I was watching TV one morning, when on Trisha, a plump peirced woman, who was very alternative appeared as a guest. Her story was that she liked to streak. She wanted to put her case across, about why she felt the need to express her freedom to be comfortable with her body, and free herself from what she saw was the restraints of clothing.
What upset me was that she was completely attacked by the audiance, and mob mentality kicked in. One woman told her that if she took her clothes off in a park in front of her children, that she would smack her in the face, the audiance clapped: another woman told her that she should colour her see through clothes in black, and cover her head with them, the audiance clapped; then amid jeers, another woman told her that she was a disgrace to all women and should be locked up, again the audiance clapped.
These people are the ones who are supposed to give valid points of view about issues which occur on the show. I have seen past shows (I lead a sad life I know!) where young pretty girls wish to expose their bodies, and a great many people from the audiance have supported them. Confronted with a fat, peirced tattooed alternative woman, and they completely attacked her.
I was mortified when I watched this, particularly at the threat of violence and the support it received. When I tried to listen to what the woman had to say, I found her to be very intelligent with an interesting point of view, a point of view I would have liked to have heard more of, but popular mob mentality won the day, and I don`t feel that her points were discussed as closely as they could have been. It didn`t surprise me to learn from her friends who tried to defend her, that she had lived a hard life. As far as popular entertainment was concerned, she was nothing more than a freak show. How many of us are guilty of this attitude when we are happy? Which brings me to the irony of the human condition.
In my own experiances, and observations, I have come to the conclusion that those who have not been close to human suffering are shallow, ignorant, but more often than not, successful happy people. Is it that to be a success in this life, that by our very natures we should be cruel and unfeeling? Take the social structure of the school playground (for that is where it all starts); the popular kids have a following, they dictate who is liked, and who is not. If by pointing out a child who does not fit into the social mould, their own status goes up a notch, then they will of course do that. The other kids will then ostracize this child, in the hope of also becoming more like the cool kid, it is a system which works well, for the majority, why change it for the sake of the one child who get the thin edge of the wedge? In fact this rhetorical question does not even exist for the majority, it only exists for the child who is rejected. Therefore it is only the rejected child who who ponders this, and therefore learn to think a little deeper than the majority, to give those who do do not fit in, more than a quick judgement.
This does not change when this social group reach adulthood. The violent kids grow up to be rough adults, threatening to `smack` anyone who crosses their path, so noone crosses them, as a result they raise their children to be the same, and it works for them. The `successful` kids, who get to flaunt their latest fashions, who were encouraged to grow up quicker, just to have the `edge` on the other kids, so they can be the coolest, still get to criticise the other adults who don`t fit their `ideal`, and surprise, surprise, their children are 9, going on 30, and the majority of these people are happy, shallow granted, but do you think they notice, or are suffering for it? I think not.
Even I myself, in one short period of my life, when I made friends with two `normal` people, began to behave in a more `popular` manner, it didn`t last, I blew it.
My point is, (sorry I babbled), is the human condition so shallow, and so perverse, that we can only be happy if we disregard others?
Venusxxx
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Is the human condition a cruel joke?
Sex God
A very good point there
I've never been a follower of fashion (most comfy wearing my wellies and jods) and although I have never been without friends or unpopular I still class myself as a little different. I like what I like and won't change that to fit in and wouldn't expect anyone else to either
I recently became part of the local fetish scene and have met some great people there, they don't judge on looks or dress and it is perfectly acceptable to be alternative even welcomed
People should be able to express themselves any way they want, after all we're all individuals and not sheep
I've never been a follower of fashion (most comfy wearing my wellies and jods) and although I have never been without friends or unpopular I still class myself as a little different. I like what I like and won't change that to fit in and wouldn't expect anyone else to either
I recently became part of the local fetish scene and have met some great people there, they don't judge on looks or dress and it is perfectly acceptable to be alternative even welcomed
People should be able to express themselves any way they want, after all we're all individuals and not sheep
Sex God
There's a thin line between the pack mentality and bullying. Just look at the Nazis. It is very important for rational people to be prepared to stand up and count for the value of other people's creeds, opinions and wishes.
Good on yer V.
Good on yer V.
