Discuss away! (split from 'Explosion in London')

8 Jul 2005

Quote by Happy Cats
...and if my aunty had balls she'd be my uncle!! :? :? :? :?

Fair comment
I was just trying to point out that, despite some people not liking them, without the big nasty US over the last 60 years or so, we would have been f**ked!
We dont need to speculate whether your auntie had balls!
or would she have been a footballer?

8 Jul 2005

Quote by PoloLady
Define soon? How many years before that happened?
OK the guy took a better route in the end.
Although it is difficult to justify any kind of terrorism which has a murderous objective..I think it is useful to remember the post war political situation in South Africa and the lack of democracy & opportunities that existed for its indigenous population.

It's not quite honky dorie at the minute is it?
Of course the Great British Empire had no part to play in the current situation. Bringing tribes together, forming new regions and countries and then in the decline of the Empire - handing back what wasn't theirs and letting the tribal groups fight it out amongst themselves.
Without spending all day on this (I still have DIY to do) we should take some of the responsibility for helping to get it right and as I have said before sort out the people like Mugabe.
..from memory, I guess Nelson had split up from Winnie within a year of being released from prison..so he wasn't exactly dragging his feet.
Regards your second point...I totally agree..can't see what I said that brought about your comment. I'm certainly not saying that terrorism is in anyway justified in a now, 'democratic' South Africa..as bad as things appear to be, at least everyone has a legal right to vote, whereas they didnt before the end of apartheid and therefore perhaps felt morally justified in engaging in terrorist activities.
Hope you have a successful DIY day...and I trust you mean DIY in the conventional sense? :shock: lol

:lol:

8 Jul 2005

Quote by alspals
..as you point out, the necklace quote is not attributable to Nelson Mandela..it was spoken by Winnie, his ex wife who had her own agenda and was soon ostracised by Mandela and his polictical organisations. Although it is difficult to justify any kind of terrorism which has a murderous objective..I think it is useful to remember the post war political situation in South Africa and the lack of democracy & opportunities that existed for its indigenous population.

You're right, change was needed.
But t's how change anywhere is achieved that troubles me. I don't believe the end justifies the means.
Edit/ And Mandela was the leader of a terrorist group known as the ANC, now a legit party. Which is the point I was making about "terrorist" depending on which side you're standing on.

8 Jul 2005

Quote by alspals
.... in a now, 'democratic' South Africa..as bad as things appear to be, at least everyone has a legal right to vote

and get shot, tortured or have their house dulldozed if they vote/could have voted the wrong way!
Yes I did mean the conventional DIY lol

8 Jul 2005

all i want to say on the matter is that if anyone lives in london or have friends/relatives in london i hope you or they are well!
louxxxx

8 Jul 2005

Quote by Libra+Love

..as you point out, the necklace quote is not attributable to Nelson Mandela..it was spoken by Winnie, his ex wife who had her own agenda and was soon ostracised by Mandela and his polictical organisations. Although it is difficult to justify any kind of terrorism which has a murderous objective..I think it is useful to remember the post war political situation in South Africa and the lack of democracy & opportunities that existed for its indigenous population.

You're right, change was needed.
But t's how change anywhere is achieved that troubles me. I don't believe the end justifies the means.
..I have to agree Jen and try to live my life with that motivation. But there have been many times in history though, where the act of terrorists has justified the means (in the eyes of the terrorist)..the latest example being the train bombing in Madrid which very quickly resulted in a change of government..and the withdrawal of Spanish troops from Iraq..the previous government had been one of the few loyal supporters of Blair & Bush.

8 Jul 2005

Quote by Libra+Love
But t's how change anywhere is achieved that troubles me. I don't believe the end justifies the means.

Sometimes we need to look at the greater good, otherwise nothing changes and we stand back whilst 100's of 1000's of people suffer. No matter how small the casualites, it can't be helped but feel for the innocent. The choice is never an easy one, but is it right for 1000 to die to save 100,000 or do we let the 100,000 die?
Would it not have been for the greater good if 1000 had died to stop the horrific acts of genocide in Rwanda. It can be hard to see the justification in any death when action is taken. But we must remind ourselves of the level of deaths that can happen when we do nothing.

