Is it possible to grasp concepts almost regardless of an IQ?

1 Feb 2005

I disagree with the notion that any concept can be conveyed regardless of IQ. I saw the example first hand last night.
My mother is quite and intelligent lady, I reckon her IQ is quite high average (around 110/120) but she didnt understand the fundamental concept that I am open to new ideas and will try a few things that she would never do. She also couldn't grasp that me buying a ballgag and some nipple clamps on ebay does not make me a whore. dunno

I suppose it goes back to the old nature or nurture thing as to whether someone can be taught a concept regardless of IQ. Do we learn from our surroundings and experiences or is it pre-programmed genetically? I agree with Ghostie's theory that the "dumbing down" of a concept can make the original concept fundamentaly flawed as important chunks of the original concept may be lost in translation. This is something that we can see in translations of literature where one language has a particular word which means something to them but the word chosen for translation has different conotations for us.

1 Feb 2005

Quote by VenusnMars
Thankyou Ghostie
Well, after reading up on what Philosophy actually is, I`m not entirely convinced the subject leaves much room for common sense...... :uhoh:
Venusxxx

Oh thats just your philosophy! Mine is quite different.. :twisted:

:rotflmao: :rotflmao:

1 Feb 2005

What's all this about? I've no conception wink

1 Feb 2005

Quote by Vic
What's all this about? I've no conception

I hear that condoms are quite good for that... :wink:

1 Feb 2005

Quote by little gem
I ...My mother is quite and intelligent lady, I reckon her IQ is quite high average (around 110/120) but she didnt understand the fundamental concept that I am open to new ideas and will try a few things that she would never do. She also couldn't grasp that me buying a ballgag and some nipple clamps on ebay does not make me a whore.

Is this not confusing the idea of concept and agreement? I understand the concept of what your mother said - but I don't agree with it either! I think this reins back to philosophical arguments about ethics, right and wrong, freedoms etc.. Which is quite appropriate given thread.. ;)
Live long and prosper! evil

1 Feb 2005

I find that a fair percentage of the students here fail to understand the concept that to succeed at University, one actually has to put a degree of effort into learning without being spoon-fed. Although this is a matter of great hilarity amongst the staff here, there is a serious point to it..... People today in general expect to be spoon-fed, and so the art of grasping a concept becomes more and more of a non-necessity, which is worrying, as taking students as an example, some of the morons I am involved with will one day be at the forefront of British Engineering. God help us! We're doomed!
Add to that their failure to grasp the black art of good manners and their utter failure in understanding and applying the laws of common sense, and it becomes an absolute tedium dealing with some of the little fuckers. The majority are very good, I hasten to add.....
Rick biggrin

1 Feb 2005

If you can understand my mother, please can you write me an instruction manual, she baffles me at times! lol

I believe that concept and agreement go hand in hand. One has much more difficulty understanding a concept with which they disagree rather than one they can relate to and do agree with in part or wholely. If a concept is disagreed with one is more likely to probe deeper to question it. As humans we will naturally relate it back to the Wynne Harlen theory that concepts are best taught on the knowledge base of the "concrete experience" rather than the abstract concept. For example when teaching a child to do multiplication, it is often done with repetition and moving solid objects into groups. The IQ will determine how quickly this concept is grasped, however the notion of IQ (intelligence quotia) is fundamentally flawed as it is based solely on spatial awareness, shape recogniton, shape fitting and word skills. Many IQ test do not deal with the concept of Howard Gardener's 7 types of intelligence, so the test is only in certain areas and is more favourable to the traditional male brain as spatial awarenss traits have been scientifically attributed to favour male brain structures.
Sooooo, is this this question fundamentally flawed due to the traditional IQ scores not giving a true indication of a person's actual full abilty or skills??

1 Feb 2005

Quote by little gem
I disagree with the notion that any concept can be conveyed regardless of IQ. I saw the example first hand last night.
My mother is quite and intelligent lady, I reckon her IQ is quite high average (around 110/120) but she didnt understand the fundamental concept that I am open to new ideas and will try a few things that she would never do. She also couldn't grasp that me buying a ballgag and some nipple clamps on ebay does not make me a whore.
I suppose it goes back to the old nature or nurture thing as to whether someone can be taught a concept regardless of IQ. Do we learn from our surroundings and experiences or is it pre-programmed genetically? I agree with Ghostie's theory that the "dumbing down" of a concept can make the original concept fundamentaly flawed as important chunks of the original concept may be lost in translation. This is something that we can see in translations of literature where one language has a particular word which means something to them but the word chosen for translation has different conotations for us.

I think it`s an entirely different matter to not being able to grasp a concept because personal morality prevents you from wanting to, but do agree that Ghosties theory does hold water. I suppose the subject would have to be dumbed down, and then the level raised in managable chunks from there.....bit like school really! Unfortunately I don`t have room for school.
Gem, you are not a whore, you are an animal!
That said, perhaps it wasn`t one of my best moves when I posted on a Philosophy forum and told them that thier subject didn`t seem to leave much room for common sense.......
:uhoh:
In the nicest possible way of course! :mrgreen:
Off to watch a film!
Venusxxx

1 Feb 2005

I dont think IQ is an indication of a persons ability to learn any concept as IQ test are so inherently flawed.
An IQ test will by its very nature fail to measure those with the highest conceptual ability as it requiers "correct" answers, defined by the sutour. The people most likely tohave an easy grasp of concepts are those who think for themselve and go beyond being "correct"
Hence people iwth more free thinking minds often achiev lower scores but can understand concepts the best.