We are all diferent from the rest. It takes a VERY strong person to stand up and tell others that they are not 'normal'...? I am so glad I have never been normal in that sense, and although I tow the line in most things, because of my own morals, there are things I will not stand for, and if it arises, I will say out loud. I often get in bother, but I know what you mean, last night they re-ran some of the old stuff. But to be honest the audiences are often subdued to be quiet when the majority bend one way. Again, it takes a bold person to get it over, and often the mob wins. Sounds like the life story of shrek!
Quote by JudyTV
Everything in life usually has a price. It may be now, later today, next year or later in life. To those who rule by force or are mob handed then it is is in my opinion only a matter of time before the bill drops onto the mat and the longer it takes the bigger it will be.
JudyTV
Does it though Judy? Or at least, does it happen enough? Sometimes it seems the masses have hit a `winning` approach, for themselves and thier immediates at least, and there are plenty of them out there. My father in law was such a man, he died with no regrets, pissed us off immensely. We had been waiting for the penny to drop.
These attitudes can be passed down through the generations. Is it something humankind will eventually evolve out of, or is it simply our version of `survival of the fittest`? Once upon a time `survival of the fittest` concerned those who couldn`t cut it physically, thanks to modern day science this is no longer such an issue. Perhaps the speed with which our science has progressed has made humankind just a little too complacent. If only as much effort had been dedicated to the understaning of emotional makeup. Now it seems the rat race has no need for that.
I blame the downfall of the ancient Greeks, they were on the right track!
Venuxxx
Awesome statement venus!
I agree with your observation totally and have come to the same conclusion. These people haven't a fucking clue what it means to suffer and struggle! No doubt they will be on here after this trying to justify the shallow lives they lead. Some people have been very fortunate in their lives and have never had to fight to achieve anything. Good for them! What pisses me off is when they all then start patronizing the rest of us and telling us we are not trying hard enough, or we are lazy, or because we are not successful enough, or not rich enough, or not doing well at all! It's obvious to me they have never had the disadvantages some of us have had, otherwise they would not be saying how easy it is to get on and achieve in life!
Well you have just described me! The pondering child for whom the big question remains. I think on the whole that the majority of people are good people. There are certain others that are more asocial and psychopathic and they can create a lot of hurt and pain in our daily lives and sometimes on a national level. These are not powerful people, they are weak and pathetic. The majority of people are not like this.
Of course not! We cannot disregard others. It's not human. If we act in a purely selfish way then eventually people will notice this and we will not be trusted. I think co-operation is the base line and although this is selfish in it's own way, in that it has it's benefits, it serves the wider good. Certainly happiness is not based on any social structure anyway. It's entirely based on internal consciousnes and realisation.
LC
In my own experiances, and observations, I have come to the conclusion that those who have not been close to human suffering are shallow, ignorant, but more often than not, successful happy people.
I agree with your observation totally and have come to the same conclusion. These people haven't a fucking clue what it means to suffer and struggle! No doubt they will be on here after this trying to justify the shallow lives they lead. Some people have been very fortunate in their lives and have never had to fight to achieve anything. Good for them! What pisses me off is when they all then start patronizing the rest of us and telling us we are not trying hard enough, or we are lazy, or because we are not successful enough, or not rich enough, or not doing well at all! It's obvious to me they have never had the disadvantages some of us have had, otherwise they would not be saying how easy it is to get on and achieve in life!
Is it that to be a success in this life, that by our very natures we should be cruel and unfeeling? Take the social structure of the school playground (for that is where it all starts); the popular kids have a following, they dictate who is liked, and who is not. If by pointing out a child who does not fit into the social mould, their own status goes up a notch, then they will of course do that. The other kids will then ostracize this child, in the hope of also becoming more like the cool kid, it is a system which works well, for the majority, why change it for the sake of the one child who get the thin edge of the wedge? In fact this rhetorical question does not even exist for the majority, it only exists for the child who is rejected. Therefore it is only the rejected child who who ponders this, and therefore learn to think a little deeper than the majority, to give those who do do not fit in, more than a quick judgement.
Well you have just described me! The pondering child for whom the big question remains. I think on the whole that the majority of people are good people. There are certain others that are more asocial and psychopathic and they can create a lot of hurt and pain in our daily lives and sometimes on a national level. These are not powerful people, they are weak and pathetic. The majority of people are not like this.
