Knife Crime

5 Jul 2008

Quote by Peanut
I must just say in answer to this though that the child of one of my relatives was brought home by the police one night and said child started spouting off about what his father could and could not do to him and he was quickly put straight by the police officer that if his father needed to use reasonable force to chastise him then the police certainly wouldnt have a problem with it.

These kids seem to forget that a lot of Police staff are parents themselves and don't necessarily agree with this PC bullshit that is having the effect of declining discipline and increasing juvenile crime.
It is actually perfectly legal to use a smack etc to discipline your child so long as you dont strike them hard enough to leave a mark...
I was told this by social services as I was being investigated by them as my lad made accusations of physical abuse against me...
Only difference being that he actually lives in the same house as me and from then on I no longer wish to be left alone for more than a second with him for my own protection....
What kind of world makes parents feel that vunerable ??
Edited to add
The accusations were unfounded as Social Services knew from the start but they had to follow procedure and investigate.

5 Jul 2008

Quote by Firelizard
I am 43, 5ft 1 and can be quite young looking sometimes....

I'm sorry for the loss of your 1" since writing your profile.
Ying and yang... gain an F and lose an inch. lol

5 Jul 2008

Hey!!! my inch is still there I just checked :shock:

5 Jul 2008

Quote by fabio
what would I do........ one last national amnasty to hand them all in, turn them all over.....
then after that...... anyone caught carrying a knife and doesn't have a bloody good excuse gets 5 years... no ifs, no buts, no exceptions

I forgot this bit, as I said before on a similar thread, we don't need new laws against carrying a knife, we just need to prosecute the people who stab people with a knife. Ban all knives and they will use screwdrivers, ban screwdrivers and they will use axes etc. The weapon is unimportant, the use to harm is the key. It's pointless criminalising people for just having a knife if they have done nothing wrong with it.

5 Jul 2008

Quote by Steve
It is actually perfectly legal to use a smack etc to discipline your child so long as you dont strike them hard enough to leave a mark...

No point in doing it if it doesn't leave a mark.
The thing to remember is that for it to progress to court the Police have to be involved, alos evidence has to be involved.
By-and-large the average bobby tends to have large amounts of common-sense and the odds of being arrested for leaving a hand print on junior's arse is next to nil. On the other hand if you kick the crap out of the kid and leave large bruises in areas that aren't traditionally used for child chastisement then the odds are in favour of one getting a ringside seat at your local Magistrates court.
Kids need boundaries, these days they either aren't given any or the boundaries they do get are far too wide. This human rights bollocks gives them boundaries that have far too many gaps for them to sneak through.

5 Jul 2008

Quote by Firelizard
Hey!!! my inch is still there I just checked :shock:

Ah, but checkout Stormy's wink

5 Jul 2008

Quote by Stormwalker
As for the bit in blue,what's the difference where you are when you are attacked? you will be in just as much danger in a car park as in your own kitchen.

if you can tell me why if you are in a car park you would ever have a knife, then I would love to hear it.....
I was trying to make the point that no one should have be allowed to have a knife in public areas unless for a bloody good reason, which is why i am not buying the self defence arguement outside of the home, your home so to speak

5 Jul 2008

Quote by Stormwalker
The weapon is unimportant, the use to harm is the key.

Don't forget the ever-popular "intent" though. That's another handy little way of nabbing the scrotes too.

5 Jul 2008

Quote by Peanut

It is actually perfectly legal to use a smack etc to discipline your child so long as you dont strike them hard enough to leave a mark...

No point in doing it if it doesn't leave a mark.
The thing to remember is that for it to progress to court the Police have to be involved, alos evidence has to be involved.
By-and-large the average bobby tends to have large amounts of common-sense and the odds of being arrested for leaving a hand print on junior's arse is next to nil. On the other hand if you kick the crap out of the kid and leave large bruises in areas that aren't traditionally used for child chastisement then the odds are in favour of one getting a ringside seat at your local Magistrates court.
Kids need boundaries, these days they either aren't given any or the boundaries they do get are far too wide. This human rights bollocks gives them boundaries that have far too many gaps for them to sneak through.
Its down to the child at the end of the day..
If they wish to presue the complaint formally then the Police have no option but to persue it..
As for not worth smacking unless you leave a mark.......That comment makes my blood boil....
If the child is smacked that little then the slightest tap is enough to make them sit up and look...
On the other hand if the frequently get smacked then eventually it has to get harder and harder inm order to make them think.....
Absolutely no need what so ever to smack a child so hard asto leave a mark.......None at all....

5 Jul 2008

Quote by fabio

As for the bit in blue,what's the difference where you are when you are attacked? you will be in just as much danger in a car park as in your own kitchen.

if you can tell me why if you are in a car park you would ever have a knife, then I would love to hear it.....
I was trying to make the point that no one should have be allowed to have a knife in public areas unless for a bloody good reason, which is why i am not buying the self defence arguement outside of the home, your home so to speak
There is the point that the odds of being mugged in one's kitchen sort of pales into insignificance when compared to the figures of mugging in dark multi-storey car parks.

5 Jul 2008

Quote by Stormwalker

what would I do........ one last national amnasty to hand them all in, turn them all over.....
then after that...... anyone caught carrying a knife and doesn't have a bloody good excuse gets 5 years... no ifs, no buts, no exceptions

I forgot this bit, as I said before on a similar thread, we don't need new laws against carrying a knife, we just need to prosecute the people who stab people with a knife. Ban all knives and they will use screwdrivers, ban screwdrivers and they will use axes etc. The weapon is unimportant, the use to harm is the key. It's pointless criminalising people for just having a knife if they have done nothing wrong with it.
Its known that an weapon amnesty, whilst great and useful has found that it is the more law abiding citizens who use it. (Last time I went along to had some in, they showed me some of the other weapons given in and I was amazed at how lethal looking they are).
I thought that anything that could be classed as an offensive weapon like a screw driver if used in a threatening way was included in the legislation? Although that may depend on the situation I guess...
One of the other things I found is that *some youths* make there own weapons if they cant get hold of a knife or an alternative...when I spoke to the police they said they included these as well...thank goodness!

5 Jul 2008

Quote by Steve

It is actually perfectly legal to use a smack etc to discipline your child so long as you dont strike them hard enough to leave a mark...

No point in doing it if it doesn't leave a mark.
The thing to remember is that for it to progress to court the Police have to be involved, alos evidence has to be involved.
By-and-large the average bobby tends to have large amounts of common-sense and the odds of being arrested for leaving a hand print on junior's arse is next to nil. On the other hand if you kick the crap out of the kid and leave large bruises in areas that aren't traditionally used for child chastisement then the odds are in favour of one getting a ringside seat at your local Magistrates court.
Kids need boundaries, these days they either aren't given any or the boundaries they do get are far too wide. This human rights bollocks gives them boundaries that have far too many gaps for them to sneak through.
Its down to the child at the end of the day..
If they wish to presue the complaint formally then the Police have no option but to persue it..

They have no option but to record it, how they pursue it is up to them.

As for not worth smacking unless you leave a mark.......That comment makes my blood boil....

Apparently your kids weren't as strong minded and as stubborn as mine.

If the child is smacked that little then the slightest tap is enough to make them sit up and look...

Yes, that's how it always starts.

On the other hand if the frequently get smacked then eventually it has to get harder and harder inm order to make them think.....

Or to be reminded of what happens if they don't toe the line.
In my experience an initial physical chastisement has a variable half-life dependant on the child. Most of the time the memory of that punishment is sufficient and doesn't require any further physical chastisement.
Obviously there is no necessity to smack har enough to mark a 5 year old say, but get above 10 or so and the sound isn't enough to frighten. Pain is required otherwise there is no point in smacking in the first place. To inflict enough short, sharp pain to an older child requires sufficient force to leave a mark of some sort. I'm not referring to bruising by the way, I'm referring to a red mark. If you don't want to leave a weal then don't bother smacking, use some other method of punishment.

Absolutely no need what so ever to smack a child so hard asto leave a mark.......None at all....

Sorry, but bollocks. See above.
If your kids respond to a firm voice then great, some kids don't though, and the sort of kid that is going to be eventually capable of going out and stabbing another is not likely to respond to the sort of smack you are proposing.
NB: "Bollocks" = Peanut-speak for "I strongly disagree" and doesn't mean I think your opinion is rubbish.

5 Jul 2008

Sorry but bollocks :shock:
Sorry but there is no need to smack hard enough to leave a mark...
If a child is raised with values then a slight smack is more than sufficient....
See my daughter for proof of that....
A light tap on the backside devastates her and she is 11 now...
My son is a different kettle of fish in as much as he suffers from a mental illness but still doesn't get smacked hard enough to leave marks....
Its bollocks to think its right and proper to smack so hard as to leave marks regardless of the reasons....
And i fail to see what the level of stubborness of a child has to do with anything but no doubt you will attempt to justify your actions in a wee while....

