Pope John Paul II

4 Apr 2005

Quote by HungryP
I know his death has upset quite a few people and I guess its a shame the old guy died.
However, he could have done alot to improve life in the third world by promoting the use of condoms. Fewer children born in to poverty and reduction in the spread of aids.
Not trying to offend Roman Catholics just a personal point of view.

I agree on all points above. He was clearly a special man who has touched so many lives, & I would not wish to upset any Catholics with my views.
However, every time it is said that there are over a billion Catholics in the world, I can't help thinking that there would be a lot fewer if the Pope had not been so entrenched in his views against birth control.
But far worse than that, are the lies put about by the Vatican, as described in the story that came to light in 2003:

The Vatican actively promotes the view that use of condoms is ineffective for birth control, & that condoms encourage the spread of AIDS. The arguments used to back this up are based on bogus science, & I find that to be utterly inexcusable.
In the US, senior executives from tobacco companies were successfully prosecuted for perjury when they claimed that tobacco does not cause cancer. What the Vatican says about the use of condoms is just as bad, in my view.
well, there's been some claims that the vatican are behind vague rumours that condoms actually cause aids in some way in africa.
but . . . . if it's an article of faith that contraception is against god, then if you define yourself as catholic, you have to accept that. it just goes with the territory, simple as. not to say you can't opt to use contraception, so long as you confess it as a sin, and are truly penitint. that at least allows for personal freedom. it's kinda the same article of faith that says covetting thy neighbours ox, or murdering someone in the street, is a mortal sin. if you're of the catholic faith, it's a fact, if you're not, it ain't? it's a kinda non-argument. dunno

course you could argue there's no basis in scripture for it, same as there ain't no basis in scripture that The Blessed Virgin was conceived immaculately herself, or that Jesus had a thing about women priests or homosexuals, but you should prolly convert to anglicanism if you find yaself drawn to those little arguments! ;)
neil x x x ;)

4 Apr 2005

Made a bit of a mess of that other Royal Wedding. Not Ken and Derdrie, the other one.
Pope Idol sounds like a great idea, but would anyone want a job for life?
John
:cry:

4 Apr 2005

Quote by neilinleeds
I know his death has upset quite a few people and I guess its a shame the old guy died.
However, he could have done alot to improve life in the third world by promoting the use of condoms. Fewer children born in to poverty and reduction in the spread of aids.
Not trying to offend Roman Catholics just a personal point of view.

I agree on all points above. He was clearly a special man who has touched so many lives, & I would not wish to upset any Catholics with my views.
However, every time it is said that there are over a billion Catholics in the world, I can't help thinking that there would be a lot fewer if the Pope had not been so entrenched in his views against birth control.
But far worse than that, are the lies put about by the Vatican, as described in the story that came to light in 2003:

The Vatican actively promotes the view that use of condoms is ineffective for birth control, & that condoms encourage the spread of AIDS. The arguments used to back this up are based on bogus science, & I find that to be utterly inexcusable.
In the US, senior executives from tobacco companies were successfully prosecuted for perjury when they claimed that tobacco does not cause cancer. What the Vatican says about the use of condoms is just as bad, in my view.
well, there's been some claims that the vatican are behind vague rumours that condoms actually cause aids in some way in africa.
but . . . . if it's an article of faith that contraception is against god, then if you define yourself as catholic, you have to accept that. it just goes with the territory, simple as. not to say you can't opt to use contraception, so long as you confess it as a sin, and are truly penitint. that at least allows for personal freedom. it's kinda the same article of faith that says covetting thy neighbours ox, or murdering someone in the street, is a mortal sin. if you're of the catholic faith, it's a fact, if you're not, it ain't? it's a kinda non-argument. dunno

course you could argue there's no basis in scripture for it, same as there ain't no basis in scripture that The Blessed Virgin was conceived immaculately herself, or that Jesus had a thing about women priests or homosexuals, but you should prolly convert to anglicanism if you find yaself drawn to those little arguments! ;)
neil x x x ;)
The thing about Catholicism, if you belive is it's all or nothing - you can't pick and choose like a buffet. I belive some bits of Catolic dogma is bullshit, ergo no longer Catholic which leads to a very simplistic QED

