Unfortunately when you play by the rules of the western ‘civilised’ countries, there will always be innocent lives shed when ridding the world of a tyrant. The rules being – declaring war, using armed forces and following(ish) a code of conduct and rules of engagement. Yet nobody seems to have told the tyrants what the rules are.
Ridding the world of evil tyrants would be so much easier and cheaper if we could ignore the rules and just hired teams of mercenary assassins. But of course that is not considered ‘fair’!
I understand the economical implications (oil) of the war in Iraq are more than just a reason to shout ‘hypocrisy’ and they have deeper implications than most people care to consider. But it is hypocrisy when the evil acts of Saddam are used as the primary public reasons for justifying the war in Iraq and a complete c**t like Mugabe can apparently do what he wants with little more than a stern word in the ear.
I for one would support taking Mugabe out whether by the rules or not.
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Discuss away! (split from 'Explosion in London')
Quote by Ice Pie
Can you list all the attrocities carried out in the name of Christianity?
They are well documented and you're obviously aware of them. Do you imagine that I condone them?
..forgive me for attempting to interpret the meaning of the reference to Christianity, but I guess the point being made was that their are many Biblical references to which Christians do not adhere to...the overwhelming majority of Muslims are peace loving, law abiding people...if they all slavishly followed this doctrine as you quote and you suggest they do, then these atrocities would be much more prolific. I am not a student of the Koran, but know ing a little bit of the Bible..I guess it's easy to extract passages and use them to convey any message you want to...
Quote by PoloLady
Unfortunately when you play by the rules of the western ‘civilised’ countries, there will always be innocent lives shed when ridding the world of a tyrant. The rules being – declaring war, using armed forces and following(ish) a code of conduct and rules of engagement. Yet nobody seems to have told the tyrants what the rules are.
Ridding the world of evil tyrants would be so much easier and cheaper if we could ignore the rules and just hired teams of mercenary assassins. But of course that is not considered ‘fair’!
I understand the economical implications (oil) of the war in Iraq are more than just a reason to shout ‘hypocrisy’ and they have deeper implications than most people care to consider. But it is hypocrisy when the evil acts of Saddam are used as the primary public reasons for justifying the war in Iraq and a complete c**t like Mugabe can apparently do what he wants with little more than a stern word in the ear.
I for one would support taking Mugabe out whether by the rules or not.
I think I have to agree with this.
Another of our rules seems to be as long as you dont threaten anyone else, carry on killing your own.
Quote by Happy Cats
Just a few words, following the predictable US bashing, it is worth remembering the following –
Without the US, we would be under Nazi rule.
Without the US after the 2nd World War we would have been part of the Soviet Bloc.
Without the US, the west wouldn’t have had a secure oil supply from the Middle East. Yes it was partly about oil.
Yes, in an ideal world we would deal with China and North Korea, but we can’t because they have nuclear weapons. Yes we should deal with Zimbabwe, but they are not threatening their neighbours or sponsoring terrorism elsewhere, as far as I am aware, so we haven’t.
Pick away………………..
Without the US a lot of people would not have been murdered and tortured in south America. Without the US Saddam Hussein would not have existed. without the US there would have been no Israel hence no middle east conflict and I could go on.
The USA is an evil world power. I don't condem the ordinary American people as many of them are very aware about their own government.
Quote by seagull69
Just a few words, following the predictable US bashing, it is worth remembering the following –
Without the US, we would be under Nazi rule.
Without the US after the 2nd World War we would have been part of the Soviet Bloc.
Without the US, the west wouldn’t have had a secure oil supply from the Middle East. Yes it was partly about oil.
Yes, in an ideal world we would deal with China and North Korea, but we can’t because they have nuclear weapons. Yes we should deal with Zimbabwe, but they are not threatening their neighbours or sponsoring terrorism elsewhere, as far as I am aware, so we haven’t.
Pick away………………..
Without the US a lot of people would not have been murdered and tortured in south America. Without the US Saddam Hussein would not have existed. without the US there would have been no Israel hence no middle east conflict and I could go on.
The USA is an evil world power. I don't condem the ordinary American people as many of them are very aware about their own government.
Without the US, chances are, you wouldnt have been able to say the above.
I quite agree Happy Cats - its remarkable how virulent some people in their anti-Americanism. I live in the US at the time of 9/11 and I think people forget very easily how shocking that was, and how much we owe the Americans in the past 65 years. We may disagree with some of their actions, particularly over Iraq, but I would rather have them as the sole global superpower than any other candidate.
Without the US, we stood alone against Nazi Germany until mid 1941, then Russia came in and the Americans joined only after they had been attacked. That was 3 weeks off of 1943! . The U.S had a policy of isolationism, as they said it was a European problem...