8 Jul 2005

Quote by PoloLady
.... in a now, 'democratic' South Africa..as bad as things appear to be, at least everyone has a legal right to vote

and get shot, tortured or have their house dulldozed if they vote/could have voted the wrong way!
Yes I did mean the conventional DIY lol

... I was actually referring to the Republic of South Africa, rather than Southern Africa, which would include Zimbabwe where the 'relocation' atrocities are happening smile

8 Jul 2005

The last thing I wish to add to this debate, is that it has been really nice seeing some very well written, intelligent posts on all sides. OK, we may not agree with each other 100%, but it has shown different sides to people you would not normally see on SH. I enjoyed it, it made me think while writing and it made me think when reading what others had written.
And it didn't degenerate into a mess. It wasn't flippant and was something completely different.
I'm off for the weekend, but I reckon I'll be online at some points... I'd go mad if I was deprived of my SH fix.

8 Jul 2005

Quote by alspals

..as you point out, the necklace quote is not attributable to Nelson Mandela..it was spoken by Winnie, his ex wife who had her own agenda and was soon ostracised by Mandela and his polictical organisations. Although it is difficult to justify any kind of terrorism which has a murderous objective..I think it is useful to remember the post war political situation in South Africa and the lack of democracy & opportunities that existed for its indigenous population.

You're right, change was needed.
But t's how change anywhere is achieved that troubles me. I don't believe the end justifies the means.
..I have to agree Jen and try to live my life with that motivation. But there have been many times in history though, where the act of terrorists has justified the means (in the eyes of the terrorist)..the latest example being the train bombing in Madrid which very quickly resulted in a change of government..and the withdrawal of Spanish troops from Iraq..the previous government had been one of the few loyal supporters of Blair & Bush.
Guess thats an option if you want to be dictated to by terrorists but doesn't help the rest of the world who are trying to build global co-operation against such acts. In the end, we can only hope that global pressure will eventually force such extremists to refrain. In the meantime, lets hope our tolerance can rise above the provocation from some who have nothing but contempt for the country that provides for them and the people they live with !

8 Jul 2005

I posted this in the poetry thread, but believe it has a place here too.....
Bob Dylan - With God on Our Side
Oh my name it is nothinâ€™
My age it means less
The country I come from
Is called the midwest
Itâ€™s taught and brought up there
The laws to abide
And that land that I live in
Has God on itâ€™s side.
Oh the history books tell it
They tell it so well
The cavalries charged
The indians fell
The cavalries charged
The indians died
Oh the country was young
With God on itâ€™s side.
Oh the spanish-american
War had itâ€™s day
And the civil war too
Was soon laid away
And the names of the heroes
Iâ€™s made to memorize
With guns in their hands
And God on their side.
Oh the first world war, boys
It closed out itâ€™s fate
The reason for fighting
I never got straight
But I learned to accept it
Accept it with pride
For you donâ€™t count the dead
When godâ€™s on your side.
When the second world war
Came to an end
We forgave the germans
And we were friends
Though they murdered six million
In the ovens they fried
The germans now too
Have God on their side.
Iâ€™ve learned to hate russians
All through my whole life
If another war starts
Itâ€™s them we must fight
To hate them and fear them
To run and to hide
And accept it all bravely
With God on my side.
But now we got weapons
Of the chemical dust
If fire them weâ€™re forced to
Then fire them we must
One push of the button
And a shot the world wide
And you never ask questions
When godâ€™s on your side.
In a many dark hour
Iâ€™ve been thinkinâ€™ about this
That jesus christ
Was betrayed by a kiss
But I canâ€™t think for you
Youâ€™ll have to decide
Whether judas iscariot
Had God on his side.
So now as Iâ€™m leavinâ€™
Iâ€™m weary as hell
The confusion Iâ€™m feelinâ€™
Ainâ€™t no tongue can tell
The words fill my head
And fall to the floor
If godâ€™s on our side
Heâ€™ll stop the next war.
Jen - Not religious, spiritual.

