Knife Crime

5 Jul 2008

Quote by Peanut

Who said anything about it being right and proper? I'm saying that for the sort of children we've been talking about in this thread it's a necessity. The "right and proper" brigade are the pillocks who've instigated these stupid laws in the first place.

I'll just concentrate on this little piece of your sermon at present...
You mention "The sort of children we've been talking about in this thread"
I take it from this you mean those that are at present commiting these knife crimes ....
If its so easy to distinguish them then why dont we save a whole heap of bother and get you to go and hunt them down dunno

or are you simply summising that a particular kind of upbringing/home background makes them into youths who will go and stab someone :dunno:
I cant remeber the last time I read such a pile of baloney rolleyes

Ho hum, the point, so conveniently lost on you, is that if they had been disciplined 'firmly' in the first place then the likelihood of them turning out to be the sort of delinquent who does stab someone is reduced considerably.
Whereas the minimal physical discipline you are talking about is probably what taught them they can do what they want without any real consequences. Where do you think the expression "slap on the wrists" came from?
Now you know when you last read that amount of baloney. I just quoted it.
So my daughter is more likely to turn out to be a knife murderer then :dunno:
Think its you spouting baloney :roll:

5 Jul 2008

Quote by DeeCee
no offence fellow debaters,.... but your wide off the mark here and some of you havnt got a clue about this sort of thing at "street level".

Living in inner city Manchester for more than 30 years and having been a paramedic in inner city Manchester for 10 years I have pretty good idea of what it's like at street level if that helps?

5 Jul 2008

Quote by Steve

Who said anything about it being right and proper? I'm saying that for the sort of children we've been talking about in this thread it's a necessity. The "right and proper" brigade are the pillocks who've instigated these stupid laws in the first place.

I'll just concentrate on this little piece of your sermon at present...
You mention "The sort of children we've been talking about in this thread"
I take it from this you mean those that are at present commiting these knife crimes ....
If its so easy to distinguish them then why dont we save a whole heap of bother and get you to go and hunt them down dunno

or are you simply summising that a particular kind of upbringing/home background makes them into youths who will go and stab someone :dunno:
I cant remeber the last time I read such a pile of baloney rolleyes

Ho hum, the point, so conveniently lost on you, is that if they had been disciplined 'firmly' in the first place then the likelihood of them turning out to be the sort of delinquent who does stab someone is reduced considerably.
Whereas the minimal physical discipline you are talking about is probably what taught them they can do what they want without any real consequences. Where do you think the expression "slap on the wrists" came from?
Now you know when you last read that amount of baloney. I just quoted it.
So my daughter is more likely to turn out to be a knife murderer then :dunno:
Think its you spouting baloney :roll:
I have no idea what your daughter is likely to turn out like, but then neither have you.
I have no idea what your home life is like, neither do I know what her character is like. What I do know is that at 11 I could never have guessed what my daughters would be like at, say, 16. neither can you. In 5 years I thoroughly expect you to have your eyes opened.
What I do also know is that delinquents do not become delinquents overnight. There tends to be some foreshadowing.
I know you think I'm spouting baloney, but I think that you don't have a clue about the real world of delinquents and basing your opinions on the nature and behaviour of an 11 year old girl is naive to say the least.

5 Jul 2008

Quote by Steve
snip
no offence fellow debaters,.... but your wide off the mark here and some of you havnt got a clue about this sort of thing at "street level".snip

I have no experience of it at all and that is what is so worrying...
I cannot pass on any thoughts to my children of what kind of people do this kind of thing (mainly because I suspect there isn't a stereotypical kind of person anyway) so as they may steer clear of them...
as they say, knowledge is power.
Anais posted a great link.
steve, I like your honesty in this thread. No-one wants their kids to be victims (or perpetrators)and all parents should take some time out to try and understand what people are calling the
The way i see it is that there are 2 seperate issues.
1) causes
2) prevention
Id like to start off by saying that I dont think that there is much difference between the gangs of the past and those of today and why people join involve themselves in the same sort of things and violence is often the way that scores are settled.
i think the starting point would be to look at the data on who is getting stabbed/shot and who is doing the stabbing/shooting ( even if people arent caught the police still obtain descriptions. there are many parallels in different cases and i believe that (despite there obviously being "random" attacks) many of the youngsters involved share common denominators.
obviously this is mostly happening in deprived, inner-city areas. again, large groups of teenagers do congregate all over the country causing anti-social behaviour, but some of this IS different to the most troubling type of those committing criminal damage for example arent necessarily going to kill someone.
The channel 4 program highlighted further causes. Might i suggest trying to watch some repeats or see if the programs are on youtube or something. some of the experts who have been charged with the task of examining the issues are (imho) right on track.
prevention... thats another issue altogether.