Did the US secure oil in the Middle East or was it the British Empire? Who drew those lines on a map that now form most of the countries that are the middle East? The British. we carved it out in the 1920's.
Would we be speaking German or Russian now? I very much doubt it.....
As for what Seagull said, I agree. The US Govt, now and in the past has created some of the problems we are now seeing. Palestine for starters. If you wont agree to invading Zimbabwe because it hasn't invaded it's neighbours, why not use the same criteria and lets go and sort Israel out? It most certainly has invaded it's neighbours, even the UN has passed resolutions saying so....
C'mon, we go to war on dodgy grounds in Iraq, surely the same must be true then if other countries behave the same??? Let's go and liberate Palestine......
In George Orwells book 1984, the people were continually told they were under attack by the enemy, this enabled the powers that be to stave off any criticism of themselves or of internal revolt as the people were figthing outsiders. They could create a Big Brother state as the people thought it protected them.... it would be laughable now, if it was not so bloody obvious as to what is happening .... Create a war, blame the other side for starting it, perpetuate the war to secure land /oil/wealth and bring in draconian laws that wont stop what Al Quada do... only the names change. ... ad infinitum....
Did the US secure oil in the Middle East or was it the British Empire? Who drew those lines on a map that now form most of the countries that are the middle East? The British. we carved it out in the 1920's.
Would we be speaking German or Russian now? I very much doubt it.....
As for what Seagull said, I agree. The US Govt, now and in the past has created some of the problems we are now seeing. Palestine for starters. If you wont agree to invading Zimbabwe because it hasn't invaded it's neighbours, why not use the same criteria and lets go and sort Israel out? It most certainly has invaded it's neighbours, even the UN has passed resolutions saying so....
C'mon, we go to war on dodgy grounds in Iraq, surely the same must be true then if other countries behave the same??? Let's go and liberate Palestine......
In George Orwells book 1984, the people were continually told they were under attack by the enemy, this enabled the powers that be to stave off any criticism of themselves or of internal revolt as the people were figthing outsiders. They could create a Big Brother state as the people thought it protected them.... it would be laughable now, if it was not so bloody obvious as to what is happening .... Create a war, blame the other side for starting it, perpetuate the war to secure land /oil/wealth and bring in draconian laws that wont stop what Al Quada do... only the names change. ... ad infinitum....
Quote by Duckforce
I quite agree Happy Cats - its remarkable how virulent some people in their anti-Americanism. I live in the US at the time of 9/11 and I think people forget very easily how shocking that was, and how much we owe the Americans in the past 65 years. We may disagree with some of their actions, particularly over Iraq, but I would rather have them as the sole global superpower than any other candidate.
As I have said I am not Anti American. I don't want any country to be a super power imposing their values on me or anyone else for that matter.
I have to repeat, without the US we would have lost the Second World War and lived under a regime subservient to Nazi Germany.
The freedom that we enjoy is in the main due to the U.S. They are wrong in a lot of different ways, but the bottom line is, without the actions of the US in the last 64 years, chances are we would not be free.
The freedom that we enjoy is in the main due to the U.S. They are wrong in a lot of different ways, but the bottom line is, without the actions of the US in the last 64 years, chances are we would not be free.
Quote by Happy Cats
Just a few words, following the predictable US bashing, it is worth remembering the following –
Without the US, we would be under Nazi rule.
Without the US after the 2nd World War we would have been part of the Soviet Bloc.
Without the US, the west wouldn’t have had a secure oil supply from the Middle East. Yes it was partly about oil.
Yes, in an ideal world we would deal with China and North Korea, but we can’t because they have nuclear weapons. Yes we should deal with Zimbabwe, but they are not threatening their neighbours or sponsoring terrorism elsewhere, as far as I am aware, so we haven’t.
Pick away………………..
Without the US a lot of people would not have been murdered and tortured in south America. Without the US Saddam Hussein would not have existed. without the US there would have been no Israel hence no middle east conflict and I could go on.
The USA is an evil world power. I don't condem the ordinary American people as many of them are very aware about their own government.
Without the US, chances are, you wouldnt have been able to say the above.
Personaly I owe my freedom of speech to the struggles of the working class.
Quote by seagull69
Just a few words, following the predictable US bashing, it is worth remembering the following –
Without the US, we would be under Nazi rule.
Without the US after the 2nd World War we would have been part of the Soviet Bloc.
Without the US, the west wouldn’t have had a secure oil supply from the Middle East. Yes it was partly about oil.