1 Feb 2005

Quote by little gem
If you can understand my mother, please can you write me an instruction manual, she baffles me at times!
I believe that concept and agreement go hand in hand. One has much more difficulty understanding a concept with which they disagree rather than one they can relate to and do agree with in part or wholely. If a concept is disagreed with one is more likely to probe deeper to question it. As humans we will naturally relate it back to the Wynne Harlen theory that concepts are best taught on the knowledge base of the "concrete experience" rather than the abstract concept. For example when teaching a child to do multiplication, it is often done with repetition and moving solid objects into groups. The IQ will determine how quickly this concept is grasped, however the notion of IQ (intelligence quotia) is fundamentally flawed as it is based solely on spatial awareness, shape recogniton, shape fitting and word skills. Many IQ test do not deal with the concept of Howard Gardener's 7 types of intelligence, so the test is only in certain areas and is more favourable to the traditional male brain as spatial awarenss traits have been scientifically attributed to favour male brain structures.
Sooooo, is this this question fundamentally flawed due to the traditional IQ scores not giving a true indication of a person's actual full abilty or skills??

Chunking down? :twisted:
I think (wth Venus's agreement of course) that if you substitute intelligence (a generalisation) for IQ (a flawed measurement of intelligence) then we're back on track...(Just chunking up again...) ;)
I thought Gardener's model is about cognitive learning styles - not about measuring intelligence? But I agree that EQ is certainly a major factor..

1 Feb 2005

foxyLady, that's a good observation.... I have always achieved quite a low / medium score on these TV IQ tests, but would never have achieved the things I have in my hobbies without grasping many concepts of mechanical devices, their operation, and function.....
I am not the most intelligent of people by any stretch, but am able to apply cognitive thought processes to practical situations....
Rick. smile

1 Feb 2005

Quote by Venus
I think it`s an entirely different matter to not want to grasp a concept because personal morality prevents you from wanting to,

Ahhh, but that was my above point about IQ's and the link between grasping concepts. There are other things such as morality and agreement that do cloud some people's thought processes. It can be enough to distort the concept into what they want it to be and thereby destroying the original thing they were trying to grasp, kind of making the whole thing a bit pointless really.
To be able to fully understand someone elses concept does one not engage their abilty to empathise or put themselves in the theorists shoes, so to speak, in order to grasp the concept fully? If these personal skills are flawed then the way the person interprets the concept will be regardless of their IQ as they refuse to understand due to lack of emotional intelligence. How many times does one get mental blocks about things saying we "can't do it". The rational brain processes would say if another approach was given then the target was acheivable. This lack of rationality is often linked with emotion, so the grasping of concepts can also have an emotional barrier to learning too.

1 Feb 2005

Quote by Ghostie
I think (wth Venus's agreement of course) that if you substitute intelligence (a generalisation) for IQ (a flawed measurement of intelligence) then we're back on track...(Just chunking up again...) ;)

That would be far more accurate thank you. smile

I really do have to watch this film....it`s his birthday, and I said I would! Arggggh, just as it was getting really interesting!
It`s `The Day after Tomorrow` so consider me well dumbed down by the time I get back lol

Venusxxx

1 Feb 2005

Quote by little gem
I think it`s an entirely different matter to not want to grasp a concept because personal morality prevents you from wanting to,

Ahhh, but that was my above point about IQ's and the link between grasping concepts. There are other things such as morality and agreement that do cloud some people's thought processes. It can be enough to distort the concept into what they want it to be and thereby destroying the original thing they were trying to grasp, kind of making the whole thing a bit pointless really.
To be able to fully understand someone elses concept does one not engage their abilty to empathise or put themselves in the theorists shoes, so to speak, in order to grasp the concept fully? If these personal skills are flawed then the way the person interprets the concept will be regardless of their IQ as they refuse to understand due to lack of emotional intelligence. How many times does one get mental blocks about things saying we "can't do it". The rational brain processes would say if another approach was given then the target was acheivable. This lack of rationality is often linked with emotion, so the grasping of concepts can also have an emotional barrier to learning too.
Ok, that makes perfect sense. So, can a concept be grasped by someone who is prepared to look outside of their moral conditioning, irrespective of intelligence (not IQ) without a subject becoming so dumbed down it loses cohesion?
It certainly seems possible to look beyond moral conditioning. When I was a young teen the popular opinion I lived around was that homosexuality and masturbation was wrong. As I grew up I certainly wasn`t prepared to accept these prejudices` without exploring the concepts further, and as a result I am a much better person for doing so. Yet even now there are other things which do not sit comfortably with me......but I am aware that the world comes in all shades of grey, so I do not prejudice, I tend to assume that these things are merely beyond my understanding for now. However, I would like to be in a position not to take this stance based on the `benefit of the doubt`, purely because I might not be capable of `getting it`.
Venusxxx

1 Feb 2005

Quote by VenusnMars
[... However, I would like to be in a position not to take this stance based on the `benefit of the doubt`, purely because I might not be capable of `getting it`.