My point is, (sorry I babbled), is the human condition so shallow, and so perverse, that we can only be happy if we disregard others.
Of course not! We cannot disregard others. It's not human. If we act in a purely selfish way then eventually people will notice this and we will not be trusted. I think co-operation is the base line and although this is selfish in it's own way, in that it has it's benefits, it serves the wider good. Certainly happiness is not based on any social structure anyway. It's entirely based on internal consciousnes and realisation.
LC
My point is, (sorry I babbled), is the human condition so shallow, and so perverse, that we can only be happy if we disregard others.
LC, perhaps I should ammend that to `disregard others who don`t fit into society`s popular mould?
I`m just not too happy about the requirements needed to fit that mould. Once a popular mould is in place, where`s the condemnation for treating those outside of this mould badly going to come from? The minority, that`s where. Hardly enough to turn the tide I fear. If the majority rules, is this evidence of what human nature is? Because if it is, it`s a cruel joke. I`d like to think that the minority are those who have `evolved` somewhat, instead of some failing branch of humanity which doesn`t fit in with Mother nature`s sense of humour.
Certainly happiness is not based on any social structure anyway. It's entirely based on internal consciousnes and realisation.
That certainly helps, but it`s a bit of a bugger for the natural extrovert.
Venusxxx
Sex God
Venus
the ties that used to bind societies together no longer apply, and we are set adrift in a world that frequently makes no sense. we live in a world founded on the premise that greed is good, because we have to believe that to feed the greater greed of those who rule us. we are socialised into it. and we are socialised into seeing difference as something to be afraid of, because difference questions the status quo, and is seen to be undermining it.
we are socially programmed from birth to simultaneously accept our position within that society, yet strive to better our own position within it. however we achieve that is supposedly up to us ourselves. but we are spoon fed a way of life that seems to be the natural way of the world, by parents, schools, the workplace, the wider society in which we live.
it's no wonder then that there seems to be a strong compulsion in some to elevate their own status by downgrading that of others, and the more forcefully you can do that, the greater the seperation that exists between you. this works militarily, between countries, economically through competition, and just as obviously in the schoolyard. it's all one and the same thing. it's evident as Judy says in the vehement homophobe afraid of his sexuality, so cast down what you fear and think at least i am not that.
if the world works through the strong exploiting the weak ((( and that is undeniable! ))) then we have to be conditioned into believing that that is right and proper, and to not question it, our ourselves. so long as it works for us, why worry about them we trample along the way. and certainly it is often those who question their place, and fail according to those who set the rules, that suffer it most. if you are winning, your strategy is validated, so no need to question it. those who are getting the thin end of the wedge, can do nothing but question!
neil x x x ;-)
the ties that used to bind societies together no longer apply, and we are set adrift in a world that frequently makes no sense. we live in a world founded on the premise that greed is good, because we have to believe that to feed the greater greed of those who rule us. we are socialised into it. and we are socialised into seeing difference as something to be afraid of, because difference questions the status quo, and is seen to be undermining it.
we are socially programmed from birth to simultaneously accept our position within that society, yet strive to better our own position within it. however we achieve that is supposedly up to us ourselves. but we are spoon fed a way of life that seems to be the natural way of the world, by parents, schools, the workplace, the wider society in which we live.
it's no wonder then that there seems to be a strong compulsion in some to elevate their own status by downgrading that of others, and the more forcefully you can do that, the greater the seperation that exists between you. this works militarily, between countries, economically through competition, and just as obviously in the schoolyard. it's all one and the same thing. it's evident as Judy says in the vehement homophobe afraid of his sexuality, so cast down what you fear and think at least i am not that.
if the world works through the strong exploiting the weak ((( and that is undeniable! ))) then we have to be conditioned into believing that that is right and proper, and to not question it, our ourselves. so long as it works for us, why worry about them we trample along the way. and certainly it is often those who question their place, and fail according to those who set the rules, that suffer it most. if you are winning, your strategy is validated, so no need to question it. those who are getting the thin end of the wedge, can do nothing but question!
neil x x x ;-)
Sex God
Quote by Lovecommando
....... These people haven't a fucking clue what it means to suffer and struggle! No doubt they will be on here after this trying to justify the shallow lives they lead. Some people have been very fortunate in their lives and have never had to fight to achieve anything. Good for them! What pisses me off is when they all then start patronizing the rest of us and telling us we are not trying hard enough, or we are lazy, or because we are not successful enough, or not rich enough, or not doing well at all! It's obvious to me they have never had the disadvantages some of us have had, otherwise they would not be saying how easy it is to get on and achieve in life!
