Just looking in the steam room and noticed a debate that should maybe have it's own thread.
In the posts, someone said that the foxes only do what is natural to them and people shouldn't harm them......or words to that effect.
In my mind, I can't think of any natural thing left in the uk (except some birds or little furry things running around that are smaller than a hand). Everything else is managed in someway. Either forests or animals.
Management of land will include culling some animals from that area to allow other things to flourish or the local eco-system will be loaded too much with one or the other. The one that springs to mind is the deer park in this area where they know that the land can only hold so many deer, so they cull the excess in Novemeber-ish.
Seems the same will go for foxes. How do you do it humanely? Well hunts are gone, so it seems that it could only be poison (long, slow lingering death), trapping (long, slow lingering death), or shooting. But seeing that most farmers or country folk are not snipers then this results in wounded foxes that experience a long, slow lingering death. Any other ideas how to do it humanely?
Why do people have to kill? Well land husbandry springs to mind. Also prevention of them killing farm animals (chickens or lambs). Is this just an excuse by the farmers or does this really happen?
Anyway, over to you lot to debate it and to leave the steamroom clear.
Dave_Notts
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Foxes: Vermin or fluffy little Basils
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Sex God
I've always said that there cannot be vermin where there arent humans, its humans that turn animals into so called vermin
Sex God
Shooting
A hired gun could do the job quickly ....
A hired gun could do the job quickly ....
Quote by Dave__Notts
Why do people have to kill? Well land husbandry springs to mind. Also prevention of them killing farm animals (chickens or lambs). Is this just an excuse by the farmers or does this really happen?
Oh it happens Dave.... Foxes will break in to a chicken coop and kill every chicken in there and then just take one away...
I realise that they are doing what they are programmed to do naturally but they kill needlessly and cause such havoc....
I dont have an answer with regards to controlling them but I do sympathise with the farmers who have to put up with these vermin...
Quote by Drewxcore
I've always said that there cannot be vermin where there arent humans, its humans that turn animals into so called vermin
That is because humans have long since moved on from searching for nuts on the ground to eat. We now farm in the same place for at least the.......well 8,000 years or so.
But if you wish........we could always go back to hunter/gathering
Dave_Notts
Sex God
Quote by Dave__Notts
That is because humans have long since moved on from searching for nuts on the ground to eat. We now farm in the same place for at least the.......well 8,000 years or so.
But if you wish........we could always go back to hunter/gathering
Dave_Notts
i wouldnt mind going back to that to be honest.
but then again we'd start throwing stones at our own shadows and die of old age and fear at 29
Quote by Drewxcore
That is because humans have long since moved on from searching for nuts on the ground to eat. We now farm in the same place for at least the.......well 8,000 years or so.
But if you wish........we could always go back to hunter/gathering
Dave_Notts
i wouldnt mind going back to that to be honest.
but then again we'd start throwing stones at our own shadows and die of old age and fear at 29
Absolutely, and since I am past 29.......I would be on borrowed time.
Dave_Notts
Sex God
Quote by Dave__Notts
Seems the same will go for foxes. How do you do it humanely? Well hunts are gone , so it seems that it could only be poison (long, slow lingering death), trapping (long, slow lingering death), or shooting. But seeing that most farmers or country folk are not snipers then this results in wounded foxes that experience a long, slow lingering death. Any other ideas how to do it humanely?
Dont be so sure, things happen when noones around
Sex God
Quote by Dave__Notts
That is because humans have long since moved on from searching for nuts on the ground to eat. We now farm in the same place for at least the.......well 8,000 years or so.
But if you wish........we could always go back to hunter/gathering
Dave_Notts
i wouldnt mind going back to that to be honest.
but then again we'd start throwing stones at our own shadows and die of old age and fear at 29
Absolutely, and since I am past 29.......I would be on borrowed time.
Dave_Notts
Borrowed time :shock:
You'd owe a bloody fortune...
Sex God
Quote by Shireen
I dont have an answer with regards to controlling them but I do sympathise with the farmers who have to put up with these vermin...
Vermin? Think about this, there are bllions of humans on the planet, we throw rubbish on the ground, some of us kill for sport, we tear apart lands during wars, we tear down entire forests just so we can have some nice chairs to sit on, were speeding up global warming. What do foxes do? kill a few more chickens than we'd like, big deal.
and we call foxes vermin, i think the human race needs to look in the mirror
Quote by Drewxcore
Seems the same will go for foxes. How do you do it humanely? Well hunts are gone , so it seems that it could only be poison (long, slow lingering death), trapping (long, slow lingering death), or shooting. But seeing that most farmers or country folk are not snipers then this results in wounded foxes that experience a long, slow lingering death. Any other ideas how to do it humanely?
Dont be so sure, things happen when noones around
Tell me about it.............like Mallock taking the "P" when my back is turned about my age.
Ah well......at least the Christmas card list is shorter this year. I'll still give Shireen one though.
Dave_Notts
In edit: Christmas card you dirty lot.......I meant Christmas card
Quote by Drewxcore
and we call foxes vermin, i think the human race needs to look in the mirror
I somehow dont think that all of the human race go around killing needlessly just because it is in our nature Drew
I have seen it from the farmers side and can completely understand why they get so pissed off with foxes... I have seen over 100 chickens killed but only 1 taken.... All because a fox wanted a meal
If it had killed and taken just the one then okay I can live with that but 100 killed just for 1?? :dunno: Quote by Dave__Notts
Tell me about it.............like Mallock taking the "P" when my back is turned about my age.
Ah well......at least the Christmas card list is shorter this year. I'll still give Shireen one though.
Dave_Notts
In edit: Christmas card you dirty lot.......I meant Christmas card
You are hijacking your own thread you daft muppet 
i curtailed the steam room post as initially it was a bit of a 'well, this happened tonight' story and less of a rant. In view of the oppinions that have and will be voiced, perhaps I should have left the details in, because it matters not what other people's oppinions are on this one, I'm furious & my daughter's inconsolable.
The footpath in question is in the middle of the Peak District countryside, imo, fox territory. I take my daughter there to teach her about wildlife, Mother Earth, respect for the land and nature, which trees are which etc... and not to be stopped in the middle of our evening walk with the dog by the sight of a dead fox and spent shotgun cartriges, its back end missing and a hysterical child because someone decided to use it as target practice in its own habitat. It would have been obvious to the shooter that this beautiful creature would have been stumbled upon by a passer-by, and I'm livid that it happened to be my 7 year old daughter. I'm furious that I then had to pick it up, move it, bury it in undergrowth and then try to explain to her that some people do not respect nature and wildlife the way we do, and why someone would needlessly kill a wild animal on its own turf. the problem is, I couldnt explain it, other than to say that sometimes humans are more animalistic in their quest for blood than the wildlife itself.
The footpath in question is in the middle of the Peak District countryside, imo, fox territory. I take my daughter there to teach her about wildlife, Mother Earth, respect for the land and nature, which trees are which etc... and not to be stopped in the middle of our evening walk with the dog by the sight of a dead fox and spent shotgun cartriges, its back end missing and a hysterical child because someone decided to use it as target practice in its own habitat. It would have been obvious to the shooter that this beautiful creature would have been stumbled upon by a passer-by, and I'm livid that it happened to be my 7 year old daughter. I'm furious that I then had to pick it up, move it, bury it in undergrowth and then try to explain to her that some people do not respect nature and wildlife the way we do, and why someone would needlessly kill a wild animal on its own turf. the problem is, I couldnt explain it, other than to say that sometimes humans are more animalistic in their quest for blood than the wildlife itself.
Quote by Drewxcore
I dont have an answer with regards to controlling them but I do sympathise with the farmers who have to put up with these vermin...
.
and we call foxes vermin, i think the human race needs to look in the mirror
Humans have created animal husbandry where the animals have survived extinction. Humans have invented medical advances that helps human and animal kind, hope your op went good as well Drew
. Humans have........well lots of things that have benefitted this world, and also done a lot that hasn't.But their again, mother nature has done a wonderful job over the years to kill off more species of animals before the mammals were even bigger than a wee small furry thing.
Even now, the tundra in Russia spews out more green-house gasses than the industrialised world so mother nature is trying to change the world as well.
Dave_Notts
Sex God
Quote by Dave__Notts
I dont have an answer with regards to controlling them but I do sympathise with the farmers who have to put up with these vermin...
.
and we call foxes vermin, i think the human race needs to look in the mirror
Humans have created animal husbandry where the animals have survived extinction. Humans have invented medical advances that helps human and animal kind, hope your op went good as well Drew
. Humans have........well lots of things that have benefitted this world, and also done a lot that hasn't.But their again, mother nature has done a wonderful job over the years to kill off more species of animals before the mammals were even bigger than a wee small furry thing.
Even now, the tundra in Russia spews out more green-house gasses than the industrialised world so mother nature is trying to change the world as well.
Dave_Notts
Tell his tonyness....
He may reduce my RFL :lol2:
Quote by varca
I understand that they can be a nuisance sometimes but they are acting instinctively and without deliberate malice. Why they kill more than they take away I do not know and I guess only a naturalist who understands animal behaviour can explain that? They seek to provide sustinance for their brood and themselves and it is humans who have curtailed their natural freedom, who have removed the natural hunting ground with their housebuilding and development. What choice do they have but to venture into the urban, human territories?
I do not condone the killing of these beautiful creatures in any way shape or form.
Just my own opinion, to which I am entitled
Perhaps the person who shot the fox was not doing it maliciously. Just doing what is natural and instinctive by defending his chickens, flock, etc. Animals protect their young.......humans can also protect their animal young that they have under their care. Just because they kill, it doesn't mean they enjoy it.
And absolutely, your opinion is valued as much as the next persons........except for Mallock's opinion being valued
Dave_Notts
In the same way that people have moved from the countryside into towns so too have many foxes. The streets around where I live probably have a denser population of foxes than the open countryside.
They are a very common sight in the evening and at night: I have watched a fox work it's way down the road going from house to house checking on the dustbins - our new wheelie bins are very un-fox-friendly; I have seen a fox in my garden pick up a ball and throw it in the air; a couple of years ago my neighbour had an earth in her garden, and a litter of cubs!
They are a very common sight in the evening and at night: I have watched a fox work it's way down the road going from house to house checking on the dustbins - our new wheelie bins are very un-fox-friendly; I have seen a fox in my garden pick up a ball and throw it in the air; a couple of years ago my neighbour had an earth in her garden, and a litter of cubs!
Sex God
Quote by Dave__Notts
Even now, the tundra in Russia spews out more green-house gasses than the industrialised world so mother nature is trying to change the world as well.
Dave_Notts
Hmmmmm according to what I have read and watched and listened too the perma frost is no longer perma frost not due to mother nature but due to global warming caused by us. Yes its spewing out lots of green house gas but its cus the influence we have already had is melting it. Many experts now think that due to this green mesaures are a waste of time as we have already done the damage.
Quote by tweeky
Even now, the tundra in Russia spews out more green-house gasses than the industrialised world so mother nature is trying to change the world as well.
Dave_Notts
Hmmmmm according to what I have read and watched and listened too the perma frost is no longer perma frost not due to mother nature but due to global warming caused by us. Yes its spewing out lots of green house gas but its cus the influence we have already had is melting it. Many experts now think that due to this green mesaures are a waste of time as we have already done the damage.
This is the chicken and egg scenario.
Was it mans influence over the past 200 years of industrialisation? Or is it just a natural cycle of events. This world has gone through global warming and ice age a number of times. The antartic used to be a jungle. Now it is a cold wasteland. Mans influence or natural selection?
Dave_Notts
I live in a town so the only chickens I see come in a nugget shape and lamb is usually covered in a curry sauce.
I have a couple of urban foxes who regularly sunbathe in my garden and I'm always pleased to see them as I am any other wildlife that comes my way.
I am puzzled though by the strange set of values that people have over animal behaviour. Foxes kill seemingly for the pleasure of it and this is bad (apparently). However many of us keep a psychotic pet. The Cat. A cat will torture its prey, it will play with them until it is bored and then and only then it will kill them. A cat is a ruthless killing machine that has devastated urban wildlife. Yet we keep them as pets for our pleasure.