5 Jul 2008

Quote by Peanut

no offence fellow debaters,.... but your wide off the mark here and some of you havnt got a clue about this sort of thing at "street level".

Living in inner city Manchester for more than 30 years and having been a paramedic in inner city Manchester for 10 years I have pretty good idea of what it's like at street level if that helps?
well it might help a little...but it sounds pretty limited and one-sided to me.
there are 2 sides to this victims AND perpetrators.
have you spent much time with the criminal element involved in this sort of things or do you tend really to see only the aftermath?
The fact that you posted the "hoody" comment shows me that your idea of "pretty good" is a tad of an overstatement.
some times peanut theres no harm in accepting that you dont happen to know bits of experience that you have dont render you an expert IMO. passionate yes, but unfortunately blinkered.

5 Jul 2008

Quote by Firelizard
We have a society where a parent can lay down rules, a child can say "F*** that" and the parent has no resources to combat the behaviour.

Actually there is an alternative. I chose to ignore all this political correctness bollocks by taking a rather fast moving hand to my youngest's ass and thighs when she overstepped the boundaries of good behaviour. Her response, as I'm a dad who doesn't live with her, was to report the fact to her school social worker who in turn reported the 'child abuse' to her boss. I in turn received several phone calls warning me that it was an offence. They in turn received several epithets from me , including "fuck you, I'm her Dad and if I choose that way to punish her then that's what I'll do. If you don't like it then arrest me". Strangely enough I heard nothing else on the matter.
For those concerned that I may be physically assaulting a young child, she was just 15 at the time. The punishment she got was for attempting to physically bully another kid at school. My technique was to let her know what it's like to feel bullied and to see if she liked it. I made it quite clear that I wasn't teaching her how to bully.
I must just say in answer to this though that the child of one of my relatives was brought home by the police one night and said child started spouting off about what his father could and could not do to him and he was quickly put straight by the police officer that if his father needed to use reasonable force to chastise him then the police certainly wouldnt have a problem with it.
Unfortunately, this scene isn't always repeated. I've always advocated physical punishment. I used the term "child who knows how to manipulatethe system" deliberately. And then when you make an enemy of the SS by standing up to them......you can find yourself walking on a knife edge.....
Many kids just don't have any consequences to fear any more. If you can reason with them, fantastic. But what if you can't?

5 Jul 2008

Quote by Stormwalker

Its known that an weapon amnesty, whilst great and useful has found that it is the more law abiding citizens who use it. (Last time I went along to hand some in, they showed me some of the other weapons given in and I was amazed at how lethal looking they are).
I thought that anything that could be classed as an offensive weapon like a screw driver if used in a threatening way was included in the legislation? Although that may depend on the situation I guess...
One of the other things I found is that *some youths* make there own weapons if they cant get hold of a knife or an alternative...when I spoke to the police they said they included these as well...thank goodness!

:shock: Anais tooled up.....well!!
I have everything but the kitchen sink in my handbag rotflmao

All weapons were confiscated from young people...we regularly handed weapons in as we didn't like them being on the premises too long for our own safety smile

5 Jul 2008

Quote by Phuckers
Sorry but bollocks :shock:
Sorry but there is no need to smack hard enough to leave a mark...
If a child is raised with values then a slight smack is more than sufficient....
See my daughter for proof of that....
A light tap on the backside devastates her and she is 11 now...
My son is a different kettle of fish in as much as he suffers from a mental illness but still doesn't get smacked hard enough to leave marks....
Its bollocks to think its right and proper to smack so hard as to leave marks regardless of the reasons....
And i fail to see what the level of stubborness of a child has to do with anything but no doubt you will attempt to justify your actions in a wee while....

Excatly thats bollocks indeed a smack should be within reason no need to bruise your kids in the name of punishment or discipline
Looks like someone doesn't read. I specifically said not to bruise. The marks I'm referring to are red marks, not a full on bruise.
I just love the way people see what they want to see.
allow me to quote your own words pls
"Pain is required otherwise there is no point in smacking in the first inflict enough short,sharp pain to an older child requires sufficient force to leave a mark of some not reffering to bruising by the way .Im refering to a red you dont want to leave a weal then dont bother smacking use some other method of punishment"

If you're going to quote me can you please copy and paste. The above was not written by me, if it had been there would have been correct spelling and correct punctuation.

what the difference between a bruise and a red mark???not every kid is pale or have a skin colour to produce red marks after short and sharp pain

Duh! A red mark is a red mark and a bruise is a bruise. If you don't know the difference then that's your problem.

well i rest my case,off to see about a goat
Good evening all

Rest your case? I hope to god you're not a lawyer in real life.