LC
This and the remainder of your post, LC, switches the whole argument from objective to subjective. Why do I find myself starting to disagree with it at that point. Maybe it is the generalisations necessary to achieve the subjectivity. I have to say that statements that start ...'These people...' especially when they refer to those who may or may not have experienced something are, almost by definition, wrong. It cannot apply to all 'these people'. I know some people, who have led relatively sheltered lives, who most certainly are not shallow.
That said I agree with practically everything else said about the pack mentality - and have contributed to it above.
Just my opinion you understand.
Venus,some very good points there,
I was never in the "in" crowd at school,and don't think ill ever be in that place and have no desire to be.I believe that a lot of this mentality is down to how the children of today are being brought up.I bring my kids up to be aware of as much as i possibly can.I try to put across to them that you shouldnt treat anyone else how they wouldnt like to be treated themselves and i hope that this attitude will help them to grow up to be rounded individuals who are aware of other peoples feelings.
I believe that if you can bring your children up to be openminded individuals then your doing all that you can to prevent them from becoming adults who have a desire to belittle others in order to make them feel is down to the parents to do this as much as they can,as todays children are tomorrows world leaders and can do their bit to change this attitude in society.
As for the masses having the winning streak then yes some certainly do,but to judge yourself on what car you drive or how much money you earn is a sad thing.
I judge myself on my happiness and how damn lucky i am to have what i have.
I dont crave to be "normal" and i never will,i pride myself on being different and i think that everyone should,Hold you head up high and be proud.
I was never in the "in" crowd at school,and don't think ill ever be in that place and have no desire to be.I believe that a lot of this mentality is down to how the children of today are being brought up.I bring my kids up to be aware of as much as i possibly can.I try to put across to them that you shouldnt treat anyone else how they wouldnt like to be treated themselves and i hope that this attitude will help them to grow up to be rounded individuals who are aware of other peoples feelings.
I believe that if you can bring your children up to be openminded individuals then your doing all that you can to prevent them from becoming adults who have a desire to belittle others in order to make them feel is down to the parents to do this as much as they can,as todays children are tomorrows world leaders and can do their bit to change this attitude in society.
As for the masses having the winning streak then yes some certainly do,but to judge yourself on what car you drive or how much money you earn is a sad thing.
I judge myself on my happiness and how damn lucky i am to have what i have.
I dont crave to be "normal" and i never will,i pride myself on being different and i think that everyone should,Hold you head up high and be proud.
Quote by JudyTV
Hi Venus,
You are of course quite right there will always be the odd one who escapes this poetic justice or appears to. After saying this, can we really be sure that their pain is non existent or just well hidden due to the arrogance of a lifetime of bullying and rule by intimidation.
No, I don`t think we can be sure. In the case of my Father-in-law (sorry to keep using him as an example, but these observations have to come from somewhere) I would hazzard a guess that his behaviours were definately a result of some inner unhappiness. Unfortunately I`m sure he kept this hidden on some unconcious level, allowing his mindset to project this upon everyone around him. Conciously I think he was convinced that everyone else was at fault, allowing himself the `illusion` of happiness, could he tell the difference between illusion and reality I wonder? Perhaps it was my undesirable trait which waited in vain for the day the realisation would hit that in fact he was the cause of so much misery?
I would like to think there is such a thing as a kind of divine providence of some kind from wherever and or whatever. I know I sound naive but it gives me some peace so pacify me.
I do this too, but with `life after death` theories, I don`t have a faith, but neither do I like to write off the possibilty of an afterlife, even in the face of overwhelming scientific fact. Still waiting for a scientific answer which will pacify me, I`m happier in the hoping.