5 Jul 2008

Quote by anais

what would I do........ one last national amnasty to hand them all in, turn them all over.....
then after that...... anyone caught carrying a knife and doesn't have a bloody good excuse gets 5 years... no ifs, no buts, no exceptions

I forgot this bit, as I said before on a similar thread, we don't need new laws against carrying a knife, we just need to prosecute the people who stab people with a knife. Ban all knives and they will use screwdrivers, ban screwdrivers and they will use axes etc. The weapon is unimportant, the use to harm is the key. It's pointless criminalising people for just having a knife if they have done nothing wrong with it.
Its known that an weapon amnesty, whilst great and useful has found that it is the more law abiding citizens who use it. (Last time I went along to had some in, they showed me some of the other weapons given in and I was amazed at how lethal looking they are).
I thought that anything that could be classed as an offensive weapon like a screw driver if used in a threatening way was included in the legislation? Although that may depend on the situation I guess...
One of the other things I found is that *some youths* make there own weapons if they cant get hold of a knife or an alternative...when I spoke to the police they said they included these as well...thank goodness!
I think you'll find that anything in the wrong circumstances can be legally defined as an offensive weapon, including your car or a rolled up newspaper. It all depends on what you are doing with it at the time.

5 Jul 2008

Quote by Steve
Sorry but bollocks :shock:
Sorry but there is no need to smack hard enough to leave a mark...
If a child is raised with values then a slight smack is more than sufficient....
See my daughter for proof of that....
A light tap on the backside devastates her and she is 11 now...
My son is a different kettle of fish in as much as he suffers from a mental illness but still doesn't get smacked hard enough to leave marks....
Its bollocks to think its right and proper to smack so hard as to leave marks regardless of the reasons....
And i fail to see what the level of stubborness of a child has to do with anything but no doubt you will attempt to justify your actions in a wee while....

Excatly thats bollocks indeed a smack should be within reason no need to bruise your kids in the name of punishment or discipline

5 Jul 2008

Quote by Phuckers
Sorry but bollocks :shock:
Sorry but there is no need to smack hard enough to leave a mark...
If a child is raised with values then a slight smack is more than sufficient....
See my daughter for proof of that....
A light tap on the backside devastates her and she is 11 now...
My son is a different kettle of fish in as much as he suffers from a mental illness but still doesn't get smacked hard enough to leave marks....
Its bollocks to think its right and proper to smack so hard as to leave marks regardless of the reasons....
And i fail to see what the level of stubborness of a child has to do with anything but no doubt you will attempt to justify your actions in a wee while....

Excatly thats bollocks indeed a smack should be within reason no need to bruise your kids in the name of punishment or discipline
Feck me :shock:
We agree on something :thumbup:

5 Jul 2008

Thats one of the things I love about this forum Steve. There can be someone you find you constantly disagree with and I myself get abit disappointed with that because I feel I am failing to connect with that person on any level and then along comes a subject where you find you both have a middle ground and it's like a little ray of sunshine smile

5 Jul 2008

Quote by Pete_sw

what would I do........ one last national amnasty to hand them all in, turn them all over.....
then after that...... anyone caught carrying a knife and doesn't have a bloody good excuse gets 5 years... no ifs, no buts, no exceptions

I forgot this bit, as I said before on a similar thread, we don't need new laws against carrying a knife, we just need to prosecute the people who stab people with a knife. Ban all knives and they will use screwdrivers, ban screwdrivers and they will use axes etc. The weapon is unimportant, the use to harm is the key. It's pointless criminalising people for just having a knife if they have done nothing wrong with it.
Its known that an weapon amnesty, whilst great and useful has found that it is the more law abiding citizens who use it. (Last time I went along to had some in, they showed me some of the other weapons given in and I was amazed at how lethal looking they are).
I thought that anything that could be classed as an offensive weapon like a screw driver if used in a threatening way was included in the legislation? Although that may depend on the situation I guess...
One of the other things I found is that *some youths* make there own weapons if they cant get hold of a knife or an alternative...when I spoke to the police they said they included these as well...thank goodness!
I think you'll find that anything in the wrong circumstances can be legally defined as an offensive weapon, including your car or a rolled up newspaper. It all depends on what you are doing with it at the time.
fabio used the word intentwhich can used to determine each case and circumstance of knife(weapon)pocession

5 Jul 2008

Quote by Steve
Sorry but bollocks :shock:

Actually I like to see that. There's nothing so infuriating to me as someone who holds back on what they think!

Sorry but there is no need to smack hard enough to leave a mark...
If a child is raised with values then a slight smack is more than sufficient....
See my daughter for proof of that....
A light tap on the backside devastates her and she is 11 now...
My son is a different kettle of fish in as much as he suffers from a mental illness but still doesn't get smacked hard enough to leave marks....

I think that generalising based on what seems to be a rather non-standard state of affairs at your home is a tad naive.

Its bollocks to think its right and proper to smack so hard as to leave marks regardless of the reasons....

Who said anything about it being right and proper? I'm saying that for the sort of children we've been talking about in this thread it's a necessity. The "right and proper" brigade are the pillocks who've instigated these stupid laws in the first place.
'Right and proper' doesn't come into it. What ever works is the name of the game. Within reason of course, I don't propose that actual physical damage is caused.

And i fail to see what the level of stubborness of a child has to do with anything but no doubt you will attempt to justify your actions in a wee while....

I don't intend to justify it. It was something taught by my Dad and as a result I have never stabbed anyone and generally know right from wrong. I did the same thing with both daughters and generally speaking they do too. With a slight interruption when my daughter went on a bullying streak but my 'non-right and proper' methods sorted that out quite efficiently and it hasn't been repeated. Of course tt was most probably helped by the fact that the authorities did not help her in trying to get her own back on me, but whatever works. biggrin

5 Jul 2008

Quote by Phuckers
Sorry but bollocks :shock:
Sorry but there is no need to smack hard enough to leave a mark...
If a child is raised with values then a slight smack is more than sufficient....
See my daughter for proof of that....
A light tap on the backside devastates her and she is 11 now...
My son is a different kettle of fish in as much as he suffers from a mental illness but still doesn't get smacked hard enough to leave marks....
Its bollocks to think its right and proper to smack so hard as to leave marks regardless of the reasons....
And i fail to see what the level of stubborness of a child has to do with anything but no doubt you will attempt to justify your actions in a wee while....

Excatly thats bollocks indeed a smack should be within reason no need to bruise your kids in the name of punishment or discipline
Looks like someone doesn't read. I specifically said not to bruise. The marks I'm referring to are red marks, not a full on bruise.
I just love the way people see what they want to see.

5 Jul 2008

Quote by Steve
Sorry but bollocks :shock:
Sorry but there is no need to smack hard enough to leave a mark...
If a child is raised with values then a slight smack is more than sufficient....
See my daughter for proof of that....
A light tap on the backside devastates her and she is 11 now...
My son is a different kettle of fish in as much as he suffers from a mental illness but still doesn't get smacked hard enough to leave marks....
Its bollocks to think its right and proper to smack so hard as to leave marks regardless of the reasons....
And i fail to see what the level of stubborness of a child has to do with anything but no doubt you will attempt to justify your actions in a wee while....

Excatly thats bollocks indeed a smack should be within reason no need to bruise your kids in the name of punishment or discipline
Feck me :shock:
We agree on something :thumbup:
ha ha you shouldnt be suprised,i do agree and support your opinion because they are right and practical, then again its a topic which is close to your heart due to your contact with the social workers..which i can only wish you the very best

5 Jul 2008

Quote by Peanut
Who said anything about it being right and proper? I'm saying that for the sort of children we've been talking about in this thread it's a necessity. The "right and proper" brigade are the pillocks who've instigated these stupid laws in the first place.

I'll just concentrate on this little piece of your sermon at present...
You mention "The sort of children we've been talking about in this thread"
I take it from this you mean those that are at present commiting these knife crimes ....
If its so easy to distinguish them then why dont we save a whole heap of bother and get you to go and hunt them down dunno

or are you simply summising that a particular kind of upbringing/home background makes them into youths who will go and stab someone :dunno:
I cant remeber the last time I read such a pile of baloney rolleyes

5 Jul 2008

Quote by Phuckers

Feck me :shock:
We agree on something :thumbup:

ha ha you shouldnt be suprised,i do agree and support your opinion because they are right and practical, then again its a topic which is close to your heart due to your contact with the social workers..which i can only wish you the very best
Thank you for your concern...
At present the situation is dealt with in as much as the complaint has not been made formal but the fact still remains that for my own protection I will not allow myself to be left alone with him.....
Its a sad state of affairs but its my only option...

5 Jul 2008

Quote by fabio

As for the bit in blue,what's the difference where you are when you are attacked? you will be in just as much danger in a car park as in your own kitchen.

if you can tell me why if you are in a car park you would ever have a knife, then I would love to hear it.....
I was trying to make the point that no one should have be allowed to have a knife in public areas unless for a bloody good reason, which is why i am not buying the self defence arguement outside of the home, your home so to speak
Sorry Fabio , I was talking generally about self defence rather than knife specific meaning that you are as likely or more so, to be attacked outside your home as in it and therefore the location of the attack is immaterial. Crossed wire there.
To answer your question though, if I was returning from a fishing trip to my car for example I would be perfectly likely to have a knife with me.
I'm not suggesting either that you should carry a knife for self defence, just to clear that bit up before it gets out of hand.

5 Jul 2008

Quote by anais
Anyone been watching the Disarming Britain series on Channel 4?
Been quite interesting.
The Street Weapons Commission are also inviting written submissions from people who have ideas on how to tackle street crime (there is a remit for this).

Obviously not... judging from the "ideas" being flouted here.
This is a social issue that seemingly is better understood by looking at the data ( those responsible/ circumstances/ geography/ re-offending data etc RATHER than using mainstream MEDIA as the benchmark.
no offence fellow debaters,.... but your wide off the mark here and some of you havnt got a clue about this sort of thing at "street level".

5 Jul 2008

Quote by Peanut
Hey!!! my inch is still there I just checked :shock:

Ah, but checkout Stormy's wink

It was a best guess redface

5 Jul 2008

Quote by DeeCee
snip
no offence fellow debaters,.... but your wide off the mark here and some of you havnt got a clue about this sort of thing at "street level".snip

I have no experience of it at all and that is what is so worrying...
I cannot pass on any thoughts to my children of what kind of people do this kind of thing (mainly because I suspect there isn't a stereotypical kind of person anyway) so as they may steer clear of them...

5 Jul 2008

Quote by Steve

Who said anything about it being right and proper? I'm saying that for the sort of children we've been talking about in this thread it's a necessity. The "right and proper" brigade are the pillocks who've instigated these stupid laws in the first place.

I'll just concentrate on this little piece of your sermon at present...
You mention "The sort of children we've been talking about in this thread"
I take it from this you mean those that are at present commiting these knife crimes ....
If its so easy to distinguish them then why dont we save a whole heap of bother and get you to go and hunt them down dunno

or are you simply summising that a particular kind of upbringing/home background makes them into youths who will go and stab someone :dunno:
I cant remeber the last time I read such a pile of baloney rolleyes

Ho hum, the point, so conveniently lost on you, is that if they had been disciplined 'firmly' in the first place then the likelihood of them turning out to be the sort of delinquent who does stab someone is reduced considerably.
Whereas the minimal physical discipline you are talking about is probably what taught them they can do what they want without any real consequences. Where do you think the expression "slap on the wrists" came from?
Now you know when you last read that amount of baloney. I just quoted it.

5 Jul 2008

Quote by Peanut
Sorry but bollocks :shock:
Sorry but there is no need to smack hard enough to leave a mark...
If a child is raised with values then a slight smack is more than sufficient....
See my daughter for proof of that....
A light tap on the backside devastates her and she is 11 now...
My son is a different kettle of fish in as much as he suffers from a mental illness but still doesn't get smacked hard enough to leave marks....
Its bollocks to think its right and proper to smack so hard as to leave marks regardless of the reasons....
And i fail to see what the level of stubborness of a child has to do with anything but no doubt you will attempt to justify your actions in a wee while....

Excatly thats bollocks indeed a smack should be within reason no need to bruise your kids in the name of punishment or discipline
Looks like someone doesn't read. I specifically said not to bruise. The marks I'm referring to are red marks, not a full on bruise.
I just love the way people see what they want to see.
allow me to quote your own words pls
"Pain is required otherwise there is no point in smacking in the first inflict enough short,sharp pain to an older child requires sufficient force to leave a mark of some not reffering to bruising by the way .Im refering to a red you dont want to leave a weal then dont bother smacking use some other method of punishment"
what the difference between a bruise and a red mark???not every kid is pale or have a skin colour to produce red marks after short and sharp pain
well i rest my case,off to see about a goat
Good evening all

5 Jul 2008

Quote by anais
Its known that an weapon amnesty, whilst great and useful has found that it is the more law abiding citizens who use it. (Last time I went along to hand some in, they showed me some of the other weapons given in and I was amazed at how lethal looking they are).
I thought that anything that could be classed as an offensive weapon like a screw driver if used in a threatening way was included in the legislation? Although that may depend on the situation I guess...
One of the other things I found is that *some youths* make there own weapons if they cant get hold of a knife or an alternative...when I spoke to the police they said they included these as well...thank goodness!

:shock: Anais tooled up.....well!!