How would you decide?

12 Apr 2007

Quote by Kiss
I do see your point WBB but they could have opted just to freeze her eggs. He gave his consent for the eggs fertilzed with him sperm, too late to change his mind.

Perhaps the eggs were fertilized before storage thinking that there may be an extreme chance that he may one day become infertile dunno

And if one day he felt that the time had come to start a family and was infertile could he say "Hey.......I got some fertilised eggs stored from when I was with my ex.....Lets use those" :dunno:

12 Apr 2007

just to say i am not going to post in this thread any more, not because i have a problem with anyone else view or any of the posters, but its something i feel VERY strongly about and find it hard to discuss it without getting a bit anoyed.
wbb
xx

12 Apr 2007

Ive read most of the posts on this thread and all i can add is that i felt sooo sorry for Nathalie, she looked just devastated. She has another partner now who has said he would bring up the baby as his own. I can see the point of her ex i suppose, but as a mum of four, my heart really went out to Nathalie. I hope she manages to adopt or could she maybe find an egg donor??
Suze xx

12 Apr 2007

Quote by well_busty_babe
In my opinion he signed away his rights to withdraw when the embryo was created.
:

but thats what this all centers on, he never.
As it says wbb, my opinion just!

Quote by well_busty_babe
it is not his fault that she is unable to bear children, had he not have existed she would still not have been able to bear children. this man had the option of giving her a chance to have children admitedly, but he is not obliged to do so! i will recall my previous example of we can all offer to donate parts of ourselves to help others, but how many of us actually do so?!:

Exactly, but he did in effect donate his sperm, which then fertilized her eggs. Her cancer is not his fault, but he knew he was fertilizing her only eggs prior to her treatment.

Quote by well_busty_babe
all the people who believe that he is being selfish not fathering a child for her, should you not feel the same way about every other childish person?
if he is wrong for not becoming a father for her sake, then are we all not wrong for not donating our eggs and sperm to other infertile people?
why can we not afford this man the same respect for his choice?

The difference being here, as apposed to anyone else donating through choice, is that he did choose to donate his sperm to be fertilized with her eggs, hence making an embryo, not two seperate containers but making one out of two - in a body that does result in pregnancy. As you say, you would not donate eggs, but he did give his sperm freely to be joined with this womans eggs!
As i stated before, thats my opinion not the law or anything else, just mine wink

12 Apr 2007

Quote by well_busty_babe
when she had the embryos fertilised it was done as embryoes because of problems with freezing just eggs. he did not have the embryos frozen because he agreed to have children there and then, he did it because it was the only way that they could keep the options open.
it all boils down to the fact that HAD they said to him " have this done and then you have no choice in what heppens" and had he gone ahead, then he would have had no right of argument,
but to say to someone " have this done to keep your options open, you can change your mind at ANY TIME ( as they DID tell him)" and then when he does change his mind as he was told he could, to tell him its too late, well that would have been to trick him into it!
i can never see any justification for forcing someone into parent hood, and thats what we would have been doing to him.
had a man tried to force a woman to have a child against her will i would have had the same amount of indignity on her behalf too.

Freezing eggs does happen and does work. Mrs Kiss was offered the opportunity before she started chemo.
Anyway I digress, this woman is so desperate for her own child she has told her ex that she expects absolutely nothing from him.
He may have been 'forced' in some way to become a parent, but at the same time he is forcing her into a situation where she will never have her own child.

12 Apr 2007

Quote by Kiss
when she had the embryos fertilised it was done as embryoes because of problems with freezing just eggs. he did not have the embryos frozen because he agreed to have children there and then, he did it because it was the only way that they could keep the options open.
it all boils down to the fact that HAD they said to him " have this done and then you have no choice in what heppens" and had he gone ahead, then he would have had no right of argument,
but to say to someone " have this done to keep your options open, you can change your mind at ANY TIME ( as they DID tell him)" and then when he does change his mind as he was told he could, to tell him its too late, well that would have been to trick him into it!
i can never see any justification for forcing someone into parent hood, and thats what we would have been doing to him.
had a man tried to force a woman to have a child against her will i would have had the same amount of indignity on her behalf too.