That said, if this thread dissolves into a religious debate I`ll ask a mod to lock it! :twisted:
Of course I`ll allow you your pacifier Judy :rose: , we all need at least one. :)
Venusxxx
Quote by westerross
....... These people haven't a fucking clue what it means to suffer and struggle! No doubt they will be on here after this trying to justify the shallow lives they lead. Some people have been very fortunate in their lives and have never had to fight to achieve anything. Good for them! What pisses me off is when they all then start patronizing the rest of us and telling us we are not trying hard enough, or we are lazy, or because we are not successful enough, or not rich enough, or not doing well at all! It's obvious to me they have never had the disadvantages some of us have had, otherwise they would not be saying how easy it is to get on and achieve in life!
LC
This and the remainder of your post, LC, switches the whole argument from objective to subjective. Why do I find myself starting to disagree with it at that point. Maybe it is the generalisations necessary to achieve the subjectivity. I have to say that statements that start ...'These people...' especially when they refer to those who may or may not have experienced something are, almost by definition, wrong. It cannot apply to all 'these people'. I know some people, who have led relatively sheltered lives, who most certainly are not shallow.
That said I agree with practically everything else said about the pack mentality - and have contributed to it above.
Just my opinion you understand.
Yes, Tune I agree with you! I was just generalising a bit and having of a rant! Maybe I sounded subjective, yes! Well I have a lot of experiences I haven't explicitly gone into but which do inform my opinion. Maybe I sounded subjective, if only because I am forbidden to objectively name certain individuals on this site for example, or elsewhere even, who have royally fucked me off! Maybe that's the difference between a subjective and an objective opinion. One is hinted at, the other is stated explicitly! However I have no doubt that those I have had in mind know who they are and are now reading this!
LC
Well I was always the weird kid in school (i think!) maybe I just felt weird but I never really felt like I fitted in really but tbh it doesnt really bother me??
I think I am quite happy with who I am although I know Ive got lots of room for improvement! Just keep plugging on as usual who know what might happen!
I think I am quite happy with who I am although I know Ive got lots of room for improvement! Just keep plugging on as usual who know what might happen!
Clare, I`ve done this with my children, and watched them become osterocised (especally one of them) as a result. I can almost understand why some parents encourage them not only to join in with the `mob mentality`, but to be good at it too. They don`t want thier children to become the victims. I have one child who seems to be quite popular now, but I`m not happy with the `hard arse` attitude her peers are encouraging (difficult age, thirteen). She was constantly being bullied before she found these `peers`.
I`m a great believer in allowing my children to be children. My eldest killed her social life in the early years of primary by pretending to be different animals when playing. A school report commented that she was immature......she was 6. My middle child started to hide the fact she played with Barbies at the age of nine, and my youngest who`s now nine himself, bollocked me for giving him a Pokemon T-shirt to wear the other day, it`s no longer Pokemon, it`s now something I can`t pronounce! :shock:
Venusxxx
I`m a great believer in allowing my children to be children. My eldest killed her social life in the early years of primary by pretending to be different animals when playing. A school report commented that she was immature......she was 6. My middle child started to hide the fact she played with Barbies at the age of nine, and my youngest who`s now nine himself, bollocked me for giving him a Pokemon T-shirt to wear the other day, it`s no longer Pokemon, it`s now something I can`t pronounce! :shock:
Venusxxx
Sex God
Well said Clare
I try so hard to bring my kids up to accept other people as they are. Its somewhat easier to do that in our house because my eldest is slightly disabled. She walks unaided but has what she refers to as a "funny" walk. Obviously my youngest has asked quite a lot of questions about this, and because her big sister is disabled it's easy for me to explain that not all people are the same, but just because someone doesn't look the same or sound the same or even walk the same as us, doesn't mean they have any less right to be respected as individuals.
I only wish this kind of upbringing was more common. There are a lot of children on our street, ages ranging from 2 years old to
where do you stop counting them as children? Anyway, the eldest goes to a mainstream school and has been brought up alongside many of the local children. The children from her school have always been very accepting of her. Sometimes they ask innocent questions which she is always willing to answer. However, since we moved to this street, there are children from other schools who poke fun at her walk, and a few weeks ago I saw 2 of them walking down the street quite obviously taking the mickey out of the way she walks. My blood was boiling, but I had to stop myself from saying anything to them because their mother is the kind of person I wouldn't want to cross words with, let alone swords. I was alone at the time, but had my daughter actually seen them do it it would have been a different story.
