Knife crime

17 May 2008

Quote by fabio
I would object to being stopped and searched on a whim by a police officer Just because a drunken/angry/vindictive/wronged (take your pick) person can't keep his hands to himself and stabs someone. If a police officer has just reason to believe I might be carrying an illegal weapon or something that I intend to use illegally then obviously do the search :thumbup: but if I have to factor in an extra 15 minutes to be stopped and searched every time I leave the house I'm not going to get a lot done in my day am I?

I hate to say this... but welcome to the world of "stop and search" sad

I have been thru this for years... and I suspect I will keep going thru this for years to come.....
I forgot to give you this earlier Fabs kiss

17 May 2008

Quote by firelizard
Yep :thumbup: (Thanks Splen xx)
The thing with laws is that only the people that can be bothered to obey them on a particular day at a particular time will do so.
If you ban guns, people will still carry guns and if you ban knive's people will still carry knives.
TM Stormy (Who couldnt be bothered to post )

If we are talking about this country then guns are banned, unless you have a license and belong to a gun club. If people cannot see that the current laws are not detering people from carrying knives, then I am confused. :shock:
Of course there are some trades people who have to carry a knife of sorts but I am not talking about those people, I am talking about the ferel youths out there in gangs who are carrying them, and threatening people with them. Mugging I think the word is. lol

As I said earlier in this thread about what this Government promised about tough on crime. No there not at all, there is not enough prison spaces left to send people too, so they give them a smack on their pandies.
Knife crime is out of control and until a more effective way is used to deal with the people who carry them to commit crime, there will always be a problem.
"
Is knife crime in the UK on the increase? - a brief update
Newsflash 28th October 2007 - Channel 5 news;
Figures obtained under the freedom of information act show that there is a knife crime committed in the UK every 24 minutes! - in fact the figures show that there have been 5,500 serious knife crimes in the UK in just 3 months ". Sort of sums it up for me.

17 May 2008

Quote by kentswingers777
Yep :thumbup: (Thanks Splen xx)
The thing with laws is that only the people that can be bothered to obey them on a particular day at a particular time will do so.
If you ban guns, people will still carry guns and if you ban knive's people will still carry knives.
TM Stormy (Who couldnt be bothered to post )

If we are talking about this country then guns are banned, unless you have a license and belong to a gun club.Hand guns yes, shotguns and section 1 firearms need a licenceIf people cannot see that the current laws are not detering people from carrying knives, then I am confused. :shock: As I have said, banning the carrying of a knife will not stop lawbreakers from doing it, the clue is in the name Kent.
Of course there are some trades people who have to carry a knife of sorts but I am not talking about those people, I am talking about the ferel youths out there in gangs who are carrying them, and threatening people with them. Mugging I think the word is. lol

We already have laws to deal with mugging, robbery and murder..is someone muggs with a knife... use the existing laws, if someone muggs with a gun... use the existing laws, if someone muggs with a fish...use the existing laws. the laws are there already.
As I said earlier in this thread about what this Government promised about tough on crime. No there not at all, there is not enough prison spaces left to send people too, so they give them a smack on their pandies. In your first post you wanted to send people to prison "no questions asked" for having a knife...where do you think you will find the space to put them all?
Knife crime is out of control and until a more effective way is used to deal with the people who carry them to commit crime, there will always be a problem. so use the law on the lawbreakers,rather than criminalising a whole other group of people.
"
Is knife crime in the UK on the increase? - a brief update
Newsflash 28th October 2007 - Channel 5 news;
Figures obtained under the freedom of information act show that there is a knife crime committed in the UK every 24 minutes! - in fact the figures show that there have been 5,500 serious knife crimes in the UK in just 3 months ". Sort of sums it up for me.
Gun crime is at an all time high too, they are banned, just as you would have knives banned..that worked well then didn't it. rolleyes

In Edit: I have no doubt your heart is in the right place Kent, and you genuinely want to see some of the worst excesses of the criminal elements curbed for the good of us all. However like many people you rage at the wrong thing, rage at the wielder, not the wielded.