Where have the sparrows gone? And the finches, tits and all the other wildbirds? The cats got them not for food but for the shear pleasure of killing.
I have a couple of urban foxes who regularly sunbathe in my garden and I'm always pleased to see them as I am any other wildlife that comes my way.
I am puzzled though by the strange set of values that people have over animal behaviour. Foxes kill seemingly for the pleasure of it and this is bad (apparently). However many of us keep a psychotic pet. The Cat. A cat will torture its prey, it will play with them until it is bored and then and only then it will kill them. A cat is a ruthless killing machine that has devastated urban wildlife. Yet we keep them as pets for our pleasure.
Where have the sparrows gone? And the finches, tits and all the other wildbirds? The cats got them not for food but for the shear pleasure of killing.
Humans have been working the land for its own ends for century’s, and we will carry on doing so. Mother nature has been doing for millions of years and I think shes better at then we are or will ever be.
She has a way of balancing the system to keep the land/animals/environment in check and no one thing will be on top for long, life finds another way to adapt and change. Humans have grown and spread into habitats that belong to other animals, the animals have taken advantage of that and in the case of fox’s bins are easier targets than trying to work out/dig under fence to get to chickens.
If fox’s are left alone and nothing done they will breed and spread (along with the diseases they carry) as they don’t have a natural enemy any more, for year’s humans hunted them and that has controlled the population.
DARKFIRE: in the case of your daughter seeing that was yes wrong, but what would the difference be if same fox was killed by its only natural predator the Golden Eagle ( yeah I know we not likely to see one) that would not careless where it was left or what state it was in when it had finished feeding. The only thing I can say is it’s a good teaching lesson, but lets be honest we live in a civilized world. Out in the jungle or safari its kill or be killed they don’t think about the environment or how its parents might feel, its where’s my next meal coming from and how to protect myself from getting killed.
Life cycle will always go on and we will adapt and they will adapt, trying to protect animals like foxes will have just as much damage as if we decided to eradicate them all together because you break the food chain.
She has a way of balancing the system to keep the land/animals/environment in check and no one thing will be on top for long, life finds another way to adapt and change. Humans have grown and spread into habitats that belong to other animals, the animals have taken advantage of that and in the case of fox’s bins are easier targets than trying to work out/dig under fence to get to chickens.
If fox’s are left alone and nothing done they will breed and spread (along with the diseases they carry) as they don’t have a natural enemy any more, for year’s humans hunted them and that has controlled the population.
DARKFIRE: in the case of your daughter seeing that was yes wrong, but what would the difference be if same fox was killed by its only natural predator the Golden Eagle ( yeah I know we not likely to see one) that would not careless where it was left or what state it was in when it had finished feeding. The only thing I can say is it’s a good teaching lesson, but lets be honest we live in a civilized world. Out in the jungle or safari its kill or be killed they don’t think about the environment or how its parents might feel, its where’s my next meal coming from and how to protect myself from getting killed.
Life cycle will always go on and we will adapt and they will adapt, trying to protect animals like foxes will have just as much damage as if we decided to eradicate them all together because you break the food chain.
Sex God
Quote by keeno
Where have the sparrows gone? And the finches, tits and all the other wildbirds? The cats got them not for food but for the shear pleasure of killing.
Plenty of cats round here (not ours either
) and we have a good helping of birds many of who use our garden and our Cherry tree... I have sympathy for farmers and people with chickens and ducks etc.
Whilst I think foxes are cute and lovely etc etc I am also a realist.
You don't have to be a sniper to shoot a fox. My boss was telling me several weeks ago about a friend of his who manages a very large farm and how he shot 12 foxes in one week.
Although my instant feeling was "Oh my God how horrible!" the fact he shot the foxes was preferable to poisoning or trapping or worse still hunting them for fun.
Whilst I think foxes are cute and lovely etc etc I am also a realist.
You don't have to be a sniper to shoot a fox. My boss was telling me several weeks ago about a friend of his who manages a very large farm and how he shot 12 foxes in one week.
Although my instant feeling was "Oh my God how horrible!" the fact he shot the foxes was preferable to poisoning or trapping or worse still hunting them for fun.