I was one of those children that Venus described... the one that was ostracised and ignored because one of the "popular" girls decided that she didn't want to talk to me, and the other sheep followed suit. It took a big argument between me and "Ms Popular", which then led to a fight - something which I'd always shied away from before - for her to realise that I was someone worthy of her respect. Things improved from then, but even when I changed schools things were never smooth as far as school went. It's taken me a great many years to realise that I AM actually a worthy person and that just because one person decides that they don't like me, it doesnt mean that I'm any less of a nice or decent person.
I think I'm one of the lucky ones though. A very close friend of mine has helped me to see the good bits of me. Without her I'd still be a paranoid wreck convinced that I'm really not worthy of my happiness or whatever.
I only hope that my eldest has such a good friend so that she too feels worthy. Without that, I daren't even think about what her self esteem (or lack thereof) may do to her. I do what I can but I'm her mum, and in her words, "biased"
Only time will tell I suppose, but I hope she doesn't fall victim to the kind of people I did, because I'm not sure she has the self-belief to deal with it.
I try so hard to bring my kids up to accept other people as they are. Its somewhat easier to do that in our house because my eldest is slightly disabled. She walks unaided but has what she refers to as a "funny" walk. Obviously my youngest has asked quite a lot of questions about this, and because her big sister is disabled it's easy for me to explain that not all people are the same, but just because someone doesn't look the same or sound the same or even walk the same as us, doesn't mean they have any less right to be respected as individuals.
I only wish this kind of upbringing was more common. There are a lot of children on our street, ages ranging from 2 years old to
where do you stop counting them as children? Anyway, the eldest goes to a mainstream school and has been brought up alongside many of the local children. The children from her school have always been very accepting of her. Sometimes they ask innocent questions which she is always willing to answer. However, since we moved to this street, there are children from other schools who poke fun at her walk, and a few weeks ago I saw 2 of them walking down the street quite obviously taking the mickey out of the way she walks. My blood was boiling, but I had to stop myself from saying anything to them because their mother is the kind of person I wouldn't want to cross words with, let alone swords. I was alone at the time, but had my daughter actually seen them do it it would have been a different story.I was one of those children that Venus described... the one that was ostracised and ignored because one of the "popular" girls decided that she didn't want to talk to me, and the other sheep followed suit. It took a big argument between me and "Ms Popular", which then led to a fight - something which I'd always shied away from before - for her to realise that I was someone worthy of her respect. Things improved from then, but even when I changed schools things were never smooth as far as school went. It's taken me a great many years to realise that I AM actually a worthy person and that just because one person decides that they don't like me, it doesnt mean that I'm any less of a nice or decent person.
I think I'm one of the lucky ones though. A very close friend of mine has helped me to see the good bits of me. Without her I'd still be a paranoid wreck convinced that I'm really not worthy of my happiness or whatever.
I only hope that my eldest has such a good friend so that she too feels worthy. Without that, I daren't even think about what her self esteem (or lack thereof) may do to her. I do what I can but I'm her mum, and in her words, "biased"
Only time will tell I suppose, but I hope she doesn't fall victim to the kind of people I did, because I'm not sure she has the self-belief to deal with it.
I think that being in the in crowd is very over people are shallow and have no regard for the people outside theyre don't understand and don't want to understand the lives of less fortunate groups of people.
I am a numpty (yes a numpty),and i'm proud of it.I like to do things my way,but will go out of my way to try and make other people doing so this leaves me open to people trying to take advantage of my as it's who i am and what i'm about it's part of me that i have to put up with.
Everyone should try and understand and get along with every group of people out there,we can all live in harmony,it just takes time and energy to achieve problem here is that the in crowd don't like to get along with the numpties and never will (even on here :shock: ).
This is just my humble take on the social disease,but i had to put it and i don't want to offend.
From an ikkle numpty
I am a numpty (yes a numpty),and i'm proud of it.I like to do things my way,but will go out of my way to try and make other people doing so this leaves me open to people trying to take advantage of my as it's who i am and what i'm about it's part of me that i have to put up with.
Everyone should try and understand and get along with every group of people out there,we can all live in harmony,it just takes time and energy to achieve problem here is that the in crowd don't like to get along with the numpties and never will (even on here :shock: ).
This is just my humble take on the social disease,but i had to put it and i don't want to offend.