8 Jul 2005

Quote by longhandle8

..as you point out, the necklace quote is not attributable to Nelson Mandela..it was spoken by Winnie, his ex wife who had her own agenda and was soon ostracised by Mandela and his polictical organisations. Although it is difficult to justify any kind of terrorism which has a murderous objective..I think it is useful to remember the post war political situation in South Africa and the lack of democracy & opportunities that existed for its indigenous population.

You're right, change was needed.
But t's how change anywhere is achieved that troubles me. I don't believe the end justifies the means.
..I have to agree Jen and try to live my life with that motivation. But there have been many times in history though, where the act of terrorists has justified the means (in the eyes of the terrorist)..the latest example being the train bombing in Madrid which very quickly resulted in a change of government..and the withdrawal of Spanish troops from Iraq..the previous government had been one of the few loyal supporters of Blair & Bush.
Guess thats an option if you want to be dictated to by terrorists but doesn't help the rest of the world who are trying to build global co-operation against such acts. In the end, we can only hope that global pressure will eventually force such extremists to refrain. In the meantime, lets hope our tolerance can rise above the provocation from some who have nothing but contempt for the country that provides for them and the people they live with !
..hope you don't think I'm supporting terrorism Longhandle...I was simply pointing out how, in the eyes of a terrorist, they can see their actions justifying the means..the Madrid bombing being a case in point.

8 Jul 2005

Quote by Scandal
I'd go mad if I was deprived of my SH fix.

Extremist nutter! biggrin

Lilley livered fucking liberal!
smile

I agree with you postie, I thank you all for contributing with reason and intelligence, thanks for teaching me a few things about the world, thanks for listening and above all thanks for not getting personal and thanks to the mods for letting us get on with it. (well y'know, mostly wink

)
:thumbup: all round I think!
Chris

8 Jul 2005

Quote by alspals

..as you point out, the necklace quote is not attributable to Nelson Mandela..it was spoken by Winnie, his ex wife who had her own agenda and was soon ostracised by Mandela and his polictical organisations. Although it is difficult to justify any kind of terrorism which has a murderous objective..I think it is useful to remember the post war political situation in South Africa and the lack of democracy & opportunities that existed for its indigenous population.

You're right, change was needed.
But t's how change anywhere is achieved that troubles me. I don't believe the end justifies the means.
..I have to agree Jen and try to live my life with that motivation. But there have been many times in history though, where the act of terrorists has justified the means (in the eyes of the terrorist)..the latest example being the train bombing in Madrid which very quickly resulted in a change of government..and the withdrawal of Spanish troops from Iraq..the previous government had been one of the few loyal supporters of Blair & Bush.
Guess thats an option if you want to be dictated to by terrorists but doesn't help the rest of the world who are trying to build global co-operation against such acts. In the end, we can only hope that global pressure will eventually force such extremists to refrain. In the meantime, lets hope our tolerance can rise above the provocation from some who have nothing but contempt for the country that provides for them and the people they live with !
..hope you don't think I'm supporting terrorism Longhandle...I was simply pointing out how, in the eyes of a terrorist, they can see their actions justifying the means..the Madrid bombing being a case in point.
Of course not, it's a relevant point, I'm merely reinforcing that you are obviously open to all kinds of blackmail if you give in to such threats. Think we're all on the same page in terms of reason but I do worry as to how we can identify the good people from bad, given our liberal attitude over here. Doesn't seem right that we look after people who obviously delight in promoting and celebrating the killing of people and in the name of religion - beyond my understanding of human consideration i'm afraid.

8 Jul 2005

At the end of the day :
One side has one view and the other side has a different view...
Our problem lies in the fact that the leaders of both will never sit across a table and discuss things said in this forum or anywhere else!
The leaders on all sides seem only to want to remain in control of what their people do.
Are we living in a place called "Animal Farm" in the year "1984"...
Have we forgotten the golden rule "He who controls the most gold - maketh the rules"
And the rest of us are FREE to winge and moan and debate and scorn and gripe etc. to our hearts content.....
But can any of us really ring bin laden or bush and ask them over to tea to sort it all out?
So for me ....... well I'm just going to continue to believe that all men (and women) are equal -- regardless of whom or what they believe in....... and that the vast majority of peoples of this world just want to get along!......... and sometimes we of all sides have to put up with some crap from extremists of all sides..... but that if we can accept that and still hold true to our own beliefs in a united world.... then maybe one day - we will be!