Yes, in an ideal world we would deal with China and North Korea, but we can’t because they have nuclear weapons. Yes we should deal with Zimbabwe, but they are not threatening their neighbours or sponsoring terrorism elsewhere, as far as I am aware, so we haven’t.
Pick away………………..
Without the US a lot of people would not have been murdered and tortured in south America. Without the US Saddam Hussein would not have existed. without the US there would have been no Israel hence no middle east conflict and I could go on.
The USA is an evil world power. I don't condem the ordinary American people as many of them are very aware about their own government.
Without the US, chances are, you wouldnt have been able to say the above.
Personaly I owe my freedom of speech to the struggles of the working class.
The freedom you have enjoyed for the last 64 years is directly due to the actions of the US. Without the US, this country would have not spent the last 64 years as a democracy.
Sex God
Quote by Happy Cats
The freedom you have enjoyed for the last 64 years is directly due to the actions of the US. Without the US, this country would have not spent the last 64 years as a democracy.
If we're going to be historical about it the Americans would be speaking Dutch or French if it wasn't for us. And the september 11th bombings would have been in New amsterdam.
No-one knows how the 2nd world war would have ended without the americans, second guessing history is a pointless exercise.
Quote by rogerthedragon
The freedom you have enjoyed for the last 64 years is directly due to the actions of the US. Without the US, this country would have not spent the last 64 years as a democracy.
If we're going to be historical about it the Americans would be speaking Dutch or French if it wasn't for us. And the september 11th bombings would have been in New amsterdam.
No-one knows how the 2nd world war would have ended without the americans, second guessing history is a pointless exercise.
I was being selective, and went back 64 years.
Who do you think would have won?
Quote by Happy Cats
The freedom you have enjoyed for the last 64 years is directly due to the actions of the US. Without the US, this country would have not spent the last 64 years as a democracy.
If we're going to be historical about it the Americans would be speaking Dutch or French if it wasn't for us. And the september 11th bombings would have been in New amsterdam.
No-one knows how the 2nd world war would have ended without the americans, second guessing history is a pointless exercise.
I was being selective, and went back 64 years.
Who do you think would have won?
Tell you what, forget that question.
How about the this?
The main reason we enjoy the freedom that we have to day is........................................
I mistakenly posted this in the wrong thread so bringing it over here.....
Maybe not a bus, but remember these words?....
“With our matches and our necklaces we will liberate this country†Spoken in true Winnie Mandela style.
Remember what the necklace was that she was referring to is?
A car tyre round someone’s neck, filled with petrol and set alight.
Like I said, depends which side you’re looking in from.
Unfortunately there’s no such thing as a clean fair fight, not matter what side you’re standing on.
Quote by Libra+Love
Terrorist depends on which side you're looking at it from.
I can remember a time Mandela was labelled a terrorist....today he's the ultimate freedom fighter.
Quote by 3someinpreston
Mandela never blew up a bus tho did he?
blatant terrorists!
Maybe not a bus, but remember these words?....
“With our matches and our necklaces we will liberate this country†Spoken in true Winnie Mandela style.
Remember what the necklace was that she was referring to is?
A car tyre round someone’s neck, filled with petrol and set alight.
Like I said, depends which side you’re looking in from.
Unfortunately there’s no such thing as a clean fair fight, not matter what side you’re standing on.
Quote by Happy Cats
Just a few words, following the predictable US bashing, it is worth remembering the following –
Without the US, we would be under Nazi rule.
No we wouldn't. Before we stepped in, Hitler had no intention of invading the UK. A great deal of the structure he put into place in Nazi Germany was based on his view of a British ideal. He sent over ambassadors in an attempt to win Britains neutrality and even support for the Nazi policies in the 30s. Even after the start of the war he never had any concrete plans to invade, he just wanted us to keep out of what he was doing. But if the people of this country had been told any of this at the time, then the huge national support and moral required to fight the war we found ourselves in would have crumbled.
Point 2, the US made themselves very rich as we made ourselves very poor fighting the war. The American people never wanted to get involved in the fighting, but were more than happy to sell us weapons and supplies, creating a huge debt on our side. That the US finally got involved was due to much backroom politicking, and by that point the war was already turning for Hitler, as he made the Napolean mistake of taking on Russia, a decision that cost the Germans and the Russians millions of lives. The German war machine was weakend by both the Russian winter and the determination and sheer numbers of Russians fighting them off.
Without the US after the 2nd World War we would have been part of the Soviet Bloc.