17 May 2008

Quote by Stormwalker
Yep :thumbup: (Thanks Splen xx)
The thing with laws is that only the people that can be bothered to obey them on a particular day at a particular time will do so.
If you ban guns, people will still carry guns and if you ban knive's people will still carry knives.
TM Stormy (Who couldnt be bothered to post )

If we are talking about this country then guns are banned, unless you have a license and belong to a gun club.Hand guns yes, shotguns and section 1 firearms need a licenceIf people cannot see that the current laws are not detering people from carrying knives, then I am confused. :shock: As I have said, banning the carrying of a knife will not stop lawbreakers from doing it, the clue is in the name Kent.
Of course there are some trades people who have to carry a knife of sorts but I am not talking about those people, I am talking about the ferel youths out there in gangs who are carrying them, and threatening people with them. Mugging I think the word is. lol

We already have laws to deal with mugging, robbery and murder..is someone muggs with a knife... use the existing laws, if someone muggs with a gun... use the existing laws, if someone muggs with a fish...use the existing laws. the laws are there already.
As I said earlier in this thread about what this Government promised about tough on crime. No there not at all, there is not enough prison spaces left to send people too, so they give them a smack on their pandies. In your first post you wanted to send people to prison "no questions asked" for having a knife...where do you think you will find the space to put them all?
Knife crime is out of control and until a more effective way is used to deal with the people who carry them to commit crime, there will always be a problem. so use the law on the lawbreakers,rather than criminalising a whole other group of people.
"
Is knife crime in the UK on the increase? - a brief update
Newsflash 28th October 2007 - Channel 5 news;
Figures obtained under the freedom of information act show that there is a knife crime committed in the UK every 24 minutes! - in fact the figures show that there have been 5,500 serious knife crimes in the UK in just 3 months ". Sort of sums it up for me.
Gun crime is at an all time high too, they are banned, just as you would have knives banned..that worked well then didn't it. rolleyes

In Edit: I have no doubt your heart is in the right place Kent, and you genuinely want to see some of the worst excesses of the criminal elements curbed for the good of us all. However like many people you rage at the wrong thing, rage at the wielder, not the wielded.
Thanks for the advice. wink

18 May 2008

Quote by kentswingers777
Obviously not that draconian as if that is the case, how come that barrister had a gun in his flash house in Chelsea the other day? :shock:
And was firing it? All guns should be in a gun club locked away, out of harms way. Why do people have to have a gun in a residential house fgs? :shock:

The American gun lobby often say 'If you outlaw guns only the outlaws will have guns.'. While I don't believe it's as straightforward as that, banning things rarely works. What happens is that it makes the banned thing more attractive to the type of person the ban was aimed at. Most people wouldn't want to own a gun, and of those that would, most would want to for purposes of sport and would never use it illegally. Those that would use it illegally don't care that having a gun is itself illegal. The same is true of knives.
Knee-jerk decisions are almost always bad decisions and the UK's gun legislation is a prime example. Hungerford and Dunblane happened because the person responsible in both cases was insane, and because the police forces responsible for the issue and renewal of firearms licenses didn't do their job properly.

Quote by kentswingers777
The reason we all had knives as kids were times were different then, than to now. Obviously some people do not see we have a knife problem out there?

It isn't times that are different it's society that is different. We don't have a knife problem, we have a people problem. The element of punishment, and hence deterrent, has all but vanished in the last 50 years in favour of attempted rehabilitation and 'prisoner's rights'. Weapons are just tools, it's people that hurt other people and they are more likely to do that if there is no real meaningful deterrent to them doing so.

18 May 2008

Quote by Unc

Obviously not that draconian as if that is the case, how come that barrister had a gun in his flash house in Chelsea the other day? :shock:
And was firing it? All guns should be in a gun club locked away, out of harms way. Why do people have to have a gun in a residential house fgs? :shock:

The American gun lobby often say 'If you outlaw guns only the outlaws will have guns.'. While I don't believe it's as straightforward as that, banning things rarely works. What happens is that it makes the banned thing more attractive to the type of person the ban was aimed at. Most people wouldn't want to own a gun, and of those that would, most would want to for purposes of sport and would never use it illegally. Those that would use it illegally don't care that having a gun is itself illegal. The same is true of knives.
Knee-jerk decisions are almost always bad decisions and the UK's gun legislation is a prime example. Hungerford and Dunblane happened because the person responsible in both cases was insane, and because the police forces responsible for the issue and renewal of firearms licenses didn't do their job properly.

Quote by kentswingers777
The reason we all had knives as kids were times were different then, than to now. Obviously some people do not see we have a knife problem out there?

It isn't times that are different it's society that is different. We don't have a knife problem, we have a people problem. The element of punishment, and hence deterrent, has all but vanished in the last 50 years in favour of attempted rehabilitation and 'prisoner's rights'. Weapons are just tools, it's people that hurt other people and they are more likely to do that if there is no real meaningful deterrent to them doing so.
Exactly. lol

Which was my point about giving out tough jail terms for the people that carry knives with a view to using them. If this Government had the balls to carry out their original tough on crime bollocks, then maybe just maybe, we would not be fighting an epidemic knife culture. This Government could not run a bath!

18 May 2008

Quote by kentswingers777

Obviously not that draconian as if that is the case, how come that barrister had a gun in his flash house in Chelsea the other day? :shock:
And was firing it? All guns should be in a gun club locked away, out of harms way. Why do people have to have a gun in a residential house fgs? :shock:

The American gun lobby often say 'If you outlaw guns only the outlaws will have guns.'. While I don't believe it's as straightforward as that, banning things rarely works. What happens is that it makes the banned thing more attractive to the type of person the ban was aimed at. Most people wouldn't want to own a gun, and of those that would, most would want to for purposes of sport and would never use it illegally. Those that would use it illegally don't care that having a gun is itself illegal. The same is true of knives.
Knee-jerk decisions are almost always bad decisions and the UK's gun legislation is a prime example. Hungerford and Dunblane happened because the person responsible in both cases was insane, and because the police forces responsible for the issue and renewal of firearms licenses didn't do their job properly.

Quote by kentswingers777
The reason we all had knives as kids were times were different then, than to now. Obviously some people do not see we have a knife problem out there?

It isn't times that are different it's society that is different. We don't have a knife problem, we have a people problem. The element of punishment, and hence deterrent, has all but vanished in the last 50 years in favour of attempted rehabilitation and 'prisoner's rights'. Weapons are just tools, it's people that hurt other people and they are more likely to do that if there is no real meaningful deterrent to them doing so.
Exactly. lol

Which was my point about giving out tough jail terms for the people that carry knives with a view to using them. If this Government had the balls to carry out their original tough on crime bollocks, then maybe just maybe, we would not be fighting an epidemic knife culture. This Government could not run a bath!
If they could, they'd probably drown in it rolleyes

18 May 2008

Quote by GnV

Obviously not that draconian as if that is the case, how come that barrister had a gun in his flash house in Chelsea the other day? :shock:
And was firing it? All guns should be in a gun club locked away, out of harms way. Why do people have to have a gun in a residential house fgs? :shock:

The American gun lobby often say 'If you outlaw guns only the outlaws will have guns.'. While I don't believe it's as straightforward as that, banning things rarely works. What happens is that it makes the banned thing more attractive to the type of person the ban was aimed at. Most people wouldn't want to own a gun, and of those that would, most would want to for purposes of sport and would never use it illegally. Those that would use it illegally don't care that having a gun is itself illegal. The same is true of knives.
Knee-jerk decisions are almost always bad decisions and the UK's gun legislation is a prime example. Hungerford and Dunblane happened because the person responsible in both cases was insane, and because the police forces responsible for the issue and renewal of firearms licenses didn't do their job properly.

Quote by kentswingers777
The reason we all had knives as kids were times were different then, than to now. Obviously some people do not see we have a knife problem out there?

It isn't times that are different it's society that is different. We don't have a knife problem, we have a people problem. The element of punishment, and hence deterrent, has all but vanished in the last 50 years in favour of attempted rehabilitation and 'prisoner's rights'. Weapons are just tools, it's people that hurt other people and they are more likely to do that if there is no real meaningful deterrent to them doing so.
Exactly. lol

Which was my point about giving out tough jail terms for the people that carry knives with a view to using them. If this Government had the balls to carry out their original tough on crime bollocks, then maybe just maybe, we would not be fighting an epidemic knife culture. This Government could not run a bath!
If they could, they'd probably drown in it :roll:
We live in hope. :lol:

19 May 2008

Its common practice for young people to carry weapons of some sort... not just knives either, Ive seen a number of handmade weapons! Ive confiscated and broken loads (or handed into a police station) over the years. Majority of young people say they carry a weapon for their own safety, they fear crime just as any adult and to an extent I truly believe that.
The shops (and internet sites) that sell these under the counter knives should be the first point of call and to be given heavy fines for selling to a minor....
Stop and search is ok if your not a black youth (or for some an adult), Ive heard tell that police have to hit a certain quota for stop and searches each day... an they tend to *target* those in the minority (depending on where you live?). Yeah fine, its ok to say well if your not doing anything wrong and nothing to hide why should you mind. If your stopped heavens knows how many times a day because you fit a particular *look* or live in a certain area, you'd soon get cheesed off.
I think knives are the worst weapons, when someone gets a knife out and threatens you its all to easy to kills someone when you didnt actually intend to... a slip of the hand, a quarter of an inch in the wrong place, anger...ya dead!!
I was attacked many years ago by a guy in my own garden, he put a knife to my throat and said that if I uttered a word he would slit my throat. Everytime I opened my mouth to say something to try and calm the situation down, he dug that knife in just a little bit more... for the first time in my life I did as I was told. If I had have been alone and not concerned for a group of 10/11 yrs olds that was with me, Im not sure I would have done.
I'd had training in how to difuse potential dangerous situations and deal with aggressiveness... I thought I should be able to deal with most situations that arose as part of my job. I have on many occasions but that one was very different... it was about power and control. He certainly had that....
I dont think banning knives and other weapons is the answer. What happened to me then, would still have happened...because this guy set out that day to do what he did.
Not everyone carries a weapon with the intention of using it. It makes *some* feel safe, but potentially depending on circumstances could end in death.
Some of the young people I worked with said that knowing they carried a weapon gave them a buzz... made them feel big amongst their peers. Made me feel like using a metal detector on young people before we let any in our premises, for OUR OWN health and safety!
We (staff)decided to ask known carriers to empty pockets, take coats off, and show their ankles (most kept them tucked down the side of their socks)before they entered... and the ones that wanted to come in did no problem. We also had notices up inside saying if they have a weapon they can give it us to put away safely...or take it home, idealy dont bring one with you in the first place. It wasnt ideal but worked for us...
The issue we had was that were sending a young person/s back out on the streets knowing they had weapons....we didnt have a solution to that one!

19 May 2008

Quote by anais
Its common practice for young people to carry weapons of some sort... not just knives either, Ive seen a number of handmade weapons! Ive confiscated and broken loads (or handed into a police station) over the years. Majority of young people say they carry a weapon for their own safety, they fear crime just as any adult and to an extent I truly believe that.
The shops (and internet sites) that sell these under the counter knives should be the first point of call and to be given heavy fines for selling to a minor....
Stop and search is ok if your not a black youth (or for some an adult), Ive heard tell that police have to hit a certain quota for stop and searches each day... an they tend to *target* those in the minority (depending on where you live?). Yeah fine, its ok to say well if your not doing anything wrong and nothing to hide why should you mind. If your stopped heavens knows how many times a day because you fit a particular *look* or live in a certain area, you'd soon get cheesed off.
I think knives are the worst weapons, when someone gets a knife out and threatens you its all to easy to kills someone when you didnt actually intend to... a slip of the hand, a quarter of an inch in the wrong place, anger...ya dead!!
I was attacked many years ago by a guy in my own garden, he put a knife to my throat and said that if I uttered a word he would slit my throat. Everytime I opened my mouth to say something to try and calm the situation down, he dug that knife in just a little bit more... for the first time in my life I did as I was told. If I had have been alone and not concerned for a group of 10/11 yrs olds that was with me, Im not sure I would have done.
I'd had training in how to difuse potential dangerous situations and deal with aggressiveness... I thought I should be able to deal with most situations that arose as part of my job. I have on many occasions but that one was very different... it was about power and control. He certainly had that....
I dont think banning knives and other weapons is the answer. What happened to me then, would still have happened...because this guy set out that day to do what he did.
Not everyone carries a weapon with the intention of using it. It makes *some* feel safe, but potentially depending on circumstances could end in death.
Some of the young people I worked with said that knowing they carried a weapon gave them a buzz... made them feel big amongst their peers. Made me feel like using a metal detector on young people before we let any in our premises, for OUR OWN health and safety!
We (staff)decided to ask known carriers to empty pockets, take coats off, and show their ankles (most kept them tucked down the side of their socks)before they entered... and the ones that wanted to come in did no problem. We also had notices up inside saying if they have a weapon they can give it us to put away safely...or take it home, idealy dont bring one with you in the first place. It wasnt ideal but worked for us...
The issue we had was that were sending a young person/s back out on the streets knowing they had weapons....we didnt have a solution to that one!

You cannot have one law for one and another for someone else? The law is there for everyone no matter what the colour of your skin is surely?
I have heard the arguement that black youths are much more likely to be stopped and searched, and no doubt there is a lot of truth in that but...you cannot just stop and search one kind of person and leave another alone. How does that work? If that is the case then that is an issue that the police and Government have to sort out.
Siometimes there are never easy answers.

19 May 2008

Quote by kentswingers777
You cannot have one law for one and another for someone else? The law is there for everyone no matter what the colour of your skin is surely?
I have heard the arguement that black youths are much more likely to be stopped and searched, and no doubt there is a lot of truth in that but...you cannot just stop and search one kind of person and leave another alone. How does that work? If that is the case then that is an issue that the police and Government have to sort out.
Siometimes there are never easy answers.

I don't think Anais meant black youths shouldn't be stopped and searched, just that it was rather different for those in groups that were never, or very rarely stopped and those for whom it is a daily or weekly occurrence.
In my opinion it isn't so much that stop and search is a bad thing if carried out properly, but that the penalties for offences are often laughable.

19 May 2008

Quote by Unc

You cannot have one law for one and another for someone else? The law is there for everyone no matter what the colour of your skin is surely?
I have heard the arguement that black youths are much more likely to be stopped and searched, and no doubt there is a lot of truth in that but...you cannot just stop and search one kind of person and leave another alone. How does that work? If that is the case then that is an issue that the police and Government have to sort out.
Siometimes there are never easy answers.

I don't think Anais meant black youths shouldn't be stopped and searched, just that it was rather different for those in groups that were never, or very rarely stopped and those for whom it is a daily or weekly occurrence.
In my opinion it isn't so much that stop and search is a bad thing if carried out properly, but that the penalties for offences are often laughable.
Sorry, was half asleep when I wrote the above confused

To clarify....
Its more likey for a black youth to be stopped than a white youth. As for so called *quota and targets* I dont know if thats correct or not but was told that a few years ago. Though Im guessing targeting *groups* does happen as I had to do it in my job....
I quite agree, there is and should be one law for all. Im going on stats and things that have happened with me present in the past (Im no longer in that work, hopefully its got better). When I was working we had Stop and Search Cards in stock, especially designed for young people. It gave a run down of stop and search and the rights of those stopped. Our target group to give them to, were black youths (though we gave them out to everyone)... we were asked to target that group by those up high (local gov) because of the high percentage of black youths stopped.
I was chatting to a group of black youths recently and we happen to be chatting about stop and search. Few had parents with them. No idea how we got onto it but it was a great debate re: S&S. All this group had been stopped a number of times, either together or alone. They told me that when they get stopped now, they talk *clearly and politely* (they try to cool the accent down) and say good morning/afternoon and the majority of time are let on their way quite quickly. They think they are targeted more than their white friends and gave some good examples of experiences.
I do know white youths that have been stopped many times but majority of them have *form* or *known* in the local area, none of the above group have been in trouble.

19 May 2008

Quote by anais

You cannot have one law for one and another for someone else? The law is there for everyone no matter what the colour of your skin is surely?
I have heard the arguement that black youths are much more likely to be stopped and searched, and no doubt there is a lot of truth in that but...you cannot just stop and search one kind of person and leave another alone. How does that work? If that is the case then that is an issue that the police and Government have to sort out.
Siometimes there are never easy answers.

I don't think Anais meant black youths shouldn't be stopped and searched, just that it was rather different for those in groups that were never, or very rarely stopped and those for whom it is a daily or weekly occurrence.
In my opinion it isn't so much that stop and search is a bad thing if carried out properly, but that the penalties for offences are often laughable.
Sorry, was half asleep when I wrote the above confused

To clarify....
Its more likey for a black youth to be stopped than a white youth. As for so called *quota and targets* I dont know if thats correct or not but was told that a few years ago. Though Im guessing targeting *groups* does happen as I had to do it in my job....
I quite agree, there is and should be one law for all. Im going on stats and things that have happened with me present in the past (Im no longer in that work, hopefully its got better). When I was working we had Stop and Search Cards in stock, especially designed for young people. It gave a run down of stop and search and the rights of those stopped. Our target group to give them to, were black youths (though we gave them out to everyone)... we were asked to target that group by those up high (local gov) because of the high percentage of black youths stopped.
I was chatting to a group of black youths recently and we happen to be chatting about stop and search. Few had parents with them. No idea how we got onto it but it was a great debate re: S&S. All this group had been stopped a number of times, either together or alone. They told me that when they get stopped now, they talk *clearly and politely* (they try to cool the accent down) and say good morning/afternoon and the majority of time are let on their way quite quickly. They think they are targeted more than their white friends and gave some good examples of experiences.
I do know white youths that have been stopped many times but majority of them have *form* or *known* in the local area, none of the above group have been in trouble.
I still believe in the stop and search policy but....only if it is done fairly. Of course we all know there are police officers out there who " target " black youths but I like to think they are in the minority. I read so often the gun crime amongst black youths and many have died at the hands of guns in recent months. I believe if one stop and search reveals a weapon be it a gun or a knife, that was carried for the sole purpose of crime, then that stop and search was worth it. More importantly that stop and search COULD have saved a life.
It is the same for people who the media deem to be terrorists. The middle eastern look with a beard. Those people are now being stopped and searched. Is that right or wrong? I do not know, but any search that reveals acts of crime is worth it in my opinion.

26 May 2008

So yet another knife attack and sadly another youth has lost his life in Sidcup.
Another needless life lost because this Government have not got the bollocks to tackle it. Yes it is a people problem in that case come down hard on the people who carry knives. When are we going to realise this problem is never going to go away when the law does nothing to stop it. Sorry but this country is well fucked up.
I think this thread will keep being reserected as the deaths just keep on happening. Another family devastated by a ferel thug carrying a knife to maim or kill. I hope he gets 50 years in jail but we all know it will be about 5 years. What a joke, but in reality it is not. My heart goes out to that family today.