even violent without fully realising what they are doing, until they are doing it or have done it.

That's where training, courage, strength of character (and a few other things) come into play.
It ispossible to have "red mist" wash over you, and to have the primitive brain and primeaval insticts come into play - but to remain in complete control of ones physical actions and aggressions. I think the term most frequently used, but rarely truly understood is "Controlled Aggression" what can be a little scarey is the level of aggresion that most of us are capable of.
Being able to kill is not the mark of a man. Being able to stand up for one's friends and justice is the mark of a man.

But if the taking of someone's life could be argued as righteous and just ? Providing the "killer" is prepared to stand chin proud and answer for their actions.
Some will kill "on behalf" of those that won't/can't. Whether by specific/indivual request or not. They are (generally/by and large) dark, unwanted people. Their actions, and even their very existance, sometimes denied in polite company. But they are still neccassary. And, I think, only truly understood and appreciated by their own peers - if at all.
An intersting thread almost in the week of Rememberance Day.
I've purposely left out the names of authors in quotes. My comments are general, and not aimed at the individuals.
Yes and yes, the training takes over.
Regret? no.
Quote by dambuster
........

Being able to kill is not the mark of a man. Being able to stand up for one's friends and justice is the mark of a man.

But if the taking of someone's life could be argued as righteous and just ? Providing the "killer" is prepared to stand chin proud and answer for their actions.
Some will kill "on behalf" of those that won't/can't. Whether by specific/indivual request or not. They are (generally/by and large) dark, unwanted people. Their actions, and even their very existance, sometimes denied in polite company. But they are still neccassary. And, I think, only truly understood and appreciated by their own peers - if at all.
....................
and that is why in Hollywood hero and villian standing at each end of the street is not so far from the truth.
Why we ask of the 'hero' you should have wounded him.
Some really interesting responses to my initial question.
I suppose in a way it was a bit of a simplistic question..................I'm sure it's very true that acting in the heat of the moment is totally different to a cold-blooded decision to kill.
So here is a different scenario to consider.
Your child/partner is threatened with death, and the only way to save them is to push a button that will kill a dozen random strangers somewhere in the world. Would you push that button?
If yes, how many would you be prepared to kill?
Would you kill 20? 50? 100? 1,000?
Would there come a point where you wouldn't consider the life of your loved one worth the sacrifice of so many?
Quote by Lissa
Your child/partner is threatened with death, and the only way to save them is to push a button that will kill a dozen random strangers somewhere in the world. Would you push that button?

I know this might be contraversial but I would let my child/partner die as I think I would find it harder to deal with causing the death of 12 people who whilst I didn't know are still the same as all human beings and have families etc so the level of grief it would cause would be much more than just the grief felt towards my loved one......
although my grief would be massive.......to know that I had caused 12 lots of families and friends to expierience the same thing would be too much for me to deal with.......
Quote by poshkate
although my grief would be massive.......to know that I had caused 12 lots of families and friends to expierience the same thing would be too much for me to deal with.......

Hypothetically
I dont think you would feel a great deal for those other families as you would, like de sade has said, have no emotional attachment to those strangers or those families.
Like anything else I've found in life, morals and standards soon dissapear in a puff of smoke when death beckons
wink
I think I could let a thousand people die before my own child..
Quote by Warmer
I think I could let a thousand people die before my own child..

What they said
Quote by the_Laird

although my grief would be massive.......to know that I had caused 12 lots of families and friends to expierience the same thing would be too much for me to deal with.......

Hypothetically
I dont think you would feel a great deal for those other families as you would, like de sade has said, have no emotional attachment to those strangers or those families.
Like anything else I've found in life, morals and standards soon dissapear in a puff of smoke when death beckons
wink
well yes this is the problem with any sort of hypothetical discussion.........
whilst I understand your point, I think that this is a very personal debate where there can never be any right or wrong answer. As I said I couldn't live with the guilt that others have died because of my selfishness to keep my loved one alive. For me seeing that loved one would always remind me of the destruction I had caused to others.
At least in a hypothetical sense that is what I think I would feel but as others have mentioned we all react differently when we are put into a situation for real...... smile
Yep I understand that and as you say there can be no right or wrong answer.
Look at it another way
What about the selfishness of worrying more about your moral conscience than the life of your child?
Life's shit at times eh?
wink
Quote by Lissa
Some really interesting responses to my initial question.
I suppose in a way it was a bit of a simplistic question..................I'm sure it's very true that acting in the heat of the moment is totally different to a cold-blooded decision to kill.
So here is a different scenario to consider.
Your child/partner is threatened with death, and the only way to save them is to push a button that will kill a dozen random strangers somewhere in the world. Would you push that button?
If yes, how many would you be prepared to kill?
Would you kill 20? 50? 100? 1,000?
Would there come a point where you wouldn't consider the life of your loved one worth the sacrifice of so many?