4 Apr 2005

The thing about Catholicism, if you belive is it's all or nothing - you can't pick and choose like a buffet. I belive some bits of Catolic dogma is bullshit, ergo no longer Catholic which leads to a very simplistic QED

jim, that's my point. if you can't accept what you see as dogma, then you are no longer catholic, in the strictest sense of the word. christian maybe, but catholic, no. to define yourself as catholic implies acceptance of the church's teachings, all of them, unless of course you just happen to be catholic cos your parents had you baptised as one.
if it's a Ttrue faith, and based on the inspired word of God, then no you can't choose what suits you as and when. it IS all or nothing.
course i had the benefit of a catholic education, despite my heretical C of E origins, and t'is my belief that the Pope is infallible, being chosen by God and filled with the Holy Spirit.
consequently, the earth i live on is flat, and the Sun travels round it, and the stars are all fixed in space! Galileo should really have been put to the stake and burned. :P
n x x x ;)

4 Apr 2005

Quote by smokerjim
The thing about Catholicism, if you belive is it's all or nothing - you can't pick and choose like a buffet. I belive some bits of Catolic dogma is bullshit, ergo no longer Catholic which leads to a very simplistic QED

Oh yes, I'm aware of that, & for those who choose to believe, good luck to them. Its the poor & uneducated of the world who, because of the society in to which they are born, have no other option but to believe in Catholic doctrine. Because of the Catholic doctrine, they are much more likely to suffer from AIDS, or live in a country that suffers from a rapidly expanding population.

5 Apr 2005

and have already been bought, no sites up as yet though.

5 Apr 2005

Quote by HungryP
Oh yes, I'm aware of that, & for those who choose to believe, good luck to them. Its the poor & uneducated of the world who, because of the society in to which they are born, have no other option but to believe in Catholic doctrine. Because of the Catholic doctrine, they are much more likely to suffer from AIDS, or live in a country that suffers from a rapidly expanding population.

I don't get that dunno

Lots of love, hugs and kisses
Little
XXX

5 Apr 2005

HungryP
With all respect for your views and the views of the BBC, I believe that the words of the Catholic religious leaders may have been misinterpreted.
When one says 'condoms cause AIDS' one can mean that the availability of easy contraception causes people to fornicate uncontrollably therefore increasing their exposure to danger and sometimes condoms do break... so what if that one time you were happening to be doing it with an infected person?
When a nun tells her choir master who has is HIV + not to use condoms, perhaps what she is saying is that it is better to abstain at all lest he runs into an accident and infects his wife.
It is easy to take someone's words and pick and choose what suits you best to support your views. We were taught to do this at my American University. Well actually we were told NOT to do it but in fact were shown the way to write up a quick essay without examining all the facts and just as long as it sounded plausible and people were not going to open up the books to check our quotes we were alright. Same goes for journalism, unfortunately.

5 Apr 2005

Quote by Tania
HungryP
With all respect for your views and the views of the BBC, I believe that the words of the Catholic religious leaders may have been misinterpreted.
When one says 'condoms cause AIDS' one can mean that the availability of easy contraception causes people to fornicate uncontrollably therefore increasing their exposure to danger and sometimes condoms do break... so what if that one time you were happening to be doing it with an infected person?
When a nun tells her choir master who has is HIV + not to use condoms, perhaps what she is saying is that it is better to abstain at all lest he runs into an accident and infects his wife.
It is easy to take someone's words and pick and choose what suits you best to support your views. We were taught to do this at my American University. Well actually we were told NOT to do it but in fact were shown the way to write up a quick essay without examining all the facts and just as long as it sounded plausible and people were not going to open up the books to check our quotes we were alright. Same goes for journalism, unfortunately.