Freezing eggs does happen and does work. Mrs Kiss was offered the opportunity before she started chemo.
Anyway I digress, this woman is so desperate for her own child she has told her ex that she expects absolutely nothing from him.
He may have been 'forced' in some way to become a parent, but at the same time he is forcing her into a situation where she will never have her own child.
this really is the last time i am replying, someone pleaelock me out of this thread! lol lol

with regards to the eggs being frozen, over 5 years ago, when she was having this done, freezing eggs alone COULD be done, but there was a very low possibility of it working, something to do with the eggs exploding, the possibility of emryos working was much higher. freezing eggs alone was not as widely offered.
but for the other point, she might not expect anything from him, but that fact is that he would have a child out there, it is not for her to decide if it costs him anything- maybe not in monetary terms but emotionally. he may be a person who could not bear to have a child walking the earth whom he does not have a relationship with, niether may he be able to bear having a child with THIS woman. none of us can judge his motives for not wanting to father a child with her, i for one hope they are genuine, as spite is a nasty thing, but regardless of what they may be, he is entitled to decide if he becomes a father or not. like i said before, she agreed that he could change his mind at any point, yet she still went ahead. she knew it was not a garuntee, its very sad that its not worked out how she would have liked, but when you make a bet, you dont always win.
i feel very sad that this man has had to justify evrything, i myself have been in a realtionship in the past where we planned to have children in the future. i am no longer with the man now, and if he turned up at my door demanding i have a child with him because i agreed to in the past, i would run him from my door!
he is not forcing her not to have a child, he is just not enabling it, it is two totally different things. like i have said, on a day to day baysis - we ALL have things were we would if we wanted make things better for someone else, often we choose not to do so. he has done this on this occasion.
let those without sin cast the first stone etc etc

12 Apr 2007

WBB I'm not trying to say you or anyone else is wrong, I'm giving my emotional opinion.
I stand by my original opinion but I also fully respect anyone elses thoughts on the matter.

12 Apr 2007

Quote by Kiss
WBB I'm not trying to say you or anyone else is wrong, I'm giving my emotional opinion.
I stand by my original opinion but I also fully respect anyone elses thoughts on the matter.

never thought for a min you were hun. its a very emotional subject wich is why we all feel so strongly. the thing with this is that all any of us can do is give our own opionion becuase i guess there is no right or wrong is there.
i just did not want to keep posting because this is something quiote close to my heart and i dont want to get myself too worked up about it, its not that i have an issue with you or anyone else o this thread.

12 Apr 2007

Quote by well_busty_babe
let those without sin cast the first stone etc etc

What has that got to do with people voicing an opinion? confused

12 Apr 2007

Quote by Juniper_couple
let those without sin cast the first stone etc etc

What has that got to do with people voicing an opinion? confused

errrr if you read the whole of that parragraph, not just the bit you have picked out you will see i was saying that WE ALL HAVE OPERTUNITY TO DO SELFLESS THINGS FOR OTHER PEOPLE YET THE MAJORITY OF THE TIME WE CHOSE NOT TO DO SO!
hence how can we judge him for not doing something for her?
meaning, only people who would always put other people first could look down on him for not doing so.
and i never said it was anything to do with an opinion!
that ok?

12 Apr 2007

Quote by well_busty_babe
he would have a child out there, it is not for her to decide if it costs him anything- maybe not in monetary terms but emotionally. he may be a person who could not bear to have a child walking the earth whom he does not have a relationship with

But that works both ways though. Why should he be allowed to decide that she can not have the chance to have HER child?
What about HER need to spend the rest of her life wanting a child? Feeling like she is missing out or not complete because for some, that is how they feel!

12 Apr 2007

Quote by Dawnie
he would have a child out there, it is not for her to decide if it costs him anything- maybe not in monetary terms but emotionally. he may be a person who could not bear to have a child walking the earth whom he does not have a relationship with

But that works both ways though. Why should he be allowed to decide that she can not have the chance to have HER child?
What about HER need to spend the rest of her life wanting a child? Feeling like she is missing out or not complete because for some, that is how they feel!
i really am not going to be allowed to keep out of this thread am i! lol
she may have a need to have a child, and its very sad that she will be unable to go ahead and have one. but it is not his fault that she is infertile, her wish for a child should not be allowed to remover his human rights to not have one.