This is far trickier than the other one as I'd have rational thinking time. confused
I think I'd struggle with this as surely blowing up random people to have my loved ones released is terrorism in a lot of people's eyes isn't it?
Jas
XXX
Is it possible that you could push the button or sign a piece of paper condemning 100,000 or more to death with out a conscience. Then when you see some of them shot have to be led away because you are overcome by the reality of it.
You think not? It happened to at least one NAZI.
Yes it is far to easy to kill if you do not see the bodies.
Travis
This is so hard for me . But I feel compelled to answer the original question.
There have been a few incisive posts on here from people who have some comprehension as to the multiple facets of the scenario. Whilst recognising that there are infinite no's of variations on the theme we can all envisage a scene where our loved ones lives were placed in immediate and mortal danger where we would (hopefully, because we cannot predict how we would react as others have said on here)intervene and kill to protect if it was required (rationale would almost certainly not be part of the thought process).
Without knowledge the above would be my response ...alas I have been in a situation where I have been responsible for the death of a man. Not in the context of the above situation ...but similar in as much as there are very good reasons why I should be able to dismiss it as unavoidable and not something I should feel responsible for . SO easy to type that but the reality is that the event has changed me as a person forever. I will never be able to forget it; I can not stop it from affecting my emotions again and again . The pain diminishes but it just becomes buried deeper in my sub concious .surfacing less frequently but still oh so potently . I am told I am blameless and the police agree ...yet I cannot dismiss it because I know if I were to live through that event again I could have taken action that may have avoided it
To those who have not experienced such turmoil the subconcious is a massively powerful part of your personality. ( I liken it to the two thirds of an ice berg that are unseen below the water) The concious mind does not communicate well with it ..yet it has such an influence over how we react to things ....it is an area that one cannot deal with directly and cannot therefore control ..
The sub-concious is what affects how you would react at the time and even more powerfully how you react after the event and believe me you don't know what is going on inside yourself, well not without help and massive self insight.
So those people who say I would kill and it wouldnt bother me in the slightest ...are sadly mistaken ..it would affect you eternally ...the danger is some may not realise it.
May it never happen to anyone on here.
With regard to the war situation ...the motivation to kill would be on a kill or be killed (either by the enemy, or by your own side) . So I think the majority would take the line of least resistance and opt for survival. One only has to look at what happened to the Vietnam survivors to see what toll it took on their sanity.
Finally in respect of the child spouse versus random no's of others ... this is serious head fuck territory I am not even going to attempt to deal with it ...I would call for James Bond to resolve it for me.
Quote by niceguysdoexist
This is so hard for me . But I feel compelled to answer the original question.
There have been a few incisive posts on here from people who have some comprehension as to the multiple facets of the scenario. Whilst recognising that there are infinite no's of variations on the theme we can all envisage a scene where our loved ones lives were placed in immediate and mortal danger where we would (hopefully, because we cannot predict how we would react as others have said on here)intervene and kill to protect if it was required (rationale would almost certainly not be part of the thought process).
Without knowledge the above would be my response ...alas I have been in a situation where I have been responsible for the death of a man. Not in the context of the above situation ...but similar in as much as there are very good reasons why I should be able to dismiss it as unavoidable and not something I should feel responsible for . SO easy to type that but the reality is that the event has changed me as a person forever. I will never be able to forget it; I can not stop it from affecting my emotions again and again . The pain diminishes but it just becomes buried deeper in my sub concious .surfacing less frequently but still oh so potently . I am told I am blameless and the police agree ...yet I cannot dismiss it because I know if I were to live through that event again I could have taken action that may have avoided it
To those who have not experienced such turmoil the subconcious is a massively powerful part of your personality. ( I liken it to the two thirds of an ice berg that are unseen below the water) The concious mind does not communicate well with it ..yet it has such an influence over how we react to things ....it is an area that one cannot deal with directly and cannot therefore control ..
The sub-concious is what affects how you would react at the time and even more powerfully how you react after the event and believe me you don't know what is going on inside yourself, well not without help and massive self insight.
So those people who say I would kill and it wouldnt bother me in the slightest ...are sadly mistaken ..it would affect you eternally ...the danger is some may not realise it.
May it never happen to anyone on here.
With regard to the war situation ...the motivation to kill would be on a kill or be killed (either by the enemy, or by your own side) . So I think the majority would take the line of least resistance and opt for survival. One only has to look at what happened to the Vietnam survivors to see what toll it took on their sanity.
Finally in respect of the child spouse versus random no's of others ... this is serious head fuck territory I am not even going to attempt to deal with it ...I would call for James Bond to resolve it for me.