Perhaps one needs to convey one's message more eloquently then. wink

Just one thing to since we're on religion confused

5 Apr 2005

Hi ,
Excuse this being short , Tania makes a very good point about interpretation .
There is still a worrying amount of myth floating around concerning HIV/Aids.
Despite there being very little current debate - (except post Pope) - It is always a good thing to bring to peoples attention.
Have a great day all. biggrin

5 Apr 2005

Quote by Tania
HungryP
When one says 'condoms cause AIDS' one can mean that the availability of easy contraception causes people to fornicate uncontrollably therefore increasing their exposure to danger and sometimes condoms do break... so what if that one time you were happening to be doing it with an infected person?
When a nun tells her choir master who has is HIV + not to use condoms, perhaps what she is saying is that it is better to abstain at all lest he runs into an accident and infects his wife.

With all due respect Tania, I think you missed the point. The main reason that HIV has spread spread so rapidly in African countries is because of unprotected sex. If people were using condoms more, then the spread of HIV would have been slower. Maybe there would have been the odd breakage, but if there were fewer HIV infections in the first place, the chance of getting HIV would have been next to zero.
If the nun was trying to tell the choir master to abstain, wouldn't it be better to say exactly that, rather than "dont use condoms".
Sorry if I sound harsh, but HIV is still a major killer and in countries like Botswana (Catholic country) the HIV rate is about 37%. That is more than 1 in 3 people you will meet in the street.
So people who go around spouting crap which inevitably leads to the premature death of people, especially children I can't respect. Not using condoms has cost countless lives of real people. Maybe tthe pope did do some good things (I don't know), but that doesn't make up for the death of millions.
Simple as.

5 Apr 2005

Veejay
The spread of AIDS in Africa was a criminal act of soldiers infected with HIV one woman after the other, haven't you heard? The people there did not know AIDS before that but they will be suffering for many years to come because of that. I am not sure exactly which army did which to which civilians but the name Angola springs to mind off hand, I might be wrong, but I am sure someone else on this forum will remember and clarify who it was.
The Church never told people to go and and infect others. Let us not make this into a religious battle.

5 Apr 2005

Quote by Silk and Big G
We are in soooooooo much trouble when the Catholics come in!!! :? :? :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

Dont worry they wont be in til after all the BDSM nights are over mate .

Speaking of which I've seen a fantastic rubber nuns outfit!
seriously though, I was brought up and forced to be catholic until I turned into the opinionated rebel that I became in my teens. I don't agree with some of the teachings of the church and never will, and never will I go back to church (unless it's a funeral or wedding)
The thing that made me annoyed recently was that children christened catholic get free travel to the catholic comprehensive school in my area, while the ones that aren't have to pay almost Â£200 a year at the start of the school year.

5 Apr 2005

Quote by Tania
Veejay
The spread of AIDS in Africa was a criminal act of soldiers infected with HIV one woman after the other, haven't you heard? The people there did not know AIDS before that but they will be suffering for many years to come because of that. I am not sure exactly which army did which to which civilians but the name Angola springs to mind off hand, I might be wrong, but I am sure someone else on this forum will remember and clarify who it was.
The Church never told people to go and and infect others. Let us not make this into a religious battle.

Thanks for that, Tania, I never realised that a third of the African continent, male and female, was by soldiers. That's truely awful.
Get off the grass Tania, that may or may not have been contributary, but no way is it the only cause as you postulate.
Chris

5 Apr 2005

Quote by Tania
The Church never told people to go and and infect others.
Let us not make this into a religious battle.

I think it already is. Is either of you Catholic? If not, what's the point of arguing for/against a religion neither of you practises?

5 Apr 2005

And i thought the spread of aids was caused by ignorance......but if its easier to blame soldiers women it's got to be true......

5 Apr 2005

Hi
They have asked me 2 b the next pope
Tbone the1st pope

5 Apr 2005

Quote by little
because of the society in to which they are born, have no other option but to believe in Catholic doctrine.

I don't get that dunno

Litlte, my point is that people with little education in developing countries with a strong tradtition of Catholic worship are less likely to be able to "choose" to be Catholic. Also, in such countries it can difficult, if not impossible, to acquire condoms. confused

5 Apr 2005

Quote by Tania
When one says 'condoms cause AIDS' one can mean that the availability of easy contraception causes people to fornicate uncontrollably therefore increasing their exposure to danger and sometimes condoms do break... so what if that one time you were happening to be doing it with an infected person?