12 Apr 2007

Quote by well_busty_babe
he would have a child out there, it is not for her to decide if it costs him anything- maybe not in monetary terms but emotionally. he may be a person who could not bear to have a child walking the earth whom he does not have a relationship with

But that works both ways though. Why should he be allowed to decide that she can not have the chance to have HER child?
What about HER need to spend the rest of her life wanting a child? Feeling like she is missing out or not complete because for some, that is how they feel!
i really am not going to be allowed to keep out of this thread am i! lol
she may have a need to have a child, and its very sad that she will be unable to go ahead and have one. but it is not his fault that she is infertile, her wish for a child should not be allowed to remover his human rights to not have one.
Look, its this thread or the sodding quiz :lol2:
It isn't either persons fault that she is infertile. Its rarely anyones fault!
He is removing her human rights by refusing to let her use the embryos that are as much hers as they are his.
I honestly think he is being a bastard by not allowing her to attempt to use these embryos. The chance of them working is very low but it is her only chance sad

12 Apr 2007

Quote by well_busty_babe
let those without sin cast the first stone etc etc

What has that got to do with people voicing an opinion? confused

errrr if you read the whole of that parragraph, not just the bit you have picked out you will see i was saying that WE ALL HAVE OPERTUNITY TO DO SELFLESS THINGS FOR OTHER PEOPLE YET THE MAJORITY OF THE TIME WE CHOSE NOT TO DO SO!
hence how can we judge him for not doing something for her?
meaning, only people who would always put other people first could look down on him for not doing so.
and i never said it was anything to do with an opinion!
that ok?
WBB i'm not trying to upset you, just asking a question - I did read all of your post and that is why i asked the above question as it did not make sense to me.
I now understand it is to do with judging, is not our opinions on lots of things judging? That is human nature !!
As to;
meaning, only people who would always put other people first could look down on him for not doing so.
Not really, everyone is entitled to an opinion, be it judging or not.

12 Apr 2007

Quote by Dawnie
he would have a child out there, it is not for her to decide if it costs him anything- maybe not in monetary terms but emotionally. he may be a person who could not bear to have a child walking the earth whom he does not have a relationship with

But that works both ways though. Why should he be allowed to decide that she can not have the chance to have HER child?
What about HER need to spend the rest of her life wanting a child? Feeling like she is missing out or not complete because for some, that is how they feel!
i really am not going to be allowed to keep out of this thread am i! lol
she may have a need to have a child, and its very sad that she will be unable to go ahead and have one. but it is not his fault that she is infertile, her wish for a child should not be allowed to remover his human rights to not have one.
Look, its this thread or the sodding quiz :lol2:
It isn't either persons fault that she is infertile. Its rarely anyones fault!
He is removing her human rights by refusing to let her use the embryos that are as much hers as they are his.
I honestly think he is being a bastard by not allowing her to attempt to use these embryos. The chance of them working is very low but it is her only chance sad

i know its her only chance, thats why i feel desperatley sorry for her. but there are lots of people who are unable to have children or at least go through the process of giving birth to them and carrying them. If we all decided to donate our eggs these people may have the chance to do that, but most of us choose not to. i feel that makes all of us as selfish as he is in this case. i feel that its very important that she agreed to do it knowing he could pull out at any time. how morally wrong would it be for us to say to him "yeah, we know you have the right not to do it, but we are ignoring you and making you a father anyway because its her only chance". if we allowed him to be made a father against his will, where would it stop? what else could we force people to do in the name of "fairness or sympathy"? the only thing i think he is gulity of is maybe getting her hopes up wrongly, and if he IS motivated by spite, then he has to live with that, and it wont sit comfotably on his concience. if i had to choose a right, it would be the right of choice not to have a child over the right to have a child.