Other than a blind faith in the cold war propoganda we were fed, what evidence do you have to back that up? Eastern Europe was swallowed by the communists due to massive strategic mistakes on the part of the allies, predominantly the US (so it can be argued that in fact the countries who did fall prey to the Soviet Bloc did so because
Without the US, the west wouldn’t have had a secure oil supply from the Middle East. Yes it was partly about oil.
Go back not all that far, and a great deal of the middle east were on our side, to an extent even united because of promises to help their desire for sovereinty in return for help against the Ottoman empire. These promises were broken, leading them to distrust us immensly. Nontheless, we had great sway over teh area for some time to come, but caused ever more friction. Even so, nothing was stopping free trade, but we don't want free trade if it means higher prices. And by this time we were very much in bed with the US, a double edged sword when it comes to global dealings.
Yes, in an ideal world we would deal with China and North Korea, but we can’t because they have nuclear weapons. Yes we should deal with Zimbabwe, but they are not threatening their neighbours or sponsoring terrorism elsewhere, as far as I am aware, so we haven’t.
We should either set ourselves up as moral guardians of the world and step in wherever injustice happens (no matter what skin, faith or natural reserves the "oppressed" have") and face the consequences, or keep out of matters which don't affect us. Or at teh very least be honest when we go and beat another country up and kill thousands of innocents as "collaterl damage" and say it's because they're smaller than we are, and have some sweeties we want.
Might be nice if we sorted out some of the mess we historically created though, which does include the Israel/ Palestine conflict, other areas in the middle east, and a few areas of Africa.
Pick away………………..
Just have
Sex God
Quote by
can you save the arguments about terrorism for another time... to be honest i don't think now is the time to be doing it.... thank you...
Exactly........I am now watching this thread and will deleted any argumentative posts.
This thread is not the place for it
Guess she must have fallen asleep or got bored...
No, she split the thread at the point where the arguing started. Guess you must have fallen asleep. :whistling:
Sex God
Quote by seagull69
Let us not forget that a certain Black Man had to fight for freedom in his own country and died for it. I am talking about Martin Luther King. America a great country. yea right.
Your point being?
Quote by Ice Pie
Let us not forget that a certain Black Man had to fight for freedom in his own country and died for it. I am talking about Martin Luther King. America a great country. yea right.
Your point being?
My point being is that some people on here are praising the US for helping us during the war thus giving us freedom.. My point is this is a country that even their own citizens had to fight for freedom. Have you got it now ice pie.
Anyway off to work now
Circles.
Going round.
In.
:roll: :roll:
Doesn't matter what anyone thinks or says. It's what they do that matters, Be thankful that you live in a country where you can have any number of children, the birds fly freely and the whole of the internet isn't moderated. Some countries restrict access to the www BECAUSE of the types of discussions we are having here and because of the amount of information available through it.
And we just use it to whine, bitch and score points off other strangers.
:shock: :shock:
Going round.
In.
:roll: :roll: Doesn't matter what anyone thinks or says. It's what they do that matters, Be thankful that you live in a country where you can have any number of children, the birds fly freely and the whole of the internet isn't moderated. Some countries restrict access to the www BECAUSE of the types of discussions we are having here and because of the amount of information available through it.
And we just use it to whine, bitch and score points off other strangers.
:shock: :shock:
Sex God
Quote by seagull69
My point being is that some people on here are praising the US for helping us during the war thus giving us freedom.. My point is this is a country that even their own citizens had to fight for freedom. Have you got it now ice pie.
Anyway off to work now
I fail to see how America's civil rights record invalidates its role in WW2. They are two completely different issues aren't they?
Have a safe day at work. I'm putting my feet up today, and after yesterday, I need it.
Shambolic
In order to keep this short, I’m not going to split up your post.
We would have been under Nazi rule.
Without the US, we would have lost. What Hitlers plans were before the war or up to 1940 are irrelevant. What our government told us up to 1940 is irrelevant, we would have lost the war, by being starved into submission.
You might argue that Germany might have been defeated by Russia, either way, we would have been beaten, out of it and subservient to the victor. Both horrible, nasty dictatorships.
After the 2nd World War, with the result that stood, without the US we would have been part of the Soviet Bloc.
Lets sweep everything under the carpet and claim the cold war was all propaganda, it didnt exist! Solzhenitsyn in his novel The First Circle describes how Stalin intended to fight and win a decisive 3rd World War. (Not a politician an academic & writer).
Without the US, we wouldn’t have a secure oil supply.
Not talking about the Ottoman Empire, just post WW2.
The last point about China etc.
I have nothing to add, you haven’t disagreed with me!
If we hadnt won WW2 and the cold war, we wouldnt be debating this now and dissappearing up our own arseholes. We can question and criticise without fear to ourselves or our families. There were 2 other alternatives in Europe, Russia and Germany, neither of which would have left us with our freedoms.