5 Jul 2008

Quote by DeeCee

no offence fellow debaters,.... but your wide off the mark here and some of you havnt got a clue about this sort of thing at "street level".

Living in inner city Manchester for more than 30 years and having been a paramedic in inner city Manchester for 10 years I have pretty good idea of what it's like at street level if that helps?
well it might help a little...but it sounds pretty limited and one-sided to me.

Hmm, living in it and working in it? Limited?
I have two kids who also live in the inner city, this means that I also come into contact with other kids in the inner city. Still too limited for you?

there are 2 sides to this victims AND perpetrators.

Of course there are, but as far as this thread is concerned we were talking about the kids doing the doing, not the kids being done to.

have you spent much time with the criminal element involved in this sort of things or do you tend really to see only the aftermath?

I haven't spent lots of time with the perpetrators, I was a paramedic, not a policeman, but I've spent considerably more time than the average person. I also don't exist in a vacuum.
It wasn't just the victims I came into contact with. Round here a perpetrator on Wednesday is just as likely to be a victim on Saturday.

The fact that you posted the "hoody" comment shows me that your idea of "pretty good" is a tad of an overstatement.

I'd love to hear how you come to that conclusion.

some times peanut theres no harm in accepting that you dont happen to know bits of experience that you have dont render you an expert IMO. passionate yes, but unfortunately blinkered.

I'm not an expert, I've not attempted to show that I am. I'd be grateful if you could show me where I attempted to do so, so that I can make sure it doesn't happen again.
What I have attempted to do is show that what I say is backed up with experience. There's a distinct difference between the two.
I have my own prejudices yes, but being blinkered isn't even remotely accurate.
I also know that the upward trend curve of juvenile crime pretty much matches the downward curve of declining parental and educational discipline in the 80s, 90s and 00s.
Anyway, now that we know that I'm not an expert, what about your expertise in the subject. Are you an expert or just a Grauniad reader?

5 Jul 2008

first i apologise i havent read this whole thread, i have been away from this site for a while but my partner
's last post. was about me and how i got stabbed numerous times, for i guess, was my fault interfering
in a couple having a really bad physical(sp?)fight i saw a guy hit this lady tried to break it up i got stabbed bout 20ish times and the woman i thought i was helping put the boot in as well. if u check my partners post littlemiss2hot2handle she talks about it there (it was time ago,folks) i thought i was doing the right thing seeing a woman getting punched asking her if she was ok then getting stabbed. police came as i was lying on the floor told the police my story with my girlfriend as witness nothing came of it. i was in hospital for weeks. i lost faith in mankind,police and everything. no justice in what i belived to be the right thing. if you get caught carry a knife it should be classed the same as a gun and u should at least get 5yrs imprisonment. but thats just my opinion.
chief moo

5 Jul 2008

Quote by DeeCee
Anyone been watching the Disarming Britain series on Channel 4?
Been quite interesting.
The Street Weapons Commission are also inviting written submissions from people who have ideas on how to tackle street crime (there is a remit for this).

Obviously not... judging from the "ideas" being flouted here.
This is a social issue that seemingly is better understood by looking at the data ( those responsible/ circumstances/ geography/ re-offending data etc RATHER than using mainstream MEDIA as the benchmark.
no offence fellow debaters,.... but your wide off the mark here and some of you havnt got a clue about this sort of thing at "street level".
:thumbup:
It makes me mad that all of a sudden, because London is suffering an upsurge in knife deaths, that its headline news and the politicians want to do something with it.
I've watched, sometimes up close, young people die on a regular basis in the east end of glasgow as a result of knife attacks for the last 17 years. Knife murders no longer make the front page of the local newspapers up here any more.
Stabbings are so common that many of the worlds top surgeons train at Glasgow Royal Infirmary and if it wasn't for their skill and the skills of Police and Paramedics then the number of knife deaths would treble anyway.
Harder sentencing wont make a lot of these kids stop carrying knives sadly, not this generation or perhaps the next one but if we start young enough now then who knows......