12 Apr 2007

Why didn't she use an anonymous sperm donor?
Be careful before you answer with anything like:
Because there were a couple...
Because she wanted kids with him...
As this means she is changing the terms of the contract by now wanting to do it on her own.
You could also answer with something like:
How was she to know what the relationship would be between them in the future...
But doesn't that apply to him too?
He is only exercising the rights of the contract as it stands.
I wonder what she would have said if he got in there first and said he wanted to claim the eggs to be implanted in his new partner?

12 Apr 2007

Quote by Mallock2006
And if one day he felt that the time had come to start a family and was infertile could he say "Hey.......I got some fertilised eggs stored from when I was with my ex.....Lets use those"

Quote by PoloLady
I wonder what she would have said if he got in there first and said he wanted to claim the eggs to be implanted in his new partner?

:shock:
We agree on something .....
*Puts a mark on the calendar* ;-)

12 Apr 2007

I have been cosidering donating my eggs, and its something i will do when i have completly decided that my family is complete. At the moment i feel my family is complete BUT at 26 i feel a little too young to be making that decision, however i am aware i will need to decide in the next few years as otherwise my eggs will be "too old" to donate.
I agree that at the time of treatment the lady had little or no choice but to freeze embryo's, as the egg freezing process offered little or no chance of resulting in a normal healthy pregnancy (5% i believe - but feel free to correct me, i think its something to do with ice crystals forming in the egg which damaged its chances of fertilising and implanting).
I also feel that the man in question DID give his consent, IF there was any chance of him changing his mind then the couple should have chosen to fertilise some with his sperm and some with donor sperm so that she would still be able to have her own biological children. However the fact remains i do not think anyone should be forced into parenthood, BUT he did choose to become a parent of sorts. Many couples only ever get as far as being parents of an embryo during IVF and they mourn the loss of each embryo as if they would any child, this is why this subject is so emotive.

12 Apr 2007

I like it when you have your psycho babble head on lol

Quote by PoloLady
Why didn't she use an anonymous sperm donor?
Be careful before you answer with anything like:
Because there were a couple...
Because she wanted kids with him...
As this means she is changing the terms of the contract by now wanting to do it on her own.?

Surely that would be a mutual decision? Just like when you become a single parent, usually thats not what was anticipated but does happen and does work.
She did say that he could have a part or walk away altogether from responsiblility if a child were to happen.

Quote by PoloLady
I wonder what she would have said if he got in there first and said he wanted to claim the eggs to be implanted in his new partner?

Ahhhh my opinion, a fight over the eggs, they would have to be split if they both wanted to use it, but it could be argued that if it is for another woman using his sperm, he could use any donor as he still has viable sperm to use (that is for a biological child). wink

12 Apr 2007

Quote by Juniper_couple
Ahhhh my opinion, a fight over the eggs, they would have to be split if they both wanted to use it, but it could be argued that if it is for another woman using his sperm, he could use any donor as he still has viable sperm to use (that is for a biological child).

I don't deny as it stands he has more options - but - he has as much right to the fertilised eggs as she does.

12 Apr 2007

Quote by Juniper_couple
I like it when you have your psycho babble head on
Why didn't she use an anonymous sperm donor?
Be careful before you answer with anything like:
Because there were a couple...
Because she wanted kids with him...
As this means she is changing the terms of the contract by now wanting to do it on her own.?

Surely that would be a mutual decision?
And there you have it - she decided, as part of that decision, to place all her eggs in one basket (pardon the pun) and only use his sperm and enter into an agreement that if 'they' chose to use them in the future.

12 Apr 2007

Quote by PoloLady

Ahhhh my opinion, a fight over the eggs, they would have to be split if they both wanted to use it, but it could be argued that if it is for another woman using his sperm, he could use any donor as he still has viable sperm to use (that is for a biological child).

I don't deny as it stands he has more options - but - he has as much right to the fertilised eggs as she does.
does he have the right to take away her right to become a parent?

12 Apr 2007

Quote by VelvetTigers

Ahhhh my opinion, a fight over the eggs, they would have to be split if they both wanted to use it, but it could be argued that if it is for another woman using his sperm, he could use any donor as he still has viable sperm to use (that is for a biological child).