From an ikkle numpty
Sex God
I really admire Clare's and Angel's position on this. One has to remember though that the ideal has to be held by a strong character for it to work. Otherwise if held against the flow of opinion it can single the holder out for some unwanted attention and may need some very clever parental support at the right time. I'm digging a bit of a hole here so I'm going to stop. I'm not advocating cowardice but idealism in practice can be very difficult. I think the pragmatism in Angel's example is very wise.
My older brother falls into the catagory of someone better off talking down to and his wife,i'm sure,think that because were not as well off as them that our quaity of life is less than mind the fact that were extremely happy and content with each other and his marriage isnt that good,but he seems to think that the money and standing of there jobs is more important than our happiness.
Quote by westerross
I really admire Clare's and Angel's position on this. One has to remember though that the ideal has to be held by a strong character for it to work. Otherwise if held against the flow of opinion it can single the holder out for some unwanted attention and may need some very clever parental support at the right time. I'm digging a bit of a hole here so I'm going to stop. I'm not advocating cowardice but idealism in practice can be very difficult. I think the pragmatism in Angel's example is very wise.
I just had to say that I agree totally, and don`t think you are digging a hole at all Tune. I choose to bring my children up to be maginative, open, and accepting, but feel that sometimes I am doing so with the knowledge that I am opening them up for a tough childhood. A basic example of this is `if they hit you, hit them back`. I tell my kids that if you need to hit someone, then you have already lost the argument. Made life so tough, I now allow them a certain amount of physical self defense, in fact a neighbour watched my youngest walk away repeatedly from an older kid who was provoking him physically, and took great pleasure in observing him stop mid stride on his way home crying, turn around, run up and give this kid a bloody good kick in the shins!
It`s so difficuklt to find a balance, but as Tune points out, it takes a strong character to stand up for his or her rights, and sometimes pushing those ideals onto your children can seem like the hardest thing to do in the world. They are just kids for chrissakes!
My eldest daughter kept these ideals, and I ended up with a very troubled child who I had to home tutor, she never once wanted to join the crowd to make life a little easier for herself. She instead made some very good friends just like herself. Very intelligent alternative kids, who carry books in thier back pockets instead of bottles of cider! I love her mates to bits, but they carry a very adult look in thier eyes which no teen should have to contend with, and combined with their adolescence thier reactions to some of thier issues in life have left many a parent reeling!
That said, there are also times my teens have come home behaving in such a manner I`ve sat there thinking JESUS MOTHER AND MARY! This is NOT how I raised you, no I am NOT spending 6960787 quid on a pair of New Rocks!
The difference is, my eldest doesn`t get osterocised for not having the lastest pair of New Rocks.
It`ll all come out well in the end for her. She dealt with many of her issues and has now started college. She is loving it. She approached me the other day telling me of two groups of kids she met who used to pick on her at school. One group who are now attending her college, came up and apologised. The other group were lounging about outside, and began with thier snide remarks when her new social group surrounded her and told them to pack it in. My daughter had the largest group :twisted:
She asked them what they were doing with thier lives, and was told that they weren`t going back to school, that they were going to look for jobs (which would explain the loitering then
)She looked at them and said
`Well I think that`s really fucking stupid.`
and walked away without a backward glance
She was floating when she came home, and told me, `You know mum, you were right`
Maybe there is some hope after all
Venusxxx
:? :? Very interesting thread. I've never been someone who could be bothered to cultivate the in-crowd. My family are well used to telling me off for wearing clothes that are out of fashion, doing & saying odd things... & for the most part I don't give a damn. As long as I respect myself, that's the main thing, & I think that as a result other people are more likely to respect me!
On the topic of people who have it "easy", not being prepared to give those who have had a more difficult life a chance, a good example would be the situation with asylum seekers. I am not suggesting that the UK should open its doors to asylum seekers. The point I am making is that many people, often lead by the tabloid press, give them a really hard time. However, if you are born in a country that is so awful (economically, socially, politically etc) that you have to leave family & friends, & undertake a hazardous journey to a country where you know no-one in the hope of finding a better life, this just doesn't seem fair to me
. People who rage against asylum seekers should (in my view) put themselves in a similar situation & see how they would act... but of course if they did that, they would be singing a different tune Rant completed!!