Excellent post :thumbup: Im sorry to hear of what you went through and still go through. It has made me think again about it all.
louise xx
Quote by niceguysdoexist
This is so hard for me . But I feel compelled to answer the original question.
There have been a few incisive posts on here from people who have some comprehension as to the multiple facets of the scenario. Whilst recognising that there are infinite no's of variations on the theme we can all envisage a scene where our loved ones lives were placed in immediate and mortal danger where we would (hopefully, because we cannot predict how we would react as others have said on here)intervene and kill to protect if it was required (rationale would almost certainly not be part of the thought process).
Without knowledge the above would be my response ...alas I have been in a situation where I have been responsible for the death of a man. Not in the context of the above situation ...but similar in as much as there are very good reasons why I should be able to dismiss it as unavoidable and not something I should feel responsible for . SO easy to type that but the reality is that the event has changed me as a person forever. I will never be able to forget it; I can not stop it from affecting my emotions again and again . The pain diminishes but it just becomes buried deeper in my sub concious .surfacing less frequently but still oh so potently . I am told I am blameless and the police agree ...yet I cannot dismiss it because I know if I were to live through that event again I could have taken action that may have avoided it
To those who have not experienced such turmoil the subconcious is a massively powerful part of your personality. ( I liken it to the two thirds of an ice berg that are unseen below the water) The concious mind does not communicate well with it ..yet it has such an influence over how we react to things ....it is an area that one cannot deal with directly and cannot therefore control ..
The sub-concious is what affects how you would react at the time and even more powerfully how you react after the event and believe me you don't know what is going on inside yourself, well not without help and massive self insight.
So those people who say I would kill and it wouldnt bother me in the slightest ...are sadly mistaken ..it would affect you eternally ...the danger is some may not realise it.
May it never happen to anyone on here.
With regard to the war situation ...the motivation to kill would be on a kill or be killed (either by the enemy, or by your own side) . So I think the majority would take the line of least resistance and opt for survival. One only has to look at what happened to the Vietnam survivors to see what toll it took on their sanity.
Finally in respect of the child spouse versus random no's of others ... this is serious head fuck territory I am not even going to attempt to deal with it ...I would call for James Bond to resolve it for me.

This post sums up the post event emotions very well. I am sorry that anyone has to feel this way, but remember it was not down to you. You were not to blame.
I know this was not easy for you.
Travis
I could definitely do it. To protect somebody you know and probably love to a high degree, I would argue, why wouldn't you do it?
Yes, I think the humanity in all of us would mean there would be some regret and possibly guilt, but at least you will have your close one
What a topic to pick, but I agree, it depends on the situation at the time, whos involved, what is involved, and the circumstanses.
I have been involved with three deaths personaly, one was a very bad car accident, where a sixteen year lod girl and a twentyfive year old lady was killed after they ran into me!!! It never plays on my mind because it was proved beyond all doubt, that I was the innocent party, thank god!.
But the other one was when i was in Africa, and there was some trouble with the "Simba's", one tried to hit me with a machette, he missed and he was on his knees in front of me, telling me he was a Catholic, and was sorry!!! I shot him through the forehead. Do I feel any remorse, the answer is definatly "NO", he tried to kill me and I got the better of him, I have never lost one hours sleep over this incident since it happened in the late 60's. Would I do it again? It comes down to what I said at the beginning, what, who and the circumstances.!!!!
I would add that intimate killing or detached killing are two different areas...
Hands on face to face is very different than dropping a laser guided bomb on a target 20,000ft below you...psychologically speaking...
The effect on the killer is also different from a psychological perspective...
Discus confused s...