8 Jul 2005

Quote by Scandal
We can all relax now, everything will be alright.
Just announced on the wireless the Queen has just sent a defiant message to the terrorists.
I'm glad that woman earns her money - bless.

LOL - "Wireless"... you're beginning to sound like my father! Obviously a Liverpudlian thing :!: wink

8 Jul 2005

Can anyone explain why the Iraq war was illegal? - serious question not a bait.

8 Jul 2005

Quote by AndyS-NE
Can anyone explain why the Iraq war was illegal? - serious question not a bait.

I thinks because they didn't say "Please"...before they invaded!! lol

8 Jul 2005

Quote by Scandal
lets hope our tolerance can rise above the provocation

The provocation is two way LongHandle - 30 000 troops illegally occupying Iraq, carpet bombing, torturing, stealing oil and invading religeous places - whatever way anyone justifies invading Iraq - is provocation and for every force there is an equal and oppsoite force. Ditto Palestine - it's viewed as occupied land.
Well, if you think it's acceptable and honourable to plan to slaughter innocent people, that's your choice. There's a differenece between planning to slaughter innocents as against a war on those capable and willing to fight back.

Quote by longhandle8
some who have nothing but contempt for the country that provides for them and the people they live with !

How do you know that? You're implying they are somehow getting something for nothing, the perpertrators could just as likely be passport holding, taxpaying indigenous people.
Exactly my point, even worse if they are ! If we are meant to show consideration for other faiths, they shouldn't openly denigrate other cultures to the point of hatred.

Quote by longhandle8
Doesn't seem right that we look after people who obviously delight in promoting and celebrating the killing of people and in the name of religion

If you just view this, 9/11 and Madrid as religeous inspired activities I think you miss a point. These are political acts - in the eyes of the perpertrators there is somewhere a valid reason for it, they have an agenda and demands - not just based in the afterlife. Unless there are attempts to try and understand their motivation then there will never be a peacefull settlement. Although terrorists are a minority there will be millions who sympathise with their grievances and resistance like that can never be crushed into the dirt. If the G8 were really serious about wanting a peacefull Middle East then they would have tried to address those grievances years ago - it's just far too convenient to use a wide brush and paint the whole region as lands inhabitated by nutters and terrorists. Remember in Ireland very few people joined the IRA but whole generations of people sympathised with Republican grievances untill some kind of peacefull political settlement was attempted.
Never said that, my point is specifically related to this incident but if you think it's morally right to celebrate the deaths of anyone like they do then that's your choice again. Yes, you can argue the moral decision of our actions against other countries but the decisions are taken with global agreement. We only try to target military sites and dont rejoice in civilian deaths. Whatever your beliefs, you should always try to show some consideration for fellow human beings.

8 Jul 2005

My responses in previous thread are in bold if it's not obvious - apologies, got mixed within thread rolleyes

8 Jul 2005

the Sick Text Messages jokes have reached my phone already... some people have got no morals!!!.
i was shocked when i read the news paper late on last night... i have numerosly made trips from Euston to Liverpool street, and it sort of opened my eyes
My heart goes out to all those familiys and people who have been injured.
x
Jiggle

8 Jul 2005

Quote by AndyS-NE
Can anyone explain why the Iraq war was illegal? - serious question not a bait.

The Iraq war is deemed illegal by its opponents because the western armies fighting it did not do so with a clear mandate from ALL of the United Nations members. France abstained if you remember and because of that a unanimous mandate was not acheived.

8 Jul 2005

Quote by AndyS-NE
Can anyone explain why the Iraq war was illegal? - serious question not a bait.

A sovereign nation cannot invade another sovereign nation under United Nation rules. Unless the Security Council of the UN agrees. As the SC didn't think it was justified to invade Iraq, and a lot of other nations also disagreed, most notably France and Germany, (rememebr the Cheese eating surrender monkeys jibe?) the invasion, war and occupation of Iraq is illegal in international law. The whole point of the United Nations being set up after the second world war, was so no nation (including us and the Americans) could invade another through military might for any reason, especially a war of conquest.
Blair and Bush could theoretically be tried for war crimes. Except they wont sign up to that part of the charter, no surprise.
This is only a rough outline, and I may be mistaken on the detail, but thats pretty much it.
Besides, even if it wasn't illegal, it is certainly immoral.... as most wars are.