On the topic of people who have it "easy", not being prepared to give those who have had a more difficult life a chance, a good example would be the situation with asylum seekers. I am not suggesting that the UK should open its doors to asylum seekers. The point I am making is that many people, often lead by the tabloid press, give them a really hard time. However, if you are born in a country that is so awful (economically, socially, politically etc) that you have to leave family & friends, & undertake a hazardous journey to a country where you know no-one in the hope of finding a better life, this just doesn't seem fair to me
. People who rage against asylum seekers should (in my view) put themselves in a similar situation & see how they would act... but of course if they did that, they would be singing a different tune Rant completed!! Quote by VenusnMars
Maybe there is some hope after all
Venusxxx
I hope so Venus I really do, mine are just starting school and after my sad time in school I pray they won't have to face it. As for the human condition we allow a special job for our most sneaky, underhanded individuals. We let them become MP's where they can be removed to a safe distance from humanity and not really affect anything much.
Ok that was nasty but when you hear them talking, ensuring they don't actually say anything for 10 minutes while never shutting up so the interviewer cant ask any awkward questions you do wonder.
I think most people are just scared of anyone different, and feel compelled to try and make them conform.
Its a shame, as most advances in civilisation have been by the very people that looked outside the box.
I've never really given a damn about what people thought of me.. they either liked me or didnt, either way i wont change how i am to try and please those that dont...whats the point in living an act?
It may not make for rapid promotion at work, but those friends i have, i know i can rely upon and they can rely upon me.
I feel that im the successful one because of this...
Its a shame, as most advances in civilisation have been by the very people that looked outside the box.
I've never really given a damn about what people thought of me.. they either liked me or didnt, either way i wont change how i am to try and please those that dont...whats the point in living an act?
It may not make for rapid promotion at work, but those friends i have, i know i can rely upon and they can rely upon me.
I feel that im the successful one because of this...
Sex God
Quote by VenusnMars
[My eldest daughter kept these ideals, and I ended up with a very troubled child who I had to home tutor, she never once wanted to join the crowd to make life a little easier for herself. She instead made some very good friends just like herself. Very intelligent alternative kids, who carry books in thier back pockets instead of bottles of cider! I love her mates to bits, but they carry a very adult look in thier eyes which no teen should have to contend with, and combined with their adolescence thier reactions to some of thier issues in life have left many a parent reeling!
.................
It`ll all come out well in the end for her. She dealt with many of her issues and has now started college. She is loving it. She approached me the other day telling me of two groups of kids she met who used to pick on her at school. One group who are now attending her college, came up and apologised. The other group were lounging about outside, and began with thier snide remarks when her new social group surrounded her and told them to pack it in. My daughter had the largest group :twisted:
She asked them what they were doing with thier lives, and was told that they weren`t going back to school, that they were going to look for jobs (which would explain the loitering then
She looked at them and said
`Well I think that`s really fucking stupid.`
and walked away without a backward glance
She was floating when she came home, and told me, `You know mum, you were right`
Maybe there is some hope after all
Venusxxx
Heartwarming. And very brave - not just the riposte at the end - the sticking to her principles from the start!
WOULD SOMEONE BE SO KIND AS TO EXPLAIN WHO SETS THE RULES AS TO WHAT IS NORMAL, WHY SO WE KICK AGAINST FELLOW HUMANS BECAUSE THEY ARE A LITTLE DIFFERENT , I.E. HOMOSEXAUALS, LESBIANS, C/DS , SWINGERS, IS THIS WORLD NOT BIG ENOUGH TO HAVE SPACE FOR ALL GENDERS, COLOURS, RELIGIONS, ECT :!: LEE {I AM WHAT I AM DONT GIVE A DAM }
This is a quote from a book by one of my favourite authors, unfortunately I think it sums up humanity rather too well.
"Man is capable of greatness, love, nobility, compassion. Yet never forget that the capacity for evil is infinite. It is a sad truth, that if you sit down now and think of the worst tortures that could ever be inflicted on another human being, they will already have been practised somewhere. If there is one sound that follows the march of humanity, it is the scream"
David Gemmell
"Man is capable of greatness, love, nobility, compassion. Yet never forget that the capacity for evil is infinite. It is a sad truth, that if you sit down now and think of the worst tortures that could ever be inflicted on another human being, they will already have been practised somewhere. If there is one sound that follows the march of humanity, it is the scream"
David Gemmell