5 Jul 2008

some reading if you're interested

5 Jul 2008

Quote by the_Laird

some reading if you're interested

Glasgow was reported on one of the evenings in Disarming Britain.
The report above makes scary reading and brings home everyday issues that some communities live with. Here in Bristol (one particular part) there a number of knife related incidents that like Glasgow go unreported (judging by the report its as bad as Glasgow). Those incidents are dealt with in other ways on the streets, again retaliation goes unreported as it *not the way if works*. Its another world that many don't hear about... or want to. Its like another level of society that goes on unnoticed and unheard of the majority of time.
Even though the newspaper report is two years old I don't believe for a minute that the figures for knife crime have changed drastically for Glasgow or the gang culture that is so prevalent in some communities is any different today.
I agree with the_Laird that we need to start with the younger ones... not sure about Glasgow but most of the work here in Bristol stopped with the 8 to 11 yr age group due to changes in Local Government. Very little work happens with them, yet they hang around doors of youth centres etc wanting to go in but not allowed.

6 Jul 2008

Quote by Peanut
Sorry but bollocks :shock:
Sorry but there is no need to smack hard enough to leave a mark...
If a child is raised with values then a slight smack is more than sufficient....
See my daughter for proof of that....
A light tap on the backside devastates her and she is 11 now...
My son is a different kettle of fish in as much as he suffers from a mental illness but still doesn't get smacked hard enough to leave marks....
Its bollocks to think its right and proper to smack so hard as to leave marks regardless of the reasons....
And i fail to see what the level of stubborness of a child has to do with anything but no doubt you will attempt to justify your actions in a wee while....

Excatly thats bollocks indeed a smack should be within reason no need to bruise your kids in the name of punishment or discipline
Looks like someone doesn't read. I specifically said not to bruise. The marks I'm referring to are red marks, not a full on bruise.
I just love the way people see what they want to see.
allow me to quote your own words pls
"Pain is required otherwise there is no point in smacking in the first inflict enough short,sharp pain to an older child requires sufficient force to leave a mark of some not reffering to bruising by the way .Im refering to a red you dont want to leave a weal then dont bother smacking use some other method of punishment"

If you're going to quote me can you please copy and paste. The above was not written by me, if it had been there would have been correct spelling and correct punctuation.

what the difference between a bruise and a red mark???not every kid is pale or have a skin colour to produce red marks after short and sharp pain

Duh! A red mark is a red mark and a bruise is a bruise. If you don't know the difference then that's your problem.

well i rest my case,off to see about a goat
Good evening all

Rest your case? I hope to god you're not a lawyer in real life.
dunno

cheap shot

6 Jul 2008

Quote by Stormwalker
Until we stop giving children rights beyond what they are capable of understanding, and start punishing them when they do wrong this will never go away. We remove the right of adults to discipline a child, parent, teacher or police officer makes no difference, these days the child knows that they cannot be punished in any meaningful way
We sit in the middle ground of our self-inflicted PC world and fear to offend anyone and in so doing we offend everyone. Until we stop giving people rights they neither deserve nor understand, until we stop thinking respect should be given instead of earned, until we punish the wrongdoer rather than the victim this will go on. We promote the rights of the individual, without attaching any social responsibility to them, and are shocked when no responsibility is shown.
Young people have always felt that the world owes them something and that they are somehow within their rights to take what they want, but it was in the past tempered with the knowledge that the price of such arrogance was severe. This is no longer true. We give our children full rights and powers of protection without demanding anything in return. We expect them to behave within our rules but give them the freedom to ignore any they choose to, only for us to show surprise when they do just that.
We feed them on a diet of mindless violence via computer games, music and films and are shocked when they glory in the violence they use as entertainment. We place the shallow and talent less on pedestals and laud them as role models, fostering the belief that celebrity and wealth is all that is important, while the method of achieving it matters not one bit.
We have no heroes anymore. Those we should look up to cheat steal and lie then hide behind the laws that are supposed to punish them. Those that are punished are then invited onto daytime TV and the gossip rags to tell their story and receive huge rewards for so doing. The heroes of the young are shallow money orientated and self-indulgent. Kids aspire to be reality TV stars, WAGS or Gangsters. The idea of selflessness is ridiculed and derided. The cult of self is all powerful. Give one of these young people a knife and ten more will carry one for protection, or to look hard or for respect. Put ten knives in a fight and people will get killed.
Now I know these are generalisations, but the thing with a generalisation, is in general it’s not too far from the truth.
Disclaimer: I know not all young people are like this, but they are not the ones generally doing the stabbing.

:worship: :worship: