Discuss away! (split from 'Explosion in London')

30 Jul 2005

Quote by seagull69
da69ve its not about blame its about governments accepting responsibilities for their foreign policies. Its also about moslem governments and their treatment of their own populations which allows individuals to be drawn towards the more radical elements within islam.

Then why didn't you just say that earlier.....up to now its just been about the western policies that has created all this shit.....and how these radical groups wouldn't be doing this if it was for us in the first place.
So do you agree with what I have said here then smile

I still believe western policies have contributed in a major way to the present so called war on terror. I am not sure whether I can include Russia as part of western policy but the western governments do seem to appear to turn a blind eye to the atrocities going on in chechnya.
Go on just say it........everyone is as bad as each other....western or middle eastern.
I do not agree with everything you say though....i still think you have some sympathy for these bombers and their cause even if it's only a little....

30 Jul 2005

Quote by da69ve
da69ve its not about blame its about governments accepting responsibilities for their foreign policies. Its also about moslem governments and their treatment of their own populations which allows individuals to be drawn towards the more radical elements within islam.

Then why didn't you just say that earlier.....up to now its just been about the western policies that has created all this shit.....and how these radical groups wouldn't be doing this if it was for us in the first place.
So do you agree with what I have said here then smile

I still believe western policies have contributed in a major way to the present so called war on terror. I am not sure whether I can include Russia as part of western policy but the western governments do seem to appear to turn a blind eye to the atrocities going on in chechnya.
Go on just say it........everyone is as bad as each other....western or middle eastern.
I do not agree with everything you say though....i still think you have some sympathy for these bombers and their cause even if it's only a little....
I absolutely have no sympathy for these bombers whatsoever. I find the Isalmic religion medieval and would have no wish to live in such a society. What I do have is a an attempt to understand the conditions in which Islamic fundamentalist grow.
I do not support any religion or political idea that supports violence. I believe in peace. If you got to drop bombs make them Love bombs :)

31 Jul 2005

Quote by postie
Oh my! Here we go again.... (but i love it..)
Ice Pie, hopefully I am not "selectively quoting" but you said it was wrong to target civilians... yet it is precisely what WE (our side) have done in the war. I mentioned it further back in this thread that legitmate targets defined by the US/UK include post offices and telecoms buildings (plus many others). Neither are military targets, only strategic but we accept that civilians will die in the bombing runs on these buildings.
So what I (and some other here) are getting at is the hypocrisy of when it happens to our civilians...caught up in a strategic bombing. I don't think anyone here is saying it is ok to target civilians. But the fact is we started this war. And yes, Muslims see an attack on another muslim country by a Christian country as a reason to defend that country. Just as we sided on mainly a hegemonous "western" lines against the muslim world, when 9/11 happened.
Lets not forget that we also bombed Iraq between the Gulf wars too, we had a blockade, and that people died in that. That we mainly side with Israel against the palestinians, that we backed Saddam hussein in his fight against the "Mad Mullahs" of Iran in the Iran/ Iraq war. That Saddam Hussein and the Ba'athist were installed by the American government. That we have a long and bloody history of taking what we want from that region and leaving a trail of death and destruction in our wake.
Lets not be surprised when a a tiny handful of them have had enough and wreck some kind of retribution on us. Instead let's point the finger at who really started this conflict, that has not only torn apart lives in Iraq and Afghanistan, but is now bringing war to these shores too...

Oh I see. So the real target was the trains themselves, not the people who just happened to be travelling on them and got "caught up in a strategic bombing"? How silly of them to travel at such a ridiculous time of day. I mean, how could the poor unfortunate bombers have known there'd be so many civilians around at quarter to nine in the morning?
Can someone please explain to me the strategic importance of a double decker bus?
This idea that an attack on one is an attack on all is a pathetic excuse which conveniently ignores the fact that operations like desert shield and desert storm were in defence of a muslim country. How can siding with one muslim country against another be an attack on all muslims?
If I agreed with you that the deliberate targetting of civilians is justified, I would propose that we should blow up a few mosques, making sure that we hit them at a time when there were the maximum number of people inside. This would be in keeping with the tit-for-tat mentality being displayed here, but somehow I get the feeling that the people expressing their approval of terrorism wouldn't like that.
There's something I need explaining to me: Hypocrisy I understand - this is after all the prime venue for it. I also understand political correctness - it's just another name for cowardice. What I don't understand is why anyone would have so little spine that they not only try to appease terrorists but actually welcome attacks. If you hate yourself that much, why not just commit suicide? dunno

Firstly, let me make this totally clear, as you appear to have missed my point completely Ice Pie... I do NOT think it is ok to target civilians, nor am I siding with terrorists. To say that I am is wrong in the extreme. Everything I have said on here, in this thread is AGAINST any form of aggression from ANY side.
My point isn't to "welcome attacks or appease terrorists" but to try and understand the complete insanity behind a man strapping explosives to his body to go and randomly kill strangers. That there is a history to these bombs in London, a history of colonialisation, explotation and war for profit. Kit was right, the seeds of this conflict go way back... and to say I am "spineless" or a "coward" or should commit suicide, is taking a debate to a point i don't like very much. I never suggested that you with your armchair-warrior attitude should logically join the forces. Ice Pie, just becuse we differ in opinions, doesn't mean i am right, or you are right. We just have different views. You are willing to take sides on this war on Terror, i am not. (unless you believe Bush when he says: "whoever isn't with us is against us....????)
Dave69 said about 9/11 and the war starting then. Firstly, 9/11 happened in America. We are not Americans, but fair point maybe we should side with those attacked. And if the UN says "OK, invade somewhere", then I'd maybe support it. And the UN were bypassed. So we helped start an illegal war as lapdogs for another country. While we are on 9/11, let's bring up the point that of the 20 odd or so hijackers, 19 were Saudi Arabian, not one was Iraqi. No evidence has ever come to light of an Iraqi link. The House of Saud is friendly to the West so no point in attacking that undemocratic country... lets attack a country that had no link whatsoever to 9/11... and BONUS!!!! that fecking country has a shitload of oil underneath it.... well you couldn't make it up , could you?
Afghanistan... Clinton bombed it in the 1990's, way before 9/11. Yes it had an obnoxious regime, but a regime that curtailed the production of heroin. Since we invaded the poppy fields are back in production and the supply of heroin is back to normal. Oh and we are running an oil pipeline right across it.... BONUS!
I hope that clears up where i am coming from... neither pro West and the bullshit we are being fed, nor pro terrorist and the misery that inflicts...
Thanks for that, Postie. It did appear that you were taking sides, that you think we deserve it. As for myself I don't really want to get into the real causes because they are a lot older than you and me. As you say, our opinions differ, I believe to the point of irreconcilability. I'm not going to pretend to be all that interested in the history, or in the claims of either side about who is responsible, all I know is I haven't attacked anyone and I am under attack. It's all very way to say civilians get caught in the crossfire, but we're not in the crossfire, we're the primary target and that's where I'm coming from. We won't change each other's minds and I haven't really anything more to say that hasn't already been said, so I guess that just leaves beer. wink

31 Jul 2005

Quote by Ice Pie
We won't change each other's minds and I haven't really anything more to say that hasn't already been said, so I guess that just leaves beer.

Bloody heck... i'm going to have to agree with you there! (don't tell anyone we are in agreement tho...)
And as for the beer... i think it'll be sometime during the week before i fancy another.... too much at the munch... oh.. and nice skirt you were wearing last night Ice Pie...