8 Jul 2005

Quote by alspals

..as you point out, the necklace quote is not attributable to Nelson Mandela..it was spoken by Winnie, his ex wife who had her own agenda and was soon ostracised by Mandela and his polictical organisations. Although it is difficult to justify any kind of terrorism which has a murderous objective..I think it is useful to remember the post war political situation in South Africa and the lack of democracy & opportunities that existed for its indigenous population.

You're right, change was needed.
But t's how change anywhere is achieved that troubles me. I don't believe the end justifies the means.
..I have to agree Jen and try to live my life with that motivation. But there have been many times in history though, where the act of terrorists has justified the means (in the eyes of the terrorist)..the latest example being the train bombing in Madrid which very quickly resulted in a change of government..and the withdrawal of Spanish troops from Iraq..the previous government had been one of the few loyal supporters of Blair & Bush.
i knew that someone would get round to bringing up the madrid bombing and the change of government.... and you are right (sort of!), oneindirectly led to the other
yes.. a lot of the spanish people were very much against the war and the fact they had troops out there in iraq but remember that the spanish government tried to make political capital out of what happen by 1) not talking to any of the other spanish parites like blair has done with howard and kennedy and 2) they tried to blame ETA for there own political purpose and gain...
that is what the spanish people saw and that is some of the reason why that government were voted out... they lost the trust of a nation....

8 Jul 2005

Quote by postie
Can anyone explain why the Iraq war was illegal? - serious question not a bait.

A sovereign nation cannot invade another sovereign nation under United Nation rules. Unless the Security Council of the UN agrees. As the SC didn't think it was justified to invade Iraq, and a lot of other nations also disagreed, most notably France and Germany, (rememebr the Cheese eating surrender monkeys jibe?) the invasion, war and occupation of Iraq is illegal in international law. The whole point of the United Nations being set up after the second world war, was so no nation (including us and the Americans) could invade another through military might for any reason, especially a war of conquest.
Blair and Bush could theoretically be tried for war crimes. Except they wont sign up to that part of the charter, no surprise.
This is only a rough outline, and I may be mistaken on the detail, but thats pretty much it.
Besides, even if it wasn't illegal, it is certainly immoral.... as most wars are.
Yeah!!! what he ^^^^ said!!! .......... Postie......... why do you have to be goddam eloquent? .... hehehe

8 Jul 2005

The people who did this are sick fuckers, i feel sick thinking about it,people, real people , people like you and me, londoners are dead for whatever reason. the people who did this act are sick cunts, god help them ,god forgive them, becouse i will never RIP :cry:

9 Jul 2005

This is what was said by Scandal:

Doesn't seem right that we look after people who obviously delight in promoting and celebrating the killing of people and in the name of religion - beyond my understanding of human consideration i'm afraid.

Longhandle, you picked the wrong end of a totally wrong stick there and Scandal is, quite rightly, outraged by you completely changing what he said.
An apology is in order cos you were out of order.
rolleyes

:roll:

9 Jul 2005

And Scandal has made it clear several times that he does not condone the atrocities.
Scandal, I often do not agree with your views on things but you have been wronged here.
Thanks to Jags for clarifying , because I couldn't find the references trawling back.
One of the more heartwarming quotes I heard yesterday was (roughly) this:
"The award of an olympic games is trivial in the face of this . Today we are all Londoners." From the Mayor of Paris.

9 Jul 2005

Whatever peoples opinions are about this subject. It goes without saying that no one on here is in support of terrorism.

9 Jul 2005

has anybody thought that it may not actually be al-qaueida (don't even care if that's spelt right)I was speaking with someone I know last night and he brought up a very relevant point,
Q: who has the most to gain from disrupting the g8 summit?
q:who's death squads have been caught working in britain time and again?
who is currently the worlds most brutal dictator? who has tried to foist the blame for his activities on other organisations/countries before?
who's name said backwards is trebor ebagum??
just a theory :shock: