National ID Cards

19 Jul 2005

Quote by marmalaid
gggrrrrrrr! damn you sweetandsour! i spend the best part of a bloody afternoon typing up a cogent, meticuously well argued post about why the whole premise behind the introduction of ID cards, as they're being sold to the electorate, is plain and simple bullshit, and how they will disproportionately impact on perfectly law abiding citizens' lives in a negative way, yet offer no protection whatsoever from terrorism, fraud, identity theft, illegal immigration, or whatever else they're meant to achieve, and just as i log in to post it, i find your little essays!
didn't even save me any typing FFS! still, was a damn good couple of post and agree with every word of 'em! the 10s of billions that will be spent on this sytem would be far better and more effectively spent on strengthening the policing and security systems we already have in place, without requiring that fundamental civil liberties be sacrificed for a nonsensical political end.
bollox!
neil x x x ;)

I still know who you are!!!
rotflmao

was it the FFS and bollox that gave it away marms? thought i'd sneaked in under the radar! ;)
neil x x x ;)

19 Jul 2005

Quote by Jon
snip blah-blah
We as "citizens" , have rights in this country. If an ID card is introduced, some of those basic rights will be eroded. snip blah-blah

Postie mate, we are not citizens in this fair Isle, we are, in fact, Subjects - subjects of the monarch. This country has no written constitution, and beyond the human rights act, we have no rights!
I.D cards should be here, now - bring 'em on - if you ain't got nowt to hide, why worry about carrying them ??
Thats the very reason I put the word citizens into quotations, mainly as I didn't want to confuse the debate about subjects V citizens.
And I do have something to hide... my private life!! It's not illegal stuff, but it's MY private life, not to be stored on some computer to be used for some marketing company, or security company, or some government none-entity to trawl over.... if i commit a crime, accuse me, and find the evidence, but don't start collecting data on me when i am abiding by the law.

19 Jul 2005

Postie :-
As a postman do you not have to be Security Vetted ??
I do not know that is why I ask.
If you do is that also delving into "your private life". confused

:
Fred

19 Jul 2005

Quote by MikeNorth
I have no objection to ID cards - I lived in Denmark for a few years where everyone carries an ID card for the civil registration system, which covers all government departments, so it also serves for the health service. Nobody in Denmark, however extreme their politics, objects to the system there which runs perfectly well, and makes illegal activities more difficult.
However, one thing: the ID cards in Denmark are free, it would be unthinkable to be charging for them when they are compulsory. So bring them on, but keep them free. And i would also object to commercial firms being sold access to people's details.
Mike.

Only got this far! I was going to mention Denmark as well - one of the most relaxed countries in Europe, yet much of the social infrastucture relies on the existance of ID cards, without them, the whole thing would just fall apart. Two big uses:
1) if you are in an accident and unconscious - the hospital can use it to access your medical records and avoid mistakes in treating you
2) If you get stopped for a traffic offence - the police can use it to deduct the fine straight from your bank account. rotflmao

- not quite, but close enough!
Does anyone know the tax rate for Denmark? - Just over 50% of the Gross Domestic Product is claimed by the government in varous taxes. = Hence free ID cards, and free guaranteed free child care places for every child under school age.
It is all swings and roundabouts - we have certain areas of society where we have greater freedom than others, other countries have greater freedoms in other areas.
You can always find someone who is better off than you if you try hard enough.
lhk
Kat

19 Jul 2005

Quote by Fred aka Medic 1
Postie :-
As a postman do you not have to be Security Vetted ??
I do not know that is why I ask.
If you do is that also delving into "your private life". :
Fred

Yes Fred, i did have a security check when i became a postman, in fact i have been checked for a job I used to do that is far more stringent than the basic criminal database. But that was all with myconsent. The ID card is too open to abuse, too open to being mis-used and too many civil liberties will be taken away.

19 Jul 2005

Hi folks, I'm back again.
I don't have a problem with ID cards; I do however start to worry with the new fuel-duty arrangements that government is talking about adopting. They will know exactly where you are (in your car) as well as everything about you. ID cards on their own is fine by me, but the two together is certainly not. The fuel idea is a c**p one anyway - far too complicated.
Mac

19 Jul 2005

Quote by postie
Postie :-
As a postman do you not have to be Security Vetted ??
I do not know that is why I ask.
If you do is that also delving into "your private life". :
Fred

100% with you on this postie!
it's been argued that since most of us already posess multiple IDs, and since there are already God knows how many databases holding personal information on us, why should ID cards be a big deal. to my mind, biometric ID cards and a centralised database represent something fundamentally different in character to passports, driving licences, credit cards, and what have you.
if you look at the data already held on file, in the majority of cases that data has been provided by you voluntarily. if you want the benefit of a barclaycard, you agree that barclaycard hold certain kinds of information. if you want to travel abroad, you provide personal data to the passport office. where there is compulsion, as in police records, you know what kind of data is held, by who, and it's application and availabilty to others is limited and rigidly defined. in most cases, that data is held and used only by the appropriate agency.
ID cards are different. to be any use whatsoever as far as their stated purpose goes, they have to be compulsory, else there is even less logic to them. of course you can effectively introduce an element of compulsion even within a voluntary scheme simply by making it problematic in small ways not to possess one, but in any event, once in place, ID cards will inevitably become compulsory. not possessing the kinds of IDs currently in circulation does not criminalise you. not posessing an ID card, or being unable to produce one when required, under a compulsory scheme, does. perfectly law abiding citizens will be criminalised once they are legislated for.
you only have to look at how sus laws and stop and search have been applied to know that they disproportionately affect certain sections of society. ID cards will similiarly have a greater impact on ethnic communities and the poor, particularly in the current climate. those who argue that the law abiding have nothing to fear and it's a price worth paying typically do not bear the brunt of invasive policing and infringements on their liberty.
it is a huge step to introduce a centralised identity register with biometric IDs, and successive govts have shyed away from it, but once accepted in principle and implemented, it takes only baby steps to progressively extend the scope of the system, and add more and more data to it. we cannot know what the final shape of that database might one day be, how that data might be applied, or to who the most personal, private details will be made available.
it's not just paranoid conspiracy theorists who have real concerns that we are taking the first steps down a road leading to a police state. you only have to look at how successive govts have abolished, greatly curtailed, or plan to legislate against . . . the right to strike, the right to silence, the right to trial by a jury of your peers, the right to free and open critical debate, the right to freedom of movement and freedom of association of those not convicted of a crime . . . the list goes on. have a look at the U.S. Patriot Act to see what might be coming next. without overwhelmingly compelling reasons, i don't want us to go any further down that road, nor should we allow fundamental civil liberties to be so casually tossed aside.
neil

19 Jul 2005

Eloquently put Neil; you got it out in the end.
But, do you really think that you should be spewing this kind of propoganda and scaremongering? (Or should that be voicing informed, reasoned, opinion?)
Either way, well said.
Sour.

19 Jul 2005

i think they are a great idea mybe this would stop so much fraud, i think that they should be impelmented, people should look at root cause of most of the reasons some criminals arnt caught and thats because people dont have info on everyone ie-finger prints etc...

19 Jul 2005

Quote by SweetandSour
Eloquently put Neil; you got it out in the end.
But, do you really think that you should be spewing this kind of propoganda and scaremongering? (Or should that be voicing informed, reasoned, opinion?)
Either way, well said.
Sour.

yep . . . i'd be the first to admit that t'is all loony left socialist worker bollox! ;) cept of course even mrs thatcher didn't dare go down this road, and God knows she tried, so maybe i'm suddenly on the right wing? :shock: dunno

alas, i suspect we are voices crying in the wilderness, and that whole "something must be done" thing will see this sail through parliament, and one day we might wake up and realise it's too damn late to object to it! mad

:x :x
neil x x x ;)

20 Jul 2005

The id card does one thing. It makes it very convenient to have all the details about you in one easily accessible format. This means that all this information is already available. So its too late to worry about liberties etc.
Being profiled by the available data would reveal how similar and unoriginal most of us are. We all tend to pigeon hole each other using rule of thumb values anyway, so there is only a marginal gain in making the process scientific.
It would be entirely redundant to incorporate into our life. But if it is, there is nothing to fear from it.

20 Jul 2005

currently,I refuse to register my mobile phone,,my internet account is not in my name,I do not hold any store cards or credit cards,I do not use internet banking or any internet pay-service,my phone is ex-directory,I try to keep within the law and live an honorable life,,I have fought for queen and country, and still would if it came down to it,,(but I wouldn't lift a finger for a politician,(well maybe one particular finger)!) and it just seems to me that the british people in general seem to have a short memory and a certain amount of disrespect for the freedoms our forefathers fought for over the last century,,is all that irrelevant? does no-one remember adolf whassisname? it makes me sick that so many are prepared to roll over and and take whatever the man in the suit thrusts at them..well not me chummy if they come to try and make me have an id card they had better come armed!!!,,oh and by the way,if you are a british subject loyal to the monarch,,and the government wants to get rid of the royal family,,doesn't that make the government your enemy????..and the day they try to gat rid of the monarchy will come,so pick your sides ladies and gentlemen because there will be a (un)civil war and I know who I'll be fighting for!!
father fought for the other side in ww2 ,(italy), he lost 2 of his brothers and his father,but I am proud of him because he stood by his convictions and was an honourable man who fought for his beliefs,,those of you who's parents,grandparents etc fought for your freedom,sometimes giving up their lives to ensure your freedom,dishonour their memories by agreeing to give it away so easily,and don't deserve to carry their names mad

20 Jul 2005

Godwin's Law invoked! mad

:x :x

does no-one remember adolf whassisname?

Drives me potty!
rolleyes

20 Jul 2005

Quote by z3d
currently,I refuse to register my mobile phone,,my internet account is not in my name,I do not hold any store cards or credit cards,I do not use internet banking or any internet pay-service,my phone is ex-directory,I try to keep within the law and live an honorable life,,I have fought for queen and country, and still would if it came down to it,,(but I wouldn't lift a finger for a politician,(well maybe one particular finger)!) and it just seems to me that the british people in general seem to have a short memory and a certain amount of disrespect for the freedoms our forefathers fought for over the last century,,is all that irrelevant? does no-one remember adolf whassisname? it makes me sick that so many are prepared to roll over and and take whatever the man in the suit thrusts at them..well not me chummy if they come to try and make me have an id card they had better come armed!!!

umm, is not the fact that you are free to opt out of all these things an indication of just how much freedom you are enjoying?
Have you not understood that the most important freedom in the freedom of choice - and that by exercising that choice, you have totally refuted your own argument?
lhk
Kat
P.S.