If all the countries in the world were democracies, there probably wouldnt be wars and the world would find it far easier to stamp out the scum that killed those people yesterday
They might be flawed, you might not like them, their motives might be selfish but without the US we would be dancing to a far more sinister tune.
In order to keep this short, I’m not going to split up your post.
We would have been under Nazi rule.
Without the US, we would have lost. What Hitlers plans were before the war or up to 1940 are irrelevant. What our government told us up to 1940 is irrelevant, we would have lost the war, by being starved into submission.
You might argue that Germany might have been defeated by Russia, either way, we would have been beaten, out of it and subservient to the victor. Both horrible, nasty dictatorships.
After the 2nd World War, with the result that stood, without the US we would have been part of the Soviet Bloc.
Lets sweep everything under the carpet and claim the cold war was all propaganda, it didnt exist! Solzhenitsyn in his novel The First Circle describes how Stalin intended to fight and win a decisive 3rd World War. (Not a politician an academic & writer).
Without the US, we wouldn’t have a secure oil supply.
Not talking about the Ottoman Empire, just post WW2.
The last point about China etc.
I have nothing to add, you haven’t disagreed with me!
If we hadnt won WW2 and the cold war, we wouldnt be debating this now and dissappearing up our own arseholes. We can question and criticise without fear to ourselves or our families. There were 2 other alternatives in Europe, Russia and Germany, neither of which would have left us with our freedoms.
If all the countries in the world were democracies, there probably wouldnt be wars and the world would find it far easier to stamp out the scum that killed those people yesterday
They might be flawed, you might not like them, their motives might be selfish but without the US we would be dancing to a far more sinister tune.
Quote by Libra+Love
I mistakenly posted this in the wrong thread so bringing it over here.....
Terrorist depends on which side you're looking at it from.
I can remember a time Mandela was labelled a terrorist....today he's the ultimate freedom fighter.
Quote by 3someinpreston
Mandela never blew up a bus tho did he?
blatant terrorists!
Maybe not a bus, but remember these words?....
“With our matches and our necklaces we will liberate this country†Spoken in true Winnie Mandela style.
Remember what the necklace was that she was referring to is?
A car tyre round someone’s neck, filled with petrol and set alight.
Like I said, depends which side you’re looking in from.
Unfortunately there’s no such thing as a clean fair fight, not matter what side you’re standing on.
..as you point out, the necklace quote is not attributable to Nelson Mandela..it was spoken by Winnie, his ex wife who had her own agenda and was soon ostracised by Mandela and his polictical organisations. Although it is difficult to justify any kind of terrorism which has a murderous objective..I think it is useful to remember the post war political situation in South Africa and the lack of democracy & opportunities that existed for its indigenous population.
Quote by Ice Pie
My point being is that some people on here are praising the US for helping us during the war thus giving us freedom.. My point is this is a country that even their own citizens had to fight for freedom. Have you got it now ice pie.
Anyway off to work now
I fail to see how America's civil rights record invalidates its role in WW2. They are two completely different issues aren't they?
Have a safe day at work. I'm putting my feet up today, and after yesterday, I need it.
...nonetheless, it's ironic that a country that trumpeted and continues to do so, it's commitment to freedom and equal opportunities globally, had such an appalling record in its own backyard...whilst it was fighting world wars. During WW II, even blood supplies for their injured servicemen were segrated ffs...black men were good enough to die for their country..but didnt have equal rights at home or on the battlefield!
Quote by Sgt Bilko
...and if my aunty had balls she'd be my uncle!!
Fair comment
I was just trying to point out that, despite some people not liking them, without the big nasty US over the last 60 years or so, we would have been f**ked!
We dont need to speculate whether your auntie had balls!
Quote by alspals
..as you point out, the necklace quote is not attributable to Nelson Mandela..it was spoken by Winnie, his ex wife who had her own agenda and was soon ostracised by Mandela and his polictical organisations.
Define soon? How many years before that happened?
OK the guy took a better route in the end.
Quote by alspals
Although it is difficult to justify any kind of terrorism which has a murderous objective..I think it is useful to remember the post war political situation in South Africa and the lack of democracy & opportunities that existed for its indigenous population.
It's not quite honky dorie at the minute is it?
Of course the Great British Empire had no part to play in the current situation. Bringing tribes together, forming new regions and countries and then in the decline of the Empire - handing back what wasn't theirs and letting the tribal groups fight it out amongst themselves.
Without spending all day on this (I still have DIY to do) we should take some of the responsibility for helping to get it right and as I have said before sort out the people like Mugabe.