Why would you choose to believe that of yourself? You're model of the universe is as valid as anyother. Keep and open mind, be curious and experiment wantonly.... I doubt that there is very much the you wouldn't "get" now..

1 Feb 2005

The answer to your question depends on the concept as well as the individual.
According to the Penguin Dictionary of Psychology, a concept is "a complex of objects all of which share some attribute(s) or properties".
For simplicity purposes, a concept could be seen as a table and chairs - they share some attributes of properties.
So, it depends Venus, on just how complex a concept is on whether high or low IQ is necessary.

1 Feb 2005

Quote by Ghostie
Why would you choose to believe that of yourself? ..

If I had already chosen to believe that, then this thread would not exist. ;)
Venusxxx

1 Feb 2005

Quote by VenusnMars

Why would you choose to believe that of yourself? ..

If I had already chosen to believe that, then this thread would not exist. ;)
Venusxxx
I like you! You're smart.. ;)

1 Feb 2005

That is debatable! rotflmao

Venusxxx

1 Feb 2005

Quote by VenusnMars
That is debatable!
Venusxxx

By whom? Why would you choose to belive that of yourself? :twisted:

1 Feb 2005

Quote by Ghostie
That is debatable!
Venusxxx

By whom? Why would you choose to belive that of yourself? :twisted:
:giggle::giggle: :giggle:
If I were stupid I might....... lol

Venusxxx

1 Feb 2005

Some concepts are definitely forever beyond the grasp of certain people.
God created everything.
Including hell.
God is Good.
Nope, sorry, I don't get it.
I guess I'm just not as intelligent as religious people. dunno

1 Feb 2005

Quote by Ice Pie
Some concepts are definitely forever beyond the grasp of certain people.
God created everything.
Including hell.
God is Good.
Nope, sorry, I don't get it.
I guess I'm just not as intelligent as religious people.

Your reply raises some interesting questions:
Which God are you refering too?
What is hell, where is hell, which hell are you refering to, is your helll my heaven?
What is your understanding of good,?

1 Feb 2005

Quote by Ice Pie
Some concepts are definitely forever beyond the grasp of certain people.
God created everything.
Including hell.
God is Good.
Nope, sorry, I don't get it.
I guess I'm just not as intelligent as religious people.

/wipes brow
If you carry on posting like that Ice, then I might just survive! rotflmao

Venusxxx

1 Feb 2005

Quote by foxylady 123
Some concepts are definitely forever beyond the grasp of certain people.
God created everything.
Including hell.
God is Good.
Nope, sorry, I don't get it.
I guess I'm just not as intelligent as religious people.

Your reply raises some interesting questions:
Which God are you refering too?
What is hell, where is hell, which hell are you refering to, is your helll my heaven?
What is your understanding of good,?
I decline to answer since apparently I'm not fat enough to be taken seriously as a human being. rolleyes

1 Feb 2005

Quote by Ice Pie
Some concepts are definitely forever beyond the grasp of certain people.
God created everything.
Including hell.
God is Good.
Nope, sorry, I don't get it.
I guess I'm just not as intelligent as religious people.

Your reply raises some interesting questions:
Which God are you refering too?
What is hell, where is hell, which hell are you refering to, is your helll my heaven?
What is your understanding of good,?
I decline to answer since apparently I'm not fat enough to be taken seriously as a human being. rolleyes

:evil2: :evil2: :evil2: :evil2: :evil2:
Oh dear and whos got the shoulder chip now!!!?????

1 Feb 2005

Quote by Ice Pie
Some concepts are definitely forever beyond the grasp of certain people.
God created everything.
Including hell.
God is Good.
Nope, sorry, I don't get it.
I guess I'm just not as intelligent as religious people.

Haha...I like that one.
On the first day he said let there be light and there was light. But only on the 5th (? definately the later part of the week) did he creat the sun, the moon and the stars. :dunno:
But I'm going off subject now.......

1 Feb 2005

Or, we could just adopt the attitude my mother was brought up with.....
`Do not question the ways of the Lord!`
How conveniant :huh:
Venusxxx

1 Feb 2005

Quote by cool4catz
Haha...I like that one.
On the first day he said let there be light and there was light. But only on the 5th (? definately the later part of the week) did he creat the sun, the moon and the stars.
But I'm going off subject now.......

What I want to know is, how come he was so prolific in the first seven days, but hasn't really created much of any significance in the thousands of years since then? Did he burn himself out in that first week?
No, didn't he scream "I AM THE GOD OF WAR" and set to work. Doing a damn good job of it too from what I can see. Don't get me started .....

1 Feb 2005

Quote by Libra-Love
On the first day he said let there be light and there was light.

And on the second day the angels said "Fuck that, let there be heavy", and there was Swinging Heaven." rotflmao