I don't deny as it stands he has more options - but - he has as much right to the fertilised eggs as she does.
does he have the right to take away her right to become a parent?
Just as much as her trying to make him be one against his will.
Edit: Actually I’ll come back to this – she doesn’t have a ‘right’ to be a parent.

12 Apr 2007

Quote by PoloLady

Ahhhh my opinion, a fight over the eggs, they would have to be split if they both wanted to use it, but it could be argued that if it is for another woman using his sperm, he could use any donor as he still has viable sperm to use (that is for a biological child).

I don't deny as it stands he has more options - but - he has as much right to the fertilised eggs as she does.
Hmmm i feel a trap :giggle:
Yes he does - but in saying that, i shoot myself in the foot.... :shock:
If it is to create a child or to try to then yes he has as much right as she does.
But if it is to destroy the eggs when one party does not want it, i would say no, that was not the original intention for them. (fgs dont bring termination choices in to it now) lol

12 Apr 2007

Quote by Juniper_couple
let those without sin cast the first stone etc etc

What has that got to do with people voicing an opinion? confused

errrr if you read the whole of that parragraph, not just the bit you have picked out you will see i was saying that WE ALL HAVE OPERTUNITY TO DO SELFLESS THINGS FOR OTHER PEOPLE YET THE MAJORITY OF THE TIME WE CHOSE NOT TO DO SO!
hence how can we judge him for not doing something for her?
meaning, only people who would always put other people first could look down on him for not doing so.
and i never said it was anything to do with an opinion!
that ok?
WBB i'm not trying to upset you, just asking a question - I did read all of your post and that is why i asked the above question as it did not make sense to me.
I now understand it is to do with judging, is not our opinions on lots of things judging? That is human nature !!
As to;
meaning, only people who would always put other people first could look down on him for not doing so.
Not really, everyone is entitled to an opinion, be it judging or not. sorry, i had not noticed this post, i must have been replying to another one when u posted it. it seemed to me that you were trying to be arsey about what i was saying, if i am wrong then i appologise for my earlier reply to you.
with regards to judging, yes i agree we all make our own judgements (as this thread has shown) lol but i guess i am trying to say that we can not condem him without condeming ourselves.

12 Apr 2007

Quote by PoloLady
Edit: Actually I’ll come back to this – she doesn’t have a ‘right’ to be a parent.

noooo!!!!!
i actually deleted and then redid an earlier post of mine saying this, and decided against it as it would open up a whole new can of worms! now you have brought it up and i will feel the need to argue this point aswell now!
thanks a bunch! :twisted: evil

12 Apr 2007

Quote by well_busty_babe
Edit: Actually I’ll come back to this – she doesn’t have a ‘right’ to be a parent.

noooo!!!!!
i actually deleted and then redid an earlier post of mine saying this, and decided against it as it would open up a whole new can of worms! now you have brought it up and i will feel the need to argue this point aswell now!
thanks a bunch! :twisted: evil

Blame VelvetTigers bolt

12 Apr 2007

Quote by PoloLady
Edit: Actually I’ll come back to this – she doesn’t have a ‘right’ to be a parent.

noooo!!!!!
i actually deleted and then redid an earlier post of mine saying this, and decided against it as it would open up a whole new can of worms! now you have brought it up and i will feel the need to argue this point aswell now!
thanks a bunch! :twisted: evil

Blame VelvetTigers bolt

sorry! just putting other points accross! i like to open cans of worms! Personally i dont think there can be a soloution to this as yes he has the right to choose(by law), but if she were already pregnant he wouldnt (is this fair? - or another can of worms?), so there can never be a resoloution to make either happy! My only heatbreak is that she will now NEVER have her own biological children, but he can!

12 Apr 2007

Quote by VelvetTigers
but if she were already pregnant he wouldnt (is this fair? - or another can of worms!

you are determined that i am going to spend all day in the forum arnt you!!!!!! lol

:lol: :lol:

12 Apr 2007

i think the court made the right decision as the man surely has the right to decide when he has children and who with..if you are going to bring a child into this world it would be hopefully if possible with someone you loved and wanted to be was his human right and common sense