The Vatican claims that the use of condoms promotes the spread of AIDS, because they have a theory that the cells are smaller than the microscopic holes in the rubber material....... & therefore the infection can get though. Trouble is they rely on bogus science for this.

Quote by Tania
It is easy to take someone's words and pick and choose what suits you best to support your views.

The claims put forward by the Vatican were examined in a very thorough BBC documentary last year, where they consulted various independent experts for their views. Tthe experts said there was some truth in what the Vatican were claiming, such as the problems of condoms coming off during sex or splittling. However some claims, like the virus being capable of getting through tiny holes in the rubber, were said to be completely untrue with no basis in fact at all.
My point is that the Vatican seem to be prepared to stop at nothing to persuade people to stop using condoms. Many Catholic priests undoubtedly believe what they are telling people about condoms, probably because they have heard it from people they trust. However a lie has to start somewhere, & these particular lies seem to have originated in the Vatican.

5 Apr 2005

OK I found some links. I was wrong about the country. It was not Angola but Rwanda. There were about 250,000 women by soldiers about a decade ago. Of those that survived, 70% were infected with HIV. Do some simple multiplication... infected women + non infected men, infected women > infected babies. Don't think the Pope had anything to do with this.
Here are some links:

As Rwanda marks the 10th anniversary of the butchering of almost a million Tutsis and moderate Hutus, activists are calling on rich countries to fund free antiretroviral treatments (ART) for women and girls infected with HIV/AIDS in the genocide.
Hutu ringleaders extorted militiamen to Tutsi women in a deliberate plan to use AIDS as a weapon that could go on killing long after they had murdered their other victims with clubs and machetes.
Massacres also led to HIV infection as survivors hidden under body piles had their wounds exposed to othersâ€™ blood.

5 Apr 2005

You can't blame the spread of AIDS entirely on that. :shock:

5 Apr 2005

Quote by Tania
OK I found some links. I was wrong about the country. It was not Angola but Rwanda. There were about 250,000 women by soldiers about a decade ago. Of those that survived, 70% were infected with HIV. Do some simple multiplication... infected women + non infected men, infected women > infected babies. Don't think the Pope had anything to do with this.

Errr well no, but there are (as I mentioned earlier) over a billion Catholics in the world. I don't know how many Catholics live in Rwanda, but I think most of them live elswhere, particularly in South & Central America. Shocking as these statistics are, you are only talking about one country.

5 Apr 2005

Quote by Tania
OK I found some links. I was wrong about the country. It was not Angola but Rwanda. There were about 250,000 women by soldiers about a decade ago. Of those that survived, 70% were infected with HIV. Do some simple multiplication... infected women + non infected men, infected women > infected babies. Don't think the Pope had anything to do with this.

is a serious war-crime. On other (non-swinging) forums I spend alot of time speaking against such misdeeds so I wouldn't want you to get the impression I take lightly. There is a wonderful book called "Against Our Will: Men, Women and " Its by Susan Brownmiller and documents in war over the last century and all across the globe. Its a truly horrific book and not for anyone who gets upset. I was left quite distraught after reading afew chapters.
However war crimes in Rwanda alone have not contributed to the spread of HIV in Botswana. Rwanda is in the North/Central Africa while Botswana is in the South/Eastern Africa. Now Botswana is the country with the highest HIV rate in the world (37%).
Like I said, is a disgusting act and rapists caught (with positive forensics/testimonials) should be burnt alive in my opinion, ( just my opinion). But the of women in Rwanda should not be used as an excuse for the spread of HIV.
I am not a Catholic, or religious, but feel its my duty to highlight issues where people suffer needlessly. Female circumcision is another cultural practice amongst certain African tribes that I despise (but thats another story).
I'm not having a go at you, but when innocent people suffer, it makes me mad.

5 Apr 2005

going cheap
Small White People Carrier, Disabled Access, Low Mileage, one carefu owner
Call Rome